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Killer Cyborg wrote:According to DB7, knowledge of the Phase World, Palladium, and HU Earth is "easily available" in any of the magic cities, including Tolkeen (or what's left of it now). It's "common knowledge and word on the street" type stuff.
Granted, those places aren't necessarily paradises, but the majority of HU Earth seems to be thriving, in spite of the occasional super-being attack and such. Palladium would also be a pretty nice place to settle, if you picked the right part of it.
Yes, those places have populations, but there are plenty of parallel Earths (i.e., infinite), and some of them are bound to be unpopulated by sapients and/or monsters. Life is statistically less likely to thrive than not, and intelligent life even less so.
I see no reason not to assume that dimensions are kind of like Rifts Earth areas; there are any number of relatively peaceful places, it's just that the authors don't like to talk about them, and we ARE discussing the central topic of the original post.

A lot aren't going to be Rifts Earth bad, but most would resist immigration, I'd think. HU may allow individuals in, but most likely isn't going to want large populations to come over.


And while there is all those unpopulated ones, I do think it's just much easier to *find* the populated ones, and it'd take a significant concentrated effort to find a good empty one.


The easier it is to go there, the more likely someone's gone there. The ones everyone knows about, is often because people come from there and make itself known (Superheroes and mages going on dimensional jaunts and all that). Finding one that does zero advertising is a much trickier proposition, needled in a haystack.

Q99 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to DB7, knowledge of the Phase World, Palladium, and HU Earth is "easily available" in any of the magic cities, including Tolkeen (or what's left of it now). It's "common knowledge and word on the street" type stuff.
Granted, those places aren't necessarily paradises, but the majority of HU Earth seems to be thriving, in spite of the occasional super-being attack and such. Palladium would also be a pretty nice place to settle, if you picked the right part of it.
Yes, those places have populations, but there are plenty of parallel Earths (i.e., infinite), and some of them are bound to be unpopulated by sapients and/or monsters. Life is statistically less likely to thrive than not, and intelligent life even less so.
I see no reason not to assume that dimensions are kind of like Rifts Earth areas; there are any number of relatively peaceful places, it's just that the authors don't like to talk about them, and we ARE discussing the central topic of the original post.

A lot aren't going to be Rifts Earth bad, but most would resist immigration, I'd think. HU may allow individuals in, but most likely isn't going to want large populations to come over.

I'm just talking about individuals at this point, people living in Tolkeen when they had the means to live somewhere else and commute to work if they felt like it.

And while there is all those unpopulated ones, I do think it's just much easier to *find* the populated ones, and it'd take a significant concentrated effort to find a good empty one.

I think that it'd be pretty easy, except the material we're given is skewed toward adventurers. Realistically, I think that a lot of random Rifts would open to empty lands/realms, except the writers assume that we as players would find that boring, so they don't include it.

The easier it is to go there, the more likely someone's gone there.

Agreed.
But travelers aren't necessarily settlers, and a lot of travelers who find an empty forest or grassland or whatever are likely to snap some photos and move on.

The ones everyone knows about, is often because people come from there and make itself known (Superheroes and mages going on dimensional jaunts and all that). Finding one that does zero advertising is a much trickier proposition, needled in a haystack.

I'd say more like finding thorns in a haystack at worst.

cosmicfish wrote:Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

Considering the topic is 'the CS are not the bad guy' and they most demonstrably ARE the bad guy then no, no one has managed to convince me that black is actually white.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think that it'd be pretty easy, except the material we're given is skewed toward adventurers. Realistically, I think that a lot of random Rifts would open to empty lands/realms, except the writers assume that we as players would find that boring, so they don't include it.

I don't think that's only adventurer-bias, is what I'm saying. I think that's a bias of where the portals tend to go.

Rifts are an an attractive feature in themselves, so if a place is ok aside from that, you normally seem people move in. Heck, Junkyard World in the Megaversal builder book.

If there's no-one there, it's either because there's very few rifts and it's *hard* to get there, or because there's a reason people chose not to go there.

If adventurers can just up and find pleasant empty worlds so easily, they'd sell or give that information to those who need it and those pleasant empty worlds would rapidly become not-empty.

cosmicfish wrote:Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

A lot of information has been exchanged, so my opinion's probably changed on something ^^

Also, sometimes a debate isn't about convincing someone now, but planting the ideas for them to consider and process.

Q99 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think that it'd be pretty easy, except the material we're given is skewed toward adventurers. Realistically, I think that a lot of random Rifts would open to empty lands/realms, except the writers assume that we as players would find that boring, so they don't include it.

I don't think that's only adventurer-bias, is what I'm saying. I think that's a bias of where the portals tend to go.

Rifts are an an attractive feature in themselves, so if a place is ok aside from that, you normally seem people move in. Heck, Junkyard World in the Megaversal builder book.

Well, that place also has a LOT of free stuff.

If there's no-one there, it's either because there's very few rifts and it's *hard* to get there, or because there's a reason people chose not to go there.

According to DB7, there are places that are easier to get to, and places that are harder to get to.
But the places that are harder to get to still aren't all that hard.

If adventurers can just up and find pleasant empty worlds so easily, they'd sell or give that information to those who need it and those pleasant empty worlds would rapidly become not-empty.

I guess that depends on how much free space you think there is in comparison to how many people.
I look at our universe, and I see that there's far, far more space than there are people, even on Earth... and especially in the big picture.

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to DB7, knowledge of the Phase World, Palladium, and HU Earth is "easily available" in any of the magic cities, including Tolkeen (or what's left of it now). It's "common knowledge and word on the street" type stuff.
Granted, those places aren't necessarily paradises, but the majority of HU Earth seems to be thriving, in spite of the occasional super-being attack and such. Palladium would also be a pretty nice place to settle, if you picked the right part of it.
Yes, those places have populations, but there are plenty of parallel Earths (i.e., infinite), and some of them are bound to be unpopulated by sapients and/or monsters. Life is statistically less likely to thrive than not, and intelligent life even less so.
I see no reason not to assume that dimensions are kind of like Rifts Earth areas; there are any number of relatively peaceful places, it's just that the authors don't like to talk about them, and we ARE discussing the central topic of the original post.

most places on rifts earth are also not overrun by monsters, and frankly to a nation that has access to hundreds of dragons and powerful mages, psychics, etc, i wouldn't consider most of rifts earth to be a particularly dangerous place to live (of course, now that the xiticix have kinda shown up, that isn't exactly the case for the area around tolkeen any more, but again... we're not talking about what it's like now, we're talking about what it *was* like when they settled the city and there was neither a bunch of wannabe nazis nor an army of reasonably intelligent supernatural anthropomorphic wasps (more or less) nearby).

there are likely peaceful places. in most cases, they won't be uninhabited. there's plenty of other people looking for real estate of that nature. there's no particular reason to presume it would be empty. oh, it might not necessarily have armies of demons everywhere, but you can bet that the best places are going to consistently be inhabited by something, and that whatever that something is, it likely represents the dominant force in the region it is in.

but seriously, think about it... the four horsemen of the apocalypse showed up, and got wrecked. yeah, there's monsters around, but in general, humans are living all over the place in the setting, even the most dangerous areas. which points to most areas being unpleasant, but certainly not impossible to live in, especially when you have a powerful well-equipped army.

up until the CS tried to murder them, there is no particular indication that tolkeen had a particularly difficult time keeping their population safe from the environment of rifts earth. and, in fact, by controlling the ley lines, it is even entirely possible that tolkeen had an easier time keeping their population safe than the CS. well, up until they started consorting with demons (i have my doubts that the sorcerer's revenge was the only time the daemonix got out of hand, which makes it all the more baffling that tolkeen were dumb enough to ally themselves with creatures that are renowned throughout the megaverse for being horrible awful monsters that will stab you in the back for fun).

Nightmask wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

Considering the topic is 'the CS are not the bad guy' and they most demonstrably ARE the bad guy then no, no one has managed to convince me that black is actually white.

I've always thought they're a bad guy, but I also think they impose order in a chaotic world. It isn't the good, moral order that would be preferred by many in this thread (including myself, I'm not okay with genocide) but I.don't think they'd THE bad guy.

Though after reading this thread, some of my smaller points have changed, but it had to do with not having all the information.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to DB7, knowledge of the Phase World, Palladium, and HU Earth is "easily available" in any of the magic cities, including Tolkeen (or what's left of it now). It's "common knowledge and word on the street" type stuff.
Granted, those places aren't necessarily paradises, but the majority of HU Earth seems to be thriving, in spite of the occasional super-being attack and such. Palladium would also be a pretty nice place to settle, if you picked the right part of it.
Yes, those places have populations, but there are plenty of parallel Earths (i.e., infinite), and some of them are bound to be unpopulated by sapients and/or monsters. Life is statistically less likely to thrive than not, and intelligent life even less so.
I see no reason not to assume that dimensions are kind of like Rifts Earth areas; there are any number of relatively peaceful places, it's just that the authors don't like to talk about them, and we ARE discussing the central topic of the original post.

most places on rifts earth are also not overrun by monsters,

Agreed.
But they are potentially overrun by monsters.

and frankly to a nation that has access to hundreds of dragons and powerful mages, psychics, etc, i wouldn't consider most of rifts earth to be a particularly dangerous place to live (of course, now that the xiticix have kinda shown up, that isn't exactly the case for the area around tolkeen any more, but again... we're not talking about what it's like now, we're talking about what it *was* like when they settled the city and there was neither a bunch of wannabe nazis nor an army of reasonably intelligent supernatural anthropomorphic wasps (more or less) nearby).

Do we know anything about what it was like when they settled?

but seriously, think about it... the four horsemen of the apocalypse showed up, and got wrecked. yeah, there's monsters around, but in general, humans are living all over the place in the setting, even the most dangerous areas. which points to most areas being unpleasant, but certainly not impossible to live in, especially when you have a powerful well-equipped army.

Same with the Mechanoids.
And you have a good point; somebody has ended up saving the world every time... so far.
With the Edict of Planetary Distress in 102 PA (IIRC), though, you know there are going to be more threats like that.

It's kind of like the Earth in Supernatural:
DEAN: This is stupid. Our quality of life is crap. We got Purgatory's least wanted everywhere, and we're on our third "The World's Screwed" issue in, what, three years? We've steered the bus away from the cliff twice already.
SAM: Someone's got to do it.
DEAN: What if the bus wants to go over the cliff?
SAM: You think the world wants to end?
DEAN: I think that if we didn't take its belt and all its pens away each year that, yeah, the whole enchilada woulda offed itself already.

I think it might be nicer to have a home somewhere a bit more mellow. Again, you can always commute to work as an apocalyptic metaphorical bus-driver or mechanic if you like.
If I lived on a planet where so many things were threatening to wipe out or take over the planet, I think it'd be smart and safe to keep one foot out the door, even if the track record did favor survival so far.
But maybe I'm just being a "The Impending Apocalypse Is Half Full" kind of guy.

up until the CS tried to murder them, there is no particular indication that tolkeen had a particularly difficult time keeping their population safe from the environment of rifts earth. and, in fact, by controlling the ley lines, it is even entirely possible that tolkeen had an easier time keeping their population safe than the CS. well, up until they started consorting with demons (i have my doubts that the sorcerer's revenge was the only time the daemonix got out of hand, which makes it all the more baffling that tolkeen were dumb enough to ally themselves with creatures that are renowned throughout the megaverse for being horrible awful monsters that will stab you in the back for fun).

Unfortunately, we don't have any real indication either way what life in Tolkeen was like before the invasion.
Their ultimate consorting with demons could be used to argue either way, that they were a bit naive because they'd done so well, or that they were used to desperation.
I really wish the place had been detailed before its destruction--that would have made the destruction have a lot more emotional impact for me.

*shrug* it stands to reason that if there was a threat big enough to threaten a city of dragons when tolkeen established their city, it would have been mentioned.

granted, that leaves a lot of room for lesser problems. but since tolkeen does have that city of dragons, it basically means that there isn't a huge difference in terms of difficulty of removing hostiles whether there are 100 simvan that just like to murder everything as the largest threat in the area or if there are thousands of demons as the biggest threat in the area (unless the demons are likely to all always be in the same place at the same time, and even then, the dragons kinda have the advantage). i find it highly improbable that anything in the area when tolkeen was settled would have been a problem for a thousand shadow dragons to deal with.

Shark_Force wrote:*shrug* it stands to reason that if there was a threat big enough to threaten a city of dragons when tolkeen established their city, it would have been mentioned.

I obviously don't know enough about the history of Tolkeen; I didn't know that there WAS a city of dragons in that area before Tolkeen existed.
I assumed that the dragon population showed up over time, like the rest of the population.

flatline wrote:Don't they claim to have invented all the golden age stuff they stumbled into? Like the SAMAS?

Maybe, I can't remember where I read it if I did though.

cosmicfish wrote:Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

It has somewhat changed, yes. Not a HUGE deal, but even a little bit is good. In the course of the argument I have become more educated as to the history of the CS, both in points brought up by others and in browsing the history of world and source books to come up with my own arguments.

This has given me a higher positive opinion of them than I had before. On the flip side, I also have a better idea of the atrocities certain CS people have gotten up to, and realize that while the CS is not about promoting atrocity, it certainly has an apathy about preventing them when it comes to D-Bees or Mages, as their other priorities leave no resources to spare.

Nightmask wrote:Considering the topic is 'the CS are not the bad guy' and they most demonstrably ARE the bad guy then no, no one has managed to convince me that black is actually white.

"The" though?

Even if I was a dragon drying to get by in the CS burbs where subjectively they're "a" bad guy (among many) to me, I'm still not sure I'd necessarily consider them the prime evil. Certainly a major hassle considering their policies toward me, but they do still provide a stabilizing force in the region and deal with a lot of dangerous stuff I probably couldn't deal with as a Hatchling, like the Xiticix, who would wreck me up. I'd still probably be more at odds with the Society of Sages or Dragonmages because in either case, they're not just trying to push me out of their claimed territory for safety, they want to hunt me down and harvest my blood/head.

Shark_Force wrote:up until the CS tried to murder them, there is no particular indication that tolkeen had a particularly difficult time keeping their population safe from the environment of rifts earth.

Is there any indication they had an easy time doing it?

I'm willing to wager that the City of Tolkeen was a safe enough place if you were a supernatural being or a powerful wizard, but I'm not so sure about the average citizen. Nor the citizens living in smaller towns around the central city in the "Kingdom of Tolkeen" countryside they claim.

Shark_Force wrote:by controlling the ley lines, it is even entirely possible that tolkeen had an easier time keeping their population safe than the CS.

Are we talking about just the region immediately around the triangle, ie the city?

You can compare that to the security of Chi-Town, I guess. I still think Chi-Town would win out as being safer for your average non-powered human though. As for the countryside, that's probably even more of a problem. We know the CS are always sending out SAMAS patrols and stuff, is Tolkeen described as having done it?

They did confront the CS during the 6-town obliteration post-assassination but that could just be about more of a "we hate the CS" or "we don't want to be conquered" issue than a "we regularly protect our border towns" issue.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's kind of like the Earth in Supernatural

Started watching this from S1 a few months ago (airs 5x week on E!) only missed the first couple (GF-burn and Wendigos) which wasn't a huge deal since it's heavy enough in flashbacks to inform me what happened. Up to where the 'Alphas' (Shapeshift/Vamp) start appearing, cool stuff.

I'd almost think the CS would approve of the show except for them using exorcism rituals. Although there is the psionic power of exorcism, their reliance on pentagrams and stuff to do it smacks more of the 'magic spell' type. Plus there being a good angel is something I don't think would sit well with them, I don't think they like Spirits of Light.

Shark Force wrote: it stands to reason that if there was a threat big enough to threaten a city of dragons when tolkeen established their city, it would have been mentioned.

granted, that leaves a lot of room for lesser problems. but since tolkeen does have that city of dragons, it basically means that there isn't a huge difference in terms of difficulty of removing hostiles whether there are 100 simvan that just like to murder everything as the largest threat in the area or if there are thousands of demons as the biggest threat in the area (unless the demons are likely to all always be in the same place at the same time, and even then, the dragons kinda have the advantage). i find it highly improbable that anything in the area when tolkeen was settled would have been a problem for a thousand shadow dragons to deal with.

Freehold being safe doesn't necessarily mean everywhere else was. These weren't all altruists ready to risk themselves to save humans at the drop of a hat, far as I know.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's kind of like the Earth in Supernatural

Started watching this from S1 a few months ago (airs 5x week on E!) only missed the first couple (GF-burn and Wendigos) which wasn't a huge deal since it's heavy enough in flashbacks to inform me what happened. Up to where the 'Alphas' (Shapeshift/Vamp) start appearing, cool stuff.

Overall, it's a good show. Although I really wish they'd just kept it at the Monster Of The Week level of things, without all the metaplot, in-fighting, and drama that develops as the series goes on.

I'd almost think the CS would approve of the show except for them using exorcism rituals. Although there is the psionic power of exorcism, their reliance on pentagrams and stuff to do it smacks more of the 'magic spell' type. Plus there being a good angel is something I don't think would sit well with them, I don't think they like Spirits of Light.

Agreed.
The use of salt and burning the bones and such, though?
They'd be all about that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:*shrug* it stands to reason that if there was a threat big enough to threaten a city of dragons when tolkeen established their city, it would have been mentioned.

I obviously don't know enough about the history of Tolkeen; I didn't know that there WAS a city of dragons in that area before Tolkeen existed.
I assumed that the dragon population showed up over time, like the rest of the population.

generally speaking, dragon communities don't form over time. or at all. it's an entire community of dragons that all have similar very specialized magical knowledge. all evidence points to these dragons being different from normal, but all of them are different in the same ways (they form a community, and they are all shadow dragons).

so far as i can tell, the evidence points pretty firmly to them having lived as a group for some time. it is likely that they largely moved in as a group, because it isn't like there were other groups of dragons around that they could have come from gradually.

but even if we suppose the dragons weren't part of the founders of the nation of tolkeen, the available evidence points quite clearly to the fact that the founders had the tools to deal with whatever was in the area before tolkeen was founded (on the basis that they obviously did survive).

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

Considering the topic is 'the CS are not the bad guy' and they most demonstrably ARE the bad guy then no, no one has managed to convince me that black is actually white.

I've always thought they're a bad guy, but I also think they impose order in a chaotic world. It isn't the good, moral order that would be preferred by many in this thread (including myself, I'm not okay with genocide) but I.don't think they'd THE bad guy.

Though after reading this thread, some of my smaller points have changed, but it had to do with not having all the information.

But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

The only way to argue that the CS is not the bad guy is to accept their central premise, that humans are the only ones with a right to life while on Earth, and that all other life must be destroyed or forced back through the rifts. You have to accept that non-humans cannot live with humans, are inherently inimical to them, and that magic cannot be used to the benefit of humanity and its allies.

Once you make that leap, though, you run into a problem... namely, the states that exist that integrate humans, non-humans, and/or magic. Cities like Lazlo and Houstown. Nations like the NDR or England. If the Coalition's central premise is correct, then these nations cannot exist. That these nations do exist means that the Coalition is wrong, and murdering lots of people out of a reactionary racism and technophobia.

So the Coalition can't be good guys, they're based on a central premise which is wrong, and leads to mass murder. If they existed in isolation, you might forgive their ignorance... but they're surrounded by nations who disprove their ideas, and cling to them anyway.

Blue_Lion wrote: So people where willing to do what they thought they had to protect there home land because they thaght they had no other way but it is there fault for not choosing to leave.

That's just not the situation we're talking about. That's 'spin'. The situation just isn't how you presented it. 1) Not their homeland. They were from rifts and other dimensions. 2) They didn't think they HAD to do it, and had no other way, they were -told- to run. It's not like there was only one option what so ever. They had multiple options. 1) Run. Get out of the way. Survive. 2) Fight but don't embrace evil to do so. 3) Hide, as other magic cities/nations do, 4) Fight and embrace evil.

They --chose-- one of 4 very viable options. That choice, marks them as evil.

Blue_Lion wrote:
The impression I got was the leaders typically seen as good did not want to get involved be cause they did not condone the actions that Tolkeen was willing to do to protect themselves.

That was part of it. Some of the other nations wern't down with diving face first into evil, but the other part was the firmly held conviction that even if they all teamed up, (Which would never happen) It wouldn't matter anyway. Even if they -did- all team up, the CS would -still win-. So it was pointless to do so. It would just be lining up to die, for someone elses war.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Not that I think that Tolkeen was good but there path to evil was paved with good intentions. The ends justifies the means as I said places you on the slippery slope to evil.

The thing is, it wasn't. Their intentions wern't 'good' when they chose the path of evil. Their intentions were... evil. They didn't goodly bust armies of lothsome demons. Tolkeen were threatened (Very very clearly, they were. no doubt about it) and instead of responding in possible good ways, decided to destroy the CS when they came calling.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Also the path that Tolkeen took to evil was not quick they new for years that the CS was going to come for them. In fact the CS even had earlier failed attacks.

It was quick on the scale of cities/nations. in under 10 years they went from "A city of 'good' to busting out literal armies of demons and equipping them to slaughter.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tolkeen did not choose to go war they chose not to abandon there homes there is a slight difference.

Semantics. They chose to engage in war and militarized their nation for years, up to and including breaking out armies of demons and equipping those demonic armies with technowizard weaponry.

Blue_Lion wrote:
You claim would be like if Mexico invaded Texas and Texans fought back claiming Texas chose to go to war, war brought to them and they where part of it even if they chose not to be. If a army declares war and invades a nation even if the people fled war was brought to them not them choosing to go to war.

.... ok, ignoring a bit of the weird sentence structure there. 1) The military in Texas could pretty handily whup Mexico. lol but I know that's not your point. 2) It's not like that at all. It would be like.... If China attacked Hawaii, a small state out by itself, but warned them for 10 years they were coming, and instead of getting the heck off Hawaii, the Hawaiians decided to develop genetic warfare (About as close as we can get to demons) and using it on the Chinese, where the bio weapon would target people of chinese descent and kill them in seconds but everyone else be ok.

Blue_Lion wrote:
And one thing you they should have just turned tail and run over looks is where would they go and how would they get there.

Anywhere they want. Rifts. Not trying to be funny or quirky. they had the people to open rifts to the point they searched for, and found a demonic prision with thousands and thousands of demons to bust out and get to fight for them. They could have dedicated those resources to finding some where else to move their people to.

Even failing that, with 10 years, they could have evacuated mundanely. I.E. Packed up and traveled overland. The Earth of Rifts is largely uncharted, unclaimed wilderness. They could have moved 1000 miles away and set up a new city. Hidden this time, peaceful and with out killing anyone or busting out one demon.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Tolkeen was a major nation on north America How many places had the infrastructure in place to accept such a large amount of refugees. Lazlo could not, Kingsdale could not, the Indian nations would most likely not. So saying they should have run is easy to say but for a nation hard to do.

It's a 'nation' in that "Cities" are "nations" in rifts earth.

And for the record I'm not talking about running to another group and living there. I meant. "Run and set up YOUR city, some place else" I.E. yeah, start over. new. Some where that's not right next door to the people that want to kill you for being dangerous and scary and have the MEANS to kill you because of it.

They have "magic", which is the great equalizer. You send out people. Scout out a new location. Then you lay out your city. Those elementals they used in war so effectively, could clear the land. Build buildings, roads, etc. The magic and resources used to make all those war machines, could have been used instead to move the people and resources of Tolkeen to 'New Tolkeen'. The magic used to rift in thousands and thousands of giant fishy demons, could have been used to rift stuff to new Tolkeen. The magic and resources spent to make the hand wave 'Swallow nukes" Shield, could have been better spent to find a way to hide "New Tolkeen" From observation. We know it can be done. Cities in the magic zone use it. patrols can pass with in a few yards of the city walls and never see them.

Was tolkeen 'small'. Yes and No. It's not 'small' for Rifts earth, but it wasn't huge in terms of overall numbers. "Kingdom" is kinda putting on airs. It Was a city with a couple of smaller cities around it. They could have moved if they spent years doing so, instead of years going psychotic and evil.

Blue_Lion wrote:So wait the existence of 1 high level spell changes how a nation thinks.

To be fair, there's many more than just the 1. The 1 was just one quoted that would make things easier.

Blue_Lion wrote: The whole feel and text is that was that war with the CS was inevitable means they felt they had no choice.

It was only inevitable, --due to the choices that tolkeen made--. Yes the CS was coming over the hill, but they took their sweet time didn't they? Tolkeen had other options, they chose to fight, even after being told that it was stupid to do so. That's what made it inevitable. Pride.

Blue_Lion wrote:
But lets say that they did evacuate without fighting before the war and went to near by nation such as Lazlo (not that Lazlo could take them) then when the CS invaded their territory with no resistance they would fallow the fleeing mages and attack Lazlo.

If you have magical resources, and the ability to go some where far far away, safer, why would you choose to just move one house down the street? This would be silly. You don't 'run' from someone 10 feet and call 'er good. If you're going to run you get the heck out of dodge.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tolkeen knew from CS posturing that the CS was planning to attack before the folly there is no evidence that they used any dark magic they relied on defensive ability to withstand the assault then attacked with what was on hand to drive back the small CS force. AS to CS attacks before that the CS often sends patrols and troops into others territories and these are small invasions and or attacks if they go into another nations territory.

Tolkeen took years and years to build up their military, including the dark stuff. It's not like they were good good good good omg EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL all of the sudden.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Tolkeen was not part of any collation that attacked the CS nor did they actively promote terrorist against the CS. So you are misdirecting.

They were grouped with the other magic nations and allied with them to varying degrees. And they were the 'closest threat' at the time. (A threat they proved to be very much correct)

Blue_Lion wrote:
The number of people in the nation if they all left would be to much of a strain for most of NA, it is more than just planning ahead they need food and shelters and most nations do not have large surplus of that in rifts.

Again you seem to be misunderstanding their numbers. They're a 'Nation' in the way that.. Houston is a "Nation" or Tampa is a 'Kingdom'. There's people there but there isn't 100s of millions. Resources would be a thing that needed to be addressed, but they had years. They could have used magic to increase the yeild of their crops and multiply their food. They could have stored it. The other resources they could have... flat out -bought- with the millions if not billions they spent militarizing their nation. A few years of prep for the 'Trip', as forward elements built the city walls in their new location. The entire city's output being geared towards moving, then you move.

Blue_Lion wrote: So your solution to not go to war is send your strongest men to your boarders to cover peoples escape, yea there is no chance the Cs would misread that and attack. In addition the Cs command had a personal grudge against Tolkeen and the people in it, they may not have let them escape. During the final siege the CS leveled and destroyed every small town and village they came a crossed including the all human no magic pro CS ones. Even if the humans where not fighting and would have liked to join the CS they got attacked.

"Might have" You gotta remember the CS took a decade to get rolling on it too. Like Tolkeen they couldn't just wake up on teusday and decide to roll over and start a fight that big. The CS Martialed it's forces and then went to war when it 'could' as well.

And again it comes back to 'Magic'. Tolkeen did it's militarizing in secret. The CS didn't know about the armies of demons. The nuke swallowing super weapon, etc. If they could hide literal -armies- of -giant fish demons- outfitted with technowizardry weapons and arms and stuff. They could have hid their evacuation.

If Tolkeen had bailed, the CS surely would have been curious, but if tolkeen was smart they'd have done so covertly. So when the CS Came over the hill they found.... nothing. The cities might look busteling but when the CS get there, they're empty. Stripped down to the paint. Heck even buildings having been stripped. Holes in the ground where buildings used to be. Dust in the streets.

If Tolkeen was a bit irked they could have left it just chock FULL Of magical booby traps. Every step could set off one. etc.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tor wrote:I think maybe Lazlo just got spooked by the shock. First Tolkeen said nobody was coming, then they all came in a rush. Had Tolkeen actually been open to evacuation and co-operated with Lazlo they could've found a plan for dealing with the refugees manageably. Being able to predict and prepare for the numbers would've made them more able to do it. If not as a permanent residence then as a waystation ready to send them to other places, giving them time to broker talks with other living spaces.

Maybe in an ideal world but food production would be an issue there is only so much food planted and grown every where and as people move in you need more space for farming and for them to live. Even growing nations have a limit and you are talking about a nation that had two large cities to evacuate.
Doing it in a way that would not stress would take decades to do. In addition travel in rifts is not always the safest. So for many it turns into which is a more immediate threat to survival leaving or staying.

Again not trying to be funny or quip in any way, but they had magic. There's magic that would make this effortless. They could have spent years and magical resources making this not a problem.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:One of the problems with cities like Tolkeen is that with their access to magic, they could actually have moved their population to another, infinitely safer and more peaceful dimension.
Of all the worlds in the Megaverse, Rifts Earth isn't one that anybody should want to stay at, unless they're power-hungry like the Splugorth, or fanatical like the Coalition.

except that home is home, no matter where it is. i can understand that rationally, it is safer to leave than it would be to try and fight to defend it against a very powerful enemy.

but at the same time, i also understand that this is where they live. they've given of themselves to make a place that was, for a time, safe, an oasis in a wasteland desert full of monsters and bandits. they've taken wilderness land and made it into a home, cleared room for crops, laboured over them for years in some cases. it isn't easy to just walk away from that.

it would be like telling someone they should just walk away from a house that they built for their family with their own hands and after years they've finally paid off all the debts they incurred to be able to afford that, and then telling them "well you should just abandon that home without a fight". yeah, something dangerous might be coming, but some things are worth fighting for. this is not just some random patch of land. it is their home.

I understand what you're saying. There's fighting for your home. Then there's 'Lets have our entire nation die, and in the end, not even have made a point other than a speed bump".

From the very start, there was -noone- on rifts earth that thought Tolkeen could win. Not even tolkeen, to the point they ended up bringing in literal armies of Demons to fight for them. (and by that point, pretty clear their leaders were insane.)

There is such a thing as 'fighting for a principal'. But there's also 'Total obliteration over a bit of land, when you -can- even if it's tough, live out your lives happy and free and ... you know.. not dead, if you get out, while the gettin's good."

It circles back around to pride and hubris.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah... there are other patches of land, and other homes.

sure, but once you've built one, i just don't see how we can fault them for wanting to keep the one they have.

yeah, it turns out that there is a definite drawback to the place they chose... but we have no indication that when they chose the location, that drawback was evident.

also, it seems likely they had some hefty investment into the ley line triangle thing... they developed a few spells that can only work in such a location, and created a special machine for it... it is possible that in some way, they actually had need of three ley line nexuses in such close proximity, which wouldn't generally be available just anywhere.

You do have a point, but only up to a point.

When the decision boils down to "Stay here in your -home- and DIE a horrible death, or run, build a new home and live" .... Your home is your home but if stayihng there is certain death, you move.

Alrik Vas wrote:This is not my personal point of view, but something others have pointed out:

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully. These people made their homes there, not everyone could dimensional travel, so they set up where it was, to them, safest in a bad, bad world. Now they're expected to give it up or fight for it?

That's the way of nations all over the planet though. Has been all through history. The Native Americans shouldn't have had to move either. Nor any people of any country, ever establishing and then expanding it's borders.

The point is not really one to be made. It's 'true' in that yeah if all things were good in a perfect world they shouldn't have to move, but that's basicly going "people shouldn't be people as we know them to be for thousands of years.

eliakon wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:This is not my personal point of view, but something others have pointed out:

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully. These people made their homes there, not everyone could dimensional travel, so they set up where it was, to them, safest in a bad, bad world. Now they're expected to give it up or fight for it?

No it seems that they are expected to simply give it up and move.
The argument I am seeing here is that some how choosing to defend themselves from an aggressor makes them the bad guy some how.....

It's the 'how' they chose to defend themselves that made them the bad guy.

It's not hard to figure out. They had options.

1) Leave. Run. Go live somewhere else.
2) Hide. Use magic as other magic nations do to simply not be there.
3) Fight, but not devolve into evil. Keep moral ideals and 'good'. Fight to defend your homes with out the use of dark magic, or armies of demons.
or.
4) Go evil in the attempt to kill your aggressors. Rift in literal armies of demons to fight for you. Spend millions and millions and magical resources to out fit those demons.


Tolkeen -chose- number 4. They -chose- to be evil. That's why they're evil. They decided to be.

Mark Hall wrote:The only way to argue that the CS is not the bad guy is to accept their central premise, that humans are the only ones with a right to life while on Earth, and that all other life must be destroyed or forced back through the rifts. You have to accept that non-humans cannot live with humans, are inherently inimical to them, and that magic cannot be used to the benefit of humanity and its allies.

Once you make that leap, though, you run into a problem... namely, the states that exist that integrate humans, non-humans, and/or magic. Cities like Lazlo and Houstown. Nations like the NDR or England. If the Coalition's central premise is correct, then these nations cannot exist. That these nations do exist means that the Coalition is wrong, and murdering lots of people out of a reactionary racism and technophobia.

So the Coalition can't be good guys, they're based on a central premise which is wrong, and leads to mass murder. If they existed in isolation, you might forgive their ignorance... but they're surrounded by nations who disprove their ideas, and cling to them anyway.

At least if they were like Free Quebec you could marginally tolerate them, since FQ has that 'you leave us alone we'll leave you alone even if you are a filthy non-human/magic-user' policy. You don't mind the ignorance as much when they aren't a threat and simply hide away in their mega-cities but the CS actively go around killing everyone that disproves their hate-filled views and policies making them an active threat that everyone else has to fight against to survive. Few bother FQ because it leaves everyone else alone, they aren't going around provoking people. They only have to deal with the occasional evil sort that don't care about the target just that it have something that will satisfy some urge of theirs.

Mark Hall wrote:The only way to argue that the CS is not the bad guy is to accept their central premise, that humans are the only ones with a right to life while on Earth, and that all other life must be destroyed or forced back through the rifts. You have to accept that non-humans cannot live with humans, are inherently inimical to them, and that magic cannot be used to the benefit of humanity and its allies.

Untrue. Another way to argue that the CS is not "the bad guy" is to focus on the semantics of what exactly being "the bad guy" entails.
And what exactly "The CS" entails.

The current Coalition States government are bad guys... but they're not THE bad-guys of the Rifts setting. Not with stuff like Nyxla, Mechanoids, etc. running around out there. The CS are just Nazis, and there are actual DEMONS running around.
And yeah, the CS does some horrible things... but so do most big governments. Does that make the nation itself evil, even if the people are of average alignments?
Don't answer--it's a matter of philosophy, which is exactly why this conversation could go on forever.

[quote]Once you make that leap, though, you run into a problem... namely, the states that exist that integrate humans, non-humans, and/or magic. Cities like Lazlo and Houstown. Nations like the NDR or England. If the Coalition's central premise is correct, then these nations cannot exist. That these nations do exist means that the Coalition is wrong, and murdering lots of people out of a reactionary racism and technophobia.[quote]

That depends on how harmonious those nations are, and why.
Personally, I find it very hard to imagine an Adult Dragon sitting down with humans and thinking of them as equal... because we're NOT their equals. Yet human nature is such that we generally want to be treated as equals, or to worship whatever we think is superior to us (hence the cult of Dragonwright and such).
Considering the extent of racism, classism, sexism, and general prejudice in the world today, I find it hard to believe that any of the integrated cities are any less dystopic than Chi-Town. They're just likely to be messed up in a different way.

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:So the Coalition can't be good guys, they're based on a central premise which is wrong, and leads to mass murder. If they existed in isolation, you might forgive their ignorance... but they're surrounded by nations who disprove their ideas, and cling to them anyway.

At least if they were like Free Quebec you could marginally tolerate them, since FQ has that 'you leave us alone we'll leave you alone even if you are a filthy non-human/magic-user' policy. You don't mind the ignorance as much when they aren't a threat and simply hide away in their mega-cities but the CS actively go around killing everyone that disproves their hate-filled views and policies making them an active threat that everyone else has to fight against to survive. Few bother FQ because it leaves everyone else alone, they aren't going around provoking people. They only have to deal with the occasional evil sort that don't care about the target just that it have something that will satisfy some urge of theirs.

This is also true; it's far easier to deal with isolationist ignorance than it is expansionist ignorance.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's the 'how' they chose to defend themselves that made them the bad guy.

"A bad guy".

Not "THE bad guy".



--flatline

nobody expected tolkeen to win a straight-up war (which makes it all the more confusing that they decided to make a frontal assault, ever, but that's another story).

that doesn't mean tolkeen can't win the war. nobody expected america to win the war against britain when they were fighting for their independence. but they did win. nobody expected the greeks to win when persia invaded. but they did. nobody in their right mind would have expected vietnam to win a war against the united states, but they did (more or less).

they just didn't do it in frontal assaults by "fighting fair". they did it mostly by persuading their enemy that the cost was too high and the benefit too low to continue.

up until the sorcerer's revenge, the CS was making barely any progress. they were in two wars that weren't going well, they were suffering horrific losses, their soldiers had absolutely awful morale, the whole thing was threatening to become a PR disaster, and tolkeen hadn't even let loose their most devastating attacks (including plans to destroy most of the agriculture of the CS with weather control, for example). had tolkeen managed to get some of the CS's other enemies to actually make a move against the CS, or had free quebec not managed to find a situation that let the CS sue for peace without looking bad, or had tolkeen not created a massive amount of negative press for themselves in the sorcerer's revenge, or had things otherwise gone differently... well, i hesitate to say that tolkeen would have won the war, because obviously the CS still had a lot of troops and resources, but it is not unrealistic to suppose that the war *could* have ended with the CS deciding that destroying tolkeen was more effort than it was worth, just like they decided with free quebec, and might have just declared "victory" by pointing out that they had captured X number of people and pretending that was their goal all along.

it might not have ever been a particularly *great* chance, but it was entirely possible.

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Uh no, chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

I disagree, but that's okay. Not everyone has to see it the same way.

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Uh no, chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

That makes no sense.
The CS is definitely order. They're specifically categorizing life forms into groups, regulating ways of life, and trying to organize the world into a specific form.
That's order.

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Uh no, chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

I disagree with this.

Yes, the CS did create chaos, and they created chaos in lots of places. However, within their borders, especially within the megacities, they have created order. People get up, go to work, come home. Kids are raised in relative safety. Psychics are cataloged, laws are enforced relatively fairly (within the prejudices of the order created), and so on and so forth. It's not necessarily good or right... this is a racist dictatorship, after all... but it is order.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Uh no, chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

I disagree with this.

Yes, the CS did create chaos, and they created chaos in lots of places. However, within their borders, especially within the megacities, they have created order. People get up, go to work, come home. Kids are raised in relative safety. Psychics are cataloged, laws are enforced relatively fairly (within the prejudices of the order created), and so on and so forth. It's not necessarily good or right... this is a racist dictatorship, after all... but it is order.

One problem here....
Order is not Good nor is Chaos Bad.
You can be both Ordered and Evil/Bad or Chaotic and Good.....
So the fact that the CS makes chaos or order has nothing at all to do if they are good or bad

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I disagree with this.

Yes, the CS did create chaos, and they created chaos in lots of places. However, within their borders, especially within the megacities, they have created order. People get up, go to work, come home. Kids are raised in relative safety. Psychics are cataloged, laws are enforced relatively fairly (within the prejudices of the order created), and so on and so forth. It's not necessarily good or right... this is a racist dictatorship, after all... but it is order.

One problem here....
Order is not Good nor is Chaos Bad.
You can be both Ordered and Evil/Bad or Chaotic and Good.....
So the fact that the CS makes chaos or order has nothing at all to do if they are good or bad

And that's exactly what I said. They create order, not good.

Mark Hall wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I disagree with this.

Yes, the CS did create chaos, and they created chaos in lots of places. However, within their borders, especially within the megacities, they have created order. People get up, go to work, come home. Kids are raised in relative safety. Psychics are cataloged, laws are enforced relatively fairly (within the prejudices of the order created), and so on and so forth. It's not necessarily good or right... this is a racist dictatorship, after all... but it is order.

One problem here....
Order is not Good nor is Chaos Bad.
You can be both Ordered and Evil/Bad or Chaotic and Good.....
So the fact that the CS makes chaos or order has nothing at all to do if they are good or bad

And that's exactly what I said. They create order, not good.

Exactly.
The Xiticix create order. So did the Nazis.
Not the same as creating good.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Nightmask wrote:But they don't impose order on a chaotic world, they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world. You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you? Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

What is order for the Spider is chaos for the fly.

They don't stomp about with random executions, there's an ordered reason for it. You don't have to like it (I.don't) but it's there.

Uh no, chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

I disagree with this.

Yes, the CS did create chaos, and they created chaos in lots of places. However, within their borders, especially within the megacities, they have created order. People get up, go to work, come home. Kids are raised in relative safety. Psychics are cataloged, laws are enforced relatively fairly (within the prejudices of the order created), and so on and so forth. It's not necessarily good or right... this is a racist dictatorship, after all... but it is order.

Except they didn't bring about any order, they only created more chaos, and they certainly didn't increase the level of order or safety within their borders they decreased it. Going with the most common example when they attacked and destroyed Tolkeen they generated a great deal of chaos and uncertainty that increased the threat level to those living in its borders since they destroyed a group that had been creating order in the area replacing it with not just chaos but chaos with a reason to go after members of the CS. The chaos the CS creates does not benefit its people at all, it does not increase the level of order or safety in its borders no matter what they might claim ICly. Just like in RL when we see one nation invade another it doesn't make things safer for its people it just generates more threats to their people.

But wars end and stability resurfaces. There CS hasn't been at war with Tolkeen since both nations inception. In story it was a more recent thing.

Nightmask wrote:Except they didn't bring about any order, they only created more chaos, and they certainly didn't increase the level of order or safety within their borders they decreased it. Going with the most common example when they attacked and destroyed Tolkeen they generated a great deal of chaos and uncertainty that increased the threat level to those living in its borders since they destroyed a group that had been creating order in the area replacing it with not just chaos but chaos with a reason to go after members of the CS. The chaos the CS creates does not benefit its people at all, it does not increase the level of order or safety in its borders no matter what they might claim ICly. Just like in RL when we see one nation invade another it doesn't make things safer for its people it just generates more threats to their people.

You keep insisting that they created chaos, but you're not showing HOW. I can point to several ways in which they have increased order in the world...

1) Simple consolidation of their territories and defense of fortress cities.
2) Alliances between states, allowing a more orderly flow of resources, and increasing the amount of territory under a single law.
3) International agreements, such as with the NDR and Colombia. Even if these are close relationships, they help to produce more stability.
3a) Intracontinental agreements, like those with FQ, MI, and NG. While FQ is no longer part of the CS, stable relationships between regional powers creates order.
4) Controlling rift outbreaks at St. Louis, reducing its capacity to increase entropy.


Tolkeen's destruction would cause a spike in entropy, but that spike is going to level out as Tolkeen loyalists die or move on. Meanwhile, its removal reduced long-term hostilities by turning one of the larger ideological and political conflicts in North America from a hot/cold war into a smoking crater and a dwindling insurgency. It means that CS resources are free to concentrate on other threats to the stability they've created; there's very little at their western front, now, and they can look east to the FoM.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Except they didn't bring about any order, they only created more chaos, and they certainly didn't increase the level of order or safety within their borders they decreased it. Going with the most common example when they attacked and destroyed Tolkeen they generated a great deal of chaos and uncertainty that increased the threat level to those living in its borders since they destroyed a group that had been creating order in the area replacing it with not just chaos but chaos with a reason to go after members of the CS. The chaos the CS creates does not benefit its people at all, it does not increase the level of order or safety in its borders no matter what they might claim ICly. Just like in RL when we see one nation invade another it doesn't make things safer for its people it just generates more threats to their people.

You keep insisting that they created chaos, but you're not showing HOW. I can point to several ways in which they have increased order in the world...

I have no idea how you can say that if you've actually read my posts or continue to claim that they increased order anywhere.

Mark Hall wrote:1) Simple consolidation of their territories and defense of fortress cities.
2) Alliances between states, allowing a more orderly flow of resources, and increasing the amount of territory under a single law.
3) International agreements, such as with the NDR and Colombia. Even if these are close relationships, they help to produce more stability.
3a) Intracontinental agreements, like those with FQ, MI, and NG. While FQ is no longer part of the CS, stable relationships between regional powers creates order.
4) Controlling rift outbreaks at St. Louis, reducing its capacity to increase entropy.

1) They didn't consolidate their territories, they went and conquered other people's territories, nor did they improve the defense of the cities or the CS in general running around killing people just for existing because it makes everyone want to kill THEM that otherwise wouldn't have desired to do so.
2) You're reaching, particularly if you're trying to rate the entire existence of the CS as a positive thing in providing order, while dismissing all the order generated by everyone else that they killed thereby removing that order.
3) They caused one of their own member states to leave due to their aggressive efforts to force control onto everyone, that generated DISorder not order. They may have saved face by doing some appeasing to reaquire some lose ties to FQ but they still generated chaos nor order and those intercontinental agreement really haven't generated more order in general.
4) Something anyone could do, the CS isn't indispensable. Meanwhile how many destructive rift events did they cause in attacking and destroying Tolkeen? Far too many.

Mark Hall wrote:Tolkeen's destruction would cause a spike in entropy, but that spike is going to level out as Tolkeen loyalists die or move on. Meanwhile, its removal reduced long-term hostilities by turning one of the larger ideological and political conflicts in North America from a hot/cold war into a smoking crater and a dwindling insurgency. It means that CS resources are free to concentrate on other threats to the stability they've created; there's very little at their western front, now, and they can look east to the FoM.

You're reaching with that argument, since again you're dismissing the stabilizing influence and ORDER that Tolkeen brought to the area. Tolkeen provided order to the area, reducing the danger for everyone that lived in the region including the CS but the CS has no destroyed it increasing the overall chaos and danger to everyone. There is no 'leveling off' of the chaos caused by its destruction because it acted to reduce and prevent dangerous threats and without it those threats now go unopposed which means they'll be attacking and disrupting the interests of the CS. That's what happens when you destroy a source of order, without some way of replacing it you only end up with disorder. Nothing that the CS did made anyone safer, did not make things more orderly, it just made things worse for everyone.

Remember, places like Tolkeen introduced ORDER, their destruction introduces CHAOS because they are no longer their imposing order for the benefit of everyone. Their ends up a vacuum where threats that were prevented no longer are because the order those locations provided to the area no longer exists. Tolkeen's existence helped to PROTECT the CS but no longer does now, and all the nexus points and other hazards they used to manage are now running wild with no one to keep them from doing so.

Tolkeen brought order.
The CS disrupted that order, and there is currently chaos in that region.
Meanwhile, there is order the majority of the CS territories.

The USA deposed Saddam and brought chaos to Iraq.
Does that mean that the USA doesn't create or enforce any order?

Killer Cyborg wrote:The use of salt and burning the bones and such, though? They'd be all about that.

Maybe they could just cut out the part with the exorcism rituals? Edit out offensive stuff kind of like what happened with a lot of earlier anime dubs ported to the west?

I could see them leaving in the demon-blood stuff, because even though that's stuff the CS hates, Supernatural clearly paints a downside to it.

I'd probably leave out the stuff about "you can cure a vampire so long as they don't drink human blood after turning" thing though, or the 'dead man's blood' thing, since either of those could give people the wrong idea about vampires and be dangerous.

Or, if they didn't take it out, maybe include interlude warnings where a CS authority notifies the audience that this was superstition and is confirmed to not work, so kill all vamps, don't try to save them, and don't try dead man's blood, simple water guns work better.

Nightmask wrote:they don't impose order on a chaotic world
they introduce more chaos and reduce the degree of order in the world.
You don't think that going around randomly killing people for being different actually creates order do you?

Since they kill people for specific reasons (being supernatural, being wizards, being shapechangers, etc) it is hardly "random".

Also yes, I do think it increases the level of order, making it less chaotic.

It would be incredibly disorderly to live in a society infested with changelings and dragons. You could not easily hold them accountable for crimes and it would allow them to frame others for crimes very easily.

Having people who can 1-hit you through the chest is also pretty chaotic. People would live in fear.

Nightmask wrote:Did the Tolkeen war create more order or did it in fact create massive amounts of chaos and uncertainty and increase the threat of harm to everyone in North America?

It removed a haven for demons and magical terrorists, that's a decrease in chaos and an increase in certainty.

Mark Hall wrote:The only way to argue that the CS is not the bad guy is to accept their central premise, that humans are the only ones with a right to life while on Earth, and that all other life must be destroyed or forced back through the rifts.

I don't agree this to be a central premise of the CS. Viewing humans as the rightful rulers of earth whose well-being should be prioritized doesn't require destroying 'all other life'.

The CS allows D-Bee slaves, mutant servants, is allied to a nation with D-Bee citizens and considering an alliance with dwarven techno-wizard citizens.

Mark Hall wrote:You have to accept that non-humans cannot live with humans, are inherently inimical to them, and that magic cannot be used to the benefit of humanity and its allies.

Where does the CS claim magic can't be used to the benefit of humanity?

It's simply got a lot of downsides and now isn't the time to be allowing its use.

Mark Hall wrote:you run into a problem... namely, the states that exist that integrate humans, non-humans, and/or magic. Cities like Lazlo and Houstown. Nations like the NDR or England. If the Coalition's central premise is correct, then these nations cannot exist. That these nations do exist means that the Coalition is wrong, and murdering lots of people out of a reactionary racism and technophobia.

You want to hold up England, a nation with a puppet king controlled by an alien intelligence, as an example of how things ought to be?

We know too little about Lazlo to judge its quality of life. As for NDR, they booted the D-Bees and they are clearly ranked below humans even when they are rarely allowed to be citizens.

Mark Hall wrote:they're surrounded by nations who disprove their ideas, and cling to them anyway.

I haven't seen one nation that properly disproves the necessity of a human supremist ideal to secure human interests in a world filled with things more powerful than us.

Nightmask wrote:chaos is chaos. The actions of the CS created only chaos not order by any definition of the words.

The millions of humans this nation has allowed to exist speak otherwise.

Human peasants simply do not thrive in large numbers in the true chaos of Rifts, such as the wildernesses. They get eaten by Spiny Ravagers and stuff.

The CS is actually probably the most orderly, least chaotic place in North America, I would wager.

eliakon wrote:the fact that the CS makes chaos or order has nothing at all to do if they are good or bad

Agreed, I guess Alrik's initial comment didn't go far enough.

It is more than order: it is an order which benefits the survival of innocent mostly-defenseless humans who would have otherwise died, that sounds good to me.

Nightmask wrote:they didn't bring about any order, they only created more chaos, and they certainly didn't increase the level of order or safety within their borders they decreased it.

Source?

Nightmask wrote:Going with the most common example when they attacked and destroyed Tolkeen they generated a great deal of chaos and uncertainty that increased the threat level to those living in its borders since they destroyed a group that had been creating order in the area replacing it with not just chaos but chaos with a reason to go after members of the CS.

Tolkeen already had a reason to go after the CS. They were already attacking all CS presences in Minnesota even when the CS were not attacking them.

Attacking an enemy can always create some chaos but that can be a good choice in the long term.

Technically confronting the Axis Powers in World War 2 also increased chaos. It would have been less chaotic to simply allow them to hold the territory they conquered. Chaos isn't always bad if it is a means to long-term good.

Nightmask wrote:The chaos the CS creates does not benefit its people at all, it does not increase the level of order or safety in its borders no matter what they might claim ICly.

Source?

Nightmask wrote:1) They didn't consolidate their territories, they went and conquered other people's territories

The CS has actually done both. Not every consolidated territory is conquering, many were voluntary allies who petitioned to join.

Nightmask wrote:nor did they improve the defense of the cities or the CS in general running around killing people just for existing because it makes everyone want to kill THEM that otherwise wouldn't have desired to do so.

So you think the fortress cities in the CS and the ISS preventing Boogie-Men and Neuron Beasts from eating people in their sleep doesn't protect them?

Nightmask wrote:2) You're reaching, particularly if you're trying to rate the entire existence of the CS as a positive thing in providing order, while dismissing all the order generated by everyone else that they killed thereby removing that order.

The original Federation of Magic had some semblance of order, but it was order based on evil dueling wizards rulling over people, not something that looks out for the well-being of the people. It is okay to introduce brief chaos in a war to defeat evil.

Tolkeen also were clearly not an orderly city/nation, they were introducing many chaotic elements.

Nightmask wrote:3) They caused one of their own member states to leave due to their aggressive efforts to force control onto everyone, that generated DISorder not order.

Free Quebec was guilty of introducing disorder by not conforming to military regulations and by not accepting adequate anti-supernatural protections via Dog Boys. They were leaving the back door open to supernatural domination and had to be brought to line for the good of the people. Otherwise wizards from Lazlo could just saunter in and start casting Domination on everyone.

Nightmask wrote:4) Something anyone could do, the CS isn't indispensable. Meanwhile how many destructive rift events did they cause in attacking and destroying Tolkeen? Far too many.

Look at all the chaos the United States caused by invading Germany and Japan! Look at all the destruction of the land and property!

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The use of salt and burning the bones and such, though? They'd be all about that.

Maybe they could just cut out the part with the exorcism rituals? Edit out offensive stuff kind of like what happened with a lot of earlier anime dubs ported to the west?

I could see them leaving in the demon-blood stuff, because even though that's stuff the CS hates, Supernatural clearly paints a downside to it.

Hm. Actually, Exorcism is a psychic power in Palladium's games, one that takes 30 minutes prep time, and 6d6 minutes with the possessed person or animal. Just showing that the Winchesters are minor psychics could justify their use of exorcism ritual, although the CS wouldn't want to glorify it too much. That's where the demon blood bit could come in handy for them, easily modded as a "psychic powers can turn you to the darkside" plotline.

I'd probably leave out the stuff about "you can cure a vampire so long as they don't drink human blood after turning" thing though, or the 'dead man's blood' thing, since either of those could give people the wrong idea about vampires and be dangerous.

Or, if they didn't take it out, maybe include interlude warnings where a CS authority notifies the audience that this was superstition and is confirmed to not work, so kill all vamps, don't try to save them, and don't try dead man's blood, simple water guns work better.

Yup.

Nightmask wrote:Remember, places like Tolkeen introduced ORDER

In what ways did Tolkeen introduce ORDER in their domain that the CS has not introduced ORDER in their own domain before the Siege?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I guess that depends on how much free space you think there is in comparison to how many people.
I look at our universe, and I see that there's far, far more space than there are people, even on Earth... and especially in the big picture.

Sure, but on Earth the good most desirable places are the ones that get fought over. The places without people are generally the ones that require a good deal of work to make livable and don't have a lot to attract people. Where there's food and livable land, there's almost always people who claim it.

Elsewhere in the universe, we don't know any habitable places, with the closest to habitable ones in the solar system being ones that'd require a *lot* of work to make remotely near as livable as Earth.


Random worlds are more likely to be the equivalent of Earth deserts or scrubland or tundra- Sure, it's there, it's space, but it's also lacking in resources and colonizing it would be much more involved and slower than just walking through the portal and plunking down a colony. And if there is the world equivalent of a fertile valley rich in food ripe for colonization, but it has little rift activity and no one coming from it or announcing it's presence, how do you find it other than sifting through a huge variety of less fertile low-rift areas? Or conversely, if it has something to announce it's presence, odds are when you move in, there's gonna be someone there- just like you can travel super deep into the Amazon and find tribes of people.

Q99 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I guess that depends on how much free space you think there is in comparison to how many people.
I look at our universe, and I see that there's far, far more space than there are people, even on Earth... and especially in the big picture.

Sure, but on Earth the good most desirable places are the ones that get fought over. The places without people are generally the ones that require a good deal of work to make livable and don't have a lot to attract people. Where there's food and livable land, there's almost always people who claim it.

Elsewhere in the universe, we don't know any habitable places, with the closest to habitable ones in the solar system being ones that'd require a *lot* of work to make remotely near as livable as Earth.


Random worlds are more likely to be the equivalent of Earth deserts or scrubland or tundra- Sure, it's there, it's space, but it's also lacking in resources and colonizing it would be much more involved and slower than just walking through the portal and plunking down a colony. And if there is the world equivalent of a fertile valley rich in food ripe for colonization, but it has little rift activity and no one coming from it or announcing it's presence, how do you find it other than sifting through a huge variety of less fertile low-rift areas? Or conversely, if it has something to announce it's presence, odds are when you move in, there's gonna be someone there- just like you can travel super deep into the Amazon and find tribes of people.

*Leaps up and points finger* "OBJECTION!!!!"
"Calls for speculation on the part of the debaters!"
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Basically any argument that requires us to quantify how big the megaverse is, how densely populated it is, and how easy it is to search automatically come down to "Well the answer depends on what personal assumptions you plug in to the equations...." There is no canon anwers on the subject and even the books seem to differ. Any answer past "Bunches and bunches of dimensions each with lots and lots of people" is a personal, unsubstantiated opinion.......and thus arguing about it is utterly pointless.

We may not have the total size of the Megaverse but we do have specific places and sometimes allusions to how hard it is to get there.

Like... what there's now spare planet in the United Worlds of Warlock that Tolkeen can find space for a city on? =/

Tor wrote:We may not have the total size of the Megaverse but we do have specific places and sometimes allusions to how hard it is to get there.

Like... what there's now spare planet in the United Worlds of Warlock that Tolkeen can find space for a city on? =/

'Xactly.

eliakon wrote:*Leaps up and points finger* "OBJECTION!!!!"
"Calls for speculation on the part of the debaters!"
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Basically any argument that requires us to quantify how big the megaverse is, how densely populated it is, and how easy it is to search automatically come down to "Well the answer depends on what personal assumptions you plug in to the equations...." There is no canon anwers on the subject and even the books seem to differ. Any answer past "Bunches and bunches of dimensions each with lots and lots of people" is a personal, unsubstantiated opinion.......and thus arguing about it is utterly pointless.

Ah, but it doesn't have to require to know how big the megaverse is, or how densely populated- any world without rifts going to it is effectively irrelevant to the problem. Ten worlds or a billion dimensions with potentially inhabitable, nice, empty worlds with no rifts are equal for our purposes. The real question is only the last of the three, 'what can you get to with a reasonable amount of work?'.

The only real question, how easy to search, may not have an explicit answer, but there is evidence. There is multiple large communities of interdimensional travelers around, and randomly opened rifts regularly dump intelligence life or MDC critters, and even references to people just jumping into random rifts in emergencies and that being considered by expert dimensional travelers to be a very dangerous proposition, and no mention that I can think of that indicates it's easy to find a livable-but-empty world.


Additionally, some of the known dimensional travelers, if they found a bountiful but empty world, would simply use it. Splynncryth and his Atlantis, and the Soul Worm in South America, both have dimensional trading posts with hundreds of links, and yet Splynn has a mere 4 worlds, the Soul Worm none.

While we may not know the exact commonness of empty-yet-nice worlds, assumptions that'd lead to them being too common runs into the issue of, 'if they're that common, then why is it considered impressive- as we know it is- to have multiple worlds across multiple dimensions?'.

Q99 wrote: no mention that I can think of that indicates it's easy to find a livable-but-empty world.

No mention that it isn't either.

Additionally, some of the known dimensional travelers, if they found a bountiful but empty world, would simply use it.

That depends on what "bountiful" means to them. Real estate alone wouldn't cut it if the supply exceeds the demand. Splugorth, for example, would be looking for inhabited worlds--they're slavers. "Bounty" to them means easy harvesting of slaves.


Splynncryth and his Atlantis, and the Soul Worm in South America, both have dimensional trading posts with hundreds of links, and yet Splynn has a mere 4 worlds, the Soul Worm none.

While we may not know the exact commonness of empty-yet-nice worlds, assumptions that'd lead to them being too common runs into the issue of, 'if they're that common, then why is it considered impressive- as we know it is- to have multiple worlds across multiple dimensions?'.

Is it considered impressive on that scale of things?
Most people don't own even one planet... but Mechanoids eat planets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
I think it depends on how you look at it.

I'd say that places like the 3 Galaxies are unlikely to have a lot of uninhabited habitable worlds. Because of their tech base, and their population, they can pretty quickly set up base settlements on pretty much any world they find that has an atmosphere... or will even let them set up prefabs for creating their own enclaves.

They'll certainly have worlds with SPACE, especially from a 21st century Earth perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many worlds hovering around a million people, but still considered vital and vibrant. But I'd guess few that are truly uninhabited without something that makes them uninhabitable.

With the magic and technology available in Rifts, the realm of what is "habitable" is very wide.