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i voted for the old believer, even though i think ALL the magic listed have untapped abilities and depends on how they are played.

The one I would vote for would be the Conjurer, from FOM. These guys are good as entertainers, or in a low powered campaign, but not much else. I could see one with a few well chosen psychic abilities, as an assassin, like Alter Aura and TK Acceleration Attack; you hide your true nature, get close to someone out of their MD armor, and then conjure up a popsicle stick, and shoot it through them at Mach 3. It would nice if someone did a serious revision of the class, like enabling them to make more complex mechanical objects and the like.

Captain Shiva wrote:The one I would vote for would be the Conjurer, from FOM. These guys are good as entertainers, or in a low powered campaign, but not much else. I could see one with a few well chosen psychic abilities, as an assassin, like Alter Aura and TK Acceleration Attack; you hide your true nature, get close to someone out of their MD armor, and then conjure up a popsicle stick, and shoot it through them at Mach 3. It would nice if someone did a serious revision of the class, like enabling them to make more complex mechanical objects and the like.

The unfortunate thing is that in a game like Palladium fantasy, or even HU, conjurers are an excellent class.

I couldn't choose just one.

I think magic classes that are tradition based are the worst. While I have no problem with cliche'...I do find too much of it makes something that is awesome into something that is lame

None of the above.

~ Josh

I'm writing in conjurer

for rifts it should be rewritten

the ppe cost should be lowered and the items allowed should be expanded on

also the weird thing is conjurers start with spells like superhuman strength but they can't ever learn others once the game begins unless it says create

it one dosen't make sense especailly when they can create a golem but they can't use spells that create things that don't actually say create

I love the idea of the conjurer so have played a modified version

plus the animals how complex is a rail gun really when compared to a life form

my conjuers can conjure anything they are familar with so mine who loves nerve gas has chemistry
whereas one that wants a c-12 needs electrical enineering and so forth

Is there ANY set of Palladium Magicks more useless than Spoiling Magic (or whatever that is in Rifts: Africa)??

also I like the blue flame magic

it showed some potenial and creatvity

unlike everything else listed it actually is completly orginal

then again I like the whole larhold barbarians in general

csbioborg wrote:I'm writing in conjurer

for rifts it should be rewritten

the ppe cost should be lowered and the items allowed should be expanded on

also the weird thing is conjurers start with spells like superhuman strength but they can't ever learn others once the game begins unless it says create

it one dosen't make sense especailly when they can create a golem but they can't use spells that create things that don't actually say create

I love the idea of the conjurer so have played a modified version

plus the animals how complex is a rail gun really when compared to a life form

my conjuers can conjure anything they are familar with so mine who loves nerve gas has chemistry
whereas one that wants a c-12 needs electrical enineering and so forth

I had similar thoughts.
First off the limit of only "create" spell si denied in FOM itself, as it list some spells like annihilation that they cna cast at lesser price. Personally i think they can learn all spells related to creating/conjuring stuff, except energy. Also I would allow them to get power weapon rather than superhuman strength, as sincerely is more cost worthy, since the change how SN strength work in MDC universe. And also all FOM spells related to altering objects and weapons.
Second: expand the thigns they can conjure. One thing is to allow them to do all the things their cousin, Create Force Construct major superpower form PU1. So wings, giant arms, and personal force field/armor. It doesn't need even too much work of conversion.
Third: talking of conversion, I'd allow both conjurer and Create Force Construct power owners, to conjure immaginary creatures. One could use, without much problem, the kirby Kritters from Transdimensional turtles page 105(Transdimensional is the most AWESOME book pubblished by Palladium!!!). One Draw-E points shoudl be equal to 2 PPE, the kritter will have SN strenghts, and last as any conjured animal last.
In this way COnjurer can become the equals to tatoo Monster Men(otherwise a T-Monster Man could easily break a conjurer in two, just looking at him!)

one thing that has been a source of great debate is whether a conjuer from say wormwood can conjure its native lifeforms. ALso dinosaurs are not imaginary and are mdc in rifts so why not.

I think a simple house rule would be to take a look at how much ppe it costs a con. to make a weapon vs. a tattooed man, and relate damage that way.

I know the criteria is Rifts, but what about the Mang Wu-Blind Mystic from Mystic China, & Rifts
China 2

Mellenium Druid.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Mellenium Druid.

You're right Nekira-it needs more like being able to coax other things from the Trees!

The Card Mage O.C.C. from Rifter #9 1/2 and "One Chance in a Million" should have been listed because it is intentionally weaker than other mages.

Mang Wu-Blind Mystic

Actually, I don't have a problem with this class. They have few mystic abilities as just a class, yes, but they also get access to the more mystic-oriented martial art styles. They seem pretty well balanced in relation to the other classes non-immortal classes in MC.

The Coalition would probably love to recruit one of these guys. "That old fart can cure mental illnesses, and he DOESN'T use magic to do it! Enroll him in the psi-corp, and get him a seeing eye dog boy!"

I'm not familiar with all of the choices, but the Medicine Man from Rifts Africa is definitely pretty darn weak. He's limited to only ritual magic involving a large group of participants.

Lord Z wrote:The Card Mage O.C.C. from Rifter #9 1/2 and "One Chance in a Million" should have been listed because it is intentionally weaker than other mages.

Mang Wu-Blind Mystic

yes but ludicrous magic goes hand in hand with it so it balances out played rigtcard magic can be extremly powerful

I somewhat agree, now if you could train those Blind Altaran Warrior Babes from atlantis

Mang Wu-Blind Mystic

Actually, I don't have a problem with this class. They have few mystic abilities as just a class, yes, but they also get access to the more mystic-oriented martial art styles. They seem pretty well balanced in relation to the other classes non-immortal classes in MC.

The Coalition would probably love to recruit one of these guys. "That old fart can cure mental illnesses, and he DOESN'T use magic to do it! Enroll him in the psi-corp, and get him a seeing eye dog boy!"

I'm not familiar with all of the choices, but the Medicine Man from Rifts Africa is definitely pretty darn weak. He's limited to only ritual magic involving a large group of participants.[/quote]

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Mellenium Druid.

Except they are not really a mage class. They just suck up to the trees. They are like witches in a way.

AzathothXy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Mellenium Druid.

Except they are not really a mage class. They just suck up to the trees. They are like witches in a way.

But they are listed as a mage class in the GMG, therefore, a mage class that can't actually do mage things IS the worst mage OCC in the game.

In short...exsactly the right answer

I will write in Yabbahyar Bubble Mage - I can't believe OP forgot to list it in the choices of the poll.

Khord - Lizard Mage wrote:I will write in Yabbahyar Bubble Mage - I can't believe OP forgot to list it in the choices of the poll.

are you kidding? they're awsome. the ability to use range: Self spells on others makes them just about the most versitle of all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Khord - Lizard Mage wrote:I will write in Yabbahyar Bubble Mage - I can't believe OP forgot to list it in the choices of the poll.

are you kidding? they're awsome. the ability to use range: Self spells on others makes them just about the most versitle of all.

Never Played one! Velly interlesting Indeed!

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Yeah, the bubble mages can be ok. Weird concept though.

As far as the bigger classes go, I think Mystic is one of the worst. Especially as of RUE, now that anyone who wants to play a mage with Major psychic abilities isn't giving up much.

That class is begging for a niche.

My only problem with the class it they don't learn enough psionics as they progress. They only learn 2 supers, and that's it.

cornholioprime wrote:Is there ANY set of Palladium Magicks more useless than Spoiling Magic (or whatever that is in Rifts: Africa)??

IIRC it's from Mystic Russia and the spells are for witches.

I Cannot believe no one has mentioned the Sea Druid????

I find it intresting that so many have voted for the Rain Maker. Have you seen how much damage they can do with their lightning attacks?

Yahbbayar (sic) is from Federation of Magic, & D-Bees of N.A.

Grandil wrote:Yahbbayar (sic) is from Federation of Magic, & D-Bees of N.A.

Your kidding, right? their ability to use range: self spells on anyone or anything around them makes them one of the most powerful.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Grandil wrote:Yahbbayar (sic) is from Federation of Magic, & D-Bees of N.A.

Your kidding, right? their ability to use range: self spells on anyone or anything around them makes them one of the most powerful.

Personnally, Ive never played this R.C.C., but it does sound interesting.........

argos wrote:No class is useless if you kno how to use it correctly. You would be suprised by how many times the lseer known magics pooped up in a campaign i was in and was used very creativly. Its all about rp.

True, True, but there are still those Skill bags that are usually useless, & just useless paper 1st lvl characters that just die....... sorry I had to do soem raining.........

Grandil wrote:

argos wrote:No class is useless if you kno how to use it correctly. You would be suprised by how many times the lseer known magics pooped up in a campaign i was in and was used very creativly. Its all about rp.

True, True, but there are still those Skill bags that are usually useless, & just useless paper 1st lvl characters that just die....... sorry I had to do soem raining.........

I oughta report this dude-Threadkiller

Grandil wrote:

Grandil wrote:

argos wrote:No class is useless if you kno how to use it correctly. You would be suprised by how many times the lseer known magics pooped up in a campaign i was in and was used very creativly. Its all about rp.

True, True, but there are still those Skill bags that are usually useless, & just useless paper 1st lvl characters that just die....... sorry I had to do soem raining.........

I oughta report this dude-Threadkiller

Whoa there boy, that's my title. <--- See left.

Anthar wrote:

Grandil wrote:

Grandil wrote:

argos wrote:No class is useless if you kno how to use it correctly. You would be suprised by how many times the lseer known magics pooped up in a campaign i was in and was used very creativly. Its all about rp.

True, True, but there are still those Skill bags that are usually useless, & just useless paper 1st lvl characters that just die....... sorry I had to do soem raining.........

I oughta report this dude-Threadkiller

Whoa there boy, that's my title. <--- See left.

Sorry; just some humor-iss ok isn't it?

Tyciol wrote:I'd say the Blue Flame, it never struck me as particularly useful, extensive, powerful, etc. Plus heck, can't other people learn it?

AzathothXy wrote:Except they are not really a mage class. They just suck up to the trees. They are like witches in a way.

This is an insult to witches. Witches get guaranteed powers, they have a contract with their master who can't violate it (that's why they tend to keep it broad like 'do whatever I say'). M-Ds just tend to sometimes receive more items and gifts from trees who tend to give them out to good people in general anyway. There's no point in being one if you can be another type of druid since they can make their own stuff and tend to be friends with the trees to boot.

Hound wrote:I Cannot believe no one has mentioned the Sea Druid????

Why? They're pretty useful, they have metamorphosis abilities, a unique kind of magic, and can command totem animals which are good for surveillance, transportation, spare PPE, etc.

Grandil wrote:Yahbbayar (sic) is from Federation of Magic, & D-Bees of N.A.

Pretty sure they're Psyscape, though you may be right about the D-bees one, I don't have that. I don't really want to buy a book full of reprints (same with RUE/BoM/etc)

Yer right-it is in Psyscape...... I fergot-pop

Gravitus Everlast wrote:I can't believe you guys haven't mentioned ALCHEMIST. If you go through this class you'll quickly realize that just about any player that's stacked a few magic occ's on their character and was smart enough to re-buy their skills can do almost everything the alchemist can. This class if for people who don't know how to build a character properly or who messed up a while back and, again, forgot to re-buy their skills as they progress. All they've done is take wizard, diabolist and the brewing and herbology skills and made single class out of it which you have to go through so much to even consider taking that you might as well have just built it by skill proxy along the way.

Because an alchemist is not a class a PC can have, for one.
The other is that alchemist do not go out adventuring, they stay in the shop/hut/whatever and make stuff.

So who cares wether or not its a stupid class, it is one of the strongest classes due to the alchemist's knowledge of all sorts of magic.

All so, as a GM I would have my alchemists start progressing in all their magic classes again once they became alchemists. That is too bad for the players, cause once a char becomes an alchemist, they become a NPC.

hecubus23 wrote:I'm shocked that Diabolist is not listed. Every magic OCC listed has some possibility of game play, Diabolist is just plain useless as a actual playing class. It should be NPC only.

I disagree. I've done great things with a Diabolist, especially one who has a chance to prepare.

The Gypsy Beguiler. (Mystic Russia.)

You can't cast spells. You can shapechange into normal animals with no supernatural strength. You lose half your actions when you do this. So you now are less effective than a Rogue Scholar in combat as a Grizzly Bear. You get a few psionic abilities and can take more as you go up in level. You can shapechange into other humans, but you still get only half your actions.

Here's the kicker. You get almost nothing for skills, a couple WPs, and...

An XP chart that's higher than Tattooed Man.

WHAT? That's right, it costs 2700 XP to get to second level in this horror. If ever there was a justification for O.C.C. abortion, this one is it. All I have to do is use my special abilities, and I'm less powerful than a Vagabond! With a Tattooed Man Plus experience point chart. There's only 300 XP between me and a Dragon Juicer. Can someone tell me what the justification was for this?

Balabanto wrote:The Gypsy Beguiler. (Mystic Russia.)

You can't cast spells. You can shapechange into normal animals with no supernatural strength. You lose half your actions when you do this. So you now are less effective than a Rogue Scholar in combat as a Grizzly Bear. You get a few psionic abilities and can take more as you go up in level. You can shapechange into other humans, but you still get only half your actions.

Here's the kicker. You get almost nothing for skills, a couple WPs, and...

An XP chart that's higher than Tattooed Man.

WHAT? That's right, it costs 2700 XP to get to second level in this horror. If ever there was a justification for O.C.C. abortion, this one is it. All I have to do is use my special abilities, and I'm less powerful than a Vagabond! With a Tattooed Man Plus experience point chart. There's only 300 XP between me and a Dragon Juicer. Can someone tell me what the justification was for this?

Doubling the PB attribute! Otherwise you're rite!

Mark Hall wrote:

hecubus23 wrote:I'm shocked that Diabolist is not listed. Every magic OCC listed has some possibility of game play, Diabolist is just plain useless as a actual playing class. It should be NPC only.

I disagree. I've done great things with a Diabolist, especially one who has a chance to prepare.

I agree. Diabolist is equivilant to a trap maker or buffer. If they can get a chance to prepare they are a very fun class. they work along the same lines as TW.

thurak wrote:

hecubus23 wrote:Rain Maker to me is really useless.

I'm shocked that Diabolist is not listed. Every magic OCC listed has some possibility of game play, Diabolist is just plain useless as a actual playing class. It should be NPC only.

No, the reason it is useless is because the rules for Ward Magic completely contradict each other, making it completely unplayable by the rules.

Mark Hall wrote:

hecubus23 wrote:I'm shocked that Diabolist is not listed. Every magic OCC listed has some possibility of game play, Diabolist is just plain useless as a actual playing class. It should be NPC only.

I disagree. I've done great things with a Diabolist, especially one who has a chance to prepare.

Not by the book you haven't, because by the book, there is actually very little magic the Diabolist can create.

Can you explain this so-called contradiction, because i've never seen it.

thurak wrote:Not by the book you haven't, because by the book, there is actually very little magic the Diabolist can create.

Yes, I have. Diabolists have a great utility, and the great advantage that they know a huge variety of things at low levels.

Want someone to scout ahead? Inflict + Invisibility on your sneaky person.

Want to trash a large number of people? Inflict + Area Affect + Fire, Energy, Burning Pain, Agony, or whatever, then force activate them. Pre-draw everything, then spend an action to energize it, and another to activate them when you need them. You have a circle of death which surrounds you, won't harm you, and continues for rounds.

If you're a few minutes ahead of pursuit, a quickly drawn ward on the floor will stop most who see it (who knows what it may do), and will certainly slow them down.

Inflict + Knowledge on a member of your party to allow them to speak to whoever you need.

Like Mark said-I'd love to try that with a Diabolist! Kewl Beans Mark!

thurak wrote:By the book, an Inflict ward MUST be accompanied by a condition symbol, so you would have to have Inflict+[condition]+Invisibility spell. However, you cannot do such a ward phrase unless you are adding in Permanence, since that is where using spells with wards is only mentioned, as apart of a Permanence Ward.

Perhaps I'm missing something...but to make someone invisible is inflict+condition (the condition is invisibility). That is not a spell. It's a condition. It's pg 127 under the symbols for Conditions, as well as described under 129. You don't need a spell...

Wrong. Completely wrong. And you are the one writing the book on magic for the Palladium World? Under Inflict on page 132 AND under Conditions on page 126, it states CLEARLY that you cannot use an Area Affect Ward with an Inflict Ward. There is no wiggle room here, and if you are allowing it, it's NOT canon.

No...actually it states you cannot use Inflict+condition, not that you can't use it (unless it's somewhere else). You have to instead use the ward Protection by infliction.

Page 125, under "Some Ward Limitations & Reminders", 5th bullet, it states you cannot place a ward on something that will go off the moment the ward is stepped on or touched. I agree with what you said, however, it's a contradiction that makes that use of Ward Magic unusable until there is some official errata done.

To me, the 5th limitation means you can't put ward on a sword and then activate it moments before it strikes, because the wards themselves are instant. This doesn't mean you can't combine them to make a trigger alarm ward, just that a diabolist cannot make a flameing sword or launch a rock of death.

thurak wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

thurak wrote:Not by the book you haven't, because by the book, there is actually very little magic the Diabolist can create.

Yes, I have. Diabolists have a great utility, and the great advantage that they know a huge variety of things at low levels.

Want someone to scout ahead? Inflict + Invisibility on your sneaky person.

By the book, an Inflict ward MUST be accompanied by a condition symbol, so you would have to have Inflict+[condition]+Invisibility spell. However, you cannot do such a ward phrase unless you are adding in Permanence, since that is where using spells with wards is only mentioned, as apart of a Permanence Ward.

Invisibility is a condition. That's why it's under the big heading on page 127 (PFRPG2) called "Conditions". And again on page 129 (here called "Invisible"), specifically with the note: "Ward used with: Inflict."

Want to trash a large number of people? Inflict + Area Affect + Fire, Energy, Burning Pain, Agony, or whatever, then force activate them. Pre-draw everything, then spend an action to energize it, and another to activate them when you need them. You have a circle of death which surrounds you, won't harm you, and continues for rounds.

Wrong. Completely wrong. And you are the one writing the book on magic for the Palladium World? Under Inflict on page 132 AND under Conditions on page 126, it states CLEARLY that you cannot use an Area Affect Ward with an Inflict Ward. There is no wiggle room here, and if you are allowing it, it's NOT canon.

No, it's a post written at work, regarding something I wrote seven years ago, about something I did in a game eight years ago, and without access to reference material (or, at least, relevant reference material). Protection by infliction, however, works just as well for a force-activate, and still won't hurt the diabolist.

If you're a few minutes ahead of pursuit, a quickly drawn ward on the floor will stop most who see it (who knows what it may do), and will certainly slow them down.

Page 125, under "Some Ward Limitations & Reminders", 5th bullet, it states you cannot place a ward on something that will go off the moment the ward is stepped on or touched. I agree with what you said, however, it's a contradiction that makes that use of Ward Magic unusable until there is some official errata done.

You are misreading the fifth bullet completely. Here it is, in full.

Some Ward Limitations & Reminders, page 125, PFRPG 2nd edition wrote:Wards cannot be painted on a fabric to be unrolled at a moment of crisis, nor can they be inscribed on discs, stones, arrows, weapons or objects and used as grenades; setting off a magic ward the moment it strikes somebody, is stepped on, or touched.

This does not say that a ward cannot be painted on a floor. Rather, it refers explicitly to inscribing/painting a ward onto a movable object and propelling it towards someone. A ward that is painted on the floor cannot be propelled towards someone (unless you have substantial strength or appropriate magics), but it is a perfectly valid placement for a ward.

Really, that's such a massive misunderstanding of the text that I don't wonder that you've had problems with diabolists. While not clearly phrased, the intent of the bullet point was clearly in reference to using wards as projectiles, and that wards DO go off the moment they are stepped on, struck, or touched. That has been the intent of the entire ward section to that point... that to touch or mess with a ward is to set it off.

thurak wrote:Page 132 says "Area affect wards cannot be used with an inflict ward."

Which is fine. You can't use "inflict"...but you can use condition with area effect, which is important. If you want to "inflict" on an area...you have to move up a step...and use Protection by infliction, instead of just "infliction"

That is great, for your opinion. However, you didnt write the book and Kevin S. has never given errata for ward magic. Therefore it is a contradiction and if it ways in one place you can while in another you can't, it doesnt work.

[/quote]

Well, I think Mark Hall answered this rather well and makes a good point, and I think his interpretation is the correct one. The context of the entire bullet was to specify ranged/throw weapons.

...but...beyond that...lets look at it from a logical point of view.

You agree, but you're line of thought leaves something to be desired at best. To you because it's contradicted in the book, the only logical way for you to decipher it is to use it is in a way which makes the magic unusable.

I take the same context, the same contradiction and the way I logically decipher it is to use it in a way that makes the magic much more valid and usable.

Now because it's a contradiction in the book, You can choose to follow one or the other...or simply ignore both. Logically, if you were to go up to kevin, an ask him which of the two meanings he meant by it...which do you think, using common sense, would he pick.

I must remind you though, using common sense is in the rules. PG 369 RUE

fixed for clarity

thurak wrote:

dark brandon wrote:I must remind you though, using common sense is in the rules. PG 369 RUE

Where is it in PF?

Multiverse man.

thurak wrote:

dark brandon wrote:I must remind you though, using common sense is in the rules. PG 369 RUE

Where is it in PF?

Page 37.

TrumbachD wrote:

Lobo wrote:

Balabanto wrote:The Gypsy Beguiler. (Mystic Russia.)

You can't cast spells. You can shapechange into normal animals with no supernatural strength. You lose half your actions when you do this. So you now are less effective than a Rogue Scholar in combat as a Grizzly Bear. You get a few psionic abilities and can take more as you go up in level. You can shapechange into other humans, but you still get only half your actions.

Here's the kicker. You get almost nothing for skills, a couple WPs, and...

An XP chart that's higher than Tattooed Man.

WHAT? That's right, it costs 2700 XP to get to second level in this horror. If ever there was a justification for O.C.C. abortion, this one is it. All I have to do is use my special abilities, and I'm less powerful than a Vagabond! With a Tattooed Man Plus experience point chart. There's only 300 XP between me and a Dragon Juicer. Can someone tell me what the justification was for this?

So I took a harder look at the class. Lets see what they get. A very wide and encompassing shapechange that covers animals, humans, d-bees and monsters. Since it doesn't say they lose mode of transport when they change into animals then they probably get to fly like the eagle they can turn into, or swim or burrow or whatever. They get Super Psionics! 28 skills to start and a decent amount during progression. Access to all physical, espionage, rogue and tech skills making them very formidable spies/assassins. Lots of bonuses, stats and abilities that take their trust/intimidate/seduce skills into the godly range so that they could probably bamboozle Emporer Prosek himself into revealing secrets. Changes H.P./S.D.C. to M.D.C. and gives them bio-regen. And the biggest plus of all, they are listed that they can be any race, so if you really want supernatural strength pick a race that can meet the requirements and has supernatural strength.

So all that to make them one hell of a super spy/assassin that's tough and has the versatility of many race choices. Yeah I can see why they suck...

Sounds like an excellent OCC to me.
And I can see why they'd get that high of an XP Table with all those special Abilities.

Which are useless! The moment combat starts, this PC has to RUN AND HIDE. There's nothing else they can do. Either this character is the "Star' of every adventure, or they're USELESS in every adventure. This OCC is not BALANCED or FUN for players. And if there's even one combat oriented character in the group, either they're not going to be happy, or this PC is not going to be happy. If you lose half your actions for being shapeshifted, the moment combat starts, if you don't unshift, you die. If you unshift, your cover is blown, and you die.

Life isn't fair doesn't matter here. Construction of fun scenarios for ALL the PC's, however, does. From a GM's perspective, this OCC blows.

Balabanto wrote:Which are useless! The moment combat starts, this PC has to RUN AND HIDE. There's nothing else they can do. Either this character is the "Star' of every adventure, or they're USELESS in every adventure. This OCC is not BALANCED or FUN for players. And if there's even one combat oriented character in the group, either they're not going to be happy, or this PC is not going to be happy. If you lose half your actions for being shapeshifted, the moment combat starts, if you don't unshift, you die. If you unshift, your cover is blown, and you die.

Life isn't fair doesn't matter here. Construction of fun scenarios for ALL the PC's, however, does. From a GM's perspective, this OCC blows.

I disagree. Only in adventures that are either pure combat or pure "other" will this character be unfun. In typical games you should have both instances...times for adventure and times of combat. Beyond that, is there anything keeping this character from picking up a laser rifle and shooting it (IE can they get WPs?). If not, then they are about average in combat, because most OCC's shoot with the same exact bonuses and penalties equvillant to their level.

Also, except for the normal mage penalties, can they still wear armor? What kind of piloting skills can they get, what about pilot related?