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Alejandro wrote:

By reading through all the Rifts' World Books is the impression I get.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured.

RUE, 2nd printing, page 229. Karl Prosek's political essay. "Hitler was a genius....." Last 2 lines: "Use fear and ignorance, for they are tools of incredible power. And patience."

RUE, 2nd printing, page 230. Kevin Siembieda states in second column, second paragraph. "I wanted to show how one man and those who implement his dreams of power (i.e., the Emperor and the military and government leaders who carry out his agenda) can corrupt a nation. I wanted a human monster."

Rifts Source Book One, Expanded and Revised, page 7. Under paragraph titled: “The technological explosion of the last 50 years…” It states further down: “The Coalition States have become the pinnacle of (albeit ruthless) human success and power.” The key word being “ruthless”.

Rifts Source Book One, Expanded and Revised, page 122. First paragraph, second column: “The Republicans don’t have a problem with the CS being human supremacists, but they do have a problem with Coalition leaders manipulating their people , rewriting history and encouraging ignorance and complacency while the military is engaged in acts of genocide and the acquisition of imperial power.”

Rifts World Book 10, The Juicer Uprising, starting page 132. “….a plan to use Juicers on a wider scale, as a ‘disposable army’ that could be used in a suicidal attack against the Coalition’s enemies.” To much more to quote, the lies, deceit and plans to get the Juicers to fight for the CS with promise of cures and then killing them with the implanted chips. All because they “may” be a threat to the CS? That’s Nazism genocide right there. Out live their usefulness, kill them. That’s evil.

Rifts World Book 11, Coalition War Campaign, page 36, under CS Hierarchy, The Emperor. The whole entry talks about how Karl Prosek has fashioned himself after Adolph Hitler and uses his ideas to rule as Emperor. “……..the Emperor has adopted many of Hitler’s methods and practices, particularly the manipulation of the people through a powerful sense of unity, patriotism, purpose and power. Like Hitler, he uses war as a vehicle to unite and motivate his people. War helps to make the people believe that they have control over their destiny and gives them a (misguided) sense of empowerment, control, and strength.” Adopted Hitler’s methods and practices? How evil is that.

Rifts World Book 11, Coalition War Campaign, page 45, “The Coalition Good or Evil?” by Kevin Siembieda. “The evil of the Coalition States lies primarily at its core. Emperor Prosek, his son Joseph II, the Executive Counsel, many of his generals, and virtually the entire power base of the current Coalition States are fundamentally self-serving villains who use and manipulate the people to trust and believe in them for their own personal gain and the greater glory of the allied States.” That is the first two sentences. Read the whole thing for the full effect. Last sentence: “Sadly, they have used such idealistic notions as freedom, peace and heritage as well as the fear of the unknown and inhuman, to corrupt, prejudice and control the citizens of the Empire.”

This is just some of the reasons I get the “impression” from reading through the Rifts books that the CS is an evil empire that does the things I have stated earlier.

And, Alejandro, I take no offense of your comments, thank you .

Alejandro wrote:

What?! If I am fighting for my people to be free from the CS control how is that I would be a threat to my people? Was the French underground Freedom Fighters against Nazi occupation army during WWII a "threat" to their people? Absolutely not! This last argument doesn't make sense to me.

Actually, it WAS a threat to their people. Let me clue you in on something...when the French Resistance would strike the Nazis, the Nazis didn't just go "oh damn, they got us. We can't fight back!" No, they'd round up sympathizers, rabble rousers, ordinary people...pretty much anyone they suspected and then guess what, Bob? They were not, unfortunately, treated to cookies and tea. Imprisonment and a good beating were pretty much the best that could be hoped for...though cookies could probably be expected if one of the captured gave up info on the Resistance which many did. So even though the French Resistance fought the big bad Nazis, the Nazis fought back and in their eyes there were no "non-combatants" policies like those that currently hamstring US forces in Iraq. Life was not sunshine and cupcakes during the Nazi occupation and the Resistance did nothing to make life better in France, they only served to hurt the people.

Did they benefit the Allies? Sure, no argument there...but alone against the Nazis the French Resistance would have accomplished absolutely nothing but a constant state of misery amongst the populace.

Actually, I am a History Buff and I know what you are saying. Each time that happened it created even more resistance fighters out of friends and relatives of those killed. As to the French Resistance, they were not the ones killing innocent men, women and children, the Nazi’s were. Is it better to give up all resistance to an evil government that can drag you out in the street anytime they want and arrest and/or shoot you for any reason than to fight against them? I think not.

And I am not "saying" that the CS does this in Chi-Town or the like. But, they have the absoulte power to do so. But in small villages or towns they "may". They do, IMO, make people disappear as needed, similiar to the government in V for Vendetta movie. They may even be returned after questioining unharmaed, fined or jailed and even killed if deemed for the betterment of the Empire and Humankind.

This is my humble take on the matter.

K20A2_S wrote:... KS writes a little more on one side of the CS(evil side obviously) b/c they a trademark of RIFTS that are a good ploy/story/game play outline ...

So good infact that it regularly spawns a heated 70+ page discussion!

Now having said that I dislike the inbred, hate-mongering neo-savages for what they've become.

GREENSKINS FTW!

K20A2_S wrote:If you take the time to go through the complete history of teh CS and the atrocities they suffered from d-bees and magic practitioners, you'd completely understand why they have taken the stance they have taken.

And no I do not understand. The CS is doing as bad and worse that the horrific acts performed against them. They have become "Non-Human" in their treatment of all races and D-Bees. Even the ones who want nothing more than to help protect others.

It's a matter of survival.

Wouldn't it be better to have D-Bees, supernaturals and magic users on the CS side who want to help? That would increase their chances of survival greatly.

Take a step back and put yourself in teh shoes of a regular Joe squishie stuck in the world of RIFTS.......you can easily see why so many people trade in their rights for protection. It's a feeling you can't replace to know a greater hand is over your household is over you to protect you and your well being as long as you farm for thier soldiers, make war machines, ect ect......

A greater hand over your household that can crush it anytime it wants? A neighbor accuses, you go away for a while (maybe not come back). A greater hand as long as you farm, make war macines, etc. Sounds like a form of slave labor to me. If you don't produce, we don't portect.

Why do people join the army now? To protect the ones they love, protect thier way of life, a way a life created by WAR!! against GB, against Hitler ect..................people join the CS for the same reasons......

They base their reasons to join on govenment lies and re-written history. False atrocities by non-humans reported by the government. Propaganda vids. Their reason are sound as you have stated, but they are based on falsehoods.

KS writes a little more on one side of the CS(evil side obviously) b/c they a trademark of RIFTS that are a good ploy/story/game play outline b/c RIFTS would be a little more boring if the CS was the "savior" of humaniry with a perfect record.

You have made my point. KS has the CS as an evil empire. Can't get more canon that that.

Their like the US..........this country has done some f upped stuff to many countries. But we like it here and we put up with it and their politics for the way of life they offer us.

Here's the BIG difference. The U.S. citizens don't have to put up with anything. That's why we have elections, can voice our oppinions, call our senators/congressman. We can impeach officials, tell the free media, write letters, publish books, free to work or not to work, get educated, etc. etc. etc. And it is not a dictatorship, that's another big difference.
So how is the U.S. like the CS? Not likely.

Thanks for your input, K20A2_S, I appreciate it.

Areas where people live in just fine without the portection of the CS to keep them or their families from being eaten.

Merc-Town, The New West towns; Villagers, farmers and home steaders in Dinosaur Swamp, The Federation of Magic to name a few. People banned together without the CS have and can do just fine on their own. Especially where humans and non-humans co-habit together with no problems. Not to mention all of the other places in Rifts World where there isn't any CS at all, like Russia, Japan, England, etc.

So, humans do not "need" the CS to survive in Rift's Earth. Some to most of the aggression against the human race would be lessened if the CS didn't kill all non-humans on site as the CS soldiers are taught to do. The CS causes a lot of resentment against humans due to their tatics.

As to the reference to "droping of the bomb" on Japan, the Allies stopped their aggression once Japan surrendered. The Allies did not continue to wipe out the Japanese race as the CS does to all non-humans. Japan has become one of our greatest allies and ecnomic partners. The CS would never do this with any non-human race. These, again are the great differences between the U.S. and the CS.

K20A2_S wrote:The reason the CS no longer trusts d-bees/magic practitioners and treats them the way they do is due to their lenient policies against them when they first started the CS, they took advantage of it and attacked the CS and brought them to the brink of collapse. It would be like asking the U.S. to forgive Obama and the terrorists, we all know most muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

That made me giggle.

Evil Psychologist wrote:I would rather be a powerful pawn than cannon fodder...

All pawns are cannon fodder, and any power they gain is typically negated in its use.

American Proverb "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I am a firm believer in that. And I am a die hard believer in freedom of speech. I spent over 20 years in the U.S. Army defending the freedoms we have (1972-1993). And I have seen first hand what other countries are like in their best and worst of times. I spent 3 years living on a cargo ship that sailed around the world 3 or 4 times and seen even more countries as a civilian.

In an answer to

Actually, "we" can't do hardly a thing against our government.

We may feel that way at times, but we have the freedom and the right to do so through legal means and elected officials. The CS doesn't even allow the populace to do so. Again, a difference.

As to

And on a side note...I personally believe that free speech is one of the worst things around. The ability to say whatever you want, whenever you want is not something I believe everyone should be entitled to. I don't consider it an essential right that everyone should have...you should have to earn such a powerful freedom, not just get it for having a pulse.

Isn't it nice that you do have the free speech right to state this? Even though I totally disagree with you, I will defend to the death the right for you to say it freely. Isn’t it great that the “Pro-Free Speech Police” are not breaking down your door to arrest you for speaking out against free speech for every one?

Again, thanks for all the comments and banter. I think we are not going to sway one or the other. I am glad, that's what gaming is all about. No one need to be right or wrong, because in your game if it right for you and your group, then I am all for it.

One last comment, this is JUST A GAME. It can be what ever you wish it to be as it is Fantasy.......

bigbobsr6000 wrote:American Proverb "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Actually, I believe that was said by Voltaire, who was French.

Hey Al, you ever see or read Starship Troopers? I think that's the society you want. Heinlein was a huge proponent of the civilian/citizen distinction, and I pretty much agree.

Evil Psychologist wrote:We'll see soon, perhaps. Nothing lasts forever, especially governments. Assuming it will always be there to watch over you is really the bubble in question here.

How many historical societies have exisited in anarchy for any length of time? I can't even think of one.

Mark Hall wrote:

bigbobsr6000 wrote:American Proverb "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Actually, I believe that was said by Voltaire, who was French.

Thanks, the source I checked had it listed as an "American Proverb." Further research, thanks to your suggestion, revealed the following.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.

Another possible source for the quote was proposed by Norbert Guterman, editor of "A Book of French Quotations," who noted a letter to M. le Riche (February 6, 1770) in which Voltaire is quoted as saying: "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" ("Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire"). This remark, however, does not appear in the letter.

Thanks for your input, Mark.

Alejandro wrote:

Evil Psychologist wrote:Check the murder statistic for St. Louis in 2007, then come back to talk to me about anarchy.

Ciao.

Sooooo, it's the 2nd most dangerous city back in 2007 and somehow that means anarchy is imminent? A city in America that has a murder rate nowhere near Mogadishu, any place in Sierra Leone, or Darfur....and yet that's somehow supposed to equate to anarchy. Do you have any idea what you're saying in trying to compare a dangerous city in America, a remarkably safe nation by worldwide standards, to absolute lack of government?

This is bad comedy.

Not to mention that something tells me he ain't posting from east Saint Louis.

It has been stated: "History is written by the victors."

'nuff said.

Cleaning up the world may not be an easy job, but someones got to do it. I'm for native Terran culture, and Terra being controled by humans, it's our home planet after all! If I was living in Rifts earth, I'd most likely join up witht the CS. I like security. I'm not about slaughtering D-bee children and so-called innocents that were braught here against their will and are trapped, but the rest of the Xenos have got to go. And those magic using heretics that tap into the power/essance of the Old Ones. No good can ultimately come from that. Belief in the Emperor's vision and humanity. That's the way to go.

"There is no innocent, only varying degrees of guilt." - The Inquisition

Jerell wrote:Cleaning up the world may not be an easy job, but someones got to do it. I'm for native Terran culture, and Terra being controled by humans, it's our home planet after all! If I was living in Rifts earth, I'd most likely join up witht the CS. I like security. I'm not about slaughtering D-bee children and so-called innocents that were braught here against their will and are trapped, but the rest of the Xenos have got to go. And those magic using heretics that tap into the power/essance of the Old Ones. No good can ultimately come from that. Belief in the Emperor's vision and humanity. That's the way to go.

"There is no innocent, only varying degrees of guilt." - The Inquisition

Are you
a) living in Australia or the Americas

and

b) not one of the native peoples of that continent?

If so, you may wish to take a moment to step back and appreciate the irony.

The problem I have with joining anything like clubs, orgnaziations, the CS is: "I could never join anything that would have a person like me for a member."

Good point. I love history, I think about it often. I see what you mean, though I think it is different somewhat. I'm concerned more with planetism than nationalism. I do think the treatment of the native populations was one of the two great failings of the early United States however.

I like to think of the CS more like the people that threw back a massive barbarian invasion like the Huns or perhaps Mongols.

Perhaps I should say that the CS controling N.A. is manifest destiney? Although the situation is much different.

Still, I understand what you mean. I just think humanity needs to pull together and be rid of Xenos influence. That and the CS needs to put a 'fence of sunlight' along the Rio Grande, to stop those illegal Vampires from comming in.

Evil Psychologist wrote:The places I spend time in around St. Louis, cops avoid. People drive like maniacs because they know they won't get pulled over, people shoot heroin and smoke pot in plain view, people sell guns outside of liquor stores and crimes go unsolved because no-one will cooperate with any body of authority.

Same could be said for just about any city anywhere in the world of enough population. This does not give you a unique perspective, nor does it give you a true understanding of what a real lawless society looks like.

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Who are you trying to convince, me, or you?

Just because you "say" that we live in a civilized society does not mean that every facet of it is civilized, or governed to the letter of the law. Agree, disagree, whatever.

Well now, that's quite a different animal altogether. Of course not everything is to the letter of the law. But that is also not evidence that St. Louis is in a state of anarchy, not even close. I'm starting to think that word does not mean what you think it means.

That's the truth as I know it to be, and if you want to waste some more time trying to mock me or convince me otherwise.. have fun.

I am not trying to convince you of anything, but I do have fun posting on the boards.

I've explained myself quite satisfactorily and done so appropriately instead of relying upon cheap insulting tactics such as implying you are ignorant and a clown.

I cannot show you to be ignorant, I can only point out things I disagree on. If during the course of that conversation you are shown to be ignorant, that is not an insult, its a chance to grow.

If that's where this conversation is going, you are talking to yourselves from now on.

That's cool. This conversation is already there. It was there the moment you implied that Saint Louis is in a state of anarchy.

I live in the South City now and work in east St. Louis, as a matter of fact.

Awesome. I grew up in Memphis and worked in Orange Mound. Does that mean I have anarchy cred too?

According to Webster

anarchy
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler. Date: 1539
1 a: absence of government b: a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c: a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government 2 a: absence or denial of any authority or established order b: absence of order : DISORDER <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>

anarchism
Function: noun
Date: 1642
1 : a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups 2 : the advocacy or practice of anarchistic principles

Evil Psychologist wrote:

Well now, that's quite a different animal altogether. Of course not everything is to the letter of the law. But that is also not evidence that St. Louis is in a state of anarchy, not even close. I'm starting to think that word does not mean what you think it means.

Quite simply it means without government. Are we clear on this?

We are now, and that's why your example is bollocks. Even in the most crime ridden hovel in the worst ghetto in this nation anarchy is a foriegn concept. Whether the cops patrol the streets is only one facet of government. Others include trade between states and nations that provide the people the ability to buy their food. Government clinics, welfare, medicaid, social security, the streets they walk on, the water they drink, on and on and on. All these things are counter to any claims of anarchy. We can argue about their effectiveness. We can argue about their intent. But they are functions of government. What you are describing is not anarchy, it is out of control criminal activity. And really its not out of control, its simply confined to an area, which is regretable but also not anarchy.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Evil Psychologist wrote:

Well now, that's quite a different animal altogether. Of course not everything is to the letter of the law. But that is also not evidence that St. Louis is in a state of anarchy, not even close. I'm starting to think that word does not mean what you think it means.

Quite simply it means without government. Are we clear on this?

We are now, and that's why your example is bollocks. Even in the most crime ridden hovel in the worst ghetto in this nation anarchy is a foriegn concept. Whether the cops patrol the streets is only one facet of government. Others include trade between states and nations that provide the people the ability to buy their food. Government clinics, welfare, medicaid, social security, the streets they walk on, the water they drink, on and on and on. All these things are counter to any claims of anarchy. We can argue about their effectiveness. We can argue about their intent. But they are functions of government. What you are describing is not anarchy, it is out of control criminal activity. And really its not out of control, its simply confined to an area, which is regretable but also not anarchy.

A hand with a loose grip does NOT equal no hand at all.

Evil Psychologist wrote:We will not agree on this. My example is just fine, and short of all your little fringe benefits such government clinics, welfare, medicaid, social security, the streets they walk on, the water they drink, on and on and on I could do without quite successfully and already do for the most part.

Yeah, I guess if you discount the effects of the government, then it does look like anarchy.

Evil Psychologist wrote:We will not agree on this. My example is just fine, and short of all your little fringe benefits such government clinics, welfare, medicaid, social security, the streets they walk on, the water they drink, on and on and on I could do without quite successfully and already do for the most part.

So if we ignore all the things that make up a functioning government (you know, the "fringe benefits" like clean water and cheap food) and if we only focus on police enforcement of the law, and if we confine everything to several blocks in a part of Saint Louis, then yea, I guess your example is fine. But you are right, since I can't just forget about all those other things government does, we won't agree on this.

After all, all this argument springs from how I would handle the coalition, doesn't it? Your question has been answered. I would do just fine, and I'd be quite happy with the freedom.

Maybe initially, but this particular tangent comes from your response to the question of how you "know anarchy", which was:

Check the murder statistic for St. Louis in 2007, then come back to talk to me about anarchy.

Hmmm...

I think if anarchy was really previlent in the U.S. It wouldn't stay that way for long. Given the absence of a Government I believe a lot of the Armed Forces with whoever wanted to go along with them would eventually band together with and form a kind of despotism or Feudal system. Maybe like the CS, I suppose. I could see that happening, but only if Americans lost heart and their way. Gave up on the concept of government by consent of the people and all that. Without a strong sense of nationalism I believe people would band together either by cities, or neighborhoods or families/clans. And someone would end up establishing their dominance and their rule, which is why I think the ones trained in war, and possessing the best weapons would come out the best off, from a temporary anarchical situation.

But enough of that.

Back to the real subject-

"People can believe in the CS if nothing else and that is their true power, the faith and hope of millions of humans lost in a world of chaos."

Whoever said that originaly, I give that statement credit. I think I'm going to put that in my signature.

Ya the only time I can think of where anarchy actually worked within the modern era was in Ukrraine post World War 1 pre World War 2 they had a functioning community and all then Stalin came in and ionvaded them in a day since they could not agree on forming a army

One question.... What is your theivery, streetwise, and wilderness survival levels at? 35%ish?

just kidding

Yea Coalition! Woot!

Jerell wrote:One question.... What is your theivery, streetwise, and wilderness survival levels at? 35%ish?

just kidding

Yea Coalition! Woot!

I'll have you know that as a man of the cloth, I never engage in any of those vile pastimes

However you can join me and the other chaplains at our weekly poker game But it's Chaplain Rosses turn to bring the hookers, booze and drugs,lol jo/j

Alejandro wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:Numbers are in the CS favor so far.

Only one in 4 would attack CS personnel. Good numbers considering how many people play magic and d-bee PC's.

That's because the ones who will shoot at the CS play the CS like a bunch of backwoods retards who don't use any kind of military tactics. If you play the CS like a professional military and actually use what the CS has available....well, people don't shoot at the CS and hope to live; even if they're dragon hatch lings or battle magi.

Then what about non-C.S. personnel being play with some military tactics are you saying they can't match up. Just a question for me to try and understand.

Alejandro wrote:

Xenogears wrote:

Alejandro wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:Numbers are in the CS favor so far.

Only one in 4 would attack CS personnel. Good numbers considering how many people play magic and d-bee PC's.

That's because the ones who will shoot at the CS play the CS like a bunch of backwoods retards who don't use any kind of military tactics. If you play the CS like a professional military and actually use what the CS has available....well, people don't shoot at the CS and hope to live; even if they're dragon hatch lings or battle magi.

Then what about non-C.S. personnel being play with some military tactics are you saying they can't match up. Just a question for me to try and understand.

Alrighty, I'll elaborate.

If played correctly like an actual military force, the CS would never send just 2-4 grunts wandering around on their own. Your average player group is 3-5 people. The only time you'd ever encounter anything less than a full squad of 10-12 soldiers would be if one or two got separated. In such a case, sure it would be an easy task to eliminate them. However, soldiers are never sent out in such small numbers unless they're rangers or special forces, and if they were you wouldn't be running into them unless they wanted you to.

The Coalition army is based on the old American Empire army, and as such it's relatively easy to assume that their troop formations would remain the same. 10 to a squad, 5 squads a platoon. I stop there because no player group short of demi-gods or full adult dragons would stand up against more than 40 heavily armed CS soldiers. It's just not going to happen....especially with the new CS war machine in place.

Now let's say you do find a squad on patrol. If you initiate combat there is a supremely powerful weapon that all CS troops have that player groups don't 9/10 times (unless they're running their own mercenary company).....a radio to call in reinforcements or air strikes. Given the exceptional speed and maneuverability of SAMAS suits, air support is only a radio call away, as is any form of a missile artillery barrage. Given the range of most CS short and medium range missiles, batteries can remain safely hidden on a CS base/fort and still fire just as accurately as if they were down the street. On average, a platoon would most likely have 2 squads out and 3 squads back at a set up base camp (if the platoon was on its own from the company it was attached to) which would mean that the other squad of 10 grunts isn't going to be far from the first that you ambushed.

This leaves the players with a dilemma. If they trap and ambush a group of CS soldiers using professional military tactics, the likelihood that they'd be able to destroy all of the soldiers before help could be radiod in is very very low, and even if they are successful in eliminating the entire squad before help arrives, the chances of being able to escape the forces enroute are even less. Almost nil if artillery was called in.

The problem with the CS is that most people play them as thugs and not soldiers. Like rough gangbangers who never heard the word discipline in their lives.

PCs can jam radio signals, if they've the skills.
There goes the SAMAS support.
Also, if you want to play it like a modern military, often radio silence is enforced due to the nature of the op.
Most people play them as thugs because that's how they're described in the books... little more than murderers and rapists.
Thus my description of them being "the gang known as the CS military".
Too, many players' characters have military back-grounds, as do those who play them... marrionette ambushes are as feasable against the CS as anyone, as a for instance.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Most people play them as thugs because that's how they're described in the books... little more than murderers and rapists.
Thus my description of them being "the gang known as the CS military".

Got anything to back that one up?

Jesterzzn wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Most people play them as thugs because that's how they're described in the books... little more than murderers and rapists.
Thus my description of them being "the gang known as the CS military".

Got anything to back that one up?

Read some other threads.
I even posted page numbers...

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Jesterzzn wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Most people play them as thugs because that's how they're described in the books... little more than murderers and rapists.
Thus my description of them being "the gang known as the CS military".

Got anything to back that one up?

Read some other threads.
I even posted page numbers...

Then how about a link to those threads where you post page numbers.

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:57 am Post subject:

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Vrykolas2k wrote:



PCs can jam radio signals, if they've the skills.
There goes the SAMAS support.
Also, if you want to play it like a modern military, often radio silence is enforced due to the nature of the op.
Most people play them as thugs because that's how they're described in the books... little more than murderers and rapists.
Thus my description of them being "the gang known as the CS military".
Too, many players' characters have military back-grounds, as do those who play them... marrionette ambushes are as feasable against the CS as anyone, as a for instance.
Out of every 4 or 5 PC's I come across, they'll pick Electronic Countermeasures........so few can do it. And most CS operations use encrypted messaging(via Electronic Countermeasures) to prevent jamming and that takes a roll of the dice and at least two hours to decipher(accorrding to RUE) using the skill cryptography which I hardly ever see anybody use.

The CS has been around to learn the tricks of the trade. There's a reason KS uses hit and run tactics in most of the stories involving attacking CS.

I think everyone who thinks the CS policies are super evil should read the first Siege of Tolkeen book 1 that has the timeline up to the war, it will bring a lot into perspective of why they made those policies against magic/d-bees. Humanity over time has been attacked pre-meditatedly be magic/d-bees over and over again while minding their own bussiness......
_________________
"To embrace the inhuman is to lose our humanity
To accept the alien is to lose our identity
To use magic is to forsake technology

Magic and the acceptance of the monstrous, alien, and inhuman is the poison that eats away at our people.

WE ARE HUMAN! WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH! THIS IS OUR WORLD! OURS ALONE!"


This is directed at your last paragraph. Does that mean Jews and gypsies, all over the world should rise up and slaughter anyone of germanic extraction due to the crimes of the Nazi army? I think not. Also, this does apply to the Coaition as well. The coalition's soldiers, are not all evil. Thus, killing them indescriminantly, would be wrong. However. the thing you CS backers seem to conveniently ignore, is the fact that Karl, little joe, and the vast majority of their senior officers are EVIL!

As evil as any demon lord or Splugorth intelligence. The bottom line is this. If something is evil, it doesn't matter what form it takes. It's still evil, and should be taken down by good people of all races. And yes in this instance I'm refering to Sentient beings as people.

How is aberrant evil as evil as any diabolic evil demon lord or Splugorth?

Karl is the only one you mentioned that's like that and even then his writing's all FUBAR because of how his alignment's described and yet how his bio is done. I wish they'd just make up their mind what Karl was supposed

Pg. 39. Atlantis: Splynncryth... Anarchist allighnment. LMAO Not even evil! Consider that arguement done. Hmm, I bet if you strated making lists, I'm sure you'd find quite a few generals, colonels, and majors of the Coalition army who are miscreant or diabolic, as well as aberant. And make no mistake, aberant is still evil. No matter what the individual's "code of honor" may be. I always thought it was pretty cut and dry. Karl was written as a megalomaniac.

K20A2_S... Now as to your arguement sir.

"Now, we all know the CS doesn't go on just killing sprees of d-bees, b/c they know there's a small balance that they can only attack at one time. But like the war against terrorism now.............now all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims............relate that to d-bees and magic users now.......not all are evil and want the death of CS, but most people that are evil and want the death of CS are d-bee/magic users."

We know they don't go on killing sprees? Perhaps not frequently, but yes they do. It's been printed. It's cannon coalition squads have gone into peaceful db villages, and slaughtered them man woman and child. I'm not going to search through all my books to find examples. Don't believe me? Ask a long time PB employee like Alex, or maybe Kev himself. The coalition won the Tolkeen offensive, because KS knows he has a good villain, and kept them around. But a villainous force they are.

Jay05 wrote:We know they don't go on killing sprees? Perhaps not frequently, but yes they do. It's been printed. It's cannon coalition squads have gone into peaceful db villages, and slaughtered them man woman and child. I'm not going to search through all my books to find examples. Don't believe me? Ask a long time PB employee like Alex, or maybe Kev himself. The coalition won the Tolkeen offensive, because KS knows he has a good villain, and kept them around. But a villainous force they are.

Seconded. It's been written as cannon several times in different books. Not to mention the D-Bee interment camps that they operated during the Toklien crisis.

It's as I stated before, and your arguement still holds no water. Evil is evil, it doesn't matter if the evil comes from a multi tentacled alien intelligence, a winged, horned demon, or a human. Evil actions are evil actions! And again the coalition supporters ignore this.

And as Idid state earlier not every coalition soldier is evil. Of that there is no question. However, the principles on which the current regime bases it's policies and laws are EVIL. The government of old Chi-Town, during the life of Joseph the 1st had a vastly different view. And before you go off on

"And see where that got them"

I'll remind you that the events which led to Joseph the 1st's death, and Chi-Town's eventual human supremacist turn, were the direct result of Nostrus Dunscon, father of Alistair Dunscon, the leader of the only Truly evil magic based faction in north America.

Which to my knowledge, unless events in "siege on tolkeen aftermath" changed this still stands! Of course that's the way K S wanted things, but from a governmental standpoint, it makes little sense to destroy a reletively peaceful kingdom, when you KNOW, the remnants of the force which caused the human supremacist turn is elsewhere.

Unless of course your aim is nothing short of genocide. Which with out question is, and here comes that word again... EVIL!

And thanks for the affirmation of my other point Sureshot.

I went back and added further thought to my previous post, but you posted your reply before I was done.

Jay05 wrote:It's as I stated before, and your arguement still holds no water. Evil is evil, it doesn't matter if the evil comes from a multi tentacled alien intelligence, a winged, horned demon, or a human. Evil actions are evil actions! And again the coalition supporters ignore this.

And as Idid state earlier not every coalition soldier is evil. Of that there is no question. However, the principles on which the current regime bases it's policies and laws are EVIL. The government of old Chi-Town, during the life of Joseph the 1st had a vastly different view. And before you go off on

"And see where that got them"

I'll remind you that the events which led to Joseph the 1st's death, and Chi-Town's eventual human supremacist turn, were the direct result of Nostrus Dunscon, father of Alistair Dunscon, the leader of the only Truly evil magic based faction in north America.

Which to my knowledge, unless events in "siege on tolkeen aftermath" changed this still stands! Of course that's the way K S wanted things, but from a governmental standpoint, it makes little sense to destroy a reletively peaceful kingdom, when you KNOW, the remnants of the force which caused the human supremacist turn is elsewhere.

Unless of course your aim is nothing short of genocide. Which with out question is, and here comes that word again... EVIL!

And thanks for the affirmation of my other point Sureshot.

Your argument seems to be based on the concept of alignment as a game mechanic being an accurate portrayal of the fictionalized morality being described in the fluff text (Damn that sounds confusing). Al's point is that from that perspective of the fictional morality, the Coalition leadership's alignment is an entirely different kind of evil than that of your typical demon or AI. The CS is not some supernatural predator seeking prey, nor are they a trans-dimensional power that views mortals as nothing more than ants. They are a vulnerable nation of natives fighting against a perceived threat of extinction. Now their actions in many cases, and perhaps their fascist government, might be evil in terms of the game mechanics (you only have eight choices), but in relative terms many of the forces they are fighting against are far more "evil."

As you stated "Many of the forces" May be as evil, or perhaps more so. But it does not excuse their policy of and I am simplifying in the vernacular here "If it's a non human or db, capture and interrogate it, or kill it out right." And that is indeed their policy.

Because not all db's or non humans or magic users, or even all supernatual being are evil, wishing the end of the human race. Most would rather be left alone. And in fact, many are good beings who hold all life, including humans as important and precious.

The other thing is this, nowhere in any of the rifts related books I've read is any force of non humans working toward human genocide with the two exceptions of the vamps in the south, and the Xiticix in the north.And none coming after the coalition specifically. And it's pretty
easy to tell those two forces from db's of any type that might be in the area. Yet the coalition attacks and harrasses fairly indescriminantly.

And that's something else that gets me about pro-coalition types. You'll constantly say "Because it's a different world, it's not the same as it would be in the real world."

My point is good an evil are immutable concepts. There are always grey areas. But truely evil acts, don't suddenly become less evil simply because "We know we're right!"

And don't misunderstand me. In my oppinion, killing in self defence, in defence of those who cannot defend themselves, or in defence of one's land is not evil.

And before someone says "Well, the earth is ours, so it's all our property because we're human" read Spirit west, and Australia. The native people of those lands accept peaceful db's, and judge people by their actions.

And then of course, someone's going to say "But they've been tainted by the evil that is magic." That's one of the lamest arguements I've ever heard.

Well said.

Thank you

Jay05 wrote:As you stated "Many of the forces" May be as evil, or perhaps more so. But it does not excuse their policy of and I am simplifying in the vernacular here "If it's a non human or db, capture and interrogate it, or kill it out right." And that is indeed their policy.

Right.

Because not all db's or non humans or magic users, or even all supernatual being are evil, wishing the end of the human race.

Right.

Most would rather be left alone. And in fact, many are good beings who hold all life, including humans as important and precious.

Uh, no. Most are evil predators bent on satisfying their own selfish and evil lusts. Some have the capicity for good, but then so do most in the Coalition.

The other thing is this, nowhere in any of the rifts related books I've read is any force of non humans working toward human genocide with the two exceptions of the vamps in the south, and the Xiticix in the north.And none coming after the coalition specifically. And it's pretty
easy to tell those two forces from db's of any type that might be in the area. Yet the coalition attacks and harrasses fairly indescriminantly.

Those are the only two that border the Coalition, but the Gargoyle Empire, Brodkill Empire, and Pheonix Empire are not exactly hippy peace nicks that just want to be left alone. And those are nothing compared to the might of Splynn which would destroy humanity just as soon as look at them should it suit their purpose. It just happens that Atlantis sees the human nations as being good for business.

At this point your post degrades into strawman...

And that's something else that gets me about pro-coalition types. You'll constantly say "Because it's a different world, it's not the same as it would be in the real world."

After strawman...

And before someone says "Well, the earth is ours, so it's all our property because we're human" read Spirit west, and Australia. The native people of those lands accept peaceful db's, and judge people by their actions.

After strawman...

And then of course, someone's going to say "But they've been tainted by the evil that is magic." That's one of the lamest arguements I've ever heard.

Evil Psychologist wrote:

Jay05 wrote:It's as I stated before, and your arguement still holds no water. Evil is evil, it doesn't matter if the evil comes from a multi tentacled alien intelligence, a winged, horned demon, or a human. Evil actions are evil actions! And again the coalition supporters ignore this.

First of all, I'd like to take this opportunity to chew on my foot for returning to this thread in the first place.

Secondly, I'd like to take this opportunity to shoot myself in the foot for putting your argument here to the grindstone in any way, because ultimately I agree with a lot of what you have to say and in fact I voted anti-coalition for my own reasons.

Thirdly, I've got to put my foot down about this issue of evil = evil. I agree that wholesale genocide is just about as evil as you can get short of throwing some rape and pillage into the mix. I'm sure that would happen too; just as evil supernatural intelligences exist out there who deal in it for a lively little pastime, so does the Coalition craft it as policy and execute it in practice, depending on whether you count D-Bees as sentient beings worthy of justice in the first place. I know the CS certainly doesn't.

Although I hail from a more morally ambiguous mindset, I understand that the pro-coalition folks view the situation as choosing the lesser evil. The hypothetical conundrum here is what if you personally were to find yourself in RIFTS: how would you handle the coalition? Assuming you are a moral kind of guy, I see you choose the golden road here and write all evil off as evil; no means will justify the end.

That's all well and good, but take the CS out of the equation in North America and you would not witness angels and good-hearted Dee-Bees rushing to aid the squishy little humans who treated them so poorly. Violence begets violence, but also you must consider that the CS is what stands between many innocent human women and children and well... everything else. The truly ideal heroes of that particular world are few and far between.

So could you honestly stand so fervently against them knowing that if you were to somehow succeed, all those innocent lives are lost as well? It's not quite accurate to compare this situation to WWII Germany and Hitler. Hitler wasn't fighting hordes of aliens of every creed and capability in a desperate battle to prevent the genocide of the German people.

..and if he were, would you be prepared to criticize him for killing the innocent aliens along with the guilty? How about the ones which may be guilty? The ones which try to subvert his control?

It's easy for me to say I'd go against them because I'm not operating under the pretense of being an idealist in that situation in the first place.

But I am curious how you'd propose to save all the innocent humans as well as the innocent D-Bees. I'm sure that in your morally intact perspective, every life has equal value.

In a situation where the Coalition as a whole were to fall, the humans living in and around the major coalition strongholds, Chi-Town, Lonestar etc, would certainly be in a great deal of danger, but honestly, I do believe, that in the case of a radical invasion of North America by an evil force ie Atlantis, or more likely what we may see, the warring factions of Hades and Dyval that you would see db's of every stripe fighting to repel said demons, whether the Coalition survived or not. And there are enough good alligned creatures out there who would fight along side the humans that humanity would survive. There would be losses certainly, but humans would go on.

Something else now: when I said I believed the Coalition needs to be brought down, I meant the current political regime, not the citizenry, I think a new government would be more tolerant, therefore elimitating the greatest reasons for my issues with them.

And as for whether or not I could condemn them if I found myself on Rifts Earth? I wouldn't have a chance to condemn them. Because on the premise that I'm not aware of the state of affairs in this dimension, I'd probably let it slip in my confusion that I'm from 2008. At which point I'd be interrogated and promptly be imprisoned, and possibly excecuted. Because as we all know, even normal humans from other dimensions are condemed as db's.

And as as far as saving everyone, either human or db in a situation where an inhuman force invades North America casualties are inevitable.

I do not believe the Coalition in their current incarnation are integral to humanity's survival. A more tolerant government wouldn't be nessessarily be less effective.

Daunlander wrote:Supporting evil is committing evil!

Which is why smart citizens report d-bees and magic-users to the authorities.

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:The CS reminds me too much of nazis. My grandmother told me how bad things were with them around. Always in my groups with my husband, the only CS characters were what you would call "reformed".

You made them hippies like lazlonians

No, the characters were warriors; they just weren't nazis anymore.

CS soldiers were never nazi.

dark brandon wrote:

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:The CS reminds me too much of Nazis. My grandmother told me how bad things were with them around. Always in my groups with my husband, the only CS characters were what you would call "reformed".

You made them hippies like lazlonians

No, the characters were warriors; they just weren't Nazis anymore.

CS soldiers were never Nazi.

But they are Nazi like right.

Xenogears wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:The CS reminds me too much of Nazis. My grandmother told me how bad things were with them around. Always in my groups with my husband, the only CS characters were what you would call "reformed".

You made them hippies like lazlonians

No, the characters were warriors; they just weren't Nazis anymore.

CS soldiers were never Nazi.

But they are Nazi like right.

I've explained why the CS are not like nazi's before. I just don't feel like repeating myself again...Sorry.

CS can do no wrong in the defense of North America! Most of the D-Bee know North America is under CS rule. Too get caught by the CS is a death sentence to magic users and non-humans. I think the CS is quit accepting compare how human race treats it's own kind right now. In Africa homeless children are killed by the police, Burma is a war zone and wearing the wrong hat in LA can get u killed by gangs. Religion & racial differences can cause wars and hate crimes at a drop of a hat, then add in wealth and the poor earth is not friendly place to visit. Now after an apocalypse when human population is nearly wiped out and have invading creatures is not going to bring out humanity's friendly side. I think the CS would be even more harsh in dealing with non-humans than the book describes.

K20A2_S wrote:State why you do also, or why you don't.

As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..

An as such They are as ruthless as thier potrayed in every book thier in ..

As a player ..
I stay out of thier way only
because to take them out I would have to make a deal with archie ( who would simply kill me instead )

I usually play either a Psionisist .. Mystic Knight ... or a Borg head hunter .
In all cases my character's are known by the CS an hunted by them as thier bounty on thier heads is enough to make most turn against me