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Would YOU allow a Player Character to Teleport out of a Magic Net? Say if they had an item that would teleport them and did not have to cast the spell or that they were a demon and could D-Port as a natural ability?

Feel free to post why or why not.

The spell's description explicitly says that it totally impedes movement (Rifts: Book of Magic, page 102).

Therefore, if you're not a race/species who can psionically invoke your Teleportation Ability, I don't see why this is or should be such a difficult question to answer.


Now, if you were asking a question about Carpet of Adhesion, maybe you might have a difficult question there....

cornholioprime wrote:The spell's description explicitly says that it totally impedes movement (Rifts: Book of Magic, page 102).

Therefore, if you're not a race/species who can psionically invoke your Teleportation Ability, I don't see why this is or should be such a difficult question to answer.


Now, if you were asking a question about Carpet of Adhesion, maybe you might have a difficult question there....

So then assuming the PC has his hand on thier weapon and said weapon can teleport wielder then or the race can teleport then they CAN infact teleport out of the net as if it were just a physically restricting net and has no magically restrictive qualities.

If you don't have to move to teleport then you can teleport.

Dr. Doom III wrote:If you don't have to move to teleport then you can teleport.

Less words than what I said but spot on.

Natural teleport abililty: YES

In short: Yes.

In my game I'd likely adjucate that a natural ability to teleport would free the person/creature trapped. But an item or device which allows the person/creature to teleport, if it could be activated with little/no movement required, would bring the net with them - allowing them to teleport around but still remain trapped in the magic net.

Mystic Portal would be out, since to me that requires you to step through the portal to teleport. There is a spell called Teleport Self, which is not in canon Rifts, but can be found in the HU2 GMs Guide. i thin it is also in one of the PFRPG books, too. That would let you escape, in my opinion. For 120 PPE, it ought to.

ManDrake13 wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote:Mystic Portal would be out, since to me that requires you to step through the portal to teleport. There is a spell called Teleport Self, which is not in canon Rifts, but can be found in the HU2 GMs Guide. i thin it is also in one of the PFRPG books, too. That would let you escape, in my opinion. For 120 PPE, it ought to.

Teleport Self Rift's canon at Kevin behest as for the Megaversal Builder source book.

I just had an evil thought: if caught in a Magic Net or COA, could a mage teleport right out of his body armor?

I think with a spell or item the answer would be no. The character just doesn't have the fine control. Keep in mind though sometimes those spells or items have weight limits, so the armor might be left behind anyway. But with an innate ability I think they can choose what to leave behind and what to bring, within the weight limits (if any) of their ability.

Yes.

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

Teleportation is far more powerful than Magic Net. Unless teleportation requires some overt movement to enact, they're able to simply overpower the piddling 4th level spell.

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

Teleportation is far more powerful than Magic Net. Unless teleportation requires some overt movement to enact, they're able to simply overpower the piddling 4th level spell.

No, I meant "move" as in "make the necessary gestures, words, and/or body movements necessary to cast the Spell." Which Magic Net seems to prevent by the wording of the Spell.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

Corn read my OP... using ITEMS or NATURAL abilities... Neither of these requires you to cast while in the net, only concentration is required.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

Teleportation is far more powerful than Magic Net. Unless teleportation requires some overt movement to enact, they're able to simply overpower the piddling 4th level spell.

No, I meant "move" as in "make the necessary gestures, words, and/or body movements necessary to cast the Spell." Which Magic Net seems to prevent by the wording of the Spell.

As noted above, not all methods of teleportation require one to move; dragons can teleport by force of will, and some magic items may allow it, as well. Secondly, I see nothing in the spell which prevents speaking, which is all that is necessary to perform most invocations.

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Yes.

How??

Spell Description says that they can barely move.

Teleportation is far more powerful than Magic Net. Unless teleportation requires some overt movement to enact, they're able to simply overpower the piddling 4th level spell.

No, I meant "move" as in "make the necessary gestures, words, and/or body movements necessary to cast the Spell." Which Magic Net seems to prevent by the wording of the Spell.

As noted above, not all methods of teleportation require one to move; dragons can teleport by force of will, and some magic items may allow it, as well. Secondly, I see nothing in the spell which prevents speaking, which is all that is necessary to perform most invocations.

While there is no such thing as a List Of Movements To Cast Magic Spells, the fact that the Coalition's anti-magic countermeasures, which can be as simple as encasing the Mage inside a contraption that physically stops the character from moving, suggests that movement and not just words, is indeed a necessary component of many an Invocation.

And yes, of course if it ever comes to it, the need to move can be dictated as desired by the individual GM.


P.S. Most of us in this Thread have already "agreed" that the Net wouldn't stop Mental Teleportation or the use of simple TW Teleportation devices that don't require much more than pressing a button.

However, Palladium Fantasy specificly says that motions are not necessary. Most of the Coalition's restraint devices rely on a number of factors, including the inhibiting nature of environmental armor and the distracting nature of pain.

Mark Hall wrote:However, Palladium Fantasy specificly says that motions are not necessary. Most of the Coalition's restraint devices rely on a number of factors, including the inhibiting nature of environmental armor and the distracting nature of pain.

Good call, Mark. As a matter of fact certaim spells would be rendered useless if the mage had to be able to move freely to cast them. Escape is a good example(I wonder it that would work against Magic Net) only by gagging a spellcaster can you prevent its use. Only speaking is required to cast invocations, according PFRPG. So you have a couple more anti-Magic Net options: Dispel Magic barriers(works vs.COA, so why not) and Negate Magic, and possibly Escape, as mentioned earlier, depending on GM interpretation. All of those spells use less PPE than any teleportation spell I am aware of, and the first two would also free everyone, not just the caster. While looking at the old RMB, I noticed another casting-related tidbit: body armors are spoken of as being of composite materials, which I believe is like a kind of high tech plastic.So the armor penalties in the PFRPG that are being used against mages in metal armor would not apply. I always say that a mage can wear any type of armor, including EBA, if they want to. The issue of PA has never come up, because few mages can use it. The TW is an exception, and I believe I would allow them to cast spells while in PA, as well as use the PA's onboard weapons as temporary spell focii, as listed on RUE page 128. Of course that is an argument for another thread.

Mark Hall wrote:However, Palladium Fantasy specificly says that motions are not necessary. Most of the Coalition's restraint devices rely on a number of factors, including the inhibiting nature of environmental armor and the distracting nature of pain.

Rifts: Book of Magic, pages 20 and 276.

Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Chapter One, page 32.

Like I said earlier, there's no Book of Movements, so any such requirement for movement will have to be dictated and House Ruled by the GM.

Just saying that for at least some Spells, movement of some sort does seem to be required, and it seems rather unlikely that a Net that doesn't even allow the character to defend himself will offer that much range of motion.

I can think of canon examples that cotradict some of the statements in the works cited by Cornholioprime. For instance, the statement about magic not being able to affect those inside a vehicle.But the spell, "Life Drain''(RUE, pg. 212) does. And the hand restraining thing is ignored by every single printing of "Escape" (RUE, pg207)I have ever seen.

Captain Shiva wrote:I can think of canon examples that cotradict some of the statements in the works cited by Cornholioprime. For instance, the statement about magic not being able to affect those inside a vehicle.But the spell, "Life Drain''(RUE, pg. 212) does. And the hand restraining thing is ignored by every single printing of "Escape" (RUE, pg207)I have ever seen.

It is possible for both things to be extant at the same time -specifically, for the Spell "Escape" to be a totally vocalized Spell, AND for other Spells to require varying degrees of hand/body movement.

BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.
BoM, page 276: It's mentioned that it impairs the weaving of magic. No mention of how, or why. Primary reason? If your hands are tied, you can't take off the gag.
SoT1, page 31: Same as page 21 in BoM.

Counter-examples:
PFRPG2, page 104: "It is the properly spoken petition of words or series of words that invokes and ignites the spell into being."
page 182: "Spell magic involves spoken incantations..."

Rituals require hand gestures, but not invocations

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.
BoM, page 276: It's mentioned that it impairs the weaving of magic. No mention of how, or why. Primary reason? If your hands are tied, you can't take off the gag.
SoT1, page 31: Same as page 21 in BoM.

Counter-examples:
PFRPG2, page 104: "It is the properly spoken petition of words or series of words that invokes and ignites the spell into being."
page 182: "Spell magic involves spoken incantations..."

Rituals require hand gestures, but not invocations

You need to move your mouth to talk.

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

ADDENDUM: See also Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 189.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

You mean to force them to concentrating on something other than casting the spell?

Here's a poem in Arabic. I want you to read it while I swing a sword at you. Don't mess up! It could cause a greater demon to come and eat your face if you mess up!

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

You mean to force them to concentrating on something other than casting the spell?

Here's a poem in Arabic. I want you to read it while I swing a sword at you. Don't mess up! It could cause a greater demon to come and eat your face if you mess up!

***slash***

CarpetofAdhesion!!!!

On a slightly more 'serious' note, see Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 189 at bottom of page.

Mark Hall wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

You mean to force them to concentrating on something other than casting the spell?

Here's a poem in Arabic. I want you to read it while I swing a sword at you. Don't mess up! It could cause a greater demon to come and eat your face if you mess up!

If it's a poem I've read out loud hundreds of times it doesn't sound like much of a problem.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

ADDENDUM: See also Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 189.

The only spells I feel that definitely require hand gestures are the spells that the caster uses to fire something from his hand(Fireball, Electric Arc, etc.) I would rule that you have to point your hand toward the target, regardless of whether the spell requires a strike roll or not. The issue of breaking concentration has a few problems, since you could interpret it to mean that a a mage wearing 50 MDC armor, which takes one point of damage from a laser pistol, has his spell interrupted. I do not agree with that. If, on the other hand, a minimissile explosion for 20MD sends him flying, that might do it.

Captain Shiva wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

ADDENDUM: See also Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 189.

The only spells I feel that definitely require hand gestures are the spells that the caster uses to fire something from his hand(Fireball, Electric Arc, etc.) I would rule that you have to point your hand toward the target, regardless of whether the spell requires a strike roll or not. The issue of breaking concentration has a few problems, since you could interpret it to mean that a a mage wearing 50 MDC armor, which takes one point of damage from a laser pistol, has his spell interrupted. I do not agree with that. If, on the other hand, a minimissile explosion for 20MD sends him flying, that might do it.

I see where you are coming from, just pointing ut that on the above-listd page in RUE, it says that most Spells require some sort of hand gesture.

cornholioprime wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:BoM, page 21: All spells need spoken words. No mention of hand gestures.

That general section also says that it is usually enough to force the Mage to Parry or Block to disrupt the casting of a spell.

Since the Caster can still quickly say words if that's all that he needs to do, one can assume at least some requirement for at least accompanying hand gestures.

ADDENDUM: See also Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 189.

The only spells I feel that definitely require hand gestures are the spells that the caster uses to fire something from his hand(Fireball, Electric Arc, etc.) I would rule that you have to point your hand toward the target, regardless of whether the spell requires a strike roll or not. The issue of breaking concentration has a few problems, since you could interpret it to mean that a a mage wearing 50 MDC armor, which takes one point of damage from a laser pistol, has his spell interrupted. I do not agree with that. If, on the other hand, a minimissile explosion for 20MD sends him flying, that might do it.

I see where you are coming from, just pointing ut that on the above-listd page in RUE, it says that most Spells require some sort of hand gesture.

This may be one area where D&D has an advantage over Rifts; their spells each list component requirements:verbal,material, and somatic(hand motions.) Most Palladium spells have no component requirements.As far as the hand gesture requirement goes, some rules of thumb should apply. When casting a spell that requires the spell effect to travel in a certain direction, whether it is an attack roll or not, you should have to point towards the target. Likewise with area effect spells like COA. If a spell requires touch, that requires a hand gesture. But any spell that effects only the caster himself should not require hand motions, nor should a spell effect centered on where the caster is standing.I think that falls in line with the statement of spells requiring hand gestures to "focus and direct the mystic energy," don't you? Rifter #21 has an article called 'PPE Channeling," which allows mages to cast spells qiucker as they go up on level. Now, RUE helped Rifts magic users a god bit with their new casting rules, but I always kind of liked the idea of mages being able to light off spells more quickly as they grew in power.

pg 206 of RUE says that characters caught in a Magic Net can Turn to Mist or Teleport Out of the net. It however, this will require a successful saving throw vs magic.

Also, You have to cut your or blast your self out so that says you have some movement.

So it would seem the the official answer is yes in both cases.

Mouser13 wrote:pg 206 of RUE says that characters caught in a Magic Net can Turn to Mist or Teleport Out of the net. It however, this will require a successful saving throw vs magic.

Also, You have to cut your or blast your self out so that says you have some movement.

So it would seem the the official answer is yes in both cases.

Good of you to point that out, but the sentence about cutting or blasting, in my opinion, only applies to physical attempts to escape the net. Casters would be able to once a save vs magic is made, to teleport or otherwise escape without further hindrance. I would apply the same limitations to a Psi-Ghost, or any other non-material being.

Captain Shiva wrote: Good of you to point that out, but the sentence about cutting or blasting, in my opinion, only applies to physical attempts to escape the net. Casters would be able to once a save vs magic is made, to teleport or otherwise escape without further hindrance. I would apply the same limitations to a Psi-Ghost, or any other non-material being.

It also says the doesn't work on Psi-Ghost if they have their power active at casting.

Captain Shiva wrote: The issue of breaking concentration has a few problems, since you could interpret it to mean that a a mage wearing 50 MDC armor, which takes one point of damage from a laser pistol, has his spell interrupted. I do not agree with that. If, on the other hand, a minimissile explosion for 20MD sends him flying, that might do it.

The RIFTS book of magic and I think the RUE both say pshyical damage, which can be taking many ways.
1. Any damage
2. Damage that is physical like railgun or frag missiles
3. damage done to the mages physical body like damage from high speed impact in a vech damage after armor gone.

I play number 3, but their are most likly other possible ways.

Mouser13 wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote: Good of you to point that out, but the sentence about cutting or blasting, in my opinion, only applies to physical attempts to escape the net. Casters would be able to once a save vs magic is made, to teleport or otherwise escape without further hindrance. I would apply the same limitations to a Psi-Ghost, or any other non-material being.

It also says the doesn't work on Psi-Ghost if they have their power active at casting.

I like to collect Psi-Ghost weaknesses, since someone will be playing one in my upcoming campaign. Magic Net adds another one. I have added a signifigant limitation to the Psi-Ghost:they cannot affect the physical world while intangible. None of this, " I use Telekinesis to pull the pins on his grenades while intangible" nonsense. In my experience the biggest weakness a Psi-Ghost can have is a cocky player.

depends, but in many cases: yes. (natural abilities in any case)

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote: I like to collect Psi-Ghost weaknesses, since someone will be playing one in my upcoming campaign. Magic Net adds another one. I have added a signifigant limitation to the Psi-Ghost:they cannot affect the physical world while intangible. None of this, " I use Telekinesis to pull the pins on his grenades while intangible" nonsense. In my experience the biggest weakness a Psi-Ghost can have is a cocky player.

If psychic powers can still affect the psi-ghost, I find that a grossly one-sided ruling.

Imo, magic net is not effective once you go intangible. This HR of mine includes vampires, psi-ghosts, etc. I'd even allow phase powers to work through it, as it's not a true "field". Most "fields" are two-way. You can attack through a magic net.

The spell is retardedly useful as it is. No need to munch the living crap out of it. Folks who can go intangible, teleport, etc, are intentionally very slippery. Thus the reason abilities have been introduced which counter them directly, such as D-shackles, temporal magic spells, various OCC abilities (Shifter, LLR, Nega-Psychic, and more), etc, etc.

You are right, it would be. But the rule is, generally, you cannot affect the physical world while it cannot affect you.So about the only psychic power that would affect the Psi-Ghost while intangible is Electrokinesis, because Psi-Ghosts are vulnerable to electricity to begin with. Since it states in the decription that a Psi-Ghost cannot engage in combat while intangible, I don't think my rule is too much of a stretch. I have no problem with them using sensitive powers, since they just usually gather information. And as stated above, a Psi-Ghost can use Intangibility to escape a Magic Net; they just need to save vs magic first. If no save, no get out.Now do they not change at all, or change and stay stuck anyway? That is another question. If the latter, other not caught in the Magic Net could attack the net with little fear of harming the Psi-Ghost inside.