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begw wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

K20A2_S wrote:The CS now does have the Technology to create psionics into non-psionic humans...........with a drawback or IQ being dropped 20% I believe and couple little side effect here and their......

Completly worth it in my opinion, they can make you a Nega Psychic, Burster, Zapper, and just give you Super Psionic powers.

I think that's something the CS would want to pump out for their next war against Magic users, get regular CS grunts and make them Nega Psychics, assign one Nega Psychic to each platoon or squad. Mages worst nightmare.

Except for the fact that in most places with magi, the magic is often paired with tech, to the greater benefit.
So you'd not only be fighting wizards, but 'borgs and juicers as well, most of the times.

The CS against Borgs and Juicers?!?
However will they compensate?

Some people are such big fan-boyz they intentionally overlook the point, which was: they usually don't fight JUST magic.
I'm done with this thread.

Jmacq1 wrote:Actually, the Coalition does actively suppress knowledge and literacy among its populace. If I recall correctly it's actually a crime for an unauthorized individual to demonstrate knowledge of reading and writing. That is most certainly "suppression of knowledge." Just because the society's elite are allowed to become literate doesn't mean knowledge and literacy aren't being suppressed, in other words.

You recall incorrectly.

It is not a crime to be able to read. Most think this, but it is untrue. I don't believe this is ever stated. CS does persecute those who have material (books) that the CS deems dangerous. In this case, yes, being able to read is probably an extension of a crime, but never a crime in and of itself.

Jmacq1 wrote:

Where is this information coming from? I'm almost certain one of those books said that literacy was "outlawed" except for the elite/loyal.

I certainly may be misremembering, but I definitely don't remember anything along the lines of what you're describing.

One could easily ask where you're getting your information from? I don't recall anywhere that it says literacy or all books are outlawed.

However, you asked for references so here they are:

Illiteracy is encouraged by the Coalition as it is a means of securing the empire's power base and hold over the people. Those who are literate will be viewed with suspicion unless they are a member of the Coalition's elite aristocracy or military.

The Literacy skill, Rifts main book page 32. It doesn't say that literacy is illegal, only that it is discouraged. Adultry is discouraged but not illegal.

Coalition Military Specialist OCC, page 54 of the Rifts main book lists Literacy (+10%) as an OCC skill.

This shows that they actively teach literacy to their officers The CS Military Specialist starts out as a Lieutenant).

The Coalition Technical Officer OCC, page 55 lists Literacy (+20%) as an OCC skill.

This shows that the CS will also teach it to their techs (this OCC while called an officer in the title starts out as a Corporal, an NCM rank).

Remember it is your duty, as honored citizens of the Coalition States, to report anyone who claims to be a scientist, scholar, teacher or doctor who does not have a state authorization card.

Page 78 of the Rifts main book under the Rogue Scientist.

This means it is legal for those with the authorization card to be these, literate, proffesions. Which also means you have to be authorized to practise these professions (they are legal for those who are authorized, not legal for those who aren't). It doesn't list being literate as illegal however.

To give their words greater impact, scholars frequently possess forbidden artifacts from man's past and articles from other civilizations of the present. Terrible things such as books, photographs, artwork, recordings, film and other things from the past and present.

Page 79 and 80 of the Rifts main book.

Note that it says that these items from man's past and from other civilizations in the present are forbidden. It does not say that all such items are forbidden. It would be easier to state "...forbidden objects such as books, photographs, artwork, recordings and film..." if ALL such things were forbidden. Instead it specifically states that items from "Man's past" and "other Civilizations" are forbidden. There is no reason to list these exceptions unless they are in fact that, exceptions to what is legal.

Sadly, at least 50% of the population of the Coalition States are illiterate, uneducated laborers.

Page 82 of the Rifts Main book.

This means nearly 50% of the population may be literate. That's a large chunk of the populaton for something that is illegal and is certainly more inclusive than just the elite of society.

Lone Star City, however is an anomaly to the rest of the CS. It's currently(sp) population is about 50,000 humans, 70% of which are literate and educated.

Page 143 of the Rifts main book.

While this is a statistically anamoly for the CS, it does go to show that literacy isn't necessarily illegal. And having 70% of a city being literate is hardly restricted to the elite. But again, its fair to say that Lone Star is something of an anamoly.

The territory's populace is mostly illiterate, including city dwellers and much of its ruling body. The literacy rate is 15%

Rifts main book, page 149.

This supports the idea of literacty being common only among the elite but does not state that it is illegal.

Well over 90% of the wilderness people are illiterate. However, the city dwellers are 70% literate and 50% are educated and skilled professionals.

I would even dare to say that Free Quebec has a free press and an informed population. Not surprisingly, this is another issue where the two powers do not agree (Chi-Town would prefer a less informed, less educated general populace).

Rifts main book, page 150.

This was written when Free Quebec was still a part of the CS and had to follow its laws. Note that it also says that there's a free press, meaning that a paper is legal. It also states that Chi-Town would prefer less informed and educated, not has outlawed literacy.

New books are recent publications printed for the CS elite (not intended for others) or publications produced and distributed by the literate underground. A typcial CS paperback book or video disc costs 20 credits. Underground books/discs cost about 30 to 50 credits. Forbidden books, such as Erin Tarn's Traversing our Modern World, will cost 200 to 800 credits (2D4X100). Old, Pre-Rifts books will vary greatly in price, depending largely on what the collectors market is currently like or the availability of its content. Technical journals of all kinds get top dollar.

Note: All Pre-Rifts books and recordings (both film and audio) are outlawed in the Coalition States! If a book is found, it is to be given to the authorities without being read. There are also new books that the CS has found to be dangerous and are forbidden!

Note again that there are specific exceptions made for Pre-Rifts artifacts. It also states that 'There are also new books...', not, 'All new books...' It even says that the CS prints new books. While not intended for the non-elite, it doesn't say that they're illegal for them.

Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those from the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version).

Page 29 of the Coalition War Campaign.

Note that the crime here is teaching literacy, not being literate. While making teaching literacy (without state authorization as noted above) makes it difficult to become literate, being literate itself is not listed as a crime.

Posession of subversive and dangerous materials: Being caught with Erin Tarn's many books is considered an act of treason and likely to end lead to interrogation and 15-20 years imprisonment.
Likewise, owning pre-Rifts books, maps, films, videotapes, and recordings of any kind is against the law.

Page 29 of the Coalition War Campaign.

Note that it refer's to Erin Tarn's books and pre-rifts books specifically. Not all books.

Though not strictly forbidden, the CS frowns upon formal education and literacy for the masses.

Page 21 of Rifts Adventure Sourcebook, Chi-Town 'Burbs: Forbidden knowledge.

This pretty much out and out says what others have said.

I'll rest my case there.

Cybermancer wrote:
However, you asked for references so here they are:

Illiteracy is encouraged by the Coalition as it is a means of securing the empire's power base and hold over the people. Those who are literate will be viewed with suspicion unless they are a member of the Coalition's elite aristocracy or military.

The Literacy skill, Rifts main book page 32. It doesn't say that literacy is illegal, only that it is discouraged. Adultry is discouraged but not illegal.

Coalition Military Specialist OCC, page 54 of the Rifts main book lists Literacy (+10%) as an OCC skill.

This shows that they actively teach literacy to their officers The CS Military Specialist starts out as a Lieutenant).

The Coalition Technical Officer OCC, page 55 lists Literacy (+20%) as an OCC skill.

This shows that the CS will also teach it to their techs (this OCC while called an officer in the title starts out as a Corporal, an NCM rank).

Having highlighted some of your own words ... I've come to the conclusion ...

The CS will make sure those with Specialist and or Technical positions will be enabled to learn to read and write .

While th VAST majority of the CS population will not be granted that ... its been flat out stated the CS likes to keep thier citizens as complacent an managable as possible .. an there for does not encourage thier being able to read or write .

Sadly, at least 50% of the population of the Coalition States are illiterate, uneducated laborers.

Better try more then that I think in Rue ... it even stats that something in the nieghborhood of up to 75% of the CS civ population is illiterate if not more tho atm I do not have the book with me so you will please have to allow me time to double check but I think it is around that number ...

Lone Star City, however is an anomaly to the rest of the CS. It's currently(sp) population is about 50,000 humans, 70% of which are literate and educated.

Yep Lone Star is also 90% scientists an officers ... very extreamly few civilians what so ever so they are not by any means the rule but are in fact thee exeption ...

Cybermancer wrote: Page 29 of the Coalition War Campaign.
being literate itself is not listed as a crime.

It might not be a crime per say but the fact that if your some one who is known to be able to read an write your under EXTREAM close supervision to the point that your very nearly a prisoner and one wrong move makes you an enemy in the eyes of the CS ..

Lenwen wrote:

It might not be a crime per say but the fact that if your some one who is known to be able to read an write your under EXTREAM close supervision to the point that your very nearly a prisoner and one wrong move makes you an enemy in the eyes of the CS ..

My post was to illustrate to Jmacq1 that literacy was not, as he was stating, illegal. In fact, my last qoute 'flat out' stated that it wasn't illegal. I have proven my stance (that literacy is not illegal in the CS). I did not at any time say that it was accepted or encouraged and indeed my quotes and my comments on those quotes do not show me trying to make that claim or taking that stance.

Nor do I recall anyone else making that claim. My post and those of others were in response to Jmacq1's claim that literacy was illegal and that he thought he recalled one of the books saying it was illegal. My post was intended to clarify that issue.

Furthermore, being literate does not automatically make you an enemy of the CS as they train their own people to be literate.

If you wish to argue that literacy is illegal in the CS states, then by all means. Please also provide quotes to back up your arguement although I can't see how you're going to top my last quote that states, "Though not strictly forbidden, the CS frowns upon formal education and literacy for the masses."

Again, NOT forbidden or illegal but frowned upon.

Do not try to draw me into an arguement over statements I am not making. Nothing in your last post refutes what I was saying (that literacy is in fact legal in the CS-if discouraged and possilbly hard to obtain). You seem to be trying to debate me on something I haven't said.

As for quoting the RUE, I stopped producing quotes after the one that 'flat out' proved the point I was making.

That literacy is not illegal in the CS.

However, if you wish to use the RUE to refute what I've said, provide quotes or page numbers. Otherwise you're in the same boat as Jmacq1, saying simply that you think that was what said. Yes, I noted that you said that the book wasn't in front of you, but then you shouldn't be trying to use statistics from it to refute my direct quotes. Wait until you have it to make your claims.

Cybermancer wrote:Lenwen wrote:

It might not be a crime per say but the fact that if your some one who is known to be able to read an write your under EXTREAM close supervision to the point that your very nearly a prisoner and one wrong move makes you an enemy in the eyes of the CS ..

My post was to illustrate to Jmacq1 that literacy was not, as he was stating, illegal. In fact, my last qoute 'flat out' stated that it wasn't illegal. I have proven my stance (that literacy is not illegal in the CS). I did not at any time say that it was accepted or encouraged and indeed my quotes and my comments on those quotes do not show me trying to make that claim or taking that stance.

Nor do I recall anyone else making that claim. My post and those of others were in response to Jmacq1's claim that literacy was illegal and that he thought he recalled one of the books saying it was illegal. My post was intended to clarify that issue.

Furthermore, being literate does not automatically make you an enemy of the CS as they train their own people to be literate.

If you wish to argue that literacy is illegal in the CS states, then by all means. Please also provide quotes to back up your arguement although I can't see how you're going to top my last quote that states, "Though not strictly forbidden, the CS frowns upon formal education and literacy for the masses."

Again, NOT forbidden or illegal but frowned upon.

Do not try to draw me into an arguement over statements I am not making. Nothing in your last post refutes what I was saying (that literacy is in fact legal in the CS-if discouraged and possilbly hard to obtain). You seem to be trying to debate me on something I haven't said.

As for quoting the RUE, I stopped producing quotes after the one that 'flat out' proved the point I was making.

That literacy is not illegal in the CS.

However, if you wish to use the RUE to refute what I've said, provide quotes or page numbers. Otherwise you're in the same boat as Jmacq1, saying simply that you think that was what said. Yes, I noted that you said that the book wasn't in front of you, but then you shouldn't be trying to use statistics from it to refute my direct quotes. Wait until you have it to make your claims.

And here I thought I was agree'ing with you ... perhaps you should reread my post .. I mearly thought that some of your percentages are off ... by alot ..

That is all ..

My percentages were direct quotes from the book.

That was why they were stated as quotes with page numbers.

Nor was there anything I could find in the RUE to refute them.

You have the oddest way of agreeing with someone I've ever seen.

when it says close to 50% are illerate does that mean functionally iilerate becasue I could see that happening without uch help from the government. Look at today how many people in the country can say write thier name and read the cat in the hat but by educational standards are not literate.

More than anything I love playing the Cs becasue it is playing the underdog. In a world were the land is besieged by the forecs of the rifts these brave men still fight. Its hard to really appreicate what the difference between a MD and SDC person is like in reality. Nearlty every dbee is MCS now. Watch the Terminator and that is how it would be to fight the DBEE.

Kenpachi wrote:I don't support them because there are many other avenues for human survival and advancement. NGR, Lazlo, and many other enclaves of human civilization are advancing well. And no doubt many humans are spread across the galaxy and there are many human settlements and civilizations elsewhere.

NGR is a human suprimncist state as well. Lazlo is dominated by dragons and other high powered d bees. Any othworld activites are irrelavent as rifts earth has no contact with them.

Welcome back

Feel free to join me on-


Where have you been, btw?

K20A2_S wrote:

Chad wrote:Welcome back

Feel free to join me on-

Is the CS Evil?

Where have you been, btw?

life takes over(house and daughter ect)........plus I started taking Muay Thai and Ju Jitsu again.......

good man

Empeor Prosek wishes all his soldiers to stay fit.



Everyone that says other people combine magic and tech

Take agood look at the rest of the world. They do not have the manufacturing power to produce anywhere the amount of tech the CS can.

I'm surprised there's not an option of "No, but I'll work with them against greater threats when the need arises." It DOES Happen. Most CS soldiers are not miscreant or diabolic, etc. And if Miscreant Evil demon lad shows up and Cyberknights and the Coalition arrive to fight it, it doesn't take a genius to see that the demon is going to become priority one for everyone.

I really don't consider the last bastion of humanity or the American way.

1) They keep the citizens from reading or learning the truth

2) They kill any non-human just for existing.

3) They is no equality among it's own citizenery.


They are just as vile and foul as Dunscan and his cronies.

THE CS MUST BE STOPPED!!!

Pro CS, as had been stated earlier (much earlier) in the thread, I agree that the CS is the best option for Humanity........imagine, if you will, what happens, when North America has settled down, and Lazlo's ideals were the winning beliefs........we would end up as a minority. What do we do when the evil/selfishly ambitious critter ends up in control, and goes 'humans are weak, useless scum, they are holding back our economy, and their weak minds are a threat to our security' and calls for a social cleansing. We are toast. NEVER rely on someone else's good graces. Period.

For me .. its really really bothersome ...
On one hand you have the CS ... script Immunity an all ...
and on the other ... everyone else ...

I'd take the Everyone else .. I love an underdog .. haha

Nope, don't support them...too close to the Nazis my parents had close shaves with...

I'm all CS (Well, actually FQ, love my GB.)

well I guess if you hate the CS you are okay with

worshiping dragons

slugorth

vampires

alien AIs

praying you are Indian

let's face it

look at humanity sdc not paticularly smart no innate magic

all we've got is conviction faith and will

csbioborg wrote:well I guess if you hate the CS you are okay with

worshiping dragons

slugorth

vampires

alien AIs

praying you are Indian

let's face it

look at humanity sdc not paticularly smart no innate magic

all we've got is conviction faith and will

My Faith is armor, in the Form of New style Dead boy EXO Armor.

My conviction is a C-29 Dragon fire Plasma rifle.

I wear a dragon tooth necklace, I earned my first tour. Not sure if that counts though

I would have chimed in earlier, but my demon overlords only just showed it to me.
I think the CS should be wiped out. Dude, their encroaching on my plans for immortality, which the overlords have assured they will grant me. One day.

CS totally. I understand what it is to be human, so do they. I am not a "KIll all D-Bees/Magic User" type of person but if I'm in the uniform I will uphold the standards of my nation. Better to work for transformation from inside than out. Sorry but being a human and competing against dragons,demons and other ilk is unappealing. There is a need for complete human power in the region. No need to fear getting into an altercation with a d-bee and getting my head punched off is a huge comfort that can not be glossed over.

The moral issues could get sticky for me but I know what every living creature is capable of, great good and tremendous evil. Both of those actions are selfish. I could wipe out a innocent non-human village 1 day and let another escape next week. It's all about who's around and mission objective.Even the USA of today isn't a democracy but a republic so living under CS rules would be very easy,if distasteful for me.

K20A2_S wrote:

Karsus wrote:
I think in the very early PA calendar the CS was truly one of humanity's best hopes. Before the war, I would say Lazlo or even Tolkeen / Stormspire.

They still are humanities best hopes, they unlike other kingdoms are run be human beings, unlike Lazlo who has a Dragon on the throne toying with humans emotions............

Tolkeen had a human king, who was corrupted by evil and allied himself with the most fould beings on earth....

CS stays pure and clean, strictly what's in the best interest in humanity.

Actually it was the CS that drove that king to be allied with the most foul beings on earth ..
Prior to the war he would never have allied with demons .

**EDIT**
My personal belief is that NGR / Japan are both the best hope for Humanity .. All around better hope then the CS ..

Stormchild wrote:While I have not, and will not read all 29 pages of replies and conversation, I have read some and have come to the conclusion that there are many people out there that believe that humanity deserves to remain, even after humans themselves nearly destroyed the planet. It was humans that caused the Rifts world to be. How is it that they are the ones that deserve to remain?

Because humanity didn't cause rifts. If you read, it was a combination of things, only one of the many things was humans fault. It was a specific day, planetary alignment, some other odds and ends I can't remember and then it was a war.

It is not just Erin Tarn's recounting that has given me the dim view of Prosek and his nazi-esque regime. His bio does that very well on it's own. How someone could think that a prejudicial, self-righteous, egocentric, megalomaniac could be the only hope that humanity has, is beyond me.

Because ruthlessness, cunning, deviants, disciplined, great leadership and undieing loyalty make really good traits for survival. I'm not gonna get into the whole nazi thing (I know nazi's were bad)...but IIRC from history class, Nazi's (as a military) was pretty devastating. I've heard it argued that had Hitler not attacked the Soviet union in such an unprepared manor, Germany could have beaten everybody in Europe. If Hitler had listened to his advisors (which Emperor Prosek does, as well as his son) everyone in Europe may be speaking German right now.

Love, kindness, compassion carring...those work for care-bears, but why not...they have lasers attatched to their chests.

Supporting the Coalition is just as bad as supporting the freaking vampire kingdoms as far as most of my characters are concerned. They are more often an obstacle then anything else.

The CS make great butt-monkeys and cannon fodder for the PC's.
As-written they are incompentent illiterate morons begging to be defeated in detail... and the only ones with brains are a raving xenophobic psychopath (Hmmm... I see parallels with another franchise, but i digress.), his son who is a magnificent bastich sabaryte, and a sociopathic genetisit with delusions of god-hood.

Yeah, the CS are great punchlines to many a joke
Sorta like Hitler and his goose-schteppin' corus-line

dark brandon wrote:

Stormchild wrote:While I have not, and will not read all 29 pages of replies and conversation, I have read some and have come to the conclusion that there are many people out there that believe that humanity deserves to remain, even after humans themselves nearly destroyed the planet. It was humans that caused the Rifts world to be. How is it that they are the ones that deserve to remain?

Because humanity didn't cause rifts. If you read, it was a combination of things, only one of the many things was humans fault. It was a specific day, planetary alignment, some other odds and ends I can't remember and then it was a war.

It is not just Erin Tarn's recounting that has given me the dim view of Prosek and his nazi-esque regime. His bio does that very well on it's own. How someone could think that a prejudicial, self-righteous, egocentric, megalomaniac could be the only hope that humanity has, is beyond me.

Because ruthlessness, cunning, deviants, disciplined, great leadership and undieing loyalty make really good traits for survival. I'm not gonna get into the whole nazi thing (I know nazi's were bad)...but IIRC from history class, Nazi's (as a military) was pretty devastating. I've heard it argued that had Hitler not attacked the Soviet union in such an unprepared manor, Germany could have beaten everybody in Europe. If Hitler had listened to his advisors (which Emperor Prosek does, as well as his son) everyone in Europe may be speaking German right now.

Love, kindness, compassion carring...those work for care-bears, but why not...they have lasers attatched to their chests.

Um... Brandon? They're all prime reasons why the CS is awesomely badass and stylish. They do nothing whatsoever to explain why you want to argue the case that they're the good guys.

While we're at it, you are basically doing the equivalent of arguing that the Native American population should rise up and massacre everyone who's ancestors came out to the US on a boat.

I think the big kicker with the CS, and one that a lot of people seem to overlook in favour of rooting for whoever's awesomest, is that Rifts is not Warhammer 40K and the nastiness of the Coalition States is not a necessary evil. Harnessing magic and psionics does not lead inexorably to the death of civilization. Destroying all enemies without quarter is not necessary for survival. A fanatically overzealous state-as-religion and a huge secret police force dedicated to enforcing devotion to it is not required to prevent everyone from sliding into madness and mutation. Wiping out entire species just on the off chance they might have been thinking of going bad one day isn't worth the hassle. Keeping the vast bulk of the population ignorant and only teaching technical staff what they need to know for their own particular job isn't a necessary precaution, because an educated populace isn't automatically going to stumble upon eldritch secrets or become susceptible to Chaos' corrupting influence. And assuming everyone who isn't human either wants to kill you or will happily annihilate their race for your own survival isn't a reasonable assumption to make. Mystical power is innately benign, knowledge is only as dangerous as what you do with it, and nonhuman life runs the range from friendly to lethal just like human being do.

Sure it's a dangerous planet, but the existence of other bastions of civilization that aren't xenocidal fascist police states is living proof that the CS is excessive. And the existence of these other bastions of civilization in environments far harsher than the midwest is proof that the CS is downright mad. Pretty much every other human power in North America is doing just fine without xenocide, and the only significant threat to most of them is the possibility of CS conquest. The Empire of Japan, far from being anything as nasty as real feudal Japan, is a weeaboo paradise of romantic chivalry, and it's doing fine. So is its high tech neighbour the Republic of Japan. Tritonia and the New Navy are both doing fine in hte goddamn ocean, arguably the most hostile environment on Rifts Earth. The New German Republic has spent the last century waging a war that would've crushed the CS a dozen times over, and it hasn't felt the need to get as barbaric as every Rifts fanboy's favourite jackbooted regime.

Rallan wrote:I think the big kicker with the CS, and one that a lot of people seem to overlook in favour of rooting for whoever's awesomest, is that Rifts is not Warhammer 40K and the nastiness of the Coalition States is not a necessary evil. Harnessing magic and psionics does not lead inexorably to the death of civilization. Destroying all enemies without quarter is not necessary for survival. A fanatically overzealous state-as-religion and a huge secret police force dedicated to enforcing devotion to it is not required to prevent everyone from sliding into madness and mutation. Wiping out entire species just on the off chance they might have been thinking of going bad one day isn't worth the hassle. Keeping the vast bulk of the population ignorant and only teaching technical staff what they need to know for their own particular job isn't a necessary precaution, because an educated populace isn't automatically going to stumble upon eldritch secrets or become susceptible to Chaos' corrupting influence. And assuming everyone who isn't human either wants to kill you or will happily annihilate their race for your own survival isn't a reasonable assumption to make. Mystical power is innately benign, knowledge is only as dangerous as what you do with it, and nonhuman life runs the range from friendly to lethal just like human being do.

Sure it's a dangerous planet, but the existence of other bastions of civilization that aren't xenocidal fascist police states is living proof that the CS is excessive. And the existence of these other bastions of civilization in environments far harsher than the midwest is proof that the CS is downright mad. Pretty much every other human power in North America is doing just fine without xenocide, and the only significant threat to most of them is the possibility of CS conquest. The Empire of Japan, far from being anything as nasty as real feudal Japan, is a weeaboo paradise of romantic chivalry, and it's doing fine. So is its high tech neighbour the Republic of Japan. Tritonia and the New Navy are both doing fine in hte goddamn ocean, arguably the most hostile environment on Rifts Earth. The New German Republic has spent the last century waging a war that would've crushed the CS a dozen times over, and it hasn't felt the need to get as barbaric as every Rifts fanboy's favourite jackbooted regime.

Far more eloquently put than I could do on short notice.
I didn't want to pull the dogmatic-space nazi's from dimension X card (C'mon guys, read the books. They are), but yeah CS = 40k imperium of man is pretty apt. Also, yes, there is absolutely NO reason for them to emulate Terra from the 41st imperium with the Rifts world as written.

But hey, I guess some people LIKE ignorant illiterate facist states run by xenocidal megalomanical yutz's with delusions of adequacy.
*shrug* whatever floats their boats I suppose.

P.S.; I read the Siege of Tolkeen...
They killed trees to make that??

Rallan wrote:I think the big kicker with the CS, and one that a lot of people seem to overlook in favour of rooting for whoever's awesomest, is that Rifts is not Warhammer 40K...

Hey, you stole that from my sig!

Kidding aside, well said man.

Rallan wrote:I think the big kicker with the CS, and one that a lot of people seem to overlook in favour of rooting for whoever's awesomest, is that Rifts is not Warhammer 40K and the nastiness of the Coalition States is not a necessary evil.

I disagree simply put...while not completely necessary, it is effective and it works. It's arguable whether it's detrimental to human life in the end or not. That's a philosophical question, and I think those who believe the CS will succeed fall into the line of thinking that the most brutal nations win, and can rewrite history to make them look prettier. Others don't think so, and think symbiosis is the key to survival, but I disagree in only that I don't think humans will ever or would ever feel safe with creatures who are biologically, metaphysically more powerful than them or who can/do view them as a source of entertainment, food or toys.

You mentioned Triax, but Triax isn't that much farther removed from CS. They arn't as brutal, granted, but they are hardly angelic soldiers. They are simply a step above the CS in their treatment of Dbees (while not killing them, they are not treated as equals, have very little rights and are just a step above slave). Save for Triax and atlantis, CS is the third strongest nation on rifts earth and part of that (as stated in the CWC book) is because of their soldiers zealotry and devotion. It even states that should the CS been in place instead of NGR, the gargoyles would have only a slight advantage, despite all the advancements of NGR, and it's size, they'd only do slightly better than the CS against the gargoyles. I think that accounts for a lot, and I think it shows a necessity of doing what they do and how they do it.

If we fall back on the Siege of Tolkien books: the only reason the Coalition isn't dead is because that would absolutely kill the setting in good old Kevin's eyes and somehow by keeping the Coalition States alive it saves it from mediocrity. It's kind of like how the Silent Hill series started off great, with well designed storylines and everything tying into a nice psychological horror game, and then it turned into basically throwing some crazy truck driver into a town of raving lunatics and the truck driver really has no reason for staying in the town except for inept stupidity.

It's that, or the writers weren't aware of all the abilities available to well trained magic users and made the magic users relatively unintelligent in their decision making.

But not much point on beating a broken drum.

Colt47 wrote:
But not much point on beating a broken drum.

-thud thud-
Hmmmm
Yer right....
*tosses drum onto trash heap*

Colt47 wrote:If we fall back on the Siege of Tolkien books: the only reason the Coalition isn't dead is because that would absolutely kill the setting in good old Kevin's eyes and somehow by keeping the Coalition States alive it saves it from mediocrity. It's kind of like how the Silent Hill series started off great, with well designed storylines and everything tying into a nice psychological horror game, and then it turned into basically throwing some crazy truck driver into a town of raving lunatics and the truck driver really has no reason for staying in the town except for inept stupidity.

It's that, or the writers weren't aware of all the abilities available to well trained magic users and made the magic users relatively unintelligent in their decision making.

But not much point on beating a broken drum.

That cuts both ways. Halfway through book one the war should've been settled once and for all by magic users and psychics and monsters assassinating the entire CS high command, Tolkeen's forces getting slaughtered in the field by the huge CS numerical advantage, or both. The only reason that thing lasted six weeks is because Tolkeen was retconned into an impregnable magic fortress city, all the wizards forgot how to cast teleport, and both sides were ran by leaders who learned everything about running a nation from studying saturday morning action cartoon villains.

Gypsy-Dancer wrote:

Talavar wrote:

Rallan wrote:I think the big kicker with the CS, and one that a lot of people seem to overlook in favour of rooting for whoever's awesomest, is that Rifts is not Warhammer 40K...

Hey, you stole that from my sig!

Kidding aside, well said man.

Maybe Prosek played 40k as a kid and decided it fit in with his delusions well enough to try and make it reality.

There's an interesting question. Without conversions...if A rift (the st. Louis Arch for example) were to open (connecting both worlds)...and there was communication...how would they react to each other?

Alejandro wrote:Between the 40k universe and Rifts Earth? Probably Rifts Earth would be overrun by either Orks, Tyranids, or Chaos Demons. If the Imperium found it, they'd just vaporize whatever was on their side that was linked to Rifts Earth which would close the hole. So the answer is probably best summed up as "no matter who finds it, the outcome for Rifts Earth will be very very very bad."

When I said "they" I meant space marines, not just an arbitrary portal opening.

Do you think the two would see each other as kindred spirits, enemies or simply ignore each other.

Alejandro wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Alejandro wrote:Between the 40k universe and Rifts Earth? Probably Rifts Earth would be overrun by either Orks, Tyranids, or Chaos Demons. If the Imperium found it, they'd just vaporize whatever was on their side that was linked to Rifts Earth which would close the hole. So the answer is probably best summed up as "no matter who finds it, the outcome for Rifts Earth will be very very very bad."

When I said "they" I meant space marines, not just an arbitrary portal opening.

Do you think the two would see each other as kindred spirits, enemies or simply ignore each other.

The Space Marines??? Jesus, that's not a good thing to ask. They'd see the whole planet as contaminated by Chaos and recommend Exterminatus. If thye couldn't get that, they'd purge the planet themselves. The Space Marines are far less forgiving than the Imperium at large.

that be alot of dead Space Marines

really does 40k have magic and psionics too, since a number of the space marines run around without helment

Alejandro wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:really does 40k have magic and psionics too, since a number of the space marines run around without helment

40k has tons of magic & psychics.

i don't know 40k magic and psychics seems very weak to me, then again its a role playing game vs a tabletop war game, but lucky for Rifts we got giga-damage weapons, so them all powerful space marines should be taken care of before brunch , i know want you going say, so you dont get want you would have for breakfast or lunch but it's still a good meal.

Yea, the 40k fluff text has whole worlds with armies comparible to the CS or NGR in terms of organization and descriptions of tech, and far larger in terms of numbers, being utterly destroyed by Space Marine forces numbering in the thousands. As in two or three thousand versus hundreds of thousands if not millions.

The viper ramjet machine gun and the smaller ramjet assault rifle, both from Merc Ops, do respectable amounts of MD (2d4x10 & 1d4x10) on bursts, and they're similar to bolters.

Robert wrote:Isn't a space marine chapter only like a thousand dudes?

Seven feet tall bio-engineered from the genes of supernatural beings whose whole life is dedicated to war to the point of it being worshiped dudes armed with technology so advanced that the people in charge of its upkeep know so little about it they end up worshiping their armor as some kind of supernatural being in and of itself...but yea, 1000 dudes.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Robert wrote:Isn't a space marine chapter only like a thousand dudes?

Seven feet tall bio-engineered from the genes of supernatural beings whose whole life is dedicated to war to the point of it being worshiped dudes armed with technology so advanced that the people in charge of its upkeep know so little about it they end up worshiping their armor as some kind of supernatural being in and of itself...but yea, 1000 dudes.

and yet Ciaphas Cain just knocks these guys off left and right

rearnakedchoke wrote:

Alejandro wrote:The easy answer is because every other surrounding power is an even larger collection of inept morons.

So in your game, everyone in the future with incredible high tech machines and reality altering magic are complete idiots.
If you say so.

I occasionally wonder which would shock our ancestors more: the power of modern technology, or our foolish use of said technology. Our cave men ancestors weren't any dumber than we are now. They just didn't have as much to build on.

Coalition uber alles.

csbioborg wrote:

Jesterzzn wrote:

Robert wrote:Isn't a space marine chapter only like a thousand dudes?

Seven feet tall bio-engineered from the genes of supernatural beings whose whole life is dedicated to war to the point of it being worshiped dudes armed with technology so advanced that the people in charge of its upkeep know so little about it they end up worshiping their armor as some kind of supernatural being in and of itself...but yea, 1000 dudes.

and yet Ciaphas Cain just knocks these guys off left and right

Pfft, he's just a poor man's Flashman

Do you support the Coalition?
-yawn-
no...
At least not in its present incarnation.
next stupid question.

Hillbilly_LineWalker wrote:

Darkorinth wrote:I just don't get the "Human last chance for survival" idea. Frankly as fast as they make enemies and extreme as they are they are not a side of humanity I want to be part of. Japan, Lazlo, the NGR, Colorado Baronies and the Indian Reservations are all better hopes for humanity than the CS.

Basicly EVERY human governemt on Rifts Earth is less evil than the CS, they're Nazi's what do expect?

Actually I'd say the humans of the Otomo Shogunate are the most evil - they have made pacts with demons after all just so they can be top dog again in Japan.

There might be a Russian Warlord or two that's likely more vicious than the CS as well.

Glitterboy Pilot wrote:do I support the coalition? well I support the coalition's weaponry. As a player its always exciting to have my character come upon a 4 or 5 man group of cs soldiers. I know that I'm getting a nice rifle or something. Sometimes its a helmet or a chest plate. Other times I get a pistol or a rifle. Just basically whatever is in good condition after we ambush the CS. I mean sometimes the group has to run away. There is a reason the cs is still around. their soldiers are nothing to take lightly. but if you manage to take them out you get some really nice goodies. just gotta pull the dead meat out of the armor and clean it well.

WIN

The bigest Goal of the CS is to keep Humans the Majorty in North America.

From Sourcebook 1 said thers 14 million humans living in the CS (in 102:p.a,if you put that with Humans living outside it,who may get up to 20 million.I think.

Name one Specific D-Bees race that have the same number?