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EPIC wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:"Meddle not in the affairs of demons, for your are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup."

Hippie McChunklets with your choice of Liver, Eye Ball or Spleen Squeezins for dipping

Colt47 wrote:..snip.. Now that I think about it, the human powers in North America that I like, top being the one I like the most, bottom being the least favorite: ....snip...

4. Um... The pecos BANDITS! Go go bandito!

Cain wrote: ..snip..I don't see the Coalition as Humanity's best or last hope. I don't think they're even humanity's best hope in North America, let alone the entire world. ....
Heck, even in North America, there are other's I would be looking to, instead of those twisted, evil Coalition murderers. I don't see it in any way, shape or form as a choice of 'serve demon' or 'serve Emperor Prosek'. There are MANY other options.

blight wrote: Name two

Cain wrote:There are plenty of places to live out west that are doing just fine without having to murder other non-human victims of the Rifts. Plenty of places that aren't so short-sighted that they refuse to make use of the strengths of magic to help fight off the demonic invaders. There's a lot of places in North America that humans can live and prosper in besides the Coalition States or Lazlo. Plenty of places that aren't ruled by dragons or other superior beings, so not wanting to be lorded over by a dragon is a ****-poor excuse to sign yerself up to be lorded over by Empy Prosek and carry out his evil missions of murder.

blight wrote: again Name two

Cain wrote:If *I* had to choose what the best chances of my SODIC ass would be if I was on Rifts, it sure as hell wouldn't be the CS. I'd find a more sensible and non-evil kingdom that humans can make use of both magic and technology and alliances with other non-diabolic non-humans. There's well over a dozen to choose from in North America alone, but NGR or Japan would be great places to live too. I wouldn't support the CS, but would try to stay out of their way.

blight wrote: again name any other North America community that has any real chance to survive

Cain wrote:
I didn't vote that way, though, because I voted how I would when playing the Rifts game. My characters don't usually support the CS, and will definitely kill any CS people they see commiting evil. Many of the deebee characters I've played even go looking for excuses to fight against the CS army, and will attack them whether they saw the individual unit doing ill things or not. Bad experiences at the hands of the CS and all that.

blight wrote:And by the underlined action you prove them right

Cain wrote:
So I voted down with the evil Coalition scumbags. They're as bad as the demons, and both will get gunned down if I see 'em.

Cain wrote:Colorado Baronies. Dweomer. New Lazlo. Kingsdale.

New Kenora would have been alright, before the CS conquered and enslaved them.

Dozens of smaller communities, like Magestar and other small towns like that. Hell, I'd rather live in Perez than a CS state. Even with the Black Market villains that operate there, the place has nothing on the CS for evil. It's leaders also aren't genocidal megalomaniac madmen.

I could name even more. But you just wanted two.

Cain wrote:Dweomer. Colorado Baronies. Arzno. New Lazlo. Lazlo. Kingsdale.
That's a top five list.

Cain wrote: The CS do not eat children in my game, no. They do what the books say they do.

Saying that the Coaltion is not bad or evil on the basis that they don't eat children during magic rituals is complete and utter hogwash. You are discounting bookfuls of data detailing the many evil things the CS does. That the CS commits evil cannot be disputed. They have clearly wiped out as many villages of innocents (some deebee, some human) as rampaging demons have. They too torture prisoners, many CS soldiers even ENJOY it just like demons do.


Have you read the Rifts main books and worldbooks any time recently, or has it been 10 years?

Cain wrote: Colorado Baronies. has no real power and are buffered and going to be absorbed by the cs Dweomer. going to be fodder for the federation of magic New Lazlo. pawns of lazlo and fodder for the Xititics (sp?) Kingsdale. um over ran by bug aliens and almost decimated during the the juicer uprising

New Kenora would have been alright, before the CS conquered and enslaved them. New Kenora was making and selling arms to the CS's adversaries..The were doomed the moment the sold mercs tanks

..snip..Hell, I'd rather live in Perez than a CS state. Even with the Black Market villains that operate there, the place has nothing on the CS for evil. It's leaders also aren't genocidal megalomaniac madmen.
Nope but if you don't like what they do the will kill you, but your right they are not aren't genocidal megalomaniac madmen. They are evil thieves murders, drug dealers and slavers.

I could name even more. But you just wanted two.
and boy did you pick good ones

The CS do not eat children in my game, no. They do what the books say they do.

Saying that the Coalition is not bad or evil on the basis that they don't eat children during magic rituals is complete and utter hogwash. You are discounting bookfuls of data detailing the many evil things the CS does. That the CS commits evil cannot be disputed. They have clearly wiped out as many villages of innocents (some dee bees, some human) as rampaging demons have. They too torture prisoners, many CS soldiers even ENJOY it just like demons do.
i never said they were not evil they do evil things I just said up to this point the are the best chance for human survival..I haven't read revised SB1 that might change things...


Have you read the Rifts main books and world books any time recently, or has it been 10 years?

Dracurian wrote:Alejandro wrote:

Alistair Dunscon is the leader of the Federation of Magic and is a human...

The FoM is definitely NOT considered a human power bloc.

Whom defined it as a non-human power block? According to the fluff I read, the C.S. it is a mob of insane daemon worshippers who would sacrifice their own children for power, & traitors to the human species. They could not be traitors if they were not human to begin with, so while they are hopelessly corrupted, they are a hopelessly corrupted human regime.

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, arguably while Kevin tried to make a moral dilemma with the CS being humans and not all of the people in the regime are evil, it's not about if the individual is evil, it is about the whole organization as a unit and empire. The goals of the CS are world conquest and enslavement. I find it laughable that they think they can take over the continent without the use of ALL types of resources available. They have magic and psychic detectors, but they only use psychics and do not even attempt to use magic since it is viewed as a evil and corrupting thing. Plus, them pushing into Tolkien really polarized the views on the CS. While they were once a gray area, now they are definitely conquerers.

Cain wrote:This thread is about if you support the Coalition or not, and why, is it not? I was not aware we were discussing who could beat who in a war.

If the people of the Coalition lose their humanity as many in the Federation of Magic have, by going down similar paths, then I don't see them as a good hope for humanity. I see that as the fate we dearly want to avoid. I guess I must have things in common with folk like Erin Tarn or Lord Coake or something, as I happen to agree with them on this topic. *scratches head*

Some of you can live with supporting and joining the evil empire, and still be good people. Good for you. I would not be cool with that, and would put my hopes for humanity in one of several other powerful nations that are just as capable of fighting off demonic invaders and xicitic as the CS is, who aren't afraid to use magic as well as technology, and don't have bigotted views or kill people just for being different.

Cain wrote:Good point. I guess I wasn't really taking that into account. But at least one of the places I mentioned as being a better places in NA for me to place my hope for humanity than the CS, can defend themselves against the CS. The CS still isn't 100% certain the place is real, and it says in FoM that it'll take them decades just to find it. Assuming they first defeat Dunscon and the rest of the True Federation first, who definitely wouldn't sit idly by as they did with Tolkeen if the CS moved full armies into the Magic Zone itself to go after Dweomer.

dark brandon wrote:Not everyone in the Federation of Magic has sold their souls. Their leaders, like Dunscon himself, certainly have.

Not every nation that uses magic congregates with demons. It's by no means a requirement, and the books have quite a few examples of states that don't consort with demons and their ilk. No demons helping the techno-wizards of Colorado, iirc. I doubt Lazlo would turn to them in a pinch. Isn't that the main reason why they didn't help Tolkeen against the CS, because they would not consort with demons and condone unleashing other evil monsters?

Other places, like Dweomer, do allow some demons to live there, but only if they obey the laws and rules and don't commit evil acts like murder, eating sentient beings, blood sacrifice etc. Only demons that can refrain from such demonic activity are permitted in the city.

55% human, 33% deebee, with a small percentage of powerful supernatural allies to protect you and teach you magic, a large magic using army that doesn't have to rely on demons and other evil things, nigh impossible for outsiders to find and attack, sounds like a good and safe place to live to me. It's where I'd likely go, if I had to stay in North America.

Dracurian wrote:dark brandon wrote:

Dunscon is not human. He sold his soul to be something more powerful.

Well yes, WE know that, but do the people on rifts earth know it?
The C.S. certainly tell everyone that is true, but they say that about any being who is not a C.S. citizen, do they know or is it just a belief; & as the C.S. is seen as an evil/tyrannical nation, would anyone belive it?
Also as far as anyone else in the world is concerned the Federation of Magic is the same massive unified 'nation' it was before it the Lords of Magic broke away, & the Dunscons' are human. So What I said was factual from a certain point of view.

Cain wrote:Wait. Are we now again talking about good to evil ratio in the FoM? I thought we were talking about people who have actually sold their souls, which you pointed out is quite different. Though what you said is true nonetheless.

I think I'm going to have to fork out money and buy the stupid revised edition of FoM. *sigh* It seems the relationship between Alistair and his 'rivals/allies' the Lords of Magic must have changed from how it was originally written if he'd just sit back and do nothing while a CS army ravaged through the magic zone to attack a member of the True Federation. He may not like the Lords of Magic, but it said he had no problems working with them against the CS. I thought he planned to deal with them later, after they'd helped him defeat Chi Town. It also said he wouldn't betray the location of Dweomer. Has all that changed in the revised ed? Is there much else in the book that changed?

Bloodspray wrote:There certainly is something to be said about putting humans back on top on the Earth. But the idea of waiting until the fighting is over to look inward and correct the government is a fantasy. If that should come to pass, it will be FAR too late. Especially when said gov't keeps it's people illiterate and fed a strict diet of only propaganda.

Lots of parallels to real life in fact. The slippery slope. Give up freedoms and it quickly becomes too late. The only way to do it is to have an ARMED, educated, free populace. But I digress.

Cain wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Cain wrote:I think I'm going to have to fork out money and buy the stupid revised edition of FoM. *sigh* It seems the relationship between Alistair and his 'rivals/allies' the Lords of Magic must have changed from how it was originally written if he'd just sit back and do nothing while a CS army ravaged through the magic zone to attack a member of the True Federation. He may not like the Lords of Magic, but it said he had no problems working with them against the CS. I thought he planned to deal with them later, after they'd helped him defeat Chi Town. It also said he wouldn't betray the location of Dweomer. Has all that changed in the revised ed? Is there much else in the book that changed?

He won't betray the location, and nothing in the revised edition has changed. By going on what he said vs his action vs. his past action what he says and what he does is two different things. Such as he gave his word he would help tolkeen in their troubles, but didn't send help, and it was suggested it was because HE wanted to defeat CS, specifically proseks for the death of his father, just as he blames the lords of magic for the same. If CS were to attack Dweomer, based on his past actions, he will not help. Instead he will wait till the war is over, take any and all refugees to join his insain cause, just as he did with tolkeen, slowly building up an army who's single goal is revenge or worse.

But in my copy of FoM the text explicitly states that Alistair is lying to the Tolkeen council, and it clearly lays out his plan to give them token aid, and then withhold his army at the crucial moment, so he can watch the CS take them down and then attack the CS army if it leaves itself open. It says that he blames Tolkeen for his fathers death. It says that all over my book, in multiple places. It says he feels the lords of magic are partially at fault too, because they could have done more, but they are not the ones he blames as the cause of his father's death and defeat--- that honour he gives to Tolkeen, who refused to aid the Federation in its time of need.
It says nothing explicitly laid out in a similar fashion that his dealings witht the Lords of Magic are the same as his plan/dealings with Tolkeen. There is nothign spelled out there saying he's lying with them too. What it says, is that if the CS attacked Dweomer, he would help. It says while he reviles and doesn't trust the Lords of Magic, he outright hates the Coalition, and he is willing and capable of working with them to see the CS defeated.

I'll reference the exact quotes and pages later, but meh, maybe not worth the effort. Really, what's the point? Obviously my copy of FoM is outdated, and my interpretation of what it clearly says is twisted and wrong, and clearly my opinions are invalid. I mean, big name fans on this board with 1000's of post counts are always right around here, even if the actual sourcebooks are offering contradictory information, aren't they?


u knock me off teh interwebz brandon yay

Cain wrote:I'll reference the exact quotes and pages later, but meh, maybe not worth the effort. Really, what's the point? Obviously my copy of FoM is outdated, and my interpretation of what it clearly says is twisted and wrong, and clearly my opinions are invalid. I mean, big name fans on this board with 1000's of post counts are always right around here, even if the actual sourcebooks are offering contradictory information, aren't they?


u knock me off teh interwebz brandon yay

Cain wrote:FoM page 37

If the Coalition States should find and attack Dweomer, Lord Dunscon would send support, but raise a powerful force to 'avenge' the city and its Lords should it suffer great losses or fall. He would love nothing more than to enter the picture at the moment when things look worse (sp) for Dweomer and save the city.

He sees it as a great way to unite the splintered Federation behind him, and even better if it sees his rivals/foes weakened (as opposed to outright destroyed as he clearly wishes for both Tolkeen and the CS).

QUITE different to his stated plans on dealing with Tolkeen. Them, he planned to sit back and watch them be destroyed, as they did when they 'betrayed' his father so long ago by leaving the Federation.

If you wanted to continue the discussion, I believe that's where we were. I should probably bow out at this point though. I never came into this thread to engage in discussion or debate, just to vote, and state why I voted that way, as the OP requested.

Dracurian wrote: So until the 'greeblies' prove to be more powerful than humanity, I say war to the knife & beyond!!!!

Lobotaru wrote:The Coalition states must exist, for it gives rogue adventurers a high tech source of stolen equipment to play with when on adventures! Who doesn't want to steal a IAR-3 Skull Smasher and go on a rampage?

Lobotaru wrote:None of my characters support the coalition. If you are an evil mofo they kill you on site, if you have a high standard of morals they brand you a traitor to humanity and kill you, as a matter of fact unless you are subservient to the CS then you are as good as dead! Heck, it isn't uncommon for them to not protect their fronteer towns in the new west from attack (I've read at least two examples of this, one in mercenaries and another somewhere else that I can't remember). I'd try reasoning with them but that rarely works (their troops are like zealots).

Lobotaru wrote:That still supports my point... they claim to support human life, but unless you support them they could care less about you. They could have very well stopped that attack, but instead decided to film the massacre and use it as another example of why all D-bees are bad.

K20A2_S wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Lobotaru wrote:That still supports my point... they claim to support human life, but unless you support them they could care less about you. They could have very well stopped that attack, but instead decided to film the massacre and use it as another example of why all D-bees are bad.

I didn't say it didn't support your view, just correcting a statment or rather clerifying it.

Another view, is that I don't see why CS would stick it's neck out for anyone that's not CS. They support human life, but they also make it extreamly clear if you don't support the CS, "the greatest chance humans have for retaking the earth", then you arn't doing your job as a human, and in a world as deadly as rifts, that can be a bad thing.

If the CS had Dark Brandon as a CS recruiter, they would have the manpower to attack Tolkeen, Lazlo, Xiticix, and FoM all at the same time and win.

Nxla666 wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Lobotaru wrote:That still supports my point... they claim to support human life, but unless you support them they could care less about you. They could have very well stopped that attack, but instead decided to film the massacre and use it as another example of why all D-bees are bad.

I didn't say it didn't support your view, just correcting a statment or rather clerifying it.

Another view, is that I don't see why CS would stick it's neck out for anyone that's not CS. They support human life, but they also make it extreamly clear if you don't support the CS, "the greatest chance humans have for retaking the earth", then you arn't doing your job as a human, and in a world as deadly as rifts, that can be a bad thing.

If the CS had Dark Brandon as a CS recruiter, they would have the manpower to attack Tolkeen, Lazlo, Xiticix, and FoM all at the same time and win.

Actually Dead Boy is more likely to fill that roll.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Lobotaru wrote:That still supports my point... they claim to support human life, but unless you support them they could care less about you. They could have very well stopped that attack, but instead decided to film the massacre and use it as another example of why all D-bees are bad.

I didn't say it didn't support your view, just correcting a statment or rather clerifying it.

Another view, is that I don't see why CS would stick it's neck out for anyone that's not CS. They support human life, but they also make it extreamly clear if you don't support the CS, "the greatest chance humans have for retaking the earth", then you arn't doing your job as a human, and in a world as deadly as rifts, that can be a bad thing.

If the CS had Dark Brandon as a CS recruiter, they would have the manpower to attack Tolkeen, Lazlo, Xiticix, and FoM all at the same time and win.

Actually Dead Boy is more likely to fill that roll.

yeah he gives them long speeches, you think little jo-jo wrote them for him

Ravenwing wrote:Did you have any doubts that the CS would win!

Ravenwing wrote:With my last breath, and the last of my blood. I shall stand for the CS and our beloved emperor! Death to the Xenos!

Nxla666 wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:With my last breath, and the last of my blood. I shall stand for the CS and our beloved emperor! Death to the Xenos!

Psst...

Wrong Emperor.

Its "Death to the demonic invaders!"

K20A2_S wrote:

unknownhero wrote:lol its been 2 years since my cousin has posted this .... has anyone opinions changed about Cs or are they stronger then ever?

CS love only grows withing the human spirit, all others sell their souls to the devil.....

slade wrote:I think that the coalition was good at first when they where led by I belive Itomis the first to protect the humans against the monster d-bees but when he died (rumor syas by his son) Itomis the second broadened this view to include all d-bees. I usaully leave the coalitoin alonr but they are always where they should not be. getting right in the middle of our buisness. Like one adventure me and my bro and our two dogs where walking in a forest when we where struck down. We lived but our two campanins were no where to be found. a few months later after following leads we came upon a small genetic shop where we quikly discoverd we where bieing followed by 2 coalitoin dog hounds and a officer. We tried to flee but to no avail. we where takled down and the 2 dogs where our long lost freinds. This made all four of us go on rampages against the coalition. and since then we have always been against the coalition

Alejandro wrote:If you use magic, you're not really a human being anymore as a human being does not naturally yank a loaf of bread and a fireball out of thin air. MDC supernatural beings are DEFINITELY not human. Humanoid, sure....but if your skin can't be penetrated by anything short of a current day tank shell, you are definitely NOT human.

Alejandro wrote:Aiding and abetting a non-human is not an immediate death sentence unless said non-human has already attacked the CS. If that's the case, how is it any different from aiding and abetting someone who has attacked the nation you live in? You're guilty of treason and that's an offense punishable by death.

Alejandro wrote:Where exactly do you get these strange facts like "talking against the CS = death" or "reading & writing = death"? Or is this really one of those "the CS kills anyone I say it does" things?

Alejandro wrote:For the last one...let me get this straight. If someone conquers your land...but you keep fighting, then they kill you because of it...this means that they don't protect people? That pretty much screams that they're defending people. If anyone's a threat to people in that last example, it's the person still fighting.