Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hi there!

Not that Robotech was written with Rifts spells in mind....

Robotech is Part of the Megaversal system... "compatible with the entire Palladium books Megaverse.."

Yet, the battlepod does not begins to fly backwards, especially in space when its particle guns are fired.

So, either it is the violation of Newtons 3rd law, or the large chunks of evaporated armor create an explosion, which CAN knock down a mecha..
...except when the beam does not disintegrate the armor, due to a spell.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=101950&start=250#p2363818

delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.

not Energy Damage, nuff said.

[KLM]

Warning: User Warned For Trolling. -NMI

Hi there!

but RUE which was Published After DB2 didn't amend the Spell to make the Spell give the Same Immunities. Looks to be something Special to the shadow bolt, not a common ability of the Spell, or else Kevin would have added it to Rifts Ultimate Addition which was Published Afterwards.
and at the Same Time... Particle Cannons aren't listed... Just Particle Beams....

+

Zentradie Don't use Fold or Space Fold Drives.. But Hyperspace-Fold Drives...

+

as noted above, its not Parcialce beam Cannons... its Particle Cannons... Different weapon. PBC = Energy:: PC= Kinetic.

+

delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.

not Energy Damage, nuff said.

Oh well, Mr Rules Lawyer...

Lets see:
First, the spell:

The spell caster can make himself impervious to all form of energy (...)Physical attacks (...) do normal damage.

By following Your logic, the spell does not rule out kinetic energy, but physical attacks.

Second, Robotech 2nd was published after DMB2 and RUE, so Kevin would have added, that the weapon does damage on targets
immune to energy, since the game is "compatible with the entire Palladium books Megaverse.."

- - -
Have you found out the reason why the 3Galaxies have up to 400 years early warning? Because I wrote it down a few times.

Of course you can keep your promise earlier, or include me and "Facts" on your ignore list.

Adios
KLM

[Colonel Wolfe]

By following Your logic, the spell does not rule out kinetic energy,

delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.

Kinetic Damage =/= Energy.

[NMI]

By following Your logic, the spell does not rule out kinetic energy,

delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.

Kinetic Damage =/= Energy.

However, throughout the books there has always been a separation of "Kinetic" and "Energy" based attacks.

[jaymz]

By following Your logic, the spell does not rule out kinetic energy,

delivers a massive amount of kinetic, armor piercing damage.

Kinetic Damage =/= Energy.

However, throughout the books there has always been a separation of "Kinetic" and "Energy" based attacks.

So in other words NMI, in your opinion a kinetic attack is not an energy attack thus Robotech particle weapons (specified as kinetic attacks) wold not be subject to the protection from impervious to energy?

[Hystrix]

Keep saying this, but this is the current state - up to 400 years before the invasion.

where is the 400 years comming form Again?

Its from DB13, where the Golgan Republik has a device that can call themselves 400 years in the future. They've used it to 'borrow' technology from there future selves. The argumant is that they will use said device to warn the other empires in the 3G. Problem being that the Golgans don't trust everyone else and wouldn't share this tech even if they DID know of an upcoming attack...but it's totally out of character for that race... just sayin'

[Nightmask]

Keep saying this, but this is the current state - up to 400 years before the invasion.

where is the 400 years comming form Again?

Its from DB13, where the Golgan Republik has a device that can call themselves 400 years in the future. They've used it to 'borrow' technology from there future selves. The argumant is that they will use said device to warn the other empires in the 3G. Problem being that the Golgans don't trust everyone else and wouldn't share this tech even if they DID know of an upcoming attack...but it's totally out of character for that race... just sayin'

I imagine it has more to do with simply not wanting anyone else finding out that they can get future information like that. They'd have every empire and independent agent around trying to steal the technology for themselves. Something that would provide such incredible advance warning and technological edge would have to be kept secret for their survival and since they'd have to reveal its existence before anyone would believe a 'Hey everyone this evil alien race is going to pop up in a few centuries we should get ready for it' warning it's simply not worthwhile. Which of course is how that particular device is nerfed so it has little to no game impact short of a 'we got a warning that we'll ALL be exterminated and have no choice but to reveal it now to survive ourselves' situation.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Keep saying this, but this is the current state - up to 400 years before the invasion.

where is the 400 years comming form Again?

Its from DB13, where the Golgan Republik has a device that can call themselves 400 years in the future. They've used it to 'borrow' technology from there future selves. The argumant is that they will use said device to warn the other empires in the 3G. Problem being that the Golgans don't trust everyone else and wouldn't share this tech even if they DID know of an upcoming attack...but it's totally out of character for that race... just sayin'

I found the info, and it even say the information is sometimes useless, or incorrect. and its a one-way conversation, would be sad if the "Golgan's" in the future are all 10m tall, on Giant Green ships.... sending back bad intel to idiots in the past...

[Nightmask]

Keep saying this, but this is the current state - up to 400 years before the invasion.

where is the 400 years comming form Again?

Its from DB13, where the Golgan Republik has a device that can call themselves 400 years in the future. They've used it to 'borrow' technology from there future selves. The argumant is that they will use said device to warn the other empires in the 3G. Problem being that the Golgans don't trust everyone else and wouldn't share this tech even if they DID know of an upcoming attack...but it's totally out of character for that race... just sayin'

I found the info, and it even say the information is sometimes useless, or incorrect. and its a one-way conversation, would be sad if the "Golgan's" in the future are all 10m tall, on Giant Green ships.... sending back bad intel to idiots in the past...

Which wouldn't happen because they'd surely destroy the device rather than let 30' tall aliens get ahold of it.

[KLM]

Hi there!

I imagine it has more to do with simply not wanting anyone else finding out that they can get future information like that. They'd have every empire and independent agent around trying to steal the technology for themselves. Something that would provide such incredible advance warning and technological edge would have to be kept secret for their survival and since they'd have to reveal its existence before anyone would believe a 'Hey everyone this evil alien race is going to pop up in a few centuries we should get ready for it' warning it's simply not worthwhile.

I see it otherwise.

If these two pieces of information (invasion is coming and Golgans get advanced - and still, it is debatable that the Zentraedi tech is
more advanced - technology) leaks out, probably even by Golgans, how long will it take for a Noro, a Royal Kreeghor or an Altess with
Clairvoyance to check this out? The UWW can even use the Oracle spell.

Yepp, these powers have a margin of error, however, using it multiple times by multiple users reduces it.

Which of course is how that particular device is nerfed so it has little to no game impact short of a 'we got a warning that we'll ALL be exterminated and have no choice but to reveal it now to survive ourselves' situation.

This might mean that the 2nd Golgan Republik control much of the 3Galaxies Biospheres.

Also, please note - see Sylnor cmd. ship in DMB13 - that techological documents can be faxed back.

I found the info, and it even say the information is sometimes useless, or incorrect. and its a one-way conversation, would be sad if the "Golgan's" in the future are all 10m tall, on Giant Green ships.... sending back bad intel to idiots in the past...

While I respect your opinion, due to the text and the existence of the aforemention Sylnor ship, I find it undefendable.

Also, if you check out DMB5, there ARE a few "member" races in the Republik, which are trusted (and I mentioned at least
one of them), but the fact that the xenophobic SDC Golgans allow the MDC Zebuloids not just pilot their starfighters but
even the Zebuloids "man" the point defense guns on their ships, tells a long tale in itself about Golgan xenophobia.
And of course finally they are dependent on the planet Mekanik (which, as it look like pales the construction facilities of
at least a Robotech factory sattellite. Use the robots as a Neumann-device...).

Finally, they have their Ultorvians, the race with vast magical abilities (yepp, this includes the aforemnetiond Oracle spell)
so double-checking the "grandsons" on the antitelephone is granted.

Also, by your opinion now the Zentraedi have 400 years of advantage, by a technology, they do not posess, which is strange for
a race, who cannot repair their own ships.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

Actually the protector is about the size of the SDF-1 with more MDC than the New Edition Zentraedi Flagship.

Versus a New Edition Zentraedi Destroyer (Standard Battleship/Ship of the line) a protector has 3 times the MDC and the main guns do triple the damage but are still way over matched for range by a factor of 300+ not to mention their fighter comlement woudl be outnumbered about 20-1.

Just playing a bit of devil's advocate in regards to the Protector in as much as it isn't AS bad as some may think but it IS still outclassed overall.

This issue needs a bit attention.

1,: Speeds are way bugged both in the 2nd ed. Robotech and especially in 3G stuff.
1a, Robotech 2nd, Macross SB lists Gnerl fighter pods for 18M space speed, and SDF-1 as having an orbital cruising speed of 23+ Mach. Not to mention, that the description lacks veritech space speeds. So, Zentraedi fighter cannot catch the SDF-1...
2a, 3G stuff list - for example - Protector for 9Machs. Frankly, Low Earth Orbit is 22+ Mach, thought measuring in Machs is "funny" is vacuum... Now, this would mean that the mighty
battleships cannot escape from a planet's gravity?

2, Ranges:
2a, 2nd ed. Zentraedi guns cannot possibly bombard Macross Island from Lunar orbit, since their range is about 5% of this requirement.
2b, The Protector cannot enter atmospheres, yet is "fluffed" to be able to devastate planets. What is more, their main gun is listed for
atmospheric bombardment (with ridicoulus blast radius), with an atmospheric range of 48 km. Frankly, the mesosphere extends to 80 km from
surface, but even the stratosphere extends to about 50 kms...

2c, Still, if we keep listed RPG speeds as they are, from the FTL combat section of DMB13, and the description of the Aranea class interdiction
radius of 48 km, 3Galactic ships can "jump" on targets with this precision (i.e. within a few dozen kilometers) , making range advantage a
moot point (except in a gravity well of a planet).

3, Combat values (from range of 80-160 km, see 2c,)
3a, The T-Salan desroyer is listed for
mass: 39,5 Mt
MDC: 25+25+30 thousand MDC for the 3 section
Damage from guns is (on average) 3300 from the main P-beams, and twice per melee 13.200 MDC from converging beams (29.700 per melee)
Fighter and PA complement is 1600 units (thought about 600 of them are true fighters)

3b, The Protector is listed for
mass: 15,5 million tons
MDC: 90.000 MDC in shields, 250.000 MDC in main body
Damage from guns is 21.000 on average, twice per melee. (which is 42.000 on average).
It carries a mechanised brigade of 2500 with tanks, IFVs and robots/PA and 96 dedicated space assault units.

So, unless the Protector is sitting in a gravity well, odds are, that it can face 2 Zentraedi destroyers, jump in, cripple at least one of them (with a bit of luck
taking out both ship's engine section) and leave without shields depleted. This also presumes, that both Zentraedi ships can fire all their anti-ship guns.
From ranges below 80 kms, the "close in" weapons and missiles make calculations a bit more difficult and make missile volleys prime contributors, but the
full missile damage for the Protector is over 240.000 MD and it has several tertiary anti-ship guns with 10-16 mile range, which can do a further 7.400 damage
per melee on average, a bit more, if both targets are within their range.
Then there is the "bonuses to hit" table, which gives +4 to the Protector (as it is "better" from Macross II and Robotech 1st similar tables) targeting sections
of the Zentraedi ships.

Finally, the fighter complement - Zentraedi carry "universal" mecha (the Regult), making their capacity in space impressive.

Planetside however they the numbers are more even (3200 vs. 2600), and in each category the 3Galactic stuff has more MDC, generally
do more damage and have longer range. The only exception is that the Zentraedi have autododge for flying units, but only the "female" PA
has "inertia compensation system".
Also, Zentraedi lack FTL fighters.

This is strange, because 3Galactic fighters (and flying PA/robots) are - as a rule - use CG engines (maybe with a booster), which eliminates
G-force stress on pilots (as per DMB13, page 20) - which might be a reason to assign some bonuses.
Also, 3G fighter craft are able to jam enemy radar/ladar, plus PA is small by Zentraedi standards (about the size of the Zentraedi female PA's
faceplate, which requires a called shot with a -4).

The Silverhawk, which is the premier space PA of the CAF is 450 kg (plus maybe pilot?) and has 420 MDC. Its main gun is a triple barreled
canon, with
- laser (2d4*10 MD 3050m range, doubled in space)
- P-beam (3d6*10 MD, 610m range, double in space)
- grenade launcher
plus carries 16 mini missiles (can be smart missiles, damage d6*10) and forearm rail guns (5d6 MD) and PS50

The Zentraedi female PA is 45+ tons with pilot, has 290 MDC, with impressive load of mini-missiles (126 missiles, volleys of max 12, damage d4*10),
grenade launcher (4d8*10 MD for 10 bursts), an dual forearm P-beam (d6*10 combined), the latter two has a range of 1219 meters. PS 48.

With all this, Zentraedi technical superiority is questionable.

Adios
KLM

[Nightmask]

I suppose I should point out that escape velocity is the speed an unassisted object must be going at to enter into orbit or head off into space, any object capable of accelerating even a fraction over acceleration due to gravity will eventually be able to leave the surface and enter into space. Vehicles with anti-gravity and even power armor like the Silverhawk can get into orbit just fine because of their ability to warp gravity and accelerate at a rate above that of earth's ability to pull it back.

[KLM]

Hi there!

I suppose I should point out that escape velocity is the speed an unassisted object must be going at to enter into orbit or head off into space, any object capable of accelerating even a fraction over acceleration due to gravity will eventually be able to leave the surface and enter into space. Vehicles with anti-gravity and even power armor like the Silverhawk can get into orbit just fine because of their ability to warp gravity and accelerate at a rate above that of earth's ability to pull it back.

True. However, with the current speed designations, a Silverhawk (M12, 14,700 kmh) cannot catch the ISS which
orbits over our head at this very moment with an average speed of 27.743,8 kmh (as per Wikipedia). The Female Power
armor with her speed of M15, ie. 18.480 kmh is the same.

OK, very are talking about imaginary spacecraft, but this is irrealistic for a military stuff used for over a century
(or even millenia I guess in the case of the Zentraedi) by an FTL capable intergalactic superpowers.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

So in other words NMI, in your opinion a kinetic attack is not an energy attack thus Robotech particle weapons (specified as kinetic attacks) wold not be subject to the protection from impervious to energy?

A question worth of attention.

Adios
KLM

[gaby]

You have to think about a few things like do they stay as one big Fleet or Split-up?

Where do they arrive in Corkscrew?ThunderCloud or Anvil?

Well if I use the Zentraedi in my game,I but a 30 light year limited for ever fold jump and a week or more rechanged time.

Who face them first will have a big effect,like say the TGE,s Dominion fleet,Zentraedi will win but they can't replace the losses like the TGE can.