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- Speed: a bit too fast for other, "canon" designs.
Remember M20 is the speed for most craft, according
to DMB2, that threatens the ship to burn out its engines.
Same for FTL.

actually, DB2 lists the higher end for CG as mach 25, and even then it has no mention of effect on the drive. presumably you can build even faster drives, it would just be expensive.

there is rules for 'overdrive' type effects where you can push your ship up to 3x it's listed safe speeds at the chance of burning out your engine. that may have been what you were thinking of.

as for FTL, i'd hope that an FTL drive could do better than mach 20.
DB2 gives 10ly/h as the upper limit.
i can drop the FTl down a tad, but most fighters are about 2-4 ly/h, and this one is supposed to be faster and have more powerful engines.

- MDC - for its 20 ton, it has less MDC than the Scorpion, with
its cca. 6 tons. But maybe it is all right, since the desing sacrificed
protection for agilitiy (so a few more bonuses should come
handy, like dogfight or extra dodge when using "afterburner")
Or substandard materials were used to cut price... ?

how much of that 20 tons is engine, powerplant, booster, and fuel?
plus the scorpion would be made out of military grade materials and armor, while this craft would be using stuff closer to high end civilian grade.

- Price: Even when using substandard materials for armor,
to save costs, the powerfull engines (but sublight and FTL)
in themselves are costing a fortune.

that i can fix, i wasn't sure about how expensive it would likely be. 10 mil seemed pretty high.

would 60 million work?

Darkmax wrote:

taalismn wrote:

Darkmax wrote:A TY Upgrade version of the Viper.

Let's see.... Venom?.... Fangs... that's been used... Sabretooth....How about K9-2?.... the first rendition being K9-1.

DeathTongue.....
Old 'Bloom County' joke....

What's a "Bloom County"?

Bloom County
Deathtöngue.

Darkmax wrote:I know Scott Kurtz... we have his comic strip here every Sunday... But as with everything in Singapore, it is non-political in nature...

consider yourself lucky, i stopped reading PvP because of the rare political jab he sticks in as filler.


i like the idea of naming the TY upgrade of the 'viper' the Deathtongue, it seems to fit.

on my fighter, i'm surprised no one commented on the Lupus and Latrans names.
sometimes obscure referances aren't worth the effort.

Darkmax wrote:Lupus refers to wolf... not sure what Latrans means. I thought you did it on purpose.

Lupus means wolf in latin. Canis lupus is the scientific name for wolves, and literally means wolf-dog.
Latrans is from Canis latrans, the scientific name for Coyote's.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Darkmax wrote:Lupus refers to wolf... not sure what Latrans means. I thought you did it on purpose.

Lupus means wolf in latin. Canis lupus is the scientific name for wolves, and literally means wolf-dog.
Latrans is from Canis latrans, the scientific name for Coyote's.

I like the name....very appropriate, given the strong Roman influence on Wulfen culture....Though, of couse, after centuries of spacetravel and interaction with other races, their Latin might have drifted(as well as the need to accommodate the different voicebox of the Wulfen...)

Darkmax wrote:One unit for thy consideration.


Unnamed

Unnamed

Maybe call it the 'Velocity' class? Those catapults look like they HAUL at some major accelerations....and those glowing power nodes could be either projecting a powerful forcefield or a high acceleration CG-field for drive operations(maybe both).

Not really, the Tyrant's Bane was simply an earlier model of the Packmaster(like the difference between the new-series Galactica and the later Pegasus)...This looks like a more modern successor to the 'Blade'-class destroyer-missile cruiser(which I'm stating up, and stumbling on proper ramming rules) with some sort of MASSIVE crystalline blade-prow(maybe some sort of gravitational shear weapon that projects a fan-shaped, molecule-thin 'blade' of energy ahead of it that acts like a cosmic-string saw, slicing through objects like a micro-blackhole passing through them?)

Nice new pics Darkmax! I like the Vipers. The unnamed ship looks like something you might see in a Robotech military units.

Nice write ups Taalismn!

Oh yeah, that's better...remove the yellow pipping and toss on some dark red and black/dark grey Wulfen insignia (haven't yet figured out what yet, though...a silhouttted Wulfen with raised beheading ax, maybe? Or a dagger jammed through a broken crown?) and you've got the TB....

Yep...better...looks either well battle-rusted, or done up smartly by enthusiastic crew and dockyard workers...

glitterboy2098 wrote:

- Speed: a bit too fast for other, "canon" designs.
Remember M20 is the speed for most craft, according
to DMB2, that threatens the ship to burn out its engines.
Same for FTL.

actually, DB2 lists the higher end for CG as mach 25, and even then it has no mention of effect on the drive. presumably you can build even faster drives, it would just be expensive.

OK, you got me - Mach 25. However, I have not seen craft
faster than M20 (well, Naruni 2nd Wave is still out of my reach).

The fastest fighter is the Scorpion, with its M8/M18 top speed,
but fighters with M10 as top speed do just fine.

there is rules for 'overdrive' type effects where you can push your ship up to 3x it's listed safe speeds at the chance of burning out your engine. that may have been what you were thinking of.

IMO it is not about some afterburner modules (like in the case of
the Scorpion or the Draygon fighters), but more like straining
the engines.

as for FTL, i'd hope that an FTL drive could do better than mach 20.
DB2 gives 10ly/h as the upper limit.

10 ly/h as a theoretical limit, 8 as practical ceiling.

i can drop the FTl down a tad, but most fighters are about 2-4 ly/h, and this one is supposed to be faster and have more powerful engines.

Yeah, "warp 4" would be fine, with notion of
"afterburner" capable to do 5 to 6 ly/h for a few
hours.

- MDC - for its 20 ton, it has less MDC than the Scorpion, with
its cca. 6 tons. But maybe it is all right, since the desing sacrificed
protection for agilitiy (so a few more bonuses should come
handy, like dogfight or extra dodge when using "afterburner")
Or substandard materials were used to cut price... ?

how much of that 20 tons is engine, powerplant, booster, and fuel?
plus the scorpion would be made out of military grade materials and armor, while this craft would be using stuff closer to high end civilian grade.

The Scorpion is 6 tons, however its main gun, with ammo
is listed as being 3 tons. So, we have 3 tons for propulsion,
life support, armor, sensors, secondary weapons, minibar...

Fuel is probably a few kg's of handwavium (antimatter
in canon ) ....

And there are reasons why not using substandard materials
in space fighters - they will limit the mothership, we need
better (=more expensive) engines to reach the desired
agility and speed.

So, I would say, cut the weight to like 10 tons.

- Price: Even when using substandard materials for armor,
to save costs, the powerfull engines (but sublight and FTL)
in themselves are costing a fortune.

that i can fix, i wasn't sure about how expensive it would likely be. 10 mil seemed pretty high.

would 60 million work?

I would say, 80 million for one, 270 for a swarm of 4, and 760
for a squadron of 12. (60 million plus spare parts, know-how,
tools, some extra ammo, etc.)

If it is about to be the fastest fighter in existence, then add
another 20 million.

Adios
KLM

taalismn wrote:Not really, the Tyrant's Bane was simply an earlier model of the Packmaster(like the difference between the new-series Galactica and the later Pegasus)...This looks like a more modern successor to the 'Blade'-class destroyer-missile cruiser(which I'm stating up, and stumbling on proper ramming rules) with some sort of MASSIVE crystalline blade-prow(maybe some sort of gravitational shear weapon that projects a fan-shaped, molecule-thin 'blade' of energy ahead of it that acts like a cosmic-string saw, slicing through objects like a micro-blackhole passing through them?)

No need to get fancy. When my co-GM looked at the website, he thought the Blade was thoroughly useless as a concept. On the other hand, I absolutely loved it and brought him around to my point of view. My view was that the prow of the ship was a solid piece of armor covered by a forcefield, in other words, a massive vibroblade. It would do damage caparable to a large vibrosword, but on a ship scale. Namely 4D6 x 100 MD on a successful ram. Said damage would be enough to collapse a side of most variable shields, and still do damage to the hull of the target ship. It then has the added benefit that if the Blade can stay impaled in its target, its forward section would be effectively inside the forcefield's bubble. Opening the target up to direct hull damage from the Blade's forward energy cannons, and, especially in the hands of Wulfen, boarding actions by the Blade's marines.

Combat mechanics would be simple. As long as the Blade is the same speed or faster than its target, then the following mechanics would come into play: The pilots of the two ships would roll their piloting skill. If the Blade pilot makes his roll and the target fails, the the Blader is considered to have gained advantage and can easily ram on a successful strike roll. Every 5 points the Blade pilot beats his skill roll by gives him a +1 strike bonus. If both pilots make their rolls, then the Blader is considered to be even with the target and has to make a strike roll. However, this time the target is allowed to subtract their success points from the Blader's score. For every 5 points the Blade pilot has left, he gets +1 to his strike roll. For every 5 points the target has over the Blader's score, it gets a +1 to Dodge. If the target succeeds and the Blader fails his piloting roll, then the Blade misses entirely and has to try again next round.
I could see the prow of the ship having a 1000 MDC vibro-field. So considering that ramming vehicles take half the damage of their target, the Blade should normally take no physical damage from a successful ram. Only if a N20 was rolled for the strike would damage be able to make it through the vibro-field.

What do you think?

the blade ships remind me of the early Beserker books. the most effective tactic in those, prior to humanity reaching technological parity with the moon sized beserkers, was 'ram and board', ramming dozens of massive ships into the beserker, and then deploying power armored infantry into the beserker's internals, where they would blast their way through the beserker's robot soldiers to the major systems (brain, power core, ect) and destroy them. the best result was a lobotimized beserker humanity could dismantle or even convert to it's own side. (reprogramming it to serve man and protect life...)

the ramming ships tended to have reinforced prows, and lots of small weapon turrets (since the PA and beserker bot's were on par with modern tanks..)


perhaps those WZ blade ships were designed by a race from a universe overun by mechanoids. Ram and Board might work well aainst those big motherships.

KLM wrote:The Scorpion is 6 tons, however its main gun, with ammo
is listed as being 3 tons. So, we have 3 tons for propulsion,
life support, armor, sensors, secondary weapons, minibar...

Fuel is probably a few kg's of handwavium (antimatter
in canon ) ....

KLM

I would highly recommend not using the Scorpion as an example of anything when it comes to weight. Besides the mentioned 3 tons for weapons, the hull would weigh in at 2 tons (Light Airframe from R:SB1), and minimum life support weighs in at just under 1 ton (1660 lbs, MiO). So the Scorpion is already at its listed weight, and we haven't even added in antimatter reactor, cg drive, the auxiliary drive, and escape pod/reinforced cockpit. If anything, its weight should be in the 10 ton range, with all of the other fighters bumped up 5 tons or so.

devillin wrote:
I would highly recommend not using the Scorpion as an example of anything when it comes to weight. Besides the mentioned 3 tons for weapons, the hull would weigh in at 2 tons (Light Airframe from R:SB1), and minimum life support weighs in at just under 1 ton (1660 lbs, MiO). So the Scorpion is already at its listed weight, and we haven't even added in antimatter reactor, cg drive, the auxiliary drive, and escape pod/reinforced cockpit. If anything, its weight should be in the 10 ton range, with all of the other fighters bumped up 5 tons or so.

while i agree the scorpion is not a good guide, i would like to point out that the mass listed may not be very accrate regarding 3G's technology.
after all compared to the 3G's, MiO is victorian age, and Rifts is 1940's.

the structure of the Scorpion likely masses less than the 2 tons SB1R say's (advanced ceramics/composites maybe?), and the life support is likely much less massive than the MiO value. but you'd still lack room for the reactor, drive, ect.

For peer review....

WZ-HMF-T30 Meteor Storm Heavy Missile Fighter/Bomber
This Tmelain design often has Three Galaxies starship analysts scratching their heads over whether to call it a heavy fighter or a light missile corvette. The Meteor Storm was originally introduced as a support ship, escort, and fighter-bomber to the larger troop-carrying Cachalots, but proved capable of independent operations as well.
The Meteor Storm certainly doesn’t carry the field on its looks, which are functional, rather than esthetic; the long cockpit pod fuselage, broad-faced missile launchers, and spindly wings have earned the WZ-HMF-T30 the unflattering Tmelain nickname of ‘Tzucup’, after an ungainly pelican-like bird of the Tmelain exile worlds. Large and barely streamlined, the Meteor Storm behaves like its namesake in an atmosphere if the crew isn’t careful or the flight computers aren’t properly programmed; atmospheric handling has been described by one pilot as ‘trying to fly a brick wall through the sound barrier’.
In space, however, where drag isn’t a problem, the Meteor Storm is more than fast enough to keep pace with other capital warships.
The core of the Meteor Storm’s design is firepower, particularly missile firepower. The Meteor is first and foremost a missile-boat, and the same massive launcher bays that so apparently overbalance the design give the Meteor Storm its strength as a flying artillery platform. The easily-accessed ordnance bay allows for quick and easy maintenance, configuration, and reloading, while the high capacity launch cells means that the Meteor can deliver volley after volley of missiles.
Backing the main missile armament are a pair of long range laser cannons, and a heavy gravitic rail-gun with rapid-fire capability. Both weapons are well-tested and reliable weapons with proven interdiction capabilities.
The Tmelain military deploys the Meteor Storm as an escort fighter for larger warships, and in large attack wings(typically with an escort squadron of smaller, more agile, fighters), attacking at long range with heavy missiles, and confronting enemy units attempting to close with swarms of defensive missiles and rail gun projectiles. Though initially slow to catch on with other operators and military forces, the Meteor Storm has become popular with a number of Rim star-nations and paramilitary organizations. The infamous Trickster Legion has at least one squadron of Meteor Storms, named ‘Firecracker Squadron’, which has become notorious for carrying mixed warloads of enhanced light-emission/EM noise-generating ‘firework’ and ‘noisemaker’ missiles, nano-gel ‘paintballs’, decoy drones, EMPulse munitions, and a few tac-nukes for good measure, and turning their space battles into pyrotechnic extravaganzas(and humiliation-fests for their enemies).

Type:WZ-HMF-T30 Meteor Storm
Class:Heavy Missile Fighter/Bomber
Crew: 3(pilot, navigator, tactical/weapons officer)
MDC/Armor by Location:
Main Body 2,200
Reinforced Crew Compartment 250
Forcefield Generator Energy Sinks(2) 600 each
Main Missile Bay 600
Long Range Missile Launchers(2) 150 each
Plasma/Laser Cannons(2) 150 each
Heavy Grav-Rail Gun(1) 180
Variable Forcefield 500 per side (3,000 total)

Height: 96 ft (32 m)
Width: 120 ft(40 m)
Length: 150 ft(50 m)
Weight: 1,800 tons
Cargo: Small space in cockpit for survival packs and sidearms.
Powerplant:Nuclear Fusion w/ 15 year energy life
Speed:
(Atmosphere) Hover to Mach 2.2; transatmospheric
(Sublight) Mach 9
(Kitsune Values: 50% of light. Accelerate/Decelerate at 0.9% of light speed per melee)
(FTL) 3.8 light years per hour
(Underwater) Not possible. Not designed for amphibious operations
Market Cost: 250 million credits
Systems of Note:
Standard Ship Systems, plus:

*Ejectable Crew Module---In the event of an emergency, the entire crew compartment can be jettisoned from the rest of the ship to act as a lifeboat.

*Forcefield Energy Sink System----The Meteor Storm’s twin forcefield generators, mounted outboard of the main fuselage, are designed with a special ‘self-sacrifice’ capability in the event the shields should take too much damage and overload. In the event that the ship’s shields take catastrophic damage(a single hit that would both deplete remaining forcefield MDC and penetrate to the ship ), the shield generators divert the overload power into themselves, acting as massive ‘fuze boxes’, soaking up the over-damage(up to 600 pts of extra damage per generator), destroying themselves in the process. The fused and burnt-out generators are then typically ejected from the ship. The downside with this system is that it requires that overloaded generators must be replaced completely(not always possible in the field), whereas standard forceield generators shut down in overload conditions and can be repaired and reactivated later.

Weapons Systems:
1) Main Missile Bay----This weapons system seemingly takes up half the ship’s mass and lower fuselage, hanging under the streamlined upper hull like a misplaced bookshelf. The large missile launcher can be fitted to fire either medium range(36 launch cells) or short range(60 launch cells) missiles from Deck armorers charged with servicing the Meteor Storm have jokingly nicknamed the massive launcher the ‘wall of pain’ or the ‘cabinet of boom’. Anyone who’s ever tried dodging a volley of missiles unleashed by the Meteor Storm isn’t likely to find either nickname a joking matter.
*Medium -Range Missiles
Range:Varies by Missile Type
(Kitsune Values: 160 miles in atmosphere, 80,000 miles in space)
Damage:Varies by Missile Type
Rate of Fire: Volleys of 1-36
Payload: 144 total(4 MRMs per launch cell)

*Short Range Missiles
Range:Varies by Missile Type
(Kitsune Values: 10 miles in atmosphere, 500 miles in space)
Damage:Varies by Missile Type
Rate of Fire: Volleys of 1-60
Payload: 300 total (5 SRMs per launch cell)

2) Long RangeMissile Bays(2)----Mounted on either side of the upper fuselage are two long range missile launchers. They don’t have much room for reloads, so magazine capacity is limited, and thus Meteor Storm crews will pick their moment, and target, carefully before firing their LRMs.
Range: Varies by Missile Type
(Kitsune Values: 3,400 miles in atmosphere, 1,800,000 miles in space)
Damage:Varies by Missile Type
Rate of Fire: Volleys of 1-3
Payload: 3 per launcher, 6 total

3) Plasma/Laser Cannons(2)---One of WZTechYards’ proprietary weapons designs is for a combination long range laser cannon/short range plasma ejector for ranged attack and close-in area of effect defensive fire. In offensive mode, the cannons act as standard long range lasers, but when wide-area damage at shorter ranges is called for(such as dealing with missile barrages), the lasers are stepped down in power and used to excite reaction gas to a plasmatic state in conduits around the laser barrel jacketing. The plasma is then pulsed out by magnetic containment and conduction rings. Switching between firing modes takes 2 APMs/roughly 7 seconds.
Range:(Laser) 5 miles in atmosphere, 10 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 10 miles in atmosphere, 10,000 miles in space)
(Plasma) 1.5 miles in atmosphere, 3 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 3 miles in atmosphere, 3,000 miles in space)
Damage:(Laser) 3d6x10 MD per blast
(Plasma) 4d4x10 MD to a 120 ft wide area(50 ft in an atmosphere)
Rate of Fire: EPCHH for both modes
Payload: Effectively Unlimited

4)Heavy Gatling-Barrel Gravity Rail Gun(1)----Mounted just under the cockpit in a ‘chin’ turret. this powerful multi-barrel projectile cannon spews out small swarms of kinetic-kill projectiles that can tear apart a missile or fighter in seconds. The turret can rotate about 290 degrees, and depress vertically 90 degrees.
Range: 6 miles in atmosphere, 12 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 12 miles in atmosphere, 12,000 miles in space)
Damage: 4d6x10 MD per 80 round burst, can only fire bursts
Rate of Fire: EGCHH
Payload: 300 bursts

Variants:
The WZ-HMF-T30F “Blizzard’ is a single-seat variant produced for the tech-using Algor Giants of Freymos, who commissioned the variant from WZTechYards in return for licensing rights to their ‘Raptor’ heavy interceptor.
Another variant of the Meteor Storm is the WZ-HMF-T30P(X) “Lightning Storm”, which carries a novel heavy energy weapons system in the outer wing pylons. The forcefield generators have been modified for heavier energy loads, in order to produce an intense localized energy field between the twin forward-swept ‘claw-prongs’ of the wings, and generating a giant ionized plasma ‘torpedo’ before ejecting it at the target. The giant ion bolt appears like a long, crackling lightning arc spinning and twisting at the target, and strikes with a prismatic flash. The bolts seem particularly attracted to active gravitic forcefield generators and engines, likely because of the EM/gravitic signature of such targets, making these weapons particularly useful for taking out drive systems and defenses. This variant is currently undergoing advanced field trials with several WZTY clients, before undertaking full-scale production.
Range: 6,000 ft in atmosphere, 12,000 ft in space
(Kitsune Values: 2.4 miles in atmosphere, 2,400 miles in space)
Damage: 1d4x100 MD to a 50 ft blast radius per bolt
Rate of Fire: Once every 30 seconds(2 melees)....Typically stagger the firing of the two pojectors, so they can get off one per melee.
Payload: Effectively Unlimited
Bonus: +3 to strike active CG drive engines and forcefield generators.

On the issue of weights and volumes...depends on the level of technology involved, the amount of difficulting integrating various technologies, and the cost involved....
WZ is a really a CONSORTIUM or guild of various smaller shipbuilders and alien races banded together to share resources and marketing costs in order to compete more effectively with the big boys...Buying/acquiring a CCW surplus warship or a TGE torpedo boat is like making a deal with the United States or Warsaw Pact...it comes with strings attached....Despite attempts to standardize equipment across the board, though, WZ is so big and growing, and standardization is slow to implement, and often priority goes to specific systems first...so you get a new Tech Level 2 subcontractor being shipped Tech Level 2 weapons and power generators, Tech Level 3 life support systems, and a Tech Level 4 ship's computer that's going to tutor the crews in installing all the systems creatively(true story...American computer technician sent to Russia to inspect their gear discovers a processor that has to have a microsecond delay in signal for it to work properly...because they lacked access to the appropriate high-tech programming or microchips, the local techs...no slouches in creativity....worked around the need by winding a length of connecting wire round and round the body of the machine until the calculated signal lag through the wire was EXACTLY the required fraction of a second)...
So you have a range of , for example, life support systems(from big bulky gas reservoirs and chemical filtration beds, to compact nanotech air-scavenging systems) and computers(from old vacuum tubes...remember the buzz about primitive Soviet vac-tube electronics in theri MiGs being resistant to EMP?---to shoebox-sized superprocessors that ARCHIE-3 might feel a kinship to...).

devillin wrote:

KLM wrote:The Scorpion is 6 tons, however its main gun, with ammo
is listed as being 3 tons. So, we have 3 tons for propulsion,
life support, armor, sensors, secondary weapons, minibar...

Fuel is probably a few kg's of handwavium (antimatter
in canon ) ....

KLM

I would highly recommend not using the Scorpion as an example of anything when it comes to weight. Besides the mentioned 3 tons for weapons, the hull would weigh in at 2 tons (Light Airframe from R:SB1), and minimum life support weighs in at just under 1 ton (1660 lbs, MiO). So the Scorpion is already at its listed weight, and we haven't even added in antimatter reactor, cg drive, the auxiliary drive, and escape pod/reinforced cockpit. If anything, its weight should be in the 10 ton range, with all of the other fighters bumped up 5 tons or so.

While I see the truth in your words, please consider banning
the Silverhawk PA from your games

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

devillin wrote:I would highly recommend not using the Scorpion as an example of anything when it comes to weight. Besides the mentioned 3 tons for weapons, the hull would weigh in at 2 tons (Light Airframe from R:SB1), and minimum life support weighs in at just under 1 ton (1660 lbs, MiO). So the Scorpion is already at its listed weight, and we haven't even added in antimatter reactor, cg drive, the auxiliary drive, and escape pod/reinforced cockpit. If anything, its weight should be in the 10 ton range, with all of the other fighters bumped up 5 tons or so.

While I see the truth in your words, please consider banning
the Silverhawk PA from your games

Why? It may be a little light, but there is nothing banable about it. It's not like the suit has a life support system beyond the 2 or 4 hours all environmental armors have.

glitterboy2098 wrote:while i agree the scorpion is not a good guide, i would like to point out that the mass listed may not be very accrate regarding 3G's technology.
after all compared to the 3G's, MiO is victorian age, and Rifts is 1940's.

Uh-uh. Read up on the backgrounds more. When it comes to armor and weapons, Rifts Earth is in some cases equal or slightly inferior to 3Gs stuff. When it comes to life support equipment, MiO is equivalent or superior. Since the orbital communities don't have a planet they can land on to replenish their environment, they've been forced to develop the most advanced life support systems they can. 3Gs have an advantage when it comes to reactors and drives.
Besides, SB1 was supposed to be a guideline for how vehicles are designed and built. Maybe not the Construction Bible, but at a very close guide.

Darkmax wrote:one has to consider many factors in regards to a star-ship's or a star-fighter's weight.

1. Life-support isn't heavy at all, in fact it is probably one of the the lightest component in the vessel. One good example is the commercial airplanes these days. The passenger cabin's pressure comes almost directly from the air-intakes of the jet engines, needing to be cooled off in the packs system.

In the case of a star-fighter, the unit is probably pressurizing the flight suit itself or the entire pilot's compartment. So it would be sufficiently small. Probably just situated behind the seat (which would make ejected pilot survivability more probable). There would be at least one redundant unit, thus pressurizing the compartment.

Uh, dude, you do realize that life support on a closed environment {A Spaceship} is going to consist of one or both of two things. Stored Air or a Recycling System. Stored Air is just that, Air stored in some type of container. Great for short trips, or as a backup system, but for long trips you will need a Recycling System. A Spaceship Recycling System has two parts, one part is the Air replenishment; the other part is the Air Scrubber. In the case of humans, the air replenishment puts out oxygen and nitrogen/helium for us to breath, for other species it may be something else. The Air Scrubbers take the exhalant out of the atmosphere and cleans it of the bad gases, in the case of humans, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The replenishment system is not so big, the scrubbing system is big since it relies on chemical reactions to get the bad stuff out of the air. In either case, it is a heavy system.

Jet aircraft are an open system. Air is brought in through the jet turbines, freshened, pressurized, and delivered to the cabin, then pumped out with the jet exhaust.

2. Flight and combat computer systems are probably so small they would be no bigger than a shoe box, depending on the amount of functions it is required to perform.

3. Sensors would be the second most space consuming of all components, but most of these would be at least partially exposed to the outer hull.

I will grant you this, that's why I didn't include electronics on that parts list before. I figured at the most the computers and sensors would weigh a couple dozen pounds.

4. Thruster engine and power-plant are the same thing in a star-fighter. and would take up at least 1/3 of the entire vessel. This would also be where the "air" that the pilot breathes is "created", should the engine be based on nuclear reactions.

The air has to come from somewhere. Either it is recycled or it is "created" from a starting material, more than likely water. In which case, the ship needs a fuel tank. Which adds on more weight.
Like I said before, the Scorpion is not a good example to use to base the weight of a fighter off of.

devillin wrote:

taalismn wrote:Not really, the Tyrant's Bane was simply an earlier model of the Packmaster(like the difference between the new-series Galactica and the later Pegasus)...This looks like a more modern successor to the 'Blade'-class destroyer-missile cruiser(which I'm stating up, and stumbling on proper ramming rules) with some sort of MASSIVE crystalline blade-prow(maybe some sort of gravitational shear weapon that projects a fan-shaped, molecule-thin 'blade' of energy ahead of it that acts like a cosmic-string saw, slicing through objects like a micro-blackhole passing through them?)

No need to get fancy. When my co-GM looked at the website, he thought the Blade was thoroughly useless as a concept. On the other hand, I absolutely loved it and brought him around to my point of view. My view was that the prow of the ship was a solid piece of armor covered by a forcefield, in other words, a massive vibroblade. It would do damage caparable to a large vibrosword, but on a ship scale. Namely 4D6 x 100 MD on a successful ram. Said damage would be enough to collapse a side of most variable shields, and still do damage to the hull of the target ship. It then has the added benefit that if the Blade can stay impaled in its target, its forward section would be effectively inside the forcefield's bubble. Opening the target up to direct hull damage from the Blade's forward energy cannons, and, especially in the hands of Wulfen, boarding actions by the Blade's marines.

Combat mechanics would be simple. As long as the Blade is the same speed or faster than its target, then the following mechanics would come into play: The pilots of the two ships would roll their piloting skill. If the Blade pilot makes his roll and the target fails, the the Blader is considered to have gained advantage and can easily ram on a successful strike roll. Every 5 points the Blade pilot beats his skill roll by gives him a +1 strike bonus. If both pilots make their rolls, then the Blader is considered to be even with the target and has to make a strike roll. However, this time the target is allowed to subtract their success points from the Blader's score. For every 5 points the Blade pilot has left, he gets +1 to his strike roll. For every 5 points the target has over the Blader's score, it gets a +1 to Dodge. If the target succeeds and the Blader fails his piloting roll, then the Blade misses entirely and has to try again next round.
I could see the prow of the ship having a 1000 MDC vibro-field. So considering that ramming vehicles take half the damage of their target, the Blade should normally take no physical damage from a successful ram. Only if a N20 was rolled for the strike would damage be able to make it through the vibro-field.

What do you think?

I think, with all credit due you, I will have to steal this in order to clear some stumbling blocks with regard to ramming rules on at least one ship design...

MY hat off to the maniac in the demolition derby-decal'ed starship accelerating towards me....

Darkmax wrote:
Well.... It depends on the way we look at the supply chain of the TY. Do they really buy surplus stock or do they have the support of various small manufacturers who produces individual parts?

Both...surplus stock to keep good, but under-represented(typically due to boneheaded mismanagement), ship designs afloat, as well as systemry that is still perfectly usable, but which for one reason or another is no longer considered to be 'in style'....
Then there are the various smaller subcontractors who are commissioned to turn out parts for the various new and resurrected/'refurbished' designs.

Basically, whatever keeps 'em flying!

Could work better...I have NO practical experience, or knowledge of, business management(I'm in the 'Eat the Overpaid CEO of a Failing Company" economic bracket), so I defer to your superior knowledge of these sorts of things...

Nice new ships pics! Good one Darkmax! The one where you show both it from the bow and stern aspects looks like something from Gundam.
Nice write up Taalismn!

Darkmax wrote:BTW guys, I really meant give me an opinion as to whether any of the pictures should be included in the catalog.

Thing looks like a dragracer....if there was something more to the prow rather than just the rampways, I'd say it would be a possible product, as is, it looks like a one-off experiment or a test-rig for testing WZ small craft(kinda like the training rafts and training carriers used during WW2 to acclimate Navy pilots to landing on real aircraft carriers...).

That is a tuff thing to do. Although I'd say the "Trooper", since it doesn't fit with the starships.

Darkmax wrote:ok... so something for the front. Thanks.

Because I think we should decide which ship should go into the "catalog". I meant to take some down from it, but I need opinions.

I think the Firebird/Phoenix would be one of them.

Well, I'm doing long-term stats for that, but then again, I'm doing stats for ALL of them, so whatever/whenever I finish, we can make the decision to re-instate later(I do hope you're saving your older creations on disc or other media)...

The Blade destroyer's probabvly going to be next done, so that's a "Keep".

I know the Frontier Space City images came down long ago, but this can go in as 'text only' in the catalogue of products...It's a 'building block' for people to expand on, rather than a complete or function-specific design...as well as a stepping stone the larger 'Pacifica' ...

*WZ-554-SC Frontier Space City/Platform
The ‘Frontier’-class Space City is WZTechYards’ most prominent venture into commercial space platform design----a multipurpose modular space and high-atmosphere CG-equipped habitat platform that can be configured for residential, commercial, industrial, or military use.
Sometimes derisively called a ‘spacegoing coffee table’ by Human critics, the Frontier follows a basic configuration; a cubic structure containing the support hardware, powerplant(s), docking bays, station-keeping thrusters, and an array of contra-gravity generator nodes, with a central upper grav-deck upon which various modular tower-structures can be plugged into the support and access trunks of the lower decks. The upper structures can be anything from industrial gantries and fueling towers to habitat ‘plexes and hydroponic bubbles, as per buyer/owner needs/desires.
The Frontier is typically built at one of WZ’s central shipyards, CG-Drive booster pods attached, a pilot ship control-locked, and the city flown FTL to its final destination. There the extra CG-pods are dismounted and flown back with the pilot-ship, and final assembly, if any, performed on-site.
One of the most frequently encountered configurations of the Frontier mounts additional ‘permanent state’ anti-grav generators/panels to the station, allowing the station to safely operate long-duration in a planetary atmosphere, hovering in low orbit. A number of colonial and commercial users deploy such ‘floaters’ over worlds being developed, or too dangerous for extended service settlements. Several planets have purchased multiple Frontiers configured as atmospheric scrubber stations, filtering out toxic chemicals or access greenhouse gases from their atmospheres.
Because of its ease of construction and ease of customization, the Frontier has done well in sales; WZ has sold hundreds of these platforms across the Three Galaxies, where they can be found in a variety of roles, from spaceports and refueling outposts to corporate headquarters and private mansions.
Type:WZ-554-SC Frontier
Class: Space City/Habitat Platform
Crew: Standard maintenance complement of 300, but depending on the configuration, can support.
MDC/Armor by Location:
Main Body 300,000
Outer Hull per 100 ft area 450
CG-Nodes(5) 50,000 each
Radiator Plates(3) 50,000 each
‘Topside’ Buildings (1-24) 2d4x10,000 each
Forcefield(standard) 3,000
Height: 3690 ft(1230 m)(actual base platform is roughly 1,000 ft high, but ‘topside’ structures can reach another 2,000-3,000 ft)
Width: 1 mile(1600 ft)
Length: 1.1 mile(1760 m)
Weight: Several million tons
Cargo: 1 million tons(2-3 times that if the station is a dedicated warehousing platform)
Powerplant: Advanced Fusion-Nuclear w/ 50 years energy life, supplemented by solar cells and batteries.
Speed:
(Atmosphere) ‘Floater’ Frontiers equipped for atmospheric operation can maneuver at a leisurely 40-50 MPH.
(Sublight) Maneuvering thrusters allow the Frontier to achieve modest Mach 1
(FTL) During placement stage(or emergency escape drive) CG-pods provide a speed of 2.25 light years per hour.
(Underwater) Properly sealed and equipped, a Frontier COULD operate underwater, but wouldn’t buying a custom-construction underwater city be easier and cheaper?
Market Cost: 7 billion credits
Systems of Note:
Standard Starship Systems, plus:
*Life Support---Standard atmospheric and water recycling, good for 50 years continuous operation with only a 5% loss of usable mass, under un-resupplied conditions.
*A.I. Computer Control---Standard Robotic A.I. ‘superintendent’ with standard systems monitoring and regulation.

Weapons Systems: None Standard, but the standard configuration has 60 blisters/modified airlocks that can be fitted with point defense weaponry such as lasers and missile launchers(or simply left as observation lounges and sensor mounts).

Aux. Craft: Standard configuration has internal docking/hangar space for 50 heavy shuttles/light transports(or three times that number of fighters) , and up to 20 external docking ports. Depending on the final configuration, the station can have 2-6 times that number of hangar spaces/docking ports.

Variants:
WZ sells a military version of the Frontier, designated the WZ-555-DP ‘Redoubt’ that has roughly the same base dimensions, but a circular ‘baseplate’, accommodations for buildings/auxiliary structures on both ‘top’ and ‘bottom’, twice the megadamage values, EMP/radiation-hardened systems, and a variable forcefield system as standard(8,000 each side, 48,000 total). It also has hangar bay accommodations for 200 fighters. The basic platform sells for 20 billion credits(not including any extra weapons/facilities added on later).

devillin wrote:
No need to get fancy. When my co-GM looked at the website, he thought the Blade was thoroughly useless as a concept. On the other hand, I absolutely loved it and brought him around to my point of view. My view was that the prow of the ship was a solid piece of armor covered by a forcefield, in other words, a massive vibroblade. It would do damage caparable to a large vibrosword, but on a ship scale. Namely 4D6 x 100 MD on a successful ram. Said damage would be enough to collapse a side of most variable shields, and still do damage to the hull of the target ship. It then has the added benefit that if the Blade can stay impaled in its target, its forward section would be effectively inside the forcefield's bubble. Opening the target up to direct hull damage from the Blade's forward energy cannons, and, especially in the hands of Wulfen, boarding actions by the Blade's marines.

Combat mechanics would be simple. As long as the Blade is the same speed or faster than its target, then the following mechanics would come into play: The pilots of the two ships would roll their piloting skill. If the Blade pilot makes his roll and the target fails, the the Blader is considered to have gained advantage and can easily ram on a successful strike roll. Every 5 points the Blade pilot beats his skill roll by gives him a +1 strike bonus. If both pilots make their rolls, then the Blader is considered to be even with the target and has to make a strike roll. However, this time the target is allowed to subtract their success points from the Blader's score. For every 5 points the Blade pilot has left, he gets +1 to his strike roll. For every 5 points the target has over the Blader's score, it gets a +1 to Dodge. If the target succeeds and the Blader fails his piloting roll, then the Blade misses entirely and has to try again next round.
I could see the prow of the ship having a 1000 MDC vibro-field. So considering that ramming vehicles take half the damage of their target, the Blade should normally take no physical damage from a successful ram. Only if a N20 was rolled for the strike would damage be able to make it through the vibro-field.

What do you think?

Still trying to apply this to the Blade but running into some problems....I try running various scenarios for ramming through my head, but considering I FAILED high school physics and all that talk about elastic andnon-elastic and oblique-angles of collision....

Okay, straight-out damage from a ramming attack.. would should be the ratio of damage to mass and speed? A small ship going 50% of light speed is going to hit that massive starliner like a spitball from hell...maybe go right THROUGH the larger ship...A Dominator Battlemoon would just SHOULDER that same starliner aside...I figure the ramprow on ships specifically designed for ramming would act to soak up damage fro aram through shockasorbing structures or superior forcefields and inertial dampening before the rest of the ship folds up behind it, but there must be a (narrow) window of relative speed where the ship's ramming damage drops, but also does increasing less damage to the ramming vessel until you're essentially at docking speed with the target...

Such a ratio would have to be coached in rther broad terms especially if you're using non-Palladium values like 30-60% of light speed(at which velocities, if you hot something you're both %%&^%&!!!) ....Don't know qho you'd work it .....Every A tons of mass x B miles per hour/Mach number difference in relative speed between the ramming vessel and the intended target=c points of damage on a successful ram?

gadrin wrote:Naruni "Cyclops" Scout Pod
Mini-Missile Launcher
M.D.: 2D6x10 each (usually plasma)
Rate of Fire: Single or up to 12 missiles
Range: 1 mile in atmosphere, 5 miles in space
Payload: 24 missiles

I'd trade the mini-missiles for short- or medium-range missiles(better range)...maybe give it the ability to drop 'mine missiles' like those in Naruni Wave 2....
Advanced stealth, recon drones...some more modular expansion of capabilities....

Darkmax wrote:

taalismn wrote:Still trying to apply this to the Blade but running into some problems....I try running various scenarios for ramming through my head, but considering I FAILED high school physics and all that talk about elastic andnon-elastic and oblique-angles of collision....

Okay, straight-out damage from a ramming attack.. would should be the ratio of damage to mass and speed? A small ship going 50% of light speed is going to hit that massive starliner like a spitball from hell...maybe go right THROUGH the larger ship...A Dominator Battlemoon would just SHOULDER that same starliner aside...I figure the ramprow on ships specifically designed for ramming would act to soak up damage fro aram through shockasorbing structures or superior forcefields and inertial dampening before the rest of the ship folds up behind it, but there must be a (narrow) window of relative speed where the ship's ramming damage drops, but also does increasing less damage to the ramming vessel until you're essentially at docking speed with the target...

Such a ratio would have to be coached in rther broad terms especially if you're using non-Palladium values like 30-60% of light speed(at which velocities, if you hot something you're both %%&^%&!!!) ....Don't know qho you'd work it .....Every A tons of mass x B miles per hour/Mach number difference in relative speed between the ramming vessel and the intended target=c points of damage on a successful ram?

How about MDC per Mach speed?.... With the max combat speed as the limiting factor. Any higher speed will incur damage to the ramming ship itself, causing structural damage from shock.

Ah, but how do you deteremine max combat speed? All I see in Palladium is top speed...and if both vessels are moving at their top speeds/max accelerations and shooting at each other, wouldn't that be considered combat speed?

The big advantage of something like the Z Theatre Recon Pod is that it's multi-environment and, properly outfitted, can be used for recon, commando insertion/extraction, and covert minelaying...I mean, oceans are rarely as well-covered as land....

Darkmax wrote:

taalismn wrote:Still trying to apply this to the Blade but running into some problems....I try running various scenarios for ramming through my head, but considering I FAILED high school physics and all that talk about elastic andnon-elastic and oblique-angles of collision....

Okay, straight-out damage from a ramming attack.. would should be the ratio of damage to mass and speed? A small ship going 50% of light speed is going to hit that massive starliner like a spitball from hell...maybe go right THROUGH the larger ship...A Dominator Battlemoon would just SHOULDER that same starliner aside...I figure the ramprow on ships specifically designed for ramming would act to soak up damage fro aram through shockasorbing structures or superior forcefields and inertial dampening before the rest of the ship folds up behind it, but there must be a (narrow) window of relative speed where the ship's ramming damage drops, but also does increasing less damage to the ramming vessel until you're essentially at docking speed with the target...

Such a ratio would have to be coached in rther broad terms especially if you're using non-Palladium values like 30-60% of light speed(at which velocities, if you hot something you're both %%&^%&!!!) ....Don't know qho you'd work it .....Every A tons of mass x B miles per hour/Mach number difference in relative speed between the ramming vessel and the intended target=c points of damage on a successful ram?

How about MDC per Mach speed?.... With the max combat speed as the limiting factor. Any higher speed will incur damage to the ramming ship itself, causing structural damage from shock.

Max has the right way of doing this. I had this same discussion with my friend about a year or so about this when we were setting up our Robotech-Phase World campaign. I argued to make ramming damage simple, he wanted to go with "realistic" damage. So I did the math for him for doing "realistic" damage, based on the one spot where we are given specific ramming damage, from the SDC games like N&SS. When you start scaling the damages up by weight and speed, you end up with incredibly scary numbers. For a while he wanted to go with those damages until I pointed out that an Invid Scout w\booster going at full speed could do something like 2D6x100 MD to anything it hit. Considering a Clamship has 200+ of them and they would all be gunning for a capital ship, and I would have no problem using them as missiles, he backed down very quickly.

We ended up using the Death Cloud Cannon as our basis for ramming damage. 4D6 x Mach Speed for damage for smaller vessels. That damage x10 for ships 10K - 40K tons; x20 for 40K - 100K, and x100 for ships larger than 100K tons. that's why I don't have a problem with 4D6x100, since the prow of the Blade is specially designed and equipped for doing this job.

Okay....that further refines the solution and brings me that much closer to finishing and posting the Blade. Thanks!

Both are very nice new vehicles. Thank you both of you!

Blade Layout Thoughts:
1. Considering it's mission profile and its pictures, I couldn't see the Blade carrying missiles or much of anything else that could cause adverse affects from a hard jolt.
2. The first set of pylons would be a combination of Gravity Cannon in the front, and CG-Drives in the rear. The outer pylons would be front and rear facing manuevering drives, both for combat manuevers and for pulling out of an enemy ship, since I have a feeling CG drives would not work in that situation. Each of those outer engines would also have 4 laser or particle beam cannons mounted around the forward nozzle.
3. You've got those two huge airlocks just behind the made portion of the blade. You could do either grappling cables or a flex-tube from the Blade to its target.
4. While I don't get what those ridges along the top of the ship are for, the Blade definately needs lots of turret weapons for point defense work and broadside firing. Best bet would be energy weapons, no missiles.
5. The Blade would definately be a fast bugger. Especially with a main CG-drive, two secondary CG-drives, and two huge double-ended manuevering drives. Besides the huge vibro-blade, its heavy forward firepower would indeed make this ship a Blade.

Well, this is what I have for the Blade from Darkmax's original specs, stats, and pictures...we can tweak the ramming rules together...

*WZ-MD-016 Blade Destroyer
Though closer in size to a heavy cruiser(and much larger than WZ’s ‘Mogami’-class cruiser, for example), the appropriately named Blade-class destroyer is dubbed a destroyer under the original designation of its builders. The WZ-MD-016 was first manufactured by a member firm of WZTechYards of a planet(Kai’Shem) that had just joined the Three Galaxies; their premiere design for a large warship using less sophisticated technologies was found to be quite robust and the design was subsequently modified to utilize more advanced tech and materials.
The Blade lives up to its name in its general appearance; a long, thin, sleek armored hull, with a ‘hilt crossbar’ formed by a pair of auxiliary engine pylons, and an upper works bridge and sensor assembly. The Blade’s destroyer-class armaments lay concealed under hatches and sliding doors set into the ship’s streamlined hull; with appropriate EW cloaking, the ship can appear on long range scans as a particularly fast light starliner or transport. The primary weapon of the Blade is a large battery of long range missile launchers (at the time the ship was originally designed, the natives of Kai’Shem had not yet perfected heavy energy weapons for their ships, instead relying on more familiar missile armaments). Added on later by WZ is a pair of external-mount long range particle beam cannons for anti-ship actions with direct fire weaponry. For close-in defense, the Blade mounts several additional batteries of short range missiles and six retractable point defense laser turrets. In addition, the ship carries a large contingent of marines for boarding ships and investing facilities crippled and neutralized by long range bombardment. Finally, in a nod to the Kai’Shemi traditional love of bladed weapons(their planetary culture outlaws the private ownership of firearms, but personal balded weapons and a code duello are part of most civil law codes), the Blade appropriately enough is modified for ramming attacks. Though this capability has been rarely used operationally since the Kai’Shem have joined the greater Three Galaxies community, the few times it has been used to skewer and board enemy vessels, it has proven most effective.
The primary configuration of the Blade remains close to its original design; a space-going troop carrier and interdiction ship, intended to police space colonies and border settlements. The introduction of more compact and powerful Three Galaxies-grade fusion nuclear engines and CG drive units has openned up the range and internal space on these ships. Formerly much internal volume was given way to bulky reaction mass tankage...this has been now allocated to expanded life support and crew quarters, allowing a complement of crew and troops originally cramped into tight quarters much more room to move about in...and this has made extended range missions and tours of duty much more endurable. Sensors and forcefield shielding have been upgraded to Galactic standards, and the hull has been reinforced with more modern megadamage materials.
Despite the improvements, however, the Blade is structurally rather fragile for a ship of its size, and its overall armament remains weak compared to smaller ships like the CCW Warshield. Thus, the Blade’s best hope of surviving combat against more modern warships is to overwhelm the opposition with long range missile fire, then retreat from anything that survives the onslaught, to repeat again from a distance. It is often deployed as a missile-picket ship in larger battlegroups, or as a ‘missile barge’ supporting troop landings on planets and asteroids.
Surprisingly, the Blade is one of WZTechYards’ more popular ships, despite its rather primitive basis. The ship is so large and economical to produce, and so tolerant of modification, that it can be quickly adapted to a variety of purposes, military and commercial. This popularity has translated into large orders and happiness for the Blade’s original designers and builders, who now find their shipyard slips in constant operation to meet the WZTechYard orders.
Type:WZ-MD-016 Blade
Class: Missile Destroyer/Cruiser
Crew: 800; 150 crew, plus 450 troops, and an additional 300 passengers
MDC/Armor by Location:
Main Body 65,000
Bridge 2,000
Ram Prow 9,000
Engines(2) 6,000 each
Particle Beam Cannon Pods(2) 5,000 each
Long Range Missile Launchers(8 ) 250 each
Point Defense Turrets(8 ) 150 each
Variable Forcefield 5,000 each side(30,000 total)
Height:375 feet (125 m)
Width:660 feet (220 m)
Length:1500 feet (500 m)
Weight: 82,000 tons
Cargo: 15,000 tons
Powerplant: Nuclear Fusion w/ 30 year energy life
Speed:
(Atmosphere) Hover to Mach 7; transatmospheric
(Sublight) Mach 12
(Kitsune Values: 60% of light speed; Accelerates/decelerates at 1.2% of light speed per melee)
(FTL) 5 light years per hour
(Underwater) The Blade actually CAN operate underwater, able to move thru the water at 60 MPH, and handle depths up to 1,800 ft
Market Cost: 990 million cedits
Systems of Note:
Standard Starship Systems.

Weapons Systems:
1)Long Range Missile Launchers(8 )---The main weapon of the Blade missile destroyer is its long range missile launchers.
Range:Varies by Missile Type
(Kitsune Values: 3,400 miles in atmosphere, 1,800,000 miles in space)
Damage:Varies by Missile Type
Rate of Fire: Volleys of 1-24 each launcher(so all eight launchers firing simultaneously will put 192 LRMs in the air at once!)
Payload: 144 each launcher, 1152 total. Additional missiles may be stored in the cargo holds and reloaded within 30 minutes(1 ton of cargo per 12 missiles)

2)Particle Beam Cannons(2)---The main energy weapons of the Blade are these two particle cannons, mounted in external pylons on the ends of the ‘wings’ where they have maximum arc of fire. The pods can rotate a full 360 degrees and swing out 90 degrees.
Range: 7 miles in atmosphere, 14 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 14 miles in atmosphere, 14,000 miles in space)
Damage: 1d6x100 MD per shot
Rate of Fire: Three times per melee
Payload: Effectively Unlimited

3)Short Range Missile Batteries(4)---Mounted in the hull behind sliding hatches, these SRM launchers typically fire in defensive barrages against incoming fighters and missiles.
Range:Varies by Missile Type
(Kitsune Values: 10 miles in atmosphere, 500 miles in space)
Damage:Varies by Missile Type
Rate of Fire: Volleys of 1-10 each launcher
Payload: 100 per launcher. Additional missiles may be stored in the cargo holds and reloaded within 30 minutes(1 ton of cargo per 48 missiles)

4)Point Defense Laser Turrets(8 )---Six point defense laser turrets can be deployed from concealed sliding hatches.
Range: 6,000 ft in atmosphere, 12,000 ft in space
(Kitsune Values: 2.4 miles in atmosphere, 240 miles in space)
Damage: 1d6x10 MD per burst
Rate of Fire: EGCHH
Payload: Effectively Unlimited

5)Ramming Attack--- Ramming attacks between capital warships, though a favorite plot device of holodramas and hardcopy grapho-readers, are generally avoided by most starship captains, and typically taught only as theoreticals in most space combat schools...However, the tactic remains a weapon of last resort for the desperate and by those seeking to take their opponents by surprise. Few heavy starships are actually BUILT with ramming tactics in mind, but the Kai’Shem have built many of their ships with a ramming capability from the keel up, and have developed the tactic into something quite useful(and possibly survivable). The namesake knife-like prow of the Blade is reinforced both structurally and virtually by a vibro-blade-like forcefield. Ramming attacks, however, are a risky business, however;
(insert improved ramming rules here) Blade captains attempting this tactic on a stationary(relative to the Blade) target will typically order a massive deceleration just before hitting the intended target.
Note:
Damage: 1d6x1000 MD on a ramming attack(?, subject to change/modification)

Aux. Craft:
6 shuttles
10 Aerospace Fighters

Variants:
The MiD-016 has spawned at least four major variants;
The WZ-MiD-016D is a specialized drone-carrier; its long, thin, hull design concealing a specialized cargo; three bays of drones(up to 200 drones). These drones are deployed, like the destroyer’s armaments, from concealed bay-hatches on the sides and underside of the hull. These ships can also be distinguished by more elaborate communications antennae and retractable sensor ariels that are deployed to maintain command links to the drones.
The WZ-MiD-016M is an armed merchantman conversion that replaces the long range missile launchers, particle beam cannons, and troop quarters with cargo bays (able to handle up to 50,000 tons of cargo) and handling equipment. The M-conversion also adds four more point defense turrets, and substitutes the particle beam cannons with medium G-Cannons(6 miles in atmosphere/12 miles in space, 5d6x10 MD per 25 round burst, and 1,000 bursts per pod)
The WZ-MiD-016UD is a mine warfare ship, equipped for both deploying orbital and deepspace mine platforms(up to 800), and also neutralizing them. It drops troop capacity in favor of mine/satellite storage. The UD variant also carries eight shuttles and twelve drones equipped for remote operation mine-sweeping. Missiles and particle beams are retained for long distance defense and detonation of mines.
The WZ-MiD-016-C02 is simply the civilian version of the Blade; all armament but two point defense lasers have been removed, the ram prow has been removed, sensors and avionics have been downgraded to civilian standard, and accommodations for up to 2,000 passengers and 25,000 tons of cargo installed instead....These ‘ploughshare buses’ or ‘butterknives’ as they’ve been nicknamed sell for about a third the price of a regular Blade-class warship, and have proven very popular with short-haul commuter spacelines and carriers.

WZTechyards is also rumored to be working on a substantially upgraded ‘battlecruiser’ model of the Blade, which will have a correspondingly tougher structure(TRIPLE the MDC), heavier shields(DOUBLE the shield strength), cruise missile launchers(3), faster-firing missile launchers( volleys up to 32 LRMs in a single volley) and even more weaponry concealed under its skin(some industry analysts believe that WZTY hopes to capitalize on the well-known weaknesses of the earlier Blades by slipping this ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ in among other Blades) more in keeping with Galactic standards. Though details are scant, the ‘WrathBlade’ is expected to appear sometime in the next decade.

Very nice Taalismn! Good job!

Dude, that is no destroyer. That ---- is a cruiser.

Compared to other cruisers, that ship is already on the upper end. So a "battle cruiser" version with triple the MDC would be the equivalent of a dreadnought. My concern is that your stats as a cruiser are all over the place. I love the fact that you got out of the rut the book cruisers are in with none of them being over 700 feet. The length on this baby actually does feel like a real cruiser. The weapons load seems kind of cool, especially considering its missile usage, but where are the Particle Beam cannons supposed to be on the picture? Are they mounted on the wingtip pods? Also, the crew size seems a little low, maybe an addiitonal 200 soldiers, or maybe just a full load of power armor troops are needed. As for the blade, for the cruiser version, that seems pretty cool.

The only major change I'd like to see is in the variants. If you want to make a battlecruiser variant, I'd suggest dropping the cruiser version down to about 30,000 MDC and make the BC version around 90,000 MDC. More than anything else, I would love to see an actual Destroyer version of this ship that is roughly a third of its size and MDC, is about 30% faster, and is designed specifically for boarding actions.

Darkmax wrote:don't blame him. I was the one who named it a destroyer.... I can never make the difference between the cruiser and destroyer.

As far as I understand, a destroyer is a bigger ship than a cruiser, and much slower.

A cruiser, as its name suggest, should be a cruising weapon platform with some speed to it.

Correct me if I am wrong. Actually these days, unless the ships are very specialized, the categorizations make little sense since most of them are multi-roled.

i beleive that in the early days, a destroyer was smaller than a cruiser, and was basically a frigate that lacked a punch against the bigger ships. a destroyer was an 'escort' design optimized for use against torpedo-boats, and later Submarines. Cruisers were the smallest true warships, mounting big guns on a small hull. Dreadnaught type battleships were the biggest warships.

then carriers were developed, driving the battleship to near extinction, and then the anti-ship missile was developed, which wiped them out completely. modern ships are a bit odd compared to the old set up, since frigates now do the anti-sub work, destroyers and cruisers are the main warships, and carriers are the only large ship still in use. modern frigates, destroyers, and cruisers are also much bigger and much more massive than the old types, with modern frigates being closer in size to old destroyers, modern destroyers being closer to old cruisers, and the modern cruiser being the size of a 'pre-dreadnaught' battleship.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i beleive that in the early days, a destroyer was smaller than a cruiser, and was basically a frigate that lacked a punch against the bigger ships. a destroyer was an 'escort' design optimized for use against torpedo-boats, and later Submarines. Cruisers were the smallest true warships, mounting big guns on a small hull. Dreadnaught type battleships were the biggest warships.

Yup, that's right. Frigates are the more ambiguous of the ships. They are basically long range patrol ships. Their armament was in the same size class as those on a cruiser, but in numbers like those on a destroyer. But while a destroyer is designed to stay near a coastline or a fleet, a frigate is much more wide ranging.
As for the Blade, I didn't realize that it was supposed to be 1500ft long. Seeing "Destroyer" made me think that it was in the 500ft range like the other Phase World destroyers and frigates should be. A lot of the stats I originally introduced were based on this assumption.

Speaking of ship size, I mentioned this in the Phase World errata thread, but has anyone else picked up on the fact that the Warshield's dimensions are wrong? Getting beyond the fact that it is too small, going by its pictures, the length and height are the wrong dimensions.

taalismn wrote:For peer review....

WZ-HMF-T30 Meteor Storm Heavy Missile Fighter/Bomber
This Tmelain design often has Three Galaxies starship analysts scratching their heads over whether to call it a heavy fighter or a light missile corvette. The Meteor Storm was originally introduced as a support ship, escort, and fighter-bomber to the larger troop-carrying Cachalots, but proved capable of independent operations as well.

Pretty cool design, but yeah, it's definately a frigate of some sort. It's the same size as a book troop transport, so it is far outside the range of being a fighter.

I believe that I do mention the particle beam cannons were on the pylons...

All in all, though, I wanted to give the impression of a large ship that was built by folks who didn't quite have the same up to date gear as most other 3G manufacturers...that's why they joined WZ...they're using the guild's connections and shared resources to upgrade their technolgy accordingly...For now, though, they have a large-hulled design that's stout enough to be used for a variety of purposes, that's been slightly modified to hold its own against other ships, and with improved shipyard techniques, cheap enough to mass produce....like a Liberty Ship...as their technology catches up, you'll see proper Cruiser and Battlecruiser-rated vessels comparable to what the rest of the THree Galaxies is producing...and the shipyards will alos produce a proper 'destroyer' on a smaller scale(thanks, btw, that's another variant to be stat'ed out)...Just as the 'Mogami' is a bigger ship writ small, the 'Blade' was a smaller ship writ large, and not EXACTLY conforming to Galactic standards...

But DarkMax's later 'big blade' cruiser could be the proper successor to the 'Blade', especially in the ramming role, while a smaller 'Poignard' or 'Dirk' class destroyer with the 'Blade's ' same hull design, but proportionately smaller, will fill the proper 'destroyer' rating, similar in power to the CCW's 'Hunter' class....

Darkmax's signature ship for peer review and suggestions...

* WZ-RS-052 Wasp Light Runner Ship
The WZ-RS-052 Wasp would be a best seller and a company-maker in its own right even if it had been the ONLY product built by its manufacturer. As it is, Galactic Armory claims that it would have been a star in THEIR constellation, a design for the next-generation Proctor, if WZTechYards hadn’t headhunted the design team and stolen the plans out from under them, while WZ claims that office politics and crooked contract dealing led the design team to leave GA for greener pastures; they merely provided young talent with the means to make their ideas, quashed under megacorporate indifference, the resources to flourish.
Indeed, while the Wasp shows signs of similarity to some GA designs, the streamlined dart-like Wasp also shows influences more typical of WZ’s pangalactic design pool. The rakish lines of the Wasp has influences of Kittani and Oni ships, a Promethean-built propulsion system, Kreeghor-inspired weapons systems, and a number of wholly original WZ innovations packed under its skin. The incorporation of a more powerful and compact Lucerin powerplant was the biggest and most important change, providing the Wasp with power to spare, while openning up space and tonnage for additional avionics and transport space. A Phase Drive comes standard on the Wasp, boosting its FTL speed up a notch over most other ships of its class, while two nacelle-mounted auxiliary CG-drives contribute the ship’s impressive speed and agility in both normal space and in atmosphere.
The armaments fitout on the Wasp is insane; a capital warship-grade particle beam cannon takes up nearly half of the underside and nose of the ship, two fire-linked laser cannons extend from the dorsal hump, a pair of rapid-fire tachyon ‘shotguns’ are mounted on the auxiliary engine pods, and several underwing hard points allow the Wasp to carry additional ordnance, including ship-busting cruise missiles. Military grade variable forcefielding and ‘smart’ nano-composite armor give the Wasp a high degree of physical protection from anything that it can’t detect with its long range sensors and dodge with its great agility.
The ship’s command and control system has been thoroughly automated with ‘smart’ AI interfaces and comprehensive controls that allow a single person to effectively pilot the small starship. The crew cabin is small, but laid out ergonomically for most humanoid species for maximum efficiency and comfort in the limited space. Accommodations are rather spartan, consisting of three ‘coffin’ bunks, a shower bag, fresher, and kitchenette; when not carrying passengers, a Wasp singleship captain will typically use the unused cabin-bunks as personal storage space.
Though WZ originally envisioned the Wasp to be a heavy fighter, it soon became clear that the ship they eventually came up with was too expensive to be a mass-production line fighter....However, its light cargo capacity and speed suggested another role....Runner. The Wasp was ideal for small-scale, high-return, smuggling and courier duties, with its combination of speed, maneuverability, and hard-hitting armament.
The Wasp is quickly becoming the rage with Runners, from lone wolves who need a singleship, to larger operators willing to invest in squadrons of the ships. A number of buyers operate the ships as armed couriers, such as the Azeka Crystaklik Combine, which uses several Wasps to carry high-value parcels of gemstones between their facilities, and Olympia HyperCourier, who deploy their Wasps for priority data-solid transfer for megacorporations. Some buyers, especially the Free Worlds Council who have received several ‘donations’ of Wasps, operate the ship as it was originally meant, as a heavy fighter and raider. An inordinate number of Wasps have been sold or ‘transshipped’ through the Bushi Federation, where they apparently end up being fitted with Oni-produced stealth systems, furthering the rumors that WZTechYards Thundercloud has a deal with several of the more prominent Oni clans and zaibatsus.
The subsequent success of the Wasp have earned WZ no small degree of animousity from Galactic Armory, who feel that they were robbed of a design rightfully theirs. GA has subsequently tried to produce its own knock-off clones of the Wasp, but with little success, lacking many of the innovations the multi-talent pool of WZ incoporated into the Wasp.
Type:WZ-RS-052 Wasp
Class: Light Runner/Singleship
Crew:1, with enough room for 1-2 passengers
MDC/Armor by Location:
Main Body 1,000
Reinforced Crew Compartment/Pod 400
Main Engine 800
Auxiliary Thruster Nacelles(2) 220 each
Wings(2) 380 each
Medium Particle Beam Cannon(1, nose) 500
Light Laser Cannons(2) 200 each
Variable Forcefield 500 per side(3,000 total)
Length: 90 feet (30 m)
Width: 60 feet (20 m)
Height: 22.5 feet (7.5 m)
Weight: 120 tons
Cargo: 10 tons
Powerplant: Advanced Lucerin Fusion-Nuclear Power Plant w/ 25 year energy life.
Speed:
(Atmosphere) Hover to Mach 7. transatmospheric.
(Sublight) Mach 18
(Kitsune Value: 42% of light speed. Accelerate/Decelerate at 1.8% of light speed per melee)
(FTL) 7.3 Light Years per hour
(Underwater) The Wasp can survive short immersions(no more than 40 minutes), able move at 55 MPH at depths up to 500 ft, in planetary hydrospheres.
Bonuses: +4 to Strike, +3 to Dodge, +1 to Initiative

Market Cost: 290 million credits

Systems of Note:
Standard Ship Systems, plus:
*Advanced Flight Control System---The Wasp’s advanced computer control system is so attuned with the ship’s design, that the ship starts with the following flight performance bonuses: +4 to Strike, +3 to Dodge, +1 to Initiative. The AFCS can also perform basic autopilot, communications, and sensor monitoring functions(equal to a Read Sensory Instruments, and Radio: Basic, of 94%)

*Ejectable Crew Pod----The reinforced crew cabin can be detached from the rest of the ship to serve as a lifeboat. The pod has stealth characteristics of its own to prevent capture by hostiles, or can deploy an emergency beacon for rescue by friendlies.

*Military Grade Sensors----Standard fitout for the Wasp is a sensor array comparable to what most line warscouts are carrying in the TGE and CCW fleets; 240,000 mile detection range in normal space, and can spot active FTL drives 10 light years out.

*Stealth Systems---The Wasp starts with a better-than-average stealth system that reduces the effective range of enemy sensor systems by 50%(and/or -40% to Read Sensory Instrument rolls)

Weapons Systems:
1) Nose-Mounted Medium Particle Beam Cannon(1)---This powerful weapon stretches almost half the length of the ship; being intended for much larger warships, the MPBC gives the Wasp a sting befitting its name. Advanced beam focusing technology eliminates damage and targetting problems at short ranges endemic to most other open market PBC weapons of like class.
Range: 7 miles in atmosphere, 14 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 14 miles in atmosphere, 14,000 miles in space)
Damage: 2d4x100 MD per blast
Rate of Fire: 4 shots per melee
Payload: Effectively Unlimited

2) Light Laser Cannons(2, Dorsal)---Mounted in the rear engine pod, overlooking the forward fuselage and ‘hump’ cargo pod, are two fire-synched light laser cannons.
Range: 2 mile in atmosphere, 4 miles in space
(Kitsune Values: 4 miles in atmosphere, 400 miles in space)
Damage:2d6x10 MD per single cannon firing, 4d6x10 MD for both cannons firing simultaneously(counts as one attack)
Rate of Fire: EPCHH
Payload:Effectively Unlimited

3) Tachyon Scatterguns(2, wing mounted)---A tachyon accelerator cannon, with ‘scattershot’ firing focus, is mounted outboard on each suxiliary engine pylon. These are typically used to create a ‘firebreak’ in front of the ship for destroying incoming missiles, mines, and other projectiles, but they are also very effective, if short-ranged, strafing weapons.
Range: 1.5 miles (2,500 m) in atmosphere, 6 miles (10,000 m) in space w/ 3 mile wide arc*
(Kitsune Values:6 miles in atmosphere, 600 miles in space)
* Scatter width is reduced to 1/4th in atmosphere
Damage:2d4x10 MD per single cannon firing
Rate of Fire: EPCHH
Payload:Effectively Unlimited

4) (Optional) Underwing Hardpoints(4)---The Wasp mounts two hardpoints, inboard of the auxiliary engine nacelles, for carrying optional external ordnance and gear. Each hardpoint can be outfitted with ONE of the following:
a) Mini-Missile Pod----48 shot pod
b) Short Range Missile Pod----12 shot pod
c) Medium Range Missile Pod----6 shot pod
d) Long Range Missile Launcher----3 shot pod
e) Cruise Missiles---1 per hardpoint

Variants:
Several requested variants consist of simply adding additional equipment, such as Phase Fields,Oni-built stealth suites, or other exotic equipment, while other mods alter the weapons configuration...such as removing the cargo compartment and dorsal lasers altogether, and using the space to mount 1-4 gravity rail guns of various calibers, with an ample supply of ammunition in the modified cargo hold, swapping out the wing tachyon cannons for additional lasers or phase cannons, and the like.
Most telling is WZ’s Project DARKMAXX, which explores even more powerful configurations of the Wasp, adding two more wings, an additional pair of missile launchers and tachyon guns, and adding an enlarged after-fuselage for additional cargo space and more powerful engines

Darkmax wrote:BTW, I would appreciate if someone can classify the ships sizes according to their role for me, so I don't make the same mistake again.

Don't worry about it Darkmax, it's not a big deal. I did do a list of some of the ships I'd recommend changing their designations for. Format is: Name - Recommended Mission Title - Ship Class of the Vessel. Those that have just one Mission/Class fall under both the mission title and ship class.
Pheonix - Command Carrier - Dreadnought
Perdition - Command Carrier - Battleship
Cachalot - Landing Craft - Battleship
Wyvern - Support Vessel - Battleship
Mastodon - Battleship
Draco - Battleship
Prometheus - Landing Craft - Battleship
Leviathan - Assault Carrier - Battle cruiser
Blade - Battle Cruiser
Ethereal - Stealth Cruiser - Heavy Cruiser
W-Class - Luxury Liner - Heavy Cruiser
Dark Justice - Assault Carrier - Cruiser
Shiva - Cruiser
Piecemeal - Exploration Vessel - Cruiser
Firestorm - Cruiser
Sabot Escort Carrier - Light Cruiser
Mogami - Destroyer
Quest - Frigate
Runners - Frigates

And a note, the size category lines up with the Ship Class on that spreadsheet I sent you.

And anything on the ramming rules and damages before I post the Blade?.... I'll be posting pictures of its successor very soon after. A bigger and faster ship with more "Blade" on its bow.

Do the ramming damage as listed above, that's cool. When you do the "Mini Me" Destroyer version of the Blade use the damage that I recommended.

Hey Max,

Would you mind doing two designs for me? The first would be a version of the Invid Clamship with Star Hive upgrades and general styling. I'd leave that one to you. The other would be a Luxury Liner, roughly 600 feet long, shaped like a football with a fish tail on it. The Luxury Liner I would need to send you the top and side sketches I did of it.

Also: Any chance you could do a ship with TGE stylings? I'd love to see what you could do with their asthetics.

Interested?

[quote="Darkmax"]ah! The little Wasp is coming to! hmm.... the price..... isn't it a bit steep? And PROJECT DARKMAXX!.... if you know, you HAVE to be involved.


BTW, I would appreciate if someone can classify the ships sizes according to their role for me, so I don't make the same mistake again.


quote]

Yeah, but for all the stuff you get, it's a hot little luxury number...plus, with a Phase Drive already installed, Phase Shielding and Phase Fields come cheaper if you wanna shell out the creds for the top of the line stuff...

Darkmax wrote:And anything on the ramming rules and damages before I post the Blade?.... I'll be posting pictures of its successor very soon after. A bigger and faster ship with more "Blade" on its bow.

WEll, I'm soliciting more input on what people think should be the damage for ramming attacks by the Blade.....

Way I see it, you have two major ramming forms...specially made armored rams that soak up the damage of an attack, gradually taking more damage until you just replace the entire prow...Cheap, short term...

The other more expensive option is to designate a forcefield for the purposes of ramming attacks, that regenerates after each attack...or one can bolster the field by shifting power from the variable forcefields to reinforce the ramming attack(ala the SDF-1's 'Daedalus Attack').

Wasp: The price seems to be high, but hey, check the
performance of the ship vs. the Proctor heavy fighter
and you will see, that this is dirt cheap.

Classification (ie. frigate/destroyer/cruiser/etc):
Actually, classification depends on time (WWI destroyers
were 400-1500 tons, today they are close to 10.000
tons) and the builder.
But the "standard" anglo-saxon terms in growing order is
something like this:
corvette (*) - frigate - destroyer - cruiser - battlescruiser -
battleship - dreadnought.

Carriers range from frigate size to "dread" size.

(*) As for corvettes... Well the distinction between
a heavy fighter and a corvette is blurred, as in the case
of like frigate/destroyer.

Adios
KLM