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Alrik Vas wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

ZK, I'm okay with that, but much of the argument here is that evil is a quantifiable force in Palladium's reality. Alignment is attributed to beings, labeling them and condemning them by the system, which doesn't care about circumstance.

It's very binary.

Which is why I prefer actual morality and ethics to be applied instead.

Doesn't sound like it, since you keep trying to argue that morally and unethically wrong things aren't, or that actual morality and ethics aren't being applied when they are. Or do you think somehow that 'it is wrong to kill people and take what is theirs simply because they aren't human' isn't somehow an expression of actual morality and ethics?

Also no it's not that binary, it does have grey to it but there are things that there is no grey to, that you cannot do and continue to insist that you're actually a good person or that your nation is good. You cannot morally, in game or out, declare an entire group or nation 'evil' simply for existing and that their land belongs to you because only you have a right to it, then actively work to kill them to the last man, woman, and child and qualify as good people. That is neither moral nor ethical and there is no wiggle room to try and claim that somehow you're in the right for that attitude, that's simply evil making excuses for its evil.

You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil.

Can it?
Should it?

Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing.

Cool.
So... ARE sharks evil?

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Zer0 Kay wrote:It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

Could totally see this happening. How many weapons do demons have to compete with their 4d6/4000ft person-energy-powered sniper rifles (probably with bullets that are silent and invisible, how I tend to think of TK blasts) which can be fired as they fly above all kinds of ground-bound troops? Xiticix basically have long-term-inexhaustible JA-12s.

Mechghost wrote:Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

This would be an interesting to try out, want to make a 'Number of CS vs Number of all other North Americans" thread?

Might be worth noting that Society of Sages and Vanguard also have anti-D-bee stances, that FQ/NG also aren't super friendly to magic or D-Bees, that Kingdom of Brass probably isn't fond of education for the masses they want to raise as worshippers/sacrifices, that Soulharvest is probably anti-everyone, and that Pecos Empire is only for education/magic for themselves to rob you better, they wouldn't want the people they were planning on robbing to have enough of that to protect themselves, maybe only a small amount so they can produce more stuff to rob.

Tor wrote:Might be worth noting that Society of Sages and Vanguard also have anti-D-bee stances

It's never worth noting anything about the Vanguard. Their numbers are too small and they are spread too thin to matter for anything other than a Burbs adventure.

If my search-foo were better, I'd give you a link to the thread I started earlier this year about their pathetic numbers.

--flatline

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Do the math.

You'd need to beat about 17 million.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Do the math.

You'd need to beat about 17 million.

We would need to know how many of the various D-Bees there are. Since we know that there are some really large populations of some of them (like the Slumph)
We would also need the figures for the populations of the areas that are not under CS control (are the millions of CS people in their little cities and towns abnormal or is that the norm.....we don't know)
And we would need a complete listing of the cities (and their populations) for North America

None of which is available.

Human opinion the majority?

Invade their land, breed faster.

Now you are the majority, you are right.

Beginning to wonder if there is any relevance even if CS policies WERE in the minority.

If Nxla made everyone Xombies, he would be the majority. If all humans and d-bees got turned to vamps, blood farms would be the majority.

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Do the math.

You'd need to beat about 17 million.

We would need to know how many of the various D-Bees there are. Since we know that there are some really large populations of some of them (like the Slumph)
We would also need the figures for the populations of the areas that are not under CS control (are the millions of CS people in their little cities and towns abnormal or is that the norm.....we don't know)
And we would need a complete listing of the cities (and their populations) for North America

None of which is available.

Just total up all the non-CS populations that you can find.
And keep in mind that 17 million is probably the low end.

Perhaps as a base we can start with the number of non Psi-Hound non-humans living in the Coalition States, since they probably would not share anti-Dbee views.

Funny thing is: I'm not even sure we can count the entire populations of places like Lazlo. You could have non-mages with anti-mage views in those places. Maybe they had nowhere else to go, or their opinions changed over time due to power abuses. Same with d-bee views.

Alrik Vas wrote:See, Pepsi, I agree more or less with what you're saying. Eliakon's argument is that morality isn't subjective in Rifts on account of the alignment system.

It's subjective in that one must define things that are, well open to debate. "Will never take dirty money" well what's dirty money? money taken from a crime? Money made legally by criminals? If it was legal, but made by criminals is that dirty? If they steal from criminals is that dirty? etc

Many of Palladium's "Alignment" points ay "Will never' or "Will always" and what not. In that, he's not wrong. It's often not subjective.

That said, it -is- broken. By Palladium's system Superman is Aberrant evil at the very best Maybe Anrchist if you stretch it. (Not trying to convert. Palladium's own books cite Superman, they just put him in the wrong place) By the alignment systems rules of 'Will never" or "Will always" (And other such wordings) Even the paragon of good and right, falls way down the alignment chart.

Thus they're broken.

Being honest it's kinda silly though. When discussing a population of millions you're not really discussing alignment designations. "Good" and "Evil" are used more openly in the traditional sense. (Yes I'm aware the section itself even goes on to say most CS citizens fall into good or selfish alignments, but it's still rather silly)

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

eliakon wrote:Not really.....remember the majority of these people were here before the CS went all Evil Empire on people. Blaming people for living in their city is like saying "Well those Russians should have just moved away, its their fault that they got killed by the Nazis".....
Its blaming the victim for the actions of the abuser and then saying that they had the gall to not give their victimizer what they wanted "Gee if they had just given that mugger their money they wouldn't have been shot"....which soon becomes "Well if they hadn't lived in the same town as that known sex offender they wouldn't have been raped".....
This is the fault of the CS and trying to shift the blame to the victims is disingenuous at best.

That's enough words in my mouth, thank you.

Besides, who guarantees rights in Rifts, and who has authority to do so? When it comes down to it, you fight for your claim, or you choose non-violence and flee or submit yourself to the aggressor's mercy. How am I saying the CS is in the right and d-bees should leave and that it's their fault for being there? I pointed out facts in the situation, those being that the CS is murdering their way across NA and that people who stay in the way fight, flee or submit. How is it the victim's fault? How are you getting that I'm saying it's their fault when I literally said, "it isn't always the settler's fault"...?

Pointing out that they can move away doesn't make the CS right, what I AM saying is that things aren't so simple when you built a farm on land an enemy lays claim to, no matter who that enemy is.

The argument that Tolkeen (which as a nation btw existed before the CS was formed....) should move because the CS says that the now own that land is ludicrous.
The argument that a D-Bee villiag that has existed for centuries should move because someone moves in and thinks that they have claim to the land is silly.
And what is sillier is that somehow that not moving means that the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. They don't. At least in Palladium they don't, because in the Palladium universe we can look at what the definition of good and evil are and see where stealing lies......

Tolkeen was a city, that had dimensional beings that had invaded earth. Humans were not saying the lad was 'now' theirs. They were establishing that Earth was -always- theirs.

The Dbee village, even if it's been around for centuries, are still squatting on OUR planet. Your logic is akin to a guy out in Montanna that has 1000s of acres of land, and finds out there's a house off up in the woods some where he doesn't often go, and moves to evict the squatters on his land. That's great if your house has been there for years, but that doesn't make it your land by default. Your'e still tresspassing.

As for the comment about not moving means the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. Noone was saying the aggressor had moral authority because they were the aggressor. ther CS were taking back 'stolen' land. The 'You didn't run so you're dumb' comes from the fact that.... they didn't run and were dumb. Right or wrong, everyone told them they'd get trounced. The other magic nations told Tolkeen straight up "Even if we all united, which would never happen, the CS would -still win-. Your battle is useless, You will fight and die and the CS will not care. You won't win any moral victory, because you'll be dead. Those that don't like the CS won't dislike them more. They already dislike them. It just means you'll be dead. When you CAN run from a losing battle, and don't, you're stupid. There wasn't even any moral reason to fight the battle. Annihilation was assured. More over Tolkeen dove into evil to -try- and survive the battle everyone told them they'd lose. The argument that they 'had to' is what's silly. You don't 'have' to become evil because you're attacked. Tolkeen could have run. Relocated. Hid. They could have chosen to fight, but fight honorably with out devolving into evil. They did none of those. They -chose- instead to fully embrace evil in their attempt to kill the CS. That was the choice they made.

So let me get this straight a kingdom with human leaders who have right to the land according to you allows and sells land to dimensional beings looses all rights to the land because they allowed non humans to buy it?

lol Noone sold Tolkeen the land they built their city on.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Now then did the CS or its citizens every control or have dead to such land. (kind of hard to prove.)

The CS are the bastion of humanity in NA. Theearth has always been Humans. By default, "Alien Dimensional Beings" aka DBees are not from earth. They don't have such a claim. Humanity does. It's not hard to prove. Earth was always humans. The Dbees are at the absolute best, inadvertant beings tresspassing here, at worst, intentional invaders. Even people not meaning to tesspass are still guilty of it when they do. It's not the land(or planet) owner's fault if someone tresspasses.

Blue_Lion wrote:
You are claiming that they have rights to it just because it is where there ancestors came from even if there ancestors never owned the land in question.

It's more than that. The earth has belonged to humanity from the start. Humanity evolved here. The others all come from elsewhere. Just walking into someone's back yard doesn't mean it's now yours. Even if their house is on fire.

Blue_Lion wrote:
You are also making a false statement that they are invaders as not all D-bees are invaders, many where trapped on earth by the rifts that humans caused, others where summoned, some where even invited by the nation that ruled the area of land at the time. A group trapped on earth do to the actions of humans are not invaders.

I've been pretty clear about pointing out that they're invaders at worst, or trespassers at the best. You should read closer.

Blue_Lion wrote: And lets check a nation on earth with human leadership is attacked and conquered by CS because the land belongs to humans and the CS are reclaiming stolen land. That means they are retaking land from humans or land that was sold/traded by humans.

Human nations take over other nations all the time. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here is? The CS don't go out and invade human nations due to claims of preownership of the planet. For the most part the human nations(Using the term lightly to pertain to cities or at the very best a state) petition to join the CS. lol

Blue_Lion wrote:

You really need to take off that rose colored helmet take a look at your propaganda from another stand point.

What other stand point? The stand point of aliens on Earth claiming land belongs to them because they happen to be standing on it? Well if might makes right they can try, but seems like most everyone that tries that against the CS has lost (Eventually). If their logic is "It's mine because I took it" then where's the moral problem in the CS taking it 'from' them under the same claim?

"It's not our fault we're here" Doesn't really hold water either. Sure, many Dbees didn't 'willfully' come through rifts, but they're still here. it's not humanity's fault they effectively got lost and stumbled onto our planet. There's no moral obligation to ceed land and territory to trespassing vagrants.

It's not that hard a concept to understand really.By nature of coming from other dimensions, this isn't their homeworld. They have no right to claim ownership.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

That was my point it was a nation led by humans that the CS attacked and claimed land from as part of their reclaiming land for humanity campaign. Giving that the nation was led by human it was not land stolen from humans, defeats that the CS was just reclaiming stolen land.

Tolkeen was attacked due to the -threat- it posed to the CS. For the protection of humanity from the threat, that the CS turned out to be, in the end 100% correct, that tolkeen was.

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Yah, but the point of the Tolkeen war is that neither side was good. Both sides could be portrayed as the antagonist or protagonist.

Baby killing human supremacists vs demon summoning arrogance.

Whoever had more force to enforce won.

The Tolkeen was isn't that simplistic. Tolkeen was certainly good to start

This statement is dependant on where you determin "The start' to be. In the first rifts book they were said to be good. That stated, they were no where remotely even with in eyesight of 'good' at the start of the war. By the actual start of the war itself, tolkeen had gone evil and been evil for quite some time.

and the CS was ALWAYS evil [/quote]

This statement is given as 'fact' but the nature of this thread shows that it's far from fact. More over it stipulates that no change can come in the future. bnoth of wich are false. The -current- leadership of the CS is mostly evil, but the people who number into the millions are 'good'.

Nightmask wrote: but what we saw was the slow slide in morality that can occur due to war as Tolkeen went from on the Good side and edged towards Evil as the higher ups did everything they could to protect their people and stop the evil seeking to kill them all and destroy their peaceful way of living.

This is flat out false. There was no 'slow slide in morality'. There was an incredibly steep and purposeful dive into evil. Tolkeen didn't take decades or centuries to go from "Good" To Evil. it was under 10 years. The CS basically said 'You guys are dangerous. We're going to come for you!" and tolkeen went "NU uH!! YOU'LL DIE AND EVERYONE WITH YOU!! MAUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA SUMMON ZEEE DEMONS!!! "

They(Tolkeen) Spent years allying themselves with evil forces, evil supernaturals, and quite literally breaking an army of demons so foul, that the OTHER demons had locked up in demon prision, out to fight for them. Not just every day run of the mill evil demons. Demons so evil that even other demons couldn't stand um. lol. The leadership of tolkeen, look through the book. Evil evil evil evil.

Look through the book that talks about their king's pride and arrogance. How everyone tried to get him to run and instead he wanted to fight and kill the CS. There was no slow slide. Tolkeen saw a threat (A very real one) and threw good out the window so fast it made everyone's head spin. They didn't just embrace evil. They bear hugged it and never let go, and quick too. You say the evil higher ups did what they did to protect the people and stop the CS, but if you read the actual books by the time the war came around that was -not- the motivation at all. They militarized not just to defend, but to destroy the CS. They wanted blood.

Wanted it so bad they spent billions making technowizard weapons and arms for those literal armies of demons they broke out of jail.

There was no 'defense of their peaceful way of life' by the time the war happened. Before the first shot was fired, Tolkeen not only -was- the threat the CS thought they were, they surpassed the threat the CS thought they were.

Nightmask wrote:
They needed more power to fight back with and hold what belonged to them and eventually fell to using demonic help to fight an equally demonic force.

No. They -chose- to seek more power to fight the CS, for the land they had taken for themselves. There's a big difference there. They didn't 'eventually fell to using demonic help" they willingly sought out the demons and busted them out, and allied themselves with demons (and every other evil they could find) To try and win and kill the CS.

When Side A goes "Side B is dangerous! They could wipe out humanity and are evil! We must take them out before we do!"
and Side B Goes "Nu uh!!!" and summons armies of literal demons and such to wipe out side A.....

Side A was clearly right. Side B was dangerous, and they proved to be even more evil than side A had guessed.

Part of the problem with your (very gentle and slanted) representation of Tolkeen, is assuming that Tolkeen had no other option that to 'go evil'.

They did. They -chose- to go evil. They could have run. They could have hid. or they could have fought with honor and with out diving into evil and embracing it.

They did none of those things. Three viable options other than evil (Though one would have meant death anyway, but not dieing an evil nation)

They ----chose---- to embrace evil. That's on them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:What alignment is a shark?

Hungry.

lol

Joking aside I'm pretty sure that's the alignment for a shark in TMNT Goes hollywood...

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Nope. It's not even close. The CS have far more numbers than 'all the others' combined.

It's just that you rarely hear about anything but ChiTown and the military. heck their military is up over 4,000,000 now.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Nope. It's not even close. The CS have far more numbers than 'all the others' combined.

It's just that you rarely hear about anything but ChiTown and the military. heck their military is up over 4,000,000 now.

Actually we don't know. How many Natives are there? On all the Preserves combined plus Modern Natives? There isn't enough info available to definitively state the CS is the only power on the continent.

The CS is not the good guy in my games, some of the people may be good but the State as a whole is not.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Nope. It's not even close. The CS have far more numbers than 'all the others' combined.

It's just that you rarely hear about anything but ChiTown and the military. heck their military is up over 4,000,000 now.

Cool. Can you share the sources you have for the populations of the Federation of Magic, Colorado, Canada, Mexico, Lazlo, All the Reservations, the West Coast, the mutants of Madhaven (total), the psi-stalker tribes, the pecos bandits, the number of feral dog boys, the number and size of all the barbarian tribes in the Dinosaur Swamp, the number of Faire Folk, the number of Slumrph the.....

Oh wait....the only reason we know the population of the CS is that they bother to tell us what it is. We know NOTHING of the population of the rest of the continent. With out which it is just someone making a personal opinion that it is one way or another.

Now if you have a specific, verifiable statement of fact from a book on the population I am all ears. Otherwise it is simply your opinion that the CS outnumbers everyone else.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

That was my point it was a nation led by humans that the CS attacked and claimed land from as part of their reclaiming land for humanity campaign. Giving that the nation was led by human it was not land stolen from humans, defeats that the CS was just reclaiming stolen land.

Tolkeen was attacked due to the -threat- it posed to the CS. For the protection of humanity from the threat, that the CS turned out to be, in the end 100% correct, that tolkeen was.

However, Tolkeen did not embrace the dark forces that the CS feared until after years of anti-Tolkeen military posturing by the CS.

It's kinda like claiming that someone is a dangerous gun lover after they buy a gun to protect themselves from you threatening them about loving guns too much.

Alrik Vas wrote:Are other sea animals innocent? Shark feeds off an injured whale, whale eats plankton. Same with lands animals. Bear eat fish, so so humans. We keep cattle for slaughter.

We eat meat prepared by others. Oh snap, we're all evil unless we fight against it...

Perceptions. You know PETA and SPCA and vegetarians and vegans think were evil for it so, yup. Good, evil mostly perception based.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

ZK, I'm okay with that, but much of the argument here is that evil is a quantifiable force in Palladium's reality. Alignment is attributed to beings, labeling them and condemning them by the system, which doesn't care about circumstance.

It's very binary.

Which is why I prefer actual morality and ethics to be applied instead.

Right, so we either apply the alignment system to countries too or the countries must be based on perception. Those who are claiming that countries can't be based on the alignment system don't get an easy out just because they're not on the alignment system. So the CS is either evil by the alignment system or evil by perception either IG or IRL.

Tor wrote:Perhaps as a base we can start with the number of non Psi-Hound non-humans living in the Coalition States, since they probably would not share anti-Dbee views.

Huh?
The psi-hounds totally share the CS' views.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

ZK, I'm okay with that, but much of the argument here is that evil is a quantifiable force in Palladium's reality. Alignment is attributed to beings, labeling them and condemning them by the system, which doesn't care about circumstance.

It's very binary.

Which is why I prefer actual morality and ethics to be applied instead.

Right, so we either apply the alignment system to countries too or the countries must be based on perception. Those who are claiming that countries can't be based on the alignment system don't get an easy out just because they're not on the alignment system. So the CS is either evil by the alignment system or evil by perception either IG or IRL.

Pretty much everybody is evil by somebody's perception.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:Perhaps as a base we can start with the number of non Psi-Hound non-humans living in the Coalition States, since they probably would not share anti-Dbee views.

Huh?
The psi-hounds totally share the CS' views.

Meaning (non Psi-Hound) non-humans living in the CS.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:Perhaps as a base we can start with the number of non Psi-Hound non-humans living in the Coalition States, since they probably would not share anti-Dbee views.

Huh?
The psi-hounds totally share the CS' views.

Meaning (non Psi-Hound) non-humans living in the CS.

AH!
Yeah, gotcha.

As of 102 PA, there were 10 million non-humans in CS territory. 2.8 million of them were psi-hounds.
It's unclear in SB1 if human psychics were counted among the human or non-human population, but I believe they were counted among the humans for the most part.

Pretty sure psychics count as human mutants.

Alrik Vas wrote:Pretty sure psychics count as human mutants.

The CS seems to flip flop on the subject a bit.....
Sometimes psychics are humans sometimes they are mutants. And sometimes mutants are humans and sometimes they are not.

It appears to be basically "what vision does the current author of this book think"

eliakon wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Pretty sure psychics count as human mutants.

The CS seems to flip flop on the subject a bit.....
Sometimes psychics are humans sometimes they are mutants. And sometimes mutants are humans and sometimes they are not.

It appears to be basically "what vision does the current author of this book think"

Unless you're Quebec, they clearly don't consider them human and while they won't ride them out of the borders on a rail offer a nice 'please leave and never come back' severance package to any identified psychics in their borders.

Mechghost wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Nope. It's not even close. The CS have far more numbers than 'all the others' combined.

It's just that you rarely hear about anything but ChiTown and the military. heck their military is up over 4,000,000 now.

Actually we don't know. How many Natives are there? On all the Preserves combined plus Modern Natives? There isn't enough info available to definitively state the CS is the only power on the continent.

The CS is not the good guy in my games, some of the people may be good but the State as a whole is not.

Lack of information can't be factored in to compare against information had. There could be a billion people in Cali, but we've no information on it, so you can't just factor it in on the other side of the equation. Going 'There might be ____" is great, but it's speculation. You can't go "Ok the CS Has this many but there 'might' be more out there.. we just don't know" and claim that the CS isn't the biggest that we know of. As it is.

When/if there are harder numbers given that can even remotely add up to what the CS has, it'd be one thing, but it's not close at this moment.

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Mechghost wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Are they "the masses" though? If they are then they are the good guys and everyone else is the bad guy? I don't think the CS is big enough to be dictating to the rest of the continent what is right or wrong. Once you add all the "CS free" people up (The Native Preserves, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Dweomer, Psyscape, The Colorado Baronies, The Tundra Rangers etc) I think the CS's anti-magic, anti-D-Bee, anti-education policies may be in the minority.

Nope. It's not even close. The CS have far more numbers than 'all the others' combined.

It's just that you rarely hear about anything but ChiTown and the military. heck their military is up over 4,000,000 now.

Cool. Can you share the sources you have for the populations of the Federation of Magic, Colorado, Canada, Mexico, Lazlo, All the Reservations, the West Coast, the mutants of Madhaven (total), the psi-stalker tribes, the pecos bandits, the number of feral dog boys, the number and size of all the barbarian tribes in the Dinosaur Swamp, the number of Faire Folk, the number of Slumrph the.....

Oh wait....the only reason we know the population of the CS is that they bother to tell us what it is. We know NOTHING of the population of the rest of the continent. With out which it is just someone making a personal opinion that it is one way or another.

Now if you have a specific, verifiable statement of fact from a book on the population I am all ears. Otherwise it is simply your opinion that the CS outnumbers everyone else.

Now, I know you're trying to be snarky and look clever, but to actually answer your query.

Look through all those respective books. Find every number of those populations you can find. Write them down. Then add them up. They won't remotely approach the CS.

Oh? You say they don't have population numbers? Then you don't know how big they are and can't speculate can you?

Seriously. Go through all those books (As you're saying they're bigger than the CS.) Add them all up. See how high you get.

Jefffar wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

That was my point it was a nation led by humans that the CS attacked and claimed land from as part of their reclaiming land for humanity campaign. Giving that the nation was led by human it was not land stolen from humans, defeats that the CS was just reclaiming stolen land.

Tolkeen was attacked due to the -threat- it posed to the CS. For the protection of humanity from the threat, that the CS turned out to be, in the end 100% correct, that tolkeen was.

However, Tolkeen did not embrace the dark forces that the CS feared until after years of anti-Tolkeen military posturing by the CS.

It's kinda like claiming that someone is a dangerous gun lover after they buy a gun to protect themselves from you threatening them about loving guns too much.

ehhhhhhhhhhhh Kinda...

It's more like saying your neighbor is a psychotic gun nut that might kill my kids. and the neighbor who did have guns but wasn't psychotic going, "Oh yeah? Well I'll show you!! and killing your kids, doing nasty sexual things to them, then chopping them up for BBQ.

Remember, tolkeen had other options they chose not to take. They went from 'good' to --REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALY EVIL--- REALLY quick and with gusto, far worse than the CS had even accused them of.

The threat was present. The CS highlighted the threat and yes, did some heavy anti tolkeen military posturing (Straight up threats), but tolkeen took it and ran with it like crazy. I mean the entire nation went crazy sauce over it.

in the end, Tolkeen was exactly what the CS accused them of, worse actually.

The saddest thing of the entire CS/Tolkeen war, was that Tolkeen -used- to be good. They --chose-- to become evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Pretty much everybody is evil by somebody's perception.

Exactly. Have you guys ever heard the 'Carrot juice is murder' song?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

ZK, I'm okay with that, but much of the argument here is that evil is a quantifiable force in Palladium's reality. Alignment is attributed to beings, labeling them and condemning them by the system, which doesn't care about circumstance.

It's very binary.

Which is why I prefer actual morality and ethics to be applied instead.

Right, so we either apply the alignment system to countries too or the countries must be based on perception. Those who are claiming that countries can't be based on the alignment system don't get an easy out just because they're not on the alignment system. So the CS is either evil by the alignment system or evil by perception either IG or IRL.

Pretty much everybody is evil by somebody's perception.

Yup, but it only counts if the majority of people think it, otherwise those calling it out are just crazies.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

That was my point it was a nation led by humans that the CS attacked and claimed land from as part of their reclaiming land for humanity campaign. Giving that the nation was led by human it was not land stolen from humans, defeats that the CS was just reclaiming stolen land.

Tolkeen was attacked due to the -threat- it posed to the CS. For the protection of humanity from the threat, that the CS turned out to be, in the end 100% correct, that tolkeen was.

However, Tolkeen did not embrace the dark forces that the CS feared until after years of anti-Tolkeen military posturing by the CS.

It's kinda like claiming that someone is a dangerous gun lover after they buy a gun to protect themselves from you threatening them about loving guns too much.

ehhhhhhhhhhhh Kinda...

It's more like saying your neighbor is a psychotic gun nut that might kill my kids. and the neighbor who did have guns but wasn't psychotic going, "Oh yeah? Well I'll show you!! and killing your kids, doing nasty sexual things to them, then chopping them up for BBQ.

Remember, tolkeen had other options they chose not to take. They went from 'good' to --REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALY EVIL--- REALLY quick and with gusto, far worse than the CS had even accused them of.

The threat was present. The CS highlighted the threat and yes, did some heavy anti tolkeen military posturing (Straight up threats), but tolkeen took it and ran with it like crazy. I mean the entire nation went crazy sauce over it.

in the end, Tolkeen was exactly what the CS accused them of, worse actually.

The saddest thing of the entire CS/Tolkeen war, was that Tolkeen -used- to be good. They --chose-- to become evil.

I would say that promising to murder every man woman and child in the nation is a bit more than 'military posturing' and 'threats'
And Tolkeens options were always either stay and fight or give in to evil and run away (not really an option for a nation)
Over a decade of building up for the inevitable war they got on a rather slippery moral slope and while they may have started with the best intentions they ended up falling into being just as much of an evil as the CS that they sought to stop.
The sad irony is that Tolkeen being evil turned out to be a self fulfilling prophecy. If the CS had not been trying to murder them all then Tolkeen would not have had to try and find better ways to defend themselves. And thus they would not have had any reason to give into the temptation of demons (note that they didn't start using demons till after they started militarizing and found that mundane magic was insufficient to their needs). I am not condoning the use of dark magic and demons here, just saying that the Tolkeen people would never have used it if they had not thought their lives were in such danger that it seemed to be the only way to save themselves.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil.

Can it?
Should it?

Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing.

Cool.
So... ARE sharks evil?

A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses.

Since the CS are "the masses" of Rifts North America, then, they would set the standard.
(Although people have been previously arguing that Good and Evil are concrete things in the game setting)

Yes
Not necessarily but people will
Depends some will say yes, others no
And I have argued that PB's alignments are not concrete
But even the good or evil by the masses thing isn't a good or evil morals it is moralizing whatever one thinks is good or evil.

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

That would depend, for me, on whether
I was on the land or in the sea.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

That would depend, for me, on whether
I was on the land or in the sea.

Lol, your great. What if it was a land shark or wolves or a shark or seawolves?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

That would depend, for me, on whether
I was on the land or in the sea.

Lol, your great. What if it was a land shark or wolves or a shark or seawolves?

I'd want to be against whatever was most out of its element.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

Well, my point was more that Governments often have competition at heart, over morality. People want their side to win. It's a more natural mentality, rather than one of higher thought.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

That would depend, for me, on whether
I was on the land or in the sea.

Lol, your great. What if it was a land shark or wolves or a shark or seawolves?

I'd want to be against whatever was most out of its element.

So if something comes knocking at your door and you ask who it is and it responds land shark...?

Alrik Vas wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:You tell me it isn't binary, then go on to say it's only this or that?

Also, I haven't argued that the Prosek is a good man or anything. I think the CS is bad news. Though nations are kind of like sharks.

No. Some are like sharks other bears, some vultures, some dogs, others wolves. I'd rather be in front of a wolf than a shark.

Well, my point was more that Governments often have competition at heart, over morality. People want their side to win. It's a more natural mentality, rather than one of higher thought.

Mmm. Some governments have stagnation at heart specifically those with an isolationist mentality. Hmm, can a way of "thinking" even be called a "mentality" for something like a government? Is that proper or correct?

What's your thought on that? I'm not seeing the issue.

Except the CS isn't a nation, its a fictionalized creation envisioned by its author to provide a moral framework against which the actions of the characters could be interpreted.

I think that's being missed by a few.

Jefffar wrote:Except the CS isn't a nation, its a fictionalized creation envisioned by its author to provide a moral framework against which the actions of the characters could be interpreted.

I think that's being missed by a few.

I don't think it was missed so much as ignored. The conversation seems to be more about judging the CS's actions rather than using them as a foil for heroics.

Comparison isn't necessary in an assignment system, though. It's all very clear cut.

Jefffar wrote:Except the CS isn't a nation, its a fictionalized creation envisioned by its author to provide a moral framework against which the actions of the characters could be interpreted.

I think that's being missed by a few.

True and untrue.

It is a fictional nation.

eliakon wrote:Sometimes psychics are humans sometimes they are mutants. And sometimes mutants are humans and sometimes they are not.

It appears to be basically "what vision does the current author of this book think"

I'm not even sure a same author is even consistent about it. KS wrote both SB1 and CWC and it seems like humans are mutants in SB and humans in WC.

Kind of wondering if Psi-Stalkers are counted among the once-popular "mutoid" thing.

Also I wonder, if sex between psychics and non-psychics is illegal, why the CS would not tag minor psionics and only tag major/master ones.

Am guessing that a minor sensitive psionic with Mask ISP (maybe minor-physicals with alter aura too? not sure) might be able to get away unpunished for hooking up with non-psychics. Since they aren't registered you couldn't just check their ID and they couldn't be sensed in the moment if they were masking their psionics.

So unless the CS apprehends people having sex and holds them for enough hours to run out of the ISP you need to keep Mask ISP up, those guys seem to get a free pass.

Nightmask wrote:Unless you're Quebec, they clearly don't consider them human and while they won't ride them out of the borders on a rail offer a nice 'please leave and never come back' severance package to any identified psychics in their borders.

They do? I only thought they hated Psi-Hounds, always figured they compensated for this with a Psi-Stalker force. Clearly I need to get updated here. So they didn't have a Psi-Bat or Psi-Net or anything? They exported all their psychics the way NGR dealt with D-Bees?

eliakon wrote:promising to murder every man woman and child in the nation is a bit more than 'military posturing' and 'threats'

Which element of the CS made this promise again?

eliakon wrote:Tolkeens options were always either stay and fight or give in to evil and run away (not really an option for a nation)

Seemed like a very viable option to me. Everyone else was bending over backwards to help them evacuate people and find homes for them. All the money spent on war machines could've been spent on transports. Also there had to be at least one summoner who could set up a power circle of Teleport and make it giant to limit the amount of fairy wings that need to be burned.

Or just someone who knows Circle of Travel could set one up, then hundreds of Shifters/Raiders/Walkers can take (in addition to themself) 2 people over for 60 PPE (30 per person). Call it 60 PPE per person since these guys will probably have to make return trips to bring everyone over, but it's entirely feasible to do this by renewing their PPE at the ley lines and nexi that Tolkeen is full of.

If you were trying to evacuate a town without a nearby ley line (or if you were using RMB rules which gave PPE in a matter of hours, not melee rounds) then you'd have more of a problem.

eliakon wrote:If the CS had not been trying to murder them all then Tolkeen would not have had to try and find better ways to defend themselves.

Except that the CS was not trying to murder Tolkeen when they started building their military, the CS had backed off as soon as Tolkeen offered a show of force when CS were being brutal with some Minnesotan towns when trying to ferret out Joseph 1's assassination plotters.

eliakon wrote:they didn't start using demons till after they started militarizing

This sounds familiar but I can't remember which book/page talks about it, would like to review the particulars if anyone recalls where this is elaborated on.

eliakon wrote:the Tolkeen people would never have used it if they had not thought their lives were in such danger that it seemed to be the only way to save themselves.

We can't know that for sure =/

Also with the CS having backed off for over a decade, dunno why they should feel in so much danger.

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
ehhhhhhhhhhhh Kinda...

It's more like saying your neighbor is a psychotic gun nut that might kill my kids. and the neighbor who did have guns but wasn't psychotic going, "Oh yeah? Well I'll show you!! and killing your kids, doing nasty sexual things to them, then chopping them up for BBQ.

Remember, tolkeen had other options they chose not to take. They went from 'good' to --REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALY EVIL--- REALLY quick and with gusto, far worse than the CS had even accused them of.

The threat was present. The CS highlighted the threat and yes, did some heavy anti tolkeen military posturing (Straight up threats), but tolkeen took it and ran with it like crazy. I mean the entire nation went crazy sauce over it.

in the end, Tolkeen was exactly what the CS accused them of, worse actually.

The saddest thing of the entire CS/Tolkeen war, was that Tolkeen -used- to be good. They --chose-- to become evil.

I would say that promising to murder every man woman and child in the nation is a bit more than 'military posturing' and 'threats'

Well.. untill they -do it- ... that's exactly what it is. Military posturing and threats. Remember the CS said they were going to do it like 7 to 10 years before they came over the hill to do so.

eliakon wrote:
And Tolkeens options were always either stay and fight or give in to evil and run away (not really an option for a nation)

They're not especially good choices, but they were choices none the less. Yes. Tolkeen -could- have stayed "good" and fought. They'd have still lost (Which isn't a surprise. Everyone told them they would) but they would not have descended into evil to do so. That would have been the mark of a truely 'good' nation. One that resists the urge to go evil when times get rough.

That's not the choice Tolkeen went with.

Yes they -could- have run. If nothing else it took the CS years to mobalize and actually come to carry out their threats. In that time Tolkeen could have run. They were a nation of magic users. Instead of using years of time to build up military might, and untold billions in resources to outfit a (Literal) Demonic army with technowizardry arms and magical items. They could have used that magic and money to run. To get out of dodge. To transport their entire city/nation's worth of people across the US and over to Cali, where the CS don't reach.

They didn't choose that either.

They could have -hidden-. Other magic nations do it, and have for years. It's not that 'hard' for them to pull it off. Tolkeen was a major magical city. They could have hidden using their magic to basicly get out of dodge that way. Or even phased into another dimension, like Psyscape.

They didn't choose that either.

They chose to dive, headlong and fast into evil. Not mosy. Not stroll. They ran and dove into evil with a vengeance.

This choice defines them. More over the choice that they made, not only defines how they 'ended' but it tarnishes how they were from the start. It's 'easy' to make the right choices and stuff in good times. When things are good and nothing is at state, making 'good' choices is easy. It's when times are tough, when times look impossible, when you're truely put to the test, it's THEN that your actions define you.

In tolkeen's case, they were put to the test. They didn't choose good. They didn't even chose 'Run and or hide' to save their people. They were put to the test and went' EVIL! YEP!! LETS DO IT!!"

And that shows that while they may have appeared good at the start. They were evil deep down, because when put to that test, they not only chose evil they embraced it with speed and vigor and never looked back.

eliakon wrote:
Over a decade of building up for the inevitable war

The thing is it didn't have to be. Tolkeen chose to go into the war.

eliakon wrote: they got on a rather slippery moral slope and while they may have started with the best intentions they ended up falling into being just as much of an evil as the CS that they sought to stop.

That's the thing though. Even if you consider the CS 'evil'. Tolkeen didn't become 'just as much of an evil as the cs" Tolkeen, far far surpassed the CS. The CS might be pro human, anti Dbee, they mightkill magic users, but at their worst, the CS never broke out demons, so vile and dastardly, that even other demons locked them in jail, free armies of those Demons and spend billions to outfit them with magical arms and armor, and then unleash them on earth.

Tolkeen's "Evil" makes the CS look like pissy ants, in comparison. And some would say, that takes some doing.

eliakon wrote:
The sad irony is that Tolkeen being evil turned out to be a self fulfilling prophecy. If the CS had not been trying to murder them all then Tolkeen would not have had to try and find better ways to defend themselves. And thus they would not have had any reason to give into the temptation of demons (note that they didn't start using demons till after they started militarizing and found that mundane magic was insufficient to their needs).

The thing is, as pointed out above this isn't a given. The fact that they did so willingly go evil, so fast and to such depths, shows that they couldn't have been 'good' to start with. If they were honestly 'good' when the choice of such demonic evil was brought up, they would have made the choice. "Tis better to die, with our morals, With our honor. With the right, following the light, than to live, having devolved to such depths of evil" type thing. Instead Tolkeen went "WE NEED MOAR POWAAAAH!!! SUMMON ZEE DEMONZZ!!

eliakon wrote:
I am not condoning the use of dark magic and demons here, just saying that the Tolkeen people would never have used it if they had not thought their lives were in such danger that it seemed to be the only way to save themselves.

Thing is it wasn't the only way. And that's not just me speculating. The other magic nations TOLD them to run. Tolkeen basicly grabbed their crotches and said "Fine we'll do it with out you cowards" the other magic nations told Tolkeen "No dude. We're not teaming up with you, because --even if we did team up, the CS would --still win-- and kill us all. You gotta RUN or you'll die"

The misconception that Tolkeen had no other option than mindcrushing evil that make the Nazi party look like fussy first graders, is part of the problem. Even the books show leaders in world (Erin Tarn, plato etc) Telling Tolkeen they had to bail. To stand would just lead to destruction and the deaths of 100s of 1000s.

In the end. Tolkeen was as the CS saw them. A huge threat, a nation of magic users and DBees whom embraced dark magic and consorted with the supernatural and Demons. They were that thing, because when provoked by the CS they -chose- to be that thing. They wern't -forced-. They made the willing choice. Which says they were that thing all along, They just hadn't had to show it yet.

So people where willing to do what they thought they had to protect there home land because they thaght they had no other way but it is there fault for not choosing to leave.

The impression I got was the leaders typically seen as good did not want to get involved be cause they did not condone the actions that Tolkeen was willing to do to protect themselves.

Not that I think that Tolkeen was good but there path to evil was paved with good intentions. The ends justifies the means as I said places you on the slippery slope to evil.

Also the path that Tolkeen took to evil was not quick they new for years that the CS was going to come for them. In fact the CS even had earlier failed attacks.

Tolkeen did not choose to go war they chose not to abandon there homes there is a slight difference. You claim would be like if Mexico invaded Texas and Texans fought back claiming Texas chose to go to war, war brought to them and they where part of it even if they chose not to be. If a army declares war and invades a nation even if the people fled war was brought to them not them choosing to go to war.

And one thing you they should have just turned tail and run over looks is where would they go and how would they get there. Tolkeen was a major nation on north America How many places had the infrastructure in place to accept such a large amount of refugees. Lazlo could not, Kingsdale could not, the Indian nations would most likely not. So saying they should have run is easy to say but for a nation hard to do.