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Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Alright, put it this way:
For you people who support the CS, if you suddenly got transported to the earth of Rifts, you'd be a D-Bee.
Fact.
If you were seen arriving by any CS citizen, let alone a troop, you'd be hunted down, shaved, tattooed with a number/ bar code, put in a cell and interrogated before being killed.
And, even if no-one saw you arrive from a Rift, you'd be dangerously over-educated, with modern conventions working against you. It's easy to say you're ok with the type of government the CS espouses, until you live in such a regime.

I suggest you reread both conversion books because it states different.
Page 40 and page 36 of the original book and page 53 of the the new one.
It's comes down to if you going to take the coalition party line, if you don't , then you are a threat. If you do, then you gain a new friend in a CS monitor and as long as you carry on with the party line, you and your new best friend will live a long life in the CS.

There's also the third paragraph on page 23 of the original, Who is a D-Bee (revised seemed like a waste of money, as it had about half as much stuff in it, so I didn't buy it).
Page 36 backs up my arguement at least as much as it does yours, if not moreso.
So does page 40, actually.
And none of that addresses how willing people would actually be to live under the Prosek regime, coming from a modern non-socialist/ fascist, dactatorial society.
So how about it? You get transported from your living room to the 'Burbs.
What do you think of the CS now?

I think that I wouldn't go telling them that I was from another dimension, and would instead try to blend in.

He did state in his premise that you were seen arriving by the CS.
Either way I don't think trying to blend in would be worth the risk - you are what you eat, considering we are from an alien dimension, it makes sense that with the food we eat we may smell slightly different to the humans of Rifts Earth. That peculiarity may be enough to warrant a mind probe and that mind probe would not only identify you as a D-Bee but your efforts of blending in would prove you to be a D-Bee spy.
It just isn't worth taking that kind of chance when the alternative is living a comfortable life in Lazlo where you don't have to pretend, you don't have to limit your own capabilities and you don't have to feel uneasy any time a Dogboy or Psi-Batallion soldier is near by.

Another thing to consider is that Propaganda is the most powerful tool the CS has at its disposal. The greatest counter to Propaganda is literacy.
Literacy is a greater threat to the Prosek regime than any D-Bee or Magic User.
If Karl is as smart as he gets credit for, the CS will be full of traps to catch the literate.
New signs will pop up in random places, if your eyes linger on them too long, you will be taken in for a probing. You might think you have discipline enough to not be fooled by such things but the odds are you are wrong.
I play poker, I love it. I watch all of the big poker tournaments on television and I can tell you that even the greatest poker players all have uncontrollable tells - the game is about exploiting those tells more-so than trying to hide them. The only way they get away without showing any tells is when they are hiding behind their big hats, long fringes or whatever, wearing sun-glasses and essentially locking up. Trying that same technique in front of a sign designed to trap you into revealing yourself would be about as much of a tell as standing there in front of it, staring at it and mouthing the words written on it.
I don't think anyone could blend in the CS for long - we all make mistakes and I'm sure the Proseks will be making sure there are amply trained people around to exploit our mistakes.

Giant2005 wrote:He did state in his premise that you were seen arriving by the CS.
Either way I don't think trying to blend in would be worth the risk - you are what you eat, considering we are from an alien dimension, it makes sense that with the food we eat we may smell slightly different to the humans of Rifts Earth. That peculiarity may be enough to warrant a mind probe and that mind probe would not only identify you as a D-Bee but your efforts of blending in would prove you to be a D-Bee spy.
It just isn't worth taking that kind of chance when the alternative is living a comfortable life in Lazlo where you don't have to pretend, you don't have to limit your own capabilities and you don't have to feel uneasy any time a Dogboy or Psi-Batallion soldier is near by.

Another thing to consider is that Propaganda is the most powerful tool the CS has at its disposal. The greatest counter to Propaganda is literacy.
Literacy is a greater threat to the Prosek regime than any D-Bee or Magic User.
If Karl is as smart as he gets credit for, the CS will be full of traps to catch the literate.
New signs will pop up in random places, if your eyes linger on them too long, you will be taken in for a probing. You might think you have discipline enough to not be fooled by such things but the odds are you are wrong.
I play poker, I love it. I watch all of the big poker tournaments on television and I can tell you that even the greatest poker players all have uncontrollable tells - the game is about exploiting those tells more-so than trying to hide them. The only way they get away without showing any tells is when they are hiding behind their big hats, long fringes or whatever, wearing sun-glasses and essentially locking up. Trying that same technique in front of a sign designed to trap you into revealing yourself would be about as much of a tell as standing there in front of it, staring at it and mouthing the words written on it.
I don't think anyone could blend in the CS for long - we all make mistakes and I'm sure the Proseks will be making sure there are amply trained people around to exploit our mistakes.

Yup, sooner or later the CS will find out about you. Literacy isn't a counter to the CS propaganda , hell free Quebec use the same propaganda with literacy. It comes if you going to follow the propaganda or not, be a loyal servant of humanity or not.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:He did state in his premise that you were seen arriving by the CS.
Either way I don't think trying to blend in would be worth the risk - you are what you eat, considering we are from an alien dimension, it makes sense that with the food we eat we may smell slightly different to the humans of Rifts Earth. That peculiarity may be enough to warrant a mind probe and that mind probe would not only identify you as a D-Bee but your efforts of blending in would prove you to be a D-Bee spy.
It just isn't worth taking that kind of chance when the alternative is living a comfortable life in Lazlo where you don't have to pretend, you don't have to limit your own capabilities and you don't have to feel uneasy any time a Dogboy or Psi-Batallion soldier is near by.

Another thing to consider is that Propaganda is the most powerful tool the CS has at its disposal. The greatest counter to Propaganda is literacy.
Literacy is a greater threat to the Prosek regime than any D-Bee or Magic User.
If Karl is as smart as he gets credit for, the CS will be full of traps to catch the literate.
New signs will pop up in random places, if your eyes linger on them too long, you will be taken in for a probing. You might think you have discipline enough to not be fooled by such things but the odds are you are wrong.
I play poker, I love it. I watch all of the big poker tournaments on television and I can tell you that even the greatest poker players all have uncontrollable tells - the game is about exploiting those tells more-so than trying to hide them. The only way they get away without showing any tells is when they are hiding behind their big hats, long fringes or whatever, wearing sun-glasses and essentially locking up. Trying that same technique in front of a sign designed to trap you into revealing yourself would be about as much of a tell as standing there in front of it, staring at it and mouthing the words written on it.
I don't think anyone could blend in the CS for long - we all make mistakes and I'm sure the Proseks will be making sure there are amply trained people around to exploit our mistakes.

Yup, sooner or later the CS will find out about you. Literacy isn't a counter to the CS propaganda , hell free Quebec use the same propaganda with literacy. It comes if you going to follow the propaganda or not, be a loyal servant of humanity or not.

Yeah literacy itself isn't the counter. the person smart enough to realize what is going on is the counter, literacy is just that person's tool to spread the word. If people can't read, he is fairly powerless unless he can jack a radio-station or something but I'm not sure how possible that would be.

Ballad of the Coalition Soldier
~Sung to the tune of; Ballad of the Col-rectal surgeon, all appologies to Bowser & Blue.

(Corus)
Hail the Coalition Soldier maladjusted and missaligned,
Tactical blundering cannon-fodder,
Takin' it where the sun don't shine.

Now some abhor the Coalition Soldier for
Utter ineptitude sublime,
But I really do applaud the lads
They're good to the last drop every time.

(corus repeats)

When a lad wants to be a Coalition Soldier
He works hard every day
It takes a lot of combat training
To learn how to get blwon away.

(corus repeats)

They spare no expense in ammunition
They really let the plasma fly,
But flexible armour would come in handy
To bend over and kiss their butts goodbye.

(corus repeats)

Now you laugh at the expense of of the Coalition Soldier
But heed this warning I must say
Just don;t take them all too lightly...
...
A stopped clock is right twice a day.

(corus repeats; wicked accuostic guitar solo)

Thank you thank you... we're here every Thursday night at the Burgandy Room and don't forget to visit the buffet! You're beautiful!

DhAkael wrote:Ballad of the Coalition Soldier
~Sung to the tune of; Ballad of the Col-rectal surgeon, all appologies to Bowser & Blue.

(Corus)
Hail the Coalition Soldier maladjusted and missaligned,
Tactical blundering cannon-fodder,
Takin' it where the sun don't shine.

Now some abhor the Coalition Soldier for
Utter ineptitude sublime,
But I really do applaud the lads
They're good to the last drop every time.

(corus repeats)

When a lad wants to be a Coalition Soldier
He works hard every day
It takes a lot of combat training
To learn how to get blwon away.

(corus repeats)

They spare no expense in ammunition
They really let the plasma fly,
But flexible armour would come in handy
To bend over and kiss their butts goodbye.

(corus repeats)

Now you laugh at the expense of of the Coalition Soldier
But heed this warning I must say
Just don;t take them all too lightly...
...
A stopped clock is right twice a day.

(corus repeats; wicked accuostic guitar solo)

Thank you thank you... we're here every Thursday night at the Burgandy Room and don't forget to visit the buffet! You're beautiful!

Yup don't quit that day job just yet!

I used to hate the CS with a passion when I was younger. Everything they stood for. Would engage them every chance I got. Makes it quite easy as non-human. I held this view for over a decade. Now I'm Pro-CS. I have to thank MMORPGs for that. I hated looking at non-humans & playing them. The rule change for dodging energy weapons has made the choice even easier.

Am I a racist? Indeed I am. I hate roaches, squirrels, pigeons & other pest. I wouldn't kill every D-Bee on sight as long they're trying to leave this planet. Thankfully they only exist ingame. I have no love for Prosek but I get it.Don't want to be in that position but if I am D-Bees/Magic Users beware. Maybe not cactus d-bees, they appear to be almost harmless but once NA is cleared of the other vermin they HAVE to go.

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

The only 'big picture' that the CS understands is conquest and a lust for power and domination, which means they're no different than any conquering demon horde (complete with their own monstrous 'golems' sent to kill without remorse). They murdered an entire city state because it set the lie to their claims and showed humans and non-humans getting along just fine and prospering for everyone's betterment. Just like many other mixed species city states and countries around the world manage to do.

Really the only difference between Prosek and co. and the Splugorth ruling Atlantis and other conquering demons/monsters is species, nothing else. They have the same goals and use the same tactics in order to accomplish them and the LAST thing anyone should ever be doing is showing support for the actions and mindset of the CS. In fact it shouldn't even get onto a list of things to show support for no matter how full the list is and how far down the bottom might be.

VaderLike wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

The only 'big picture' that the CS understands is conquest and a lust for power and domination, which means they're no different than any conquering demon horde (complete with their own monstrous 'golems' sent to kill without remorse). They murdered an entire city state because it set the lie to their claims and showed humans and non-humans getting along just fine and prospering for everyone's betterment. Just like many other mixed species city states and countries around the world manage to do.

Really the only difference between Prosek and co. and the Splugorth ruling Atlantis and other conquering demons/monsters is species, nothing else. They have the same goals and use the same tactics in order to accomplish them and the LAST thing anyone should ever be doing is showing support for the actions and mindset of the CS. In fact it shouldn't even get onto a list of things to show support for no matter how full the list is and how far down the bottom might be.

I suspect you would have a much greater opportunity to pursue happiness under the dominion of Emperor Prosek and the Coalition than in the slave-collar of a Splugorth.

Given I'm literate and outspoken I daresay no I'd have the same opportunity for happiness as a slave of the CS as I would for the Splugorth, because in the end the citizens of the CS are slaves and if they question how things are can expect some indoctrination programs or indefinite imprisonment if they continue to display independent thought.

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

A loss of culture only causes suffering if you actively resist it.
I imagine there are a lot of races in the real world that hate the fact their culture has been all but destroyed by foreign invaders but there are others that have accepted the change and been assimilated successfully. Those that fall in the latter camp are happy with their lives, those in the former are not.
All the CS is doing is pushing mankind into the former camp.

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

I agree with you on that.
People seem to forget the governments of the past were just as evil the coalition states, but then people try to point to the nicer human kingdoms which would be just as corrupt and nasty as the coalition states with the same goals of conquer and removing any threats.

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.



Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

Ah, this old chestnut again. Let's go through the points:

1. The CS is not the best hope for humanity, even requiring a human nation to be largely homogeneous - the NGR is, followed by the Japanese Republic. Both are still democracies as opposed to the CS' dictatorship & oligarchy; both have highly educated citizenry as opposed to the CS' ignorant and controlled masses; and neither are rabidly xenophobic, just wary or unfortunately pragmatic.

2. City-States and nations that are open/friendly with d-bees and magic are not necessarily ruled by inhuman forces - Lazlo, New Lazlo, the City of Brass, Kingsdale, Arzno, formerly Tolkeen - all are/were ruled by humans. Lazlo & New Lazlo are both democracies, so it makes sense that some of their elected officials would be non-human - so is their electorate. That doesn't change that executive power resides with a human in all of those instances, just within North America, for good and bad. Most of these have existed longer than a generation within the setting, so clearly, humanity isn't ceasing to exist in any meaningful way in those places.

3. The Coalition doesn't understand the big picture. They woefully underestimate the big picture, and have no hope of dealing with it. If the CS were to take their ideology to its logical conclusion, and somehow eliminate every D-bee, supernatural being and creature of magic from the earth, they'd still never be safe, or their task finished. The CS has no ability to control or manage ley lines, nexuses and the rifts they bring, so supernatural threats - and lots of harmless d-bees - are always going to be showing up.

But beyond that is the array of threats that the CS' ideology leaves them woefully prepared to fight. The Xiticix in their hundreds of millions/billions are on the CS' doorstep; the Vampire Kingdoms not much farther away. Defeating the Xiticix is doable, but would take a ton of CS resources, and if any queens escape they'd have to do it all over again in a few years. The CS is perhaps the worst major state at fighting vampires. With the limited number of psychics available to the CS, and no magic/techno-wizardry, the vampires could gut their armed forces from within. Fighting either would be incredibly taxing for the CS, but they'll have to fight both alone. That's because they've also aligned themselves against every other city-state and group in North America. Any number of city-states could work with a more moderate CS, but they're all the enemy, because the CS leadership is pathological.

And that's without even getting into un-winnable conflicts with Atlantis or the Naruni (to paraphrase the good people at Tootsie Roll: how many metzla/anti-matter missiles does it take to get to the centre of Chi-Town? One, two, thr-*crunch*).

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I agree with you on that.
People seem to forget the governments of the past were just as evil the coalition states, but then people try to point to the nicer human kingdoms which would be just as corrupt and nasty as the coalition states with the same goals of conquer and removing any threats.

No, only a couple of the governments of the past were just as evil as the Coalition; history does not remember them kindly. I don't really know what you mean by saying the nicer human kingdoms "would be" just as bad as the CS: we know they're not. This is a game/story - narration is omniscient. The books tell us they're not like that. That means they're not like that.

No, only a couple of the governments of the past were just as evil as the Coalition; history does not remember them kindly. I don't really know what you mean by saying the nicer human kingdoms "would be" just as bad as the CS: we know they're not. This is a game/story - narration is omniscient. The books tell us they're not like that. That means they're not like that.

History is written by the winner, and the winner can always make themselves look like the good guys.

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

This entirely off topic but...........
Hey vaderlike you sent me a PM but you have email ,pm, and all other forms of contact turned off dude hahahahha

VaderLike wrote:

Talavar wrote:

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.



Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

Ah, this old chestnut again. Let's go through the points:

1. The CS is not the best hope for humanity, even requiring a human nation to be largely homogeneous - the NGR is, followed by the Japanese Republic. Both are still democracies as opposed to the CS' dictatorship & oligarchy; both have highly educated citizenry as opposed to the CS' ignorant and controlled masses; and neither are rabidly xenophobic, just wary or unfortunately pragmatic.

2. City-States and nations that are open/friendly with d-bees and magic are not necessarily ruled by inhuman forces - Lazlo, New Lazlo, the City of Brass, Kingsdale, Arzno, formerly Tolkeen - all are/were ruled by humans. Lazlo & New Lazlo are both democracies, so it makes sense that some of their elected officials would be non-human - so is their electorate. That doesn't change that executive power resides with a human in all of those instances, just within North America, for good and bad. Most of these have existed longer than a generation within the setting, so clearly, humanity isn't ceasing to exist in any meaningful way in those places.

3. The Coalition doesn't understand the big picture. They woefully underestimate the big picture, and have no hope of dealing with it. If the CS were to take their ideology to its logical conclusion, and somehow eliminate every D-bee, supernatural being and creature of magic from the earth, they'd still never be safe, or their task finished. The CS has no ability to control or manage ley lines, nexuses and the rifts they bring, so supernatural threats - and lots of harmless d-bees - are always going to be showing up.

But beyond that is the array of threats that the CS' ideology leaves them woefully prepared to fight. The Xiticix in their hundreds of millions/billions are on the CS' doorstep; the Vampire Kingdoms not much farther away. Defeating the Xiticix is doable, but would take a ton of CS resources, and if any queens escape they'd have to do it all over again in a few years. The CS is perhaps the worst major state at fighting vampires. With the limited number of psychics available to the CS, and no magic/techno-wizardry, the vampires could gut their armed forces from within. Fighting either would be incredibly taxing for the CS, but they'll have to fight both alone. That's because they've also aligned themselves against every other city-state and group in North America. Any number of city-states could work with a more moderate CS, but they're all the enemy, because the CS leadership is pathological.

I agree with one of your more general points but you draw a different conclusion than I do from it.
The Coalition might not be the ultimate answer, at least not yet, because the necessity to close and control the RIFTS will inevitably become obvious to anyone fighting that fight. However, just because it isn't now the solution, doesn't make it the problem. The Coalition is more right than others on the question of `to be or not to be`

My one Coalition character that's lived long enough to become something understands the Coalition is fighting the long, slow defeat, because I think that's the most logical position for him to take, but that wouldn't stop him from fighting it anyway.

The possible futility of their fight doesn't tarnish the righteousness of it.

True, it's their villainous intent and the basic evil foundation of why they fight that deprives them of any righteousness.

Nightmask wrote:

VaderLike wrote:

Talavar wrote:

VaderLike wrote:Erin Tarn's scribblings come off as deranged in my opinion. The entire world is on fire, being lorded over by demons and dragons, vile alien creatures, terrifying predators, and she's lecturing the Coalition on human-supremacy or pan-humanist ideologies.

I once was in a campaign where my objective was to assassinate her but I failed

If all humanity were to just adopt Tarn's position, it would cease to exist on any significant level, or be represented in any political body, within a generation. Gone. Wiped out.

I could understand the argument if everyone else were in their own dimensions and on their own worlds, and civilized, but they're here, on our home, basically taking it over and significantly lowering our place on the food chain.

I can see, under the circumstances, befriending non-human individuals from the RIFTs, but to lay a welcome mat down over the whole planet for any and everyone to come and turn it into their inter-dimensional battlefield is crazy.

The Coalition understands the big picture.

Erin Tarn's criticisms of it under the circumstances are so crazy and beyond comprehension, I have to assume she's under the sway of a demonic puppet-master

Ah, this old chestnut again. Let's go through the points:

1. The CS is not the best hope for humanity, even requiring a human nation to be largely homogeneous - the NGR is, followed by the Japanese Republic. Both are still democracies as opposed to the CS' dictatorship & oligarchy; both have highly educated citizenry as opposed to the CS' ignorant and controlled masses; and neither are rabidly xenophobic, just wary or unfortunately pragmatic.

2. City-States and nations that are open/friendly with d-bees and magic are not necessarily ruled by inhuman forces - Lazlo, New Lazlo, the City of Brass, Kingsdale, Arzno, formerly Tolkeen - all are/were ruled by humans. Lazlo & New Lazlo are both democracies, so it makes sense that some of their elected officials would be non-human - so is their electorate. That doesn't change that executive power resides with a human in all of those instances, just within North America, for good and bad. Most of these have existed longer than a generation within the setting, so clearly, humanity isn't ceasing to exist in any meaningful way in those places.

3. The Coalition doesn't understand the big picture. They woefully underestimate the big picture, and have no hope of dealing with it. If the CS were to take their ideology to its logical conclusion, and somehow eliminate every D-bee, supernatural being and creature of magic from the earth, they'd still never be safe, or their task finished. The CS has no ability to control or manage ley lines, nexuses and the rifts they bring, so supernatural threats - and lots of harmless d-bees - are always going to be showing up.

But beyond that is the array of threats that the CS' ideology leaves them woefully prepared to fight. The Xiticix in their hundreds of millions/billions are on the CS' doorstep; the Vampire Kingdoms not much farther away. Defeating the Xiticix is doable, but would take a ton of CS resources, and if any queens escape they'd have to do it all over again in a few years. The CS is perhaps the worst major state at fighting vampires. With the limited number of psychics available to the CS, and no magic/techno-wizardry, the vampires could gut their armed forces from within. Fighting either would be incredibly taxing for the CS, but they'll have to fight both alone. That's because they've also aligned themselves against every other city-state and group in North America. Any number of city-states could work with a more moderate CS, but they're all the enemy, because the CS leadership is pathological.

I agree with one of your more general points but you draw a different conclusion than I do from it.
The Coalition might not be the ultimate answer, at least not yet, because the necessity to close and control the RIFTS will inevitably become obvious to anyone fighting that fight. However, just because it isn't now the solution, doesn't make it the problem. The Coalition is more right than others on the question of `to be or not to be`

My one Coalition character that's lived long enough to become something understands the Coalition is fighting the long, slow defeat, because I think that's the most logical position for him to take, but that wouldn't stop him from fighting it anyway.

The possible futility of their fight doesn't tarnish the righteousness of it.

True, it's their villainous intent and the basic evil foundation of why they fight that deprives them of any righteousness.

Ha, so true! The Coalition may not be able to manage or control the rifts, but at least they're trying to kill the people who can!

At least they do look sharp when they are killing the scum of the earth d-bees and evil self serving mages.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:At least they do look sharp when they are killing the scum of the earth d-bees and evil self serving mages.

The old style armour had a certain something, but I'm not big fan of the new look.

My vote is that this will turn into a circular debate between those who like the CS and those that don't. It will probably revolve around personal interpretations of what is or is not 'morality' and how much infromation is 'in game' vs 'out game'.................

eliakon wrote:My vote is that this will turn into a circular debate between those who like the CS and those that don't. It will probably revolve around personal interpretations of what is or is not 'morality' and how much infromation is 'in game' vs 'out game'.................

Can't really have a debate when you can point to the various books and where to find it where the game information refers to the evil nature of the CS and hear 'no the books don't say that and that heading referring to how they're evil doesn't exist', which would be like saying a Glitter Boy's Boom Cannon doesn't fire rail gun rounds but fires marshmallows and candy corn instead.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:My vote is that this will turn into a circular debate between those who like the CS and those that don't. It will probably revolve around personal interpretations of what is or is not 'morality' and how much infromation is 'in game' vs 'out game'.................

Can't really have a debate when you can point to the various books and where to find it where the game information refers to the evil nature of the CS and hear 'no the books don't say that and that heading referring to how they're evil doesn't exist', which would be like saying a Glitter Boy's Boom Cannon doesn't fire rail gun rounds but fires marshmallows and candy corn instead.

And it begins.....

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:My vote is that this will turn into a circular debate between those who like the CS and those that don't. It will probably revolve around personal interpretations of what is or is not 'morality' and how much infromation is 'in game' vs 'out game'.................

Can't really have a debate when you can point to the various books and where to find it where the game information refers to the evil nature of the CS and hear 'no the books don't say that and that heading referring to how they're evil doesn't exist', which would be like saying a Glitter Boy's Boom Cannon doesn't fire rail gun rounds but fires marshmallows and candy corn instead.

And it begins.....

Yup as always
Even if canon says most of the coalition officers now are following Jericho's mindset , you still get certain people screaming how every coalition officer still wipes out villages. It seems people like cherry picking stuff, and bypassing the rest. But we will never have any real debates because some act like childern and block certain people because of thier view points they don't like!

Usually, I end up playing D-bees. I've got an immense love for the sheer diversity provided with the collection of magical, psionic, supernatural or otherworldly characters. Typically, I find my characters' either despise the CS or recognize the good for humankind/North America which they provide but are still wary of any member/location.

I have played CS-loyal characters for a pleasantly challenging change of pace, I've even played D-Bees/Magic/Psionic characters that support the Coalition! An example of such, and one of my favorite characters, an Auto-G (see the D-Bees of North America World Book 30) called Mal.

A bit of background. For those unaware, an Auto-G is considered a D-Bee, regardless of it's natural human physiology and lack of magic/psionics, because of it's only natural ability (which costs ISP) to perfectly genetically replicate a species or individual (short of bionics, cybernetics, scars, tattoos, etc.) It is also secretly regarded as the absolute number one enemy to the Coalition States. However, Auto-G's desperately and to a fault believe themselves to be completely human.

Now, Mal completely supports the cause of the CS and had managed to infiltrate their ranks (most CS outfits/locations are not equipped with the proper sensors to detect an Auto-G because of their innate genetic ability) and once found, begged enlistment for real. He was a member of a Special Ops team, which eventually became aware of his one ability, and continued to fight for the CS, even against other D-Bees, due to his blind belief that he was human and his lust to be recognized as such.

Of course, D-Bees are only employed by the Coalition so long as they can be useful, but playing such a naive and unique character with such misguided goals was too much fun to pass up.

So, regardless of my personal feelings for the CS, I always play true to my characters (as much as a player can, anyway), but I find myself wary of their wrongs, while acknowledging their beneficial deeds. Besides, without the CS I wouldn't have my favorite R.C.C.: the Dog Boy.