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It hasn't, but, especially in the case of bio-manipulate, it makes sense.

What the hell you doing trying to make this DnD?

Make it a skill.

Counter-Psionic Manipulation:
The psychic is has studied how to interfere with or negate other psychic powers by intervening on behalf of the affected person/target. The psychic attempting to counter the power must possess the same power as the attacking/manipulating psychic, and must use this power on the affected target. Once both psychics are affecting the same target, they can vie for control.
For example, one psychic uses Bio-Manipulation to paralyze the target. Another psychic activates his own Bio-Manipulation power and focuses it on the target, using his Counter-Psionic Manipulation skill to negate the paralysis that the first psychic inflicted.
The target gets to make an immediate savings throw versus the original attacker's psionic power in order to negate the effects (whether or not a save is normally allowed).
Furthermore, if the interfering psychic makes a successful skill check, the target can make his new save using whichever savings throw bonuses are higher, his own or those of the interfering psychic.
A psychic cannot use this skill to shrug off effects targeting the psychic himself.


Probably needs a better name, but you get the gist.

An advanced version of the same skill might allow you to not only negate the ability, but to throw it back at the attacker.

Personally, I would be against adding a "negate psionics" ability/skill.

Characters get a saving throw and if they fail that, then it's tough luck. One of the strengths of psychics is their anonymity - the Mind Melter silently crushing the life out of his victim from the other side of a crowded bar; the glib merchant who has an uncanny knack of second guessing his haggling opponent etc etc etc.

If your comrade is being bio-manipulated, you need to find the source quickly - makes for a more exciting game than just, "Oh I roll to counter it, yay, let's move on."

sHaka wrote:Personally, I would be against adding a "negate psionics" ability/skill.

Characters get a saving throw and if they fail that, then it's tough luck. One of the strengths of psychics is their anonymity - the Mind Melter silently crushing the life out of his victim from the other side of a crowded bar; the glib merchant who has an uncanny knack of second guessing his haggling opponent etc etc etc.

If your comrade is being bio-manipulated, you need to find the source quickly - makes for a more exciting game than just, "Oh I roll to counter it, yay, let's move on."

Excellent point.

You could do something as such:

Psionic Resurgence: When an allie is under the effect of a psionic ability, if another psychic who knows the source and has the same ability can make a mental endurance check on the original psychic to allow the victim a chance to break free. In game terms, If a villain psychic (bob) has someone under bio-manipulate (joe), then heroic psychic (jen) can attempt a PR as long as bob is within bio-manipulation range and jen knows it is bob who's bio-manipulating joe. (this struggle happens in the villains head, not the victims). When this happens, both psychics roll a D20+ME. If Jen wins, then joe can make another attempt at a saving throw. If bob wins, then joe stays bio-manipulated.

If you make it a skill, as KC mentioned, then perhaps a successful skill roll garners a bonus to save vs. psionics with either their own or the victims, whichever is higher, or perhaps just gives them a flat bonus of +2 or perhaps a bonus based on level of the psychic who's using PR, such as +1 for levels 1-4, +2 for lvls 5-8....ect

Easily to refine this.

sHaka wrote:Personally, I would be against adding a "negate psionics" ability/skill.

Characters get a saving throw and if they fail that, then it's tough luck. One of the strengths of psychics is their anonymity - the Mind Melter silently crushing the life out of his victim from the other side of a crowded bar; the glib merchant who has an uncanny knack of second guessing his haggling opponent etc etc etc.

If your comrade is being bio-manipulated, you need to find the source quickly - makes for a more exciting game than just, "Oh I roll to counter it, yay, let's move on."

Mentally battling an unknown psychic inside the mind of a comrade isn't exciting?
I think I disagree.

But to each their own.

It occurs to me that the interfering psychic should have a chance to lose big if he interferes.
Like if the target fails his save, then the psychic has to make his own save (at whichever bonuses are higher) or also be affected by whatever power is being used.
So by trying to save his buddy from bio-manipulation, he might fall under the effects himself.

Psionics are barely worth anything as it is why do you want to nerf one of their about three total useful abilities (for outright combat)

It's been a long time since I dealt with Psionics, and definitely not within RUE. But wouldn't Group Mind Block stop it?

KainKrael wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Psionics are barely worth anything as it is why do you want to nerf one of their about three total useful abilities (for outright combat)

I don't see it as a nerf. If anything it's adding another wrinkle to what they can do. I think it's good for tactics and adds more flavor to the game. Obviously only other powerful psychics would be able to counter such a thing. It wouldn't be much different than a magic-user being able to dispel magic barriers or negate magic.

Then you start devolving into rappidly pointless negation of negation abilities.

In Nightbane Lightbringers have the ability to Nullify Magic, but they have to spend more P.P.E. than the original cost of the spell. If you want make house rules than you might want to model it after this. Good luck.

KainKrael wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

KainKrael wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Psionics are barely worth anything as it is why do you want to nerf one of their about three total useful abilities (for outright combat)

I don't see it as a nerf. If anything it's adding another wrinkle to what they can do. I think it's good for tactics and adds more flavor to the game. Obviously only other powerful psychics would be able to counter such a thing. It wouldn't be much different than a magic-user being able to dispel magic barriers or negate magic.

Then you start devolving into rappidly pointless negation of negation abilities.

Meh...I don't see it playing out so blandly as Mind Melter A. spams Bio-Manipulate then Mind Melter B. spams Reverse Bio-Manipulate. With that way of thinking at least it adds another option other than Mind Melter A. spams Bio-Manipulate against Mind Melter B. and his party,and vice versa.

The bolded was what I was refering to. Then you'll say a psychic can have a power that will get past reverse bio manipulate. Then someone else will have a power that can get past reverse reverse bio manipulate. Suddenly you have a strong of powers all around one trying to counter each-other.

KainKrael wrote:Thinking of writing up some house rules so that certain psi powers can be countered by other psi powers. Like bio-manipulate countering bio-manipulate. Say like you have a Mind Melter and a member of your party has come under the effects of bio-manipulation and you would like to use your bio-manipulate to try and counter it.

Has anything like this been written up yet? If so please point me to it. Or give me some ideas on how you would do it. Thanks

Some powers already seem to be designed to counter other powers already either directly or indirectly (especially with a loose interpretation). Using the Bio-manip example: couldn't the psyhic target just turn on another appropriate power they have to cancel the effect of bio-manipulation? Powers such as:

-Deaden Pain could cut the duration short, if the Psyhic can use it on themselves and takes the time for the starting trance. Futher effort to use Bio-manipulation would seem to be canceled due to the long duration of the power. Weather it would work on all the Bio-manip. effects is debatable, but all of them work by causing physical tramua to the body, which could be seen as a type of pain regardless of the actual effect being sought with Bio-manip. No perceptable pain = no Bio-manip effect.

-Bio-Regeneration (or another healing power for others) might be another approach depending if the GM deciedes that the power cancels out Bio-manip. effects for Bio-manip's current duration, requiring Bio-manip to be used again instead of extending the duration (which is cheaper in ISP). After all it is supposed to heal all wounds and such, and Bio-manip inflicts tramua to the body.

-Mind Block does not protect from Bio-manip outright (some powers are mentioned by name as being blocked outright), but it does offer an additional bonus to save from other psychic powers while in effect.

-Summon Inner strength the fluff text mentions warding off pain for the duration, as Bio-manip is essentially causing pain.

These are not Super-Psionics, but they can be used to counter the Super Psionic Power of Bio-Manipulation.

RUE Full Conversion Borg is immune to Bio-Manipulation (fyi), one good reason to be one?

Pretty hard for it to work on a Nullifier too...

Mind Block?

Jefffar wrote:Mind Block?

Debatable. Bio-Manipulation isn't strictly a mental attack... an attack by the mind, but not to the mind. It attacks the meat.

Jefffar wrote:Mind Block?

Mind Block lists specific powers that it blocks outright from having an affect on the psychic while active. However, while active the power does provide a bonus to save vs psionics, so it increases one's chance of making the saving throw.

Lobotaru wrote:The bio-manipulation power is kind of special. It stands to reason that if you can cause those effects that you can reverse them with that power, since you are "manipulating" the person's biology. I always thought that it would make sense if you could relieve pain with bio-manipulation as well as cause it.

Bio-manip though is limited to targeting others, so a psionic user could do something to negate the effect for a comrade, but not themselves. The psionic would need to use another power to negate the effects if Bio-manip was targeting them.

Psionics aren't that useless in Rifts. It's just that most of the Psionic abilities are for non-combat purposes.

Never say "if the writers wanted it to do x they would have stated it" especially with Palladium. Alot of what they have done is cut and paste stuff from older sources and cleaned it up a bit, even then they fail alot of times to make it look good in the system. (Granted this is based off of before RUE as I don't have it)

On Topic: Mind Block would not prevent Bio-Manipulation though because it affects the Nervous system not the mind but with Mind Block in place you would get the +1 save from it because it is a psychic assault/mental attack. That is just my thoughts on it.

Also there is no point to create a counter power to it as has been pointed out previously there are a number of ways around it with other psychic powers and there are a number of spells that would assist in getting around it as well.

Personally, given my rather liberal interpretation of Bio-Manipulation, I would allow it to be used directly to combat psychic paralysis... basically, it can undo anything that can be done by it. If two psychics got into a war, each undoing what the other did, I'd probably borrow the Chi combat rules from N&SS and just have them psyche it out.

ak-73 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The bolded was what I was refering to. Then you'll say a psychic can have a power that will get past reverse bio manipulate. Then someone else will have a power that can get past reverse reverse bio manipulate. Suddenly you have a strong of powers all around one trying to counter each-other.

Well, to be honest - that's life. Someone develops a big cannon and someone else will try to develop a tank that can withstand its fire, then someone will try to modify the cannon so it can penetrate the tank's armor and so on.

For technologies, yes, Psionics and magic tend to work differently. See, for a guy using a gun, the gun never gets any better, the bullets never get any more effective. You have to invent either a better gun or a better bullet. Same with armor. Sure, you can tweak things a bit to make it more accurate, or layer on a few extra layers of armor for a bit extra durability, but for the most part the basic chassis defines the entire scope of that particular device.

Magic and psionics naturally improve with the user. A magic user dosn't HAVE to make a new armor spell because the one he has will improve itself over time. a guy with a lighting spell dosn't have to make a new lightning spell because it gets better over time. Psioncis tend to follow a similar pattern. the effort to improve themselves focuses into the powers they already have to make them better without inventing new stuff. Only a very few people have the true inventive spark to try to re-invent the wheel. The vast majority will be more than content to improve on what they already know.

Normally such developments take a lot of time though, you don't counter established practices easily. Such a nullification power would have to be considered in the default Rifts world the mental equivalent of a "prototype". With all the limitations that come with that.

Like what? As I stated above, a very rare occurance in Technology is far, far rarer in magic, and considering most psioncis have NO ability to even attmept to try or invent new psionics, what your talking about is almost unheard of in all of history. This wouldn't be rare, it would be a legendary feat.

But if the original poster was to simply reinterpret the Rifts Psionics to allow for for easy Nullification, that's a possible interpretation but with ramifications.

Like ignoring the rules and throwing balance out of whack.

I don't get though why you said the following: "Psionics are barely worth anything as it is...". Is that really how you see Psionics? Evil Eye? Telekinesis? Mind Bolt against unarmored opponents? Psi-Sword? Telekinetic Force Field? Not to mention the ability to potentially use hi-tech alien weapons via Telemechanics easily? Using Hypnotic Suggestion to "draft" mercenaries/adventurers for pre-planned combat?

What you say may hold true for minor/major psionics but it does not hold true for a Mind Melter, I think.

I said there were three of them that are especially useful for psionics: Bio-Manipulation, Super Telekencie and Hypnotic suggestion

the MD attacks are great, but really nothing special other than they're always with you. but for normal combat, no one really cares if your using a psi-sword or a lightblade. and a lightblade is much cheeper to use. Mind Bolt is a great insta-kill on unarmored opponents. but if they're unarmoed, why do you want to kill them? And can't you just use SDC weapons for that?

I should clarify that Psionics brings very little unique to the table is what I mean. Sure, they have defensive abillities and offensive abilities, but at the end of the day that's not what makes them special. Mind Bolt, Laser Pistol, Psi-Sword, Light Blade, TK Acceleration Attack, Ramjet Rounds. A psychic can use any of those and it makes no real difference, and will typically have them avaible.

the real Flavor of a class isn't the inevitable overlap, it's what they can do and no one else can, or at least not without a great deal more effort.

Bio-manipulation is great because it's the fastest and easiest way to cripple someone in a game. one low roll on a save throw and you can take out game that's much, MUCH bigger than you.

Super Telekinsis: The damage is great if there are heavy things around you, and if you press the GM for the scenery there almost always is something, and you can use multiple things at once. Really, at high levels this is great because you can manipulate 7 guns at once and fire them all at once.

Hypnotic Suggestion: Really the only thing like it, get people to do stuff they would never do normally.

Other than that, there's nothing that really sets psychics apart.

I think the telemechanics powers add something other classes can't do, TM paralysis & operation anyway.

Talavar wrote:I think the telemechanics powers add something other classes can't do, TM paralysis & operation anyway.

You'd think so, but considering that they have never once been used in any game i've played in or ran, I can't really judge.

Nekira, are you aware you can spellcheck your posts?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Talavar wrote:I think the telemechanics powers add something other classes can't do, TM paralysis & operation anyway.

You'd think so, but considering that they have never once been used in any game i've played in or ran, I can't really judge.

I've seen them used in the games we've played (tech heavy campaigns) and they can be very useful. Telemechanics is very useful (used that about every game session), and TM paralysis is more impressive than negate mechanics.

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Talavar wrote:I think the telemechanics powers add something other classes can't do, TM paralysis & operation anyway.

You'd think so, but considering that they have never once been used in any game i've played in or ran, I can't really judge.

I've seen them used in the games we've played (tech heavy campaigns) and they can be very useful. Telemechanics is very useful (used that about every game session), and TM paralysis is more impressive than negate mechanics.

Well, it's still not really unique. a nightbanes Dues Ex Machina talent lets them take over all machines in a radius automatically.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Talavar wrote:I think the telemechanics powers add something other classes can't do, TM paralysis & operation anyway.

You'd think so, but considering that they have never once been used in any game i've played in or ran, I can't really judge.

I've seen them used in the games we've played (tech heavy campaigns) and they can be very useful. Telemechanics is very useful (used that about every game session), and TM paralysis is more impressive than negate mechanics.

Well, it's still not really unique. a nightbanes Dues Ex Machina talent lets them take over all machines in a radius automatically.

Much better than the psionic, I agree. I'm just saying those can be pretty useful.

ak-73 wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:You'd think so, but considering that they have never once been used in any game i've played in or ran, I can't really judge.

I've seen them used in the games we've played (tech heavy campaigns) and they can be very useful. Telemechanics is very useful (used that about every game session), and TM paralysis is more impressive than negate mechanics.

Well, it's still not really unique. a nightbanes Dues Ex Machina talent lets them take over all machines in a radius automatically.

Much better than the psionic, I agree. I'm just saying those can be pretty useful.

Do you really need an OCC with which you can beat on your chest and say: "I can do this which nobody else on the whole Megaverse can"? Seriously, I don't need it. The Megaverse is large and somewhere out there there is bound to be someone quicker on the draw, if you catch my drift.

My thoughts revolve more around the right power level and the believability and how it all fits into my interpretation of the Rifts world than about how unique an OCC might be overall.

Alex

I think your taking what I said a bit too littearlly. Obviously there's going to be tons others that can do it because you arn't the only OCC that has it. I'm talking about Psionics in general, not any specific character. Magic has a whole slew of things it can do that simply isn't possible otherwise.

Psionics has...three things, basically.

I'm not talking individual PC chest thumping, i'm talking psionics in genearl.

There already exists a counter to Bio Manipulation. Its the Mind Bleeder's Impervious to Bio Manipulation Power.

As to creating a counter is unnecessary as there a number of ways to counter powers. Full Environmental Body armor is protection from a number of psionic powers. As is Robots and PA. Not sure if the Full Enviro Armor protects against Bio Manip specifically, but by creating a counter to one power you open the door to your players wanting to create counters to everything.

ak-73 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

ak-73 wrote:
Do you really need an OCC with which you can beat on your chest and say: "I can do this which nobody else on the whole Megaverse can"? Seriously, I don't need it. The Megaverse is large and somewhere out there there is bound to be someone quicker on the draw, if you catch my drift.

My thoughts revolve more around the right power level and the believability and how it all fits into my interpretation of the Rifts world than about how unique an OCC might be overall.

Alex

I think your taking what I said a bit too littearlly. Obviously there's going to be tons others that can do it because you arn't the only OCC that has it. I'm talking about Psionics in general, not any specific character. Magic has a whole slew of things it can do that simply isn't possible otherwise.

Psionics has...three things, basically.

I'm not talking individual PC chest thumping, i'm talking psionics in genearl.

Okay, fair enough. However what about my point that what really matters is what a specific PC brings to a specific party? Isn't that what really matters? Does it matter whether in theory a mage could bring the same thing to the party than the Psionic in question? I don't think so.

Alex

Again, this isn't about how individuals would use it, it's from how psionics are laid out compared to magic. What you need to consider to play a game has surprisngly little relevance to what you need to consider to make a game's mechancis balanced.

ak-73 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Again, this isn't about how individuals would use it, it's from how psionics are laid out compared to magic. What you need to consider to play a game has surprisngly little relevance to what you need to consider to make a game's mechancis balanced.

Which begs the question why you are here considering what makes the game's mechanics balanced to begin with. Again, from a GM's perspective, one of the main things is that every PC is able to contribute something to the party, something that makes a PC unique to the party at hand. If a game like Rifts provides a set of character classes, the Psionics, which all have the potential to add something to a party, then this is basically good enough for a rpg system.

If you are referring to Psionic being too similar to Magic, this does not hold true for the original Rifts Mainbook, I believe. Things like all the lightblades and so on got added later on because Palladium needs to constantly put out stuff to stay in business.

The differences between magic and psionics exist because they are referring to two different concepts in fictional literature which both have different traditional depictations, I believe.

Alex

Also keep in mind that while Magic Spells can do do what Psionics can and then some, spells take time, psionic powers for the most part are instant. That alone sets them apart greatly from magic.

jaymz wrote:Also keep in mind that while Magic Spells can do do what Psionics can and then some, spells take time, psionic powers for the most part are instant. That alone sets them apart greatly from magic.

The question should be how different is different enough?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Psionics are barely worth anything as it is why do you want to nerf one of their about three total useful abilities (for outright combat)

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