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taalismn wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:[
I found it a while back on dvd actually, I googled it and found it on the A retail site for ~$7.00 or less to buy or "buy" it on their "instant video" for ~$10 of course I also found that you could buy it used for literally around $0.30 (which IMO is just insane)

Older movie, and as I said, the special effects show some of their age. It's rather campy too, but not unbearably so.

True but that in it'self was a part of it's charm for me and the ailen SFX/costumes were also a big draw for me as well.

taalismn wrote:

Kargan3033 wrote:[
Damn! I remember that movie, it is one of my all time fav flicks.

Robert Silverberg reviewed it for STARLOG magazine back in the day, and wrote a surprisingly warm review for it, calling it a 'feel good' movie(using as a literary example and definition of 'feelgood' a short story where the punchline 'has your heart going 'awwww...' before your rationality rushes back in and quashes the emotion.").

"It will be a slaughter!"
"That's the spirit!"
"Not of THEM! Of US!!!"
-The Last Starfighter and the 'Gung-ho Iguana.

taalismn wrote:Gunstars are just excellent CGI creations....admittedly the movie's CGI shows its age, especially when they're cave-diving and shooting up the Xurian freighters...you can see the TRON0kuje big wireframe angularity, but the Gunstar itself shows the curves and agility (and four engines) that will show up in shows like 'Babylon 5'.
Also, multiple turrets on a fighter for all-around coverage, unlike Star Wars atmospheric-strafers-in-space.

Agree!

"At least in a GunStar you have a fighting chance."

"Exactly! In the mean time they'll be down here shooting at Beta."

"What.

I figure that a Gunstar would be a good match for countering Zentraedi and Invid zerg-rush tactics(the one did pretty well against all those DeckFighters)...you just have to make sure you stay out of melee range...
Deploy them in numbers as part of a mixed force of veritechs(especially missileboats), and they'd be formidable.

taalismn wrote:I figure that a Gunstar would be a good match for countering Zentraedi and Invid zerg-rush tactics(the one did pretty well against all those DeckFighters)...you just have to make sure you stay out of melee range...
Deploy them in numbers as part of a mixed force of veritechs(especially missileboats), and they'd be formidable.

That is very true but do they have the speed and agility to keep up with a VT, also if they use a Death Blossm in heavy traffic you might end up with a lot of friendly fire cases.

Kargan3033 wrote:[
That is very true but do they have the speed and agility to keep up with a VT, also if they use a Death Blossm in heavy traffic you might end up with a lot of friendly fire cases.

Gunstars got FTL...and they got to the 'Frontier' right quick in movie....so I'm assuming they can MORE than keep up with VTs.

taalismn wrote:

Kargan3033 wrote:[
That is very true but do they have the speed and agility to keep up with a VT, also if they use a Death Blossm in heavy traffic you might end up with a lot of friendly fire cases.

Gunstars got FTL...and they got to the 'Frontier' right quick in movie....so I'm assuming they can MORE than keep up with VTs.

Good point and if they have the same or better speed then a VT then with a skilled pilot at the contorls they should be able to avoid being swarmed.

SRoss wrote:"At least in a GunStar you have a fighting chance."

"Exactly! In the mean time they'll be down here shooting at Beta."

"What.

taalismn wrote:I figure that a Gunstar would be a good match for countering Zentraedi and Invid zerg-rush tactics(the one did pretty well against all those DeckFighters)...you just have to make sure you stay out of melee range...
Deploy them in numbers as part of a mixed force of veritechs(especially missileboats), and they'd be formidable.

Sounds like a good plan!

Kargan3033 wrote:

taalismn wrote:I figure that a Gunstar would be a good match for countering Zentraedi and Invid zerg-rush tactics(the one did pretty well against all those DeckFighters)...you just have to make sure you stay out of melee range...
Deploy them in numbers as part of a mixed force of veritechs(especially missileboats), and they'd be formidable.

That is very true but do they have the speed and agility to keep up with a VT, also if they use a Death Blossm in heavy traffic you might end up with a lot of friendly fire cases.

Isn't that like a last resort type weapon? So if they do use it, most likely there will be very few if any friendlies nearby.

Alpha 11 wrote:Isn't that like a last resort type weapon? So if they do use it, most likely there will be very few if any friendlies nearby.

Yes it is a last resort wepaon but like I said if you are in a high traffic area where you are @ss to hair line deep with everything friendly and unfriendly flying around you and you in a jam and don't have a whole lot of time to check the area around you, you might end up taking out a few friendlies if you us DB.

Hmmm...wasn't entirely clear, though, how big the 'Frontier' really was...whether it was just a barrier around solar systems, an entire sector of the galaxy, or just a cluster of worlds....The Starcar doesn't appear to go through the barrier of cheek-to-cheek Frontier satellites, and the Ko-Dhan dreadnought is apparently able to fire through it and hit the League's baseworld. The idea of a physical BARRIER in space of satellites close enough that they're within sight of each other suggests a MASSIVe GOD-tier investment of time and material, or relics of a previous super-civilization. Either of which sounds even more ridiculous than the rest of the storyline.
Perhaps, though, the satellites we see are only an emitter cluster or 'school' able to create a force barrier of many light years in size and we only see it because the Ko-Dhan are focusing their efforts on the physical generators, like trying to crack a safe by attacking the lock mechanism, rather than brute-force through the walls.

taalismn wrote:Hmmm...wasn't entirely clear, though, how big the 'Frontier' really was...whether it was just a barrier around solar systems, an entire sector of the galaxy, or just a cluster of worlds....The Starcar doesn't appear to go through the barrier of cheek-to-cheek Frontier satellites, and the Ko-Dhan dreadnought is apparently able to fire through it and hit the League's baseworld. The idea of a physical BARRIER in space of satellites close enough that they're within sight of each other suggests a MASSIVe GOD-tier investment of time and material, or relics of a previous super-civilization. Either of which sounds even more ridiculous than the rest of the storyline.
Perhaps, though, the satellites we see are only an emitter cluster or 'school' able to create a force barrier of many light years in size and we only see it because the Ko-Dhan are focusing their efforts on the physical generators, like trying to crack a safe by attacking the lock mechanism, rather than brute-force through the walls.

That could be true, never thought of it that way before.

Star League, the America of Space.

SRoss wrote:Star League, the America of Space.

Nah, if that was the case, somebody would have grabbed Xur and fragged him a coupla lightyears behind a starhauler.

Kargan3033 wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:Isn't that like a last resort type weapon? So if they do use it, most likely there will be very few if any friendlies nearby.

Yes it is a last resort wepaon but like I said if you are in a high traffic area where you are @ss to hair line deep with everything friendly and unfriendly flying around you and you in a jam and don't have a whole lot of time to check the area around you, you might end up taking out a few friendlies if you us DB.

Ya, you would need some stricked protocals for when you use that,

Kargan3033 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Hmmm...wasn't entirely clear, though, how big the 'Frontier' really was...whether it was just a barrier around solar systems, an entire sector of the galaxy, or just a cluster of worlds....The Starcar doesn't appear to go through the barrier of cheek-to-cheek Frontier satellites, and the Ko-Dhan dreadnought is apparently able to fire through it and hit the League's baseworld. The idea of a physical BARRIER in space of satellites close enough that they're within sight of each other suggests a MASSIVe GOD-tier investment of time and material, or relics of a previous super-civilization. Either of which sounds even more ridiculous than the rest of the storyline.
Perhaps, though, the satellites we see are only an emitter cluster or 'school' able to create a force barrier of many light years in size and we only see it because the Ko-Dhan are focusing their efforts on the physical generators, like trying to crack a safe by attacking the lock mechanism, rather than brute-force through the walls.

That could be true, never thought of it that way before.

Well, if you think about it, you could find flaws like that in any Scifi move or series.

Alpha 11 wrote:[q
Well, if you think about it, you could find flaws like that in any Scifi move or series.

Of course. But part of the fun is trying to reasonably plug them.

"Hey Zur! We're the Hello Kitty Marines, and we're here to kick your ass."

taalismn wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:[q
Well, if you think about it, you could find flaws like that in any Scifi move or series.

Of course. But part of the fun is trying to reasonably plug them.

True.

SRoss wrote:"Hey Zur! We're the Hello Kitty Marines, and we're here to kick your ass."

SRoss wrote:"Hey Zur! We're the Hello Kitty Marines, and we're here to kick your ass."

Even though Xur's a stark-raving bastard compared to the rest of the Rylan species, he should be utterly horrified by THE PINK.
Hell, given that the Ko-Dans' martial color seems to be red, or at least shades of orange, they'd likely be pretty appalled too.

taalismn wrote:

SRoss wrote:"Hey Zur! We're the Hello Kitty Marines, and we're here to kick your ass."

Even though Xur's a stark-raving bastard compared to the rest of the Rylan species, he should be utterly horrified by THE PINK.
Hell, given that the Ko-Dans' martial color seems to be red, or at least shades of orange, they'd likely be pretty appalled too.

"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

taalismn wrote:"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

Kerensky,s exodus fleet misjump and found themsleves in Robotech Sol system in 2027,Before the Robotech masters.
How do you think this will changed things?

gaby wrote:Kerensky,s exodus fleet misjump and found themsleves in Robotech Sol system in 2027,Before the Robotech masters.
How do you think this will changed things?

Here's what happened; Kerensky jumped into the sun, The whole fleet. On the other side from Earth. Everybody in the fleet died, after the 2.2 seconds it took for them to realize they were inside the Sol System's SUN. Nobody else noticed, except for a group of quasi-supradimensional beings who were pursuing another low-level quasi-dimensional being who was negligently transposing people, entire communities, and entire planets into other universes, then not taking personal responsibility for the alternity created.
I understand the sentence for such crimes is being exiled to the bottom of a black hole time-sink without internet access.

taalismn wrote:

gaby wrote:Kerensky,s exodus fleet misjump and found themsleves in Robotech Sol system in 2027,Before the Robotech masters.
How do you think this will changed things?

Here's what happened; Kerensky jumped into the sun, The whole fleet. On the other side from Earth. Everybody in the fleet died, after the 2.2 seconds it took for them to realize they were inside the Sol System's SUN. Nobody else noticed, except for a group of quasi-supradimensional beings who were pursuing another low-level quasi-dimensional being who was negligently transposing people, entire communities, and entire planets into other universes, then not taking personal responsibility for the alternity created.
I understand the sentence for such crimes is being exiled to the bottom of a black hole time-sink without internet access.

So this is were it came from.

Yeah, the powers that be take very seriously infractions of Dimensional Transport, especially when people and planets are tossed across spacetime and abandoned just for the sake of $#!+s and giggles, then bail out. n they once exterminated an entire SPECIES who thought it was, despite repeated warnings, great fun to punch random holes in space/time and leave others to police their mess.
At least H. Beam Piper and John Ringo took care of their transpositions. Lord Kelvan and Grantville went on to have stable, viable timelines, but that was because their respective initiators were careful to do followup and document what happened, thus sustaining them by the Observer Effect. Others weren't so lucky.

taalismn wrote:Yeah, the powers that be take very seriously infractions of Dimensional Transport, especially when people and planets are tossed across spacetime and abandoned just for the sake of $#!+s and giggles, then bail out. n they once exterminated an entire SPECIES who thought it was, despite repeated warnings, great fun to punch random holes in space/time and leave others to police their mess.
At least H. Beam Piper and John Ringo took care of their transpositions. Lord Kelvan and Grantville went on to have stable, viable timelines, but that was because their respective initiators were careful to do followup and document what happened, thus sustaining them by the Observer Effect. Others weren't so lucky.

In other words, red tap and LOTS of paper work.

YEah, Heinlein in his 'The Number of the Beast' lays out the idea that fictional universes that see a lot of adherents have a greater chance of existence, either because access to them is made easier by belief or because they're essentially wished into existence(and because they were the most popular fictional universes of Heinlein's time, he has Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, Doc E>E. Smith's 'Galactic Patrol', and the 'Wizard of Oz', or at least close facsimiles of them, exist as real universes).
Compare this on a smaller scale to Terry Pratchett's 'small gods', where god-intelligences start out as essentially barely sentient notions that try to become memes to collect believers and the energies of belief, until, with millions of followers, they can become well-nigh omnipotent powerhouses.
Of course, nowadays we have juggernauts like 'Star Wars' and 'Star Trek', and to lesser extent, followers of Transformers, My Little Pony, Marvel, DC, and the like....

taalismn wrote:"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

actually a more thematic choice would have been MAC-II vs an Omega
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omega_%28BattleMech%29

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/ ... 5egboy.jpg

glitterboy2098 wrote:[q

actually a more thematic choice would have been MAC-II vs an Omega
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omega_%28BattleMech%29

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/ ... 5egboy.jpg

Indeed, but given that the Ares carries energy weapons, it tilts it in favor of the BT'mech.
However, if if the Heavy Howard was a 1st ed. model with laser arms, it would be a bit fairer in close combat(as opposed to the MAC just pounding the bejesus out of the BT unit from miles away).

i don't know, Btech tech has some fairly impressible capabilities compared to robotech.. robotech mecha are still mostly 20th century tech in terms of weapons, armor, etc.

while in Btech, their missiles are the size of LAW's but are hypersonic and pack huge explosive yields, their light autocannons are fully automatic large bore tank guns firing dozens of rounds a second, they have relativistic railguns, gigawatt standard size lasers, and armor that can shrug off all that while being under 1 inch thick..

(the battletech developers ran the numbers while doing techmanual, based on the technology details included in it. the armor thickness is based on material densities, mass of armor, and surface area.. that part's fairly rough though)

Yeah, plus you have the whole 'Armaggdeon-proofing' that has centuries-old frames still chugging away and viable, without appreciable materials deterioration.

taalismn wrote:Yeah, plus you have the whole 'Armaggdeon-proofing' that has centuries-old frames still chugging away and viable, without appreciable materials deterioration.

i'm not so sure about that any more.. but it's true the machines tend to stay viable after extremely long periods of inactivity, unlike today when you'd have to do major overhuals first.

but the active machines evidently need maintenance fairly often, even if only basic stuff. but standardized parts across all the nations (thanks to using star league specs and designs) means getting parts is easy.. and a lot of those old mechs probably fall into the "ship of Theseus paradox". all the parts have probably been replaced 2-3 times over, making it debatable as to whether it's the same mech anymore.

taalismn wrote:YEah, Heinlein in his 'The Number of the Beast' lays out the idea that fictional universes that see a lot of adherents have a greater chance of existence, either because access to them is made easier by belief or because they're essentially wished into existence(and because they were the most popular fictional universes of Heinlein's time, he has Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, Doc E>E. Smith's 'Galactic Patrol', and the 'Wizard of Oz', or at least close facsimiles of them, exist as real universes).
Compare this on a smaller scale to Terry Pratchett's 'small gods', where god-intelligences start out as essentially barely sentient notions that try to become memes to collect believers and the energies of belief, until, with millions of followers, they can become well-nigh omnipotent powerhouses.
Of course, nowadays we have juggernauts like 'Star Wars' and 'Star Trek', and to lesser extent, followers of Transformers, My Little Pony, Marvel, DC, and the like....

Ya, then you got the anime.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

actually a more thematic choice would have been MAC-II vs an Omega
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omega_%28BattleMech%29

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/ ... 5egboy.jpg

Nice mecha.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i don't know, Btech tech has some fairly impressible capabilities compared to robotech.. robotech mecha are still mostly 20th century tech in terms of weapons, armor, etc.

while in Btech, their missiles are the size of LAW's but are hypersonic and pack huge explosive yields, their light autocannons are fully automatic large bore tank guns firing dozens of rounds a second, they have relativistic railguns, gigawatt standard size lasers, and armor that can shrug off all that while being under 1 inch thick..

(the battletech developers ran the numbers while doing techmanual, based on the technology details included in it. the armor thickness is based on material densities, mass of armor, and surface area.. that part's fairly rough though)

I think though, it would come down to how good the pilots were in the end.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Yeah, plus you have the whole 'Armaggdeon-proofing' that has centuries-old frames still chugging away and viable, without appreciable materials deterioration.

i'm not so sure about that any more.. but it's true the machines tend to stay viable after extremely long periods of inactivity, unlike today when you'd have to do major overhuals first.

but the active machines evidently need maintenance fairly often, even if only basic stuff. but standardized parts across all the nations (thanks to using star league specs and designs) means getting parts is easy.. and a lot of those old mechs probably fall into the "ship of Theseus paradox". all the parts have probably been replaced 2-3 times over, making it debatable as to whether it's the same mech anymore.

And then add replacing armor, or even hole limbs, and ya, its not really the same mecha anymore.

Alpha 11 wrote:

taalismn wrote:YEah, Heinlein in his 'The Number of the Beast' lays out the idea that fictional universes that see a lot of adherents have a greater chance of existence, either because access to them is made easier by belief or because they're essentially wished into existence(and because they were the most popular fictional universes of Heinlein's time, he has Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, Doc E>E. Smith's 'Galactic Patrol', and the 'Wizard of Oz', or at least close facsimiles of them, exist as real universes).
Compare this on a smaller scale to Terry Pratchett's 'small gods', where god-intelligences start out as essentially barely sentient notions that try to become memes to collect believers and the energies of belief, until, with millions of followers, they can become well-nigh omnipotent powerhouses.
Of course, nowadays we have juggernauts like 'Star Wars' and 'Star Trek', and to lesser extent, followers of Transformers, My Little Pony, Marvel, DC, and the like....

Ya, then you got the anime.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

actually a more thematic choice would have been MAC-II vs an Omega
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omega_%28BattleMech%29

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/ ... 5egboy.jpg

Nice mecha.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i don't know, Btech tech has some fairly impressible capabilities compared to robotech.. robotech mecha are still mostly 20th century tech in terms of weapons, armor, etc.

while in Btech, their missiles are the size of LAW's but are hypersonic and pack huge explosive yields, their light autocannons are fully automatic large bore tank guns firing dozens of rounds a second, they have relativistic railguns, gigawatt standard size lasers, and armor that can shrug off all that while being under 1 inch thick..

(the battletech developers ran the numbers while doing techmanual, based on the technology details included in it. the armor thickness is based on material densities, mass of armor, and surface area.. that part's fairly rough though)

I think though, it would come down to how good the pilots were in the end.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Yeah, plus you have the whole 'Armaggdeon-proofing' that has centuries-old frames still chugging away and viable, without appreciable materials deterioration.

i'm not so sure about that any more.. but it's true the machines tend to stay viable after extremely long periods of inactivity, unlike today when you'd have to do major overhuals first.

but the active machines evidently need maintenance fairly often, even if only basic stuff. but standardized parts across all the nations (thanks to using star league specs and designs) means getting parts is easy.. and a lot of those old mechs probably fall into the "ship of Theseus paradox". all the parts have probably been replaced 2-3 times over, making it debatable as to whether it's the same mech anymore.

And then add replacing armor, or even hole limbs, and ya, its not really the same mecha anymore.

I realize it may just "my interpretation" but I always felt the Battletech version of the equipment basically boiled down to "heavy/brute" versions of the Robotech gear The Marauder vs zent officers battlepod may Visually look identical, but IMO the Marauder in a fight it would be a classic case of a "2 hit fight" IE the Marauder shoots the OBP with a ppc, and there are "2 hits" the first hit is the weapon striking, the second hit is the debris (of the OBP) hitting the ground all over the place. whereas the counter fire, IE the OBP shooting the marauder has the marauder pilot basically saying "did something hit me? my sensors aren't reporting any damage.....

I still remember that article someone wrote comparing the accuracy of Battletech weapons to their modern (1990s) counterparts. In the article it was implied that an M1A1 Abrams tank (mounting the equivalent to an AC2 as it's main gun) could pick apart any Inner Sphere or Clan mech from well beyond the range at which the mech could even detect let alone target the tank.

I wonder how that compares to UEDF/UEEF, ASC, Zentreadi, Masters and Invid units?

SRoss wrote:I still remember that article someone wrote comparing the accuracy of Battletech weapons to their modern (1990s) counterparts. In the article it was implied that an M1A1 Abrams tank (mounting the equivalent to an AC2 as it's main gun) could pick apart any Inner Sphere or Clan mech from well beyond the range at which the mech could even detect let alone target the tank.

I wonder how that compares to UEDF/UEEF, ASC, Zentreadi, Masters and Invid units?

Game-stat wise? IMHO, you're better using a 1990s tank gun firing Rifts Earth munitions than you are riding in a Southern Cross tank. On the other hand, most militaries don't automatically begin opening fire at the extreme range of their weapons(especially in the infantry) unless they've got a DEFINITE bead and clear line of sight on the target, or are desperate to lay down suppressive fire(enough incoming pain to keep the enemy's head down on the offhand chance that somebody gets lucky with a Golden BB).

Actually a 105mm modern tank gun is only a heavy rifle cannon in the game. which basiclly can't Pierce mech armor. Weighs as much as an ac5, damage less than an ac2. Does pretty good against non-mech spec armor though.. anything barrier rating 6 or less.(much grade is bar10 or better. Modern chobahm is bar6, roughly.)

That persons calcs must have been from way in the beginning of the game before the tech was actually defined. Energy weapons were actually the easy part to figure.. the materials btech standard armor is made of need around 200 megajoules of energy to melt 30 kg of it.. which is the mass of one 'point' of armor. A standard medium laser melts off 5 points. A standard large 8. Etc.

Weapon speeds were figurable using aerotech ranges.. that part of the game uses 18km hexes, anda well defined turn duration. Since the standard weapons do not require special ammo for space, those define the true range. (Ground range is recognized as truncated for play purposes. One reason there are now official optional rules for 'if you can see it you can shoot it' where there are no range limits on the ground)

This resulted in hypersonic missiles, super fast guass rifles and Autocannon, etc.
It also meant the space naval guns (with even longer ranges) are using some form of nuclear explosive as propellant...

I can see your point, the M1A1 can hit a VW bus at 2 miles while running flat out over rough terrain, the canopy on a Battlemaster ought to be child's play.

SRoss wrote:I can see your point, the M1A1 can hit a VW bus at 2 miles while running flat out over rough terrain, the canopy on a Battlemaster ought to be child's play.

Whether or not it can actually penetrate it is another issue.
There was a SpaceBattles round robin which had the (Tom) Clancyverse drop into the BTverse...before there came cries of 'Earthwank' and they 'Dallas'ed' a 'dream ending' to the whole thread on April 1st, the Clancyverse Earth forces were showing off EXCEPTIONAL firecontrol compared to pre-Helm Core BT forces. Between the fact that CEarth forces were using lostech in the form of laser illuminators and whatnot(one of the bandits who gets artillery-Itano'ed can't make sense of his ancient battlemech's computers warning him of an airborne laser designator painting him).

taalismn wrote:

SRoss wrote:I can see your point, the M1A1 can hit a VW bus at 2 miles while running flat out over rough terrain, the canopy on a Battlemaster ought to be child's play.

Whether or not it can actually penetrate it is another issue.
There was a SpaceBattles round robin which had the (Tom) Clancyverse drop into the BTverse...before there came cries of 'Earthwank' and they 'Dallas'ed' a 'dream ending' to the whole thread on April 1st, the Clancyverse Earth forces were showing off EXCEPTIONAL firecontrol compared to pre-Helm Core BT forces. Between the fact that CEarth forces were using lostech in the form of laser illuminators and whatnot(one of the bandits who gets artillery-Itano'ed can't make sense of his ancient battlemech's computers warning him of an airborne laser designator painting him).

there are also some discussions on the Btech forum where people have pointed out that for the combat machines such as mechs, fighters tanks etc.. there is a lot of implications that all combat units have some fairly NASTY ECM built in without even having dedicated ECM suites like guardian, watchdog, or Angel. at least one person with a background in Military aviation (I believe) suggested that having an ECM suite tied into a nuclear (fusion) power source would allow for what we would consider INSANE countermeasures, in fact I know one (or more) of the novels indicated that the ranges are so short in part because the "mk 1 eyeball" is in many ways the best targeting system due to all the sensor ghosts, jamming, false detections etc. that the pilots have to deal with

guardiandashi wrote:[

there are also some discussions on the Btech forum where people have pointed out that for the combat machines such as mechs, fighters tanks etc.. there is a lot of implications that all combat units have some fairly NASTY ECM built in without even having dedicated ECM suites like guardian, watchdog, or Angel. at least one person with a background in Military aviation (I believe) suggested that having an ECM suite tied into a nuclear (fusion) power source would allow for what we would consider INSANE countermeasures, in fact I know one (or more) of the novels indicated that the ranges are so short in part because the "mk 1 eyeball" is in many ways the best targeting system due to all the sensor ghosts, jamming, false detections etc. that the pilots have to deal with

MINOWSKI PARTICLES!!!!

guardiandashi wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:

taalismn wrote:YEah, Heinlein in his 'The Number of the Beast' lays out the idea that fictional universes that see a lot of adherents have a greater chance of existence, either because access to them is made easier by belief or because they're essentially wished into existence(and because they were the most popular fictional universes of Heinlein's time, he has Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, Doc E>E. Smith's 'Galactic Patrol', and the 'Wizard of Oz', or at least close facsimiles of them, exist as real universes).
Compare this on a smaller scale to Terry Pratchett's 'small gods', where god-intelligences start out as essentially barely sentient notions that try to become memes to collect believers and the energies of belief, until, with millions of followers, they can become well-nigh omnipotent powerhouses.
Of course, nowadays we have juggernauts like 'Star Wars' and 'Star Trek', and to lesser extent, followers of Transformers, My Little Pony, Marvel, DC, and the like....

Ya, then you got the anime.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:"You know, I heard these guys were supposed to have been called the 'Unseen', but now they're the 'Reseen'. Kinda wish they'd remained the 'Unseen', because I've seen them now, and they are fuggin' UGLY!" The Tomahawk pilot complained as he triggered another salvo from his particle beam cannons into the staggering wreck of the Warhammer.
"I concur. I'd have thought for all the talk, they'd come up with something more aesthetically...aesthetically.....what's the word I'm looking for?" The Zentraedi warrior in his Glaug pondered as he sidestepped a barrage from a Marauder before returning fire.
"Dynamic?" The Phalanx pilot ventured as he watched the mushroom cloud from his last heavy missile salvo carry the remains of the Longbow he'd been trading shots with into low orbit.
"WILL YOU GUYS QUIT MOANING AND GROANING AND HELP US OUT HERE?!" the commander of the Mac II Monster wailed as his giant mecha beat a hasty clomping retreat, its arm missile launchers empty, its quad heavy gun barrels trying to depress low enough to hit the tripod Ares that was charging in pursuit, blazing away at its opposite number.

actually a more thematic choice would have been MAC-II vs an Omega
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omega_%28BattleMech%29

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/ ... 5egboy.jpg

Nice mecha.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i don't know, Btech tech has some fairly impressible capabilities compared to robotech.. robotech mecha are still mostly 20th century tech in terms of weapons, armor, etc.

while in Btech, their missiles are the size of LAW's but are hypersonic and pack huge explosive yields, their light autocannons are fully automatic large bore tank guns firing dozens of rounds a second, they have relativistic railguns, gigawatt standard size lasers, and armor that can shrug off all that while being under 1 inch thick..

(the battletech developers ran the numbers while doing techmanual, based on the technology details included in it. the armor thickness is based on material densities, mass of armor, and surface area.. that part's fairly rough though)

I think though, it would come down to how good the pilots were in the end.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Yeah, plus you have the whole 'Armaggdeon-proofing' that has centuries-old frames still chugging away and viable, without appreciable materials deterioration.

i'm not so sure about that any more.. but it's true the machines tend to stay viable after extremely long periods of inactivity, unlike today when you'd have to do major overhuals first.

but the active machines evidently need maintenance fairly often, even if only basic stuff. but standardized parts across all the nations (thanks to using star league specs and designs) means getting parts is easy.. and a lot of those old mechs probably fall into the "ship of Theseus paradox". all the parts have probably been replaced 2-3 times over, making it debatable as to whether it's the same mech anymore.

And then add replacing armor, or even hole limbs, and ya, its not really the same mecha anymore.

I realize it may just "my interpretation" but I always felt the Battletech version of the equipment basically boiled down to "heavy/brute" versions of the Robotech gear The Marauder vs zent officers battlepod may Visually look identical, but IMO the Marauder in a fight it would be a classic case of a "2 hit fight" IE the Marauder shoots the OBP with a ppc, and there are "2 hits" the first hit is the weapon striking, the second hit is the debris (of the OBP) hitting the ground all over the place. whereas the counter fire, IE the OBP shooting the marauder has the marauder pilot basically saying "did something hit me? my sensors aren't reporting any damage.....

Well, Zentraidie mecha don't have much armor to begin with.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Actually a 105mm modern tank gun is only a heavy rifle cannon in the game. which basiclly can't Pierce mech armor. Weighs as much as an ac5, damage less than an ac2. Does pretty good against non-mech spec armor though.. anything barrier rating 6 or less.(much grade is bar10 or better. Modern chobahm is bar6, roughly.)

That persons calcs must have been from way in the beginning of the game before the tech was actually defined. Energy weapons were actually the easy part to figure.. the materials btech standard armor is made of need around 200 megajoules of energy to melt 30 kg of it.. which is the mass of one 'point' of armor. A standard medium laser melts off 5 points. A standard large 8. Etc.

Weapon speeds were figurable using aerotech ranges.. that part of the game uses 18km hexes, anda well defined turn duration. Since the standard weapons do not require special ammo for space, those define the true range. (Ground range is recognized as truncated for play purposes. One reason there are now official optional rules for 'if you can see it you can shoot it' where there are no range limits on the ground)

This resulted in hypersonic missiles, super fast guass rifles and Autocannon, etc.
It also meant the space naval guns (with even longer ranges) are using some form of nuclear explosive as propellant...

Ya, for game play, you might have to turn in down a little so you can play on a board.

taalismn wrote:

SRoss wrote:I can see your point, the M1A1 can hit a VW bus at 2 miles while running flat out over rough terrain, the canopy on a Battlemaster ought to be child's play.

Whether or not it can actually penetrate it is another issue.
There was a SpaceBattles round robin which had the (Tom) Clancyverse drop into the BTverse...before there came cries of 'Earthwank' and they 'Dallas'ed' a 'dream ending' to the whole thread on April 1st, the Clancyverse Earth forces were showing off EXCEPTIONAL firecontrol compared to pre-Helm Core BT forces. Between the fact that CEarth forces were using lostech in the form of laser illuminators and whatnot(one of the bandits who gets artillery-Itano'ed can't make sense of his ancient battlemech's computers warning him of an airborne laser designator painting him).

Will have to find that thread and read it.

Rand: (Looking at House Lao) "Wow, a whole house of people who are as big a bunch of a-holes as Corg."

Corg: "HEY! DON'T LUMP ME WITH THEM!!!"

SRoss wrote:Rand: (Looking at House Lao) "Wow, a whole house of people who are as big a bunch of a-holes as Corg."

Corg: "HEY! DON'T LUMP ME WITH THEM!!!"

Rook: "Yeah. That's demeaning to House Lao."

Corg: "Hey!"

House Kurita: "Oh, I think I'm turning Japanese, oh I think so...."
House Davion: "We're so freaking clever..."
House Marik: "What distinguishes us again? Og, right, the fact that we're all over the place with regards to our politics..."
House Steiner: "ACHTUNG! HEAVY METAL!"
Comstar: " We can't trust you with that..."
Word of Blake: "BLOOD FOR THE TOASTER GOD!!!"
Clans: "See what a military education gets your descendants?"

SRoss wrote:Rand: (Looking at House Lao) "Wow, a whole house of people who are as big a bunch of a-holes as Corg."

Corg: "HEY! DON'T LUMP ME WITH THEM!!!"

Chronicler wrote:

SRoss wrote:Rand: (Looking at House Lao) "Wow, a whole house of people who are as big a bunch of a-holes as Corg."

Corg: "HEY! DON'T LUMP ME WITH THEM!!!"

Rook: "Yeah. That's demeaning to House Lao."

Corg: "Hey!"

taalismn wrote:House Kurita: "Oh, I think I'm turning Japanese, oh I think so...."
House Davion: "We're so freaking clever..."
House Marik: "What distinguishes us again? Og, right, the fact that we're all over the place with regards to our politics..."
House Steiner: "ACHTUNG! HEAVY METAL!"
Comstar: " We can't trust you with that..."
Word of Blake: "BLOOD FOR THE TOASTER GOD!!!"
Clans: "See what a military education gets your descendants?"

"Your wars of aggression, your campaigns across the stars, all prove you are a destructive species who must be stopped, contained, eliminated."
"Mister Klaatu, Mister Gort, any attempt to contain us, and especially any attempt to 'eliminate' us will be met with the utmost resistance. We straddle space, we travel across universes; we will not be so easily cowed, controlled, or, yes, eliminated by the pretentious arrogance of a self-declared 'cosmic law' that judges us as unfit to survive. We are willing to make accommodation with those who respect our right to exist; we make no such accommodation with those who pronounce genocide on us. Bring it, fat@$$."

shades of Kip addressing the galactic court in 'have spacesuit, will travel"
"It's not a defense, you don't want a defense. All right, take away our star. You will if you can & I guess you can. Go ahead! We'll make a star! Then, someday, we'll come back & hunt you down - all of you!"

glitterboy2098 wrote:shades of Kip addressing the galactic court in 'have spacesuit, will travel"
"It's not a defense, you don't want a defense. All right, take away our star. You will if you can & I guess you can. Go ahead! We'll make a star! Then, someday, we'll come back & hunt you down - all of you!"

Yeah, sending some people(or an entire SPECIES) to the galactic equivalent of a gulag or hell is a REALLY bad idea...

At least the aliens in Mallworld gave use a shopping centre...