Page 1 of 1

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:38 am
by t0m
its a tough call on whether you did enough or not enough. its your setting as gm so its up to you if you want to let people walk into a burger joint with an f'ing katana. you couldnt really get away with it in real life, so in that regard you did it right imo (with the civilian reaction). if your players want to play in a world where they can get a happy meal while sporting huge swords maybe you should re-evaluate how you run the game, or talk to them about it and see if you can compromise. just make sure to stick with it for the whole game/campaign and maintain the feel you are creating. if its a bad ass world and its not uncommon to see a demon hunting, katana wielding guy snagging a burger, make sure it stays that way...if not then he should get hassled everywhere he goes, weapon confiscated etc until he learns that is how it works and to lay low.

also as far as i know, concealed weapons permits are only for handguns (and possibly knives) so they would/should have been all over him for bringing a huge sword with him, even if his id and record are clean (his record may be clean but this counts as an offense in most places, so his clean record should now have at least a note on it stating that he was written up for packing a sword into mcdonalds, possibly even going as far as taking away his concealed weapons permit for good).

i have very little experience in modern/current settings as a gm, so my advice might be slightly out of context. i play pf and i hassle my players more than you did about weapons in public/towns/non-combat situations, even though pf is a setting where monsters and swordsmen are every day/common knowledge for most people...its really up to you and your players how to run the setting in an enjoyable way. personally i would have laughed at him for even trying to do that, and asked him what he would do if a huge trench coat guy came into his burger shack with a katana. if his character was opposed to going without his sword, suggest that he stick with the drive thru next time....

in the end, things like this just slow the actual game down because you (the gm) is sitting there suddenly trying to come up with a response from law enforcement and dilly dallying around with him making excuses and all that, which im sure wasnt part of your game plan for the night and likely took valuable time away from your itinerary. its best to establish these things ahead of time, or in your first game session so they are dealt with and out of the way.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:45 am
by Noon
Why did you bother?

I mean, just because it bothers your sense of realism, doesn't mean a better story will come out of having cops hassle him over it.

Attaining plausible realism doesn't generate a story at all. It's just plausbile realism being plausible, ad nauseum.

Assuming you want to make a new story, rather than play being a recreationist event. Recreationists reinact old battles - they don't make new storys, they just play out old battles over and over. Is gameplay just recreation of the nightbane scenario, or are you aiming to make a new story that draws from nightbane?

If so, stop being so picky over everything that doesn't seem plausible. Being picky about plausibility <> generate story.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:05 pm
by Warwolf
I, for one, applaud the way you handled it. I tend to lean towards a more plausible and gritty style of game myself, and your handling of this situation is not in any way different than I would have done things (though depending on the date in your campaign I would say that CWPs may have gone the way of the dinosaur).

In Nightbane, just because someone may play a character that can go all "John Woo" on the minions of the Nightlords doesn't mean that they are somehow above the law. In fact, a major element of Nightbane is that this war is "in the shadows" so that people don't realize exactly what is going on. So, if the player is dense enough to walk around packing heat as (nearly) impossible to conceal as a D.E. and a frickin' sword, he needed to be taught that isn't the way to be covert.

With that said, it may have been the case that the player didn't really understand this element of the setting. If that is the case, you need to cover this with them so that their playing with a full deck so to speak.

Whatever the case, I would say keep on with that uncommon common sense just as long as you're fair about it and the players are having fun under those constraints. :)

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:32 pm
by Cybermancer
Let's reveiw.

Someone see's a character carrying a concealed weapon.

That someone calls the police.

The character disarms himself by throwing the weapon into their car and waits for the police.

Police arrive and draw their guns. This seems like an unnecessary escalation of force. They're facing a guy who isn't obviously armed and isn't fleeing the scene. Then again, this is the Nightbane world and police may either have learned or been ordered to approach these situations ready for gunfire. That would depend on your interpretation of police in that environment.

They then order him to the ground with his hands up. They haven't asked him any questions at this point. Not, "Where's the sword?" or "Do you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon?" They've gone right to drawing their guns and ordering their suspect (who is innocent until proven guilty) to get to the ground. From the information presented, he hasn't made any overtly hostile moves. So this stance seems overly aggressive. But again, this may be from bitter experience or altered laws/orders from their superiors. That is a matter for you as GM to interpret.

Then the character refuses. It is always a bad idea to refuse to comply with the police. It has been known to lead to butt whuppings.

He's lucky all they did was handcuff him.

Still, it seems odd that they didn't run his CWC before threatening him. He hadn't broken any laws and they didn't bother to try and confirm if any laws were broken. They went right to drawn weapons and cuffing the suspect. Maybe this is now standard procedure in your version of Nightbane. You could certainly make a case for it. If so, then the scenerio remains plausible within the context of your game world, where police have gotten a little bit more gestapo like.

If this were the real world or another contemporary world, I would see it going down a little differently.

Police arrive. They run the plates of the car that the suspect is standing near.

Both get out of their cruiser. One keeps the cruiser between them and the suspect. They may or may not have a hand on their holster.

The other officer approachs the suspect but remains a safe distance away. They may ore may not have a hand on their holster. This officer addresses the character. "We've heard reports that you were carrying a concealed weapon."

The character, if they're being reasonable might respond with. "Yes, I was. But I have a CWC."

Then the officer would ask, "I'm going to need to see that. I'm also going to have to ask you to remain here while we check it along with your ID."

If the character hasn't done anything illegal and is reasonable, they'll comply.

The lD and CWC are checked and returned to the character. The officer may or may not give the character a short lecture before sending them on their way.

Of coure, in a nightbane world, the police may not even be human which changes everything.

I hope this helps.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:49 am
by Spinachcat
You only did one thing wrong - and it was the worst thing you could do. You made your game boring. Nobody sits down to play Real Life: the Drudgery when they show up at an RPG session.

Nightbane is horror adventure. When you're not scaring your players, you better be thrilling them with action and mystery!

There is a book called "How to Write Horror Fiction" - its pretty good and you can read in cover to cover in less than 4 hours. Worth getting from the local library. Your players will thank you!

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:22 am
by KillWatch
For the most part I think you did fine. I think you ay have misstepped at everyone's perception roll. People aren't really that perceptive. A quick glance to see who has just come in a second glance at the wierdos and that is about it (I'm one of the wierdos). Most McDonalds are sectioned off like cubicle farms, and I think the only real way anyone without reason to be firtive would notice is if they were sitting in the same or adjacent section, where they would see the sword while the PC is sitting down. Unless he takes it off and puts it on the seat, somehow rolling concealment while doing so, its going to be seen. Soemthing else is taht he probably should have jsut left it in the car unless he expected the McDs staff to screw with his milk shake and give him strawberry instead of chocolate.

I like realistic games. Even if I am a half demon in the city, I should probably becareful unless i want to be hassled by news reports, camera phones, monser hunters etc. If you are playing a stealthy assassin be stealthy. Common sense should always apply. I mean how many times have you been taken out of the flow of a movie or book because something broke that common sense or made you roll your eyes?

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:24 pm
by Rockwolf66
Just from my personal experiance with experimenting as to what a calf lenght swede duster will cover.

Katanas are concealable as they are usually relativly long and flat especialy those without a Tsuba.

Shotguns are concealable to a point. usually if you have a fully stocked shotgun with a barrel over 18.5 inches it shows pokeing out from under the coat. Shorter barrels are fine. Shortbarrels with Pistol grips are concealable under sportcoats.

As far as Submachineguns go the British conceal MP-5K submachineguns with short 15 round magazines under loose fit sportcoats. I've seen the same rig conceal Ingram MAC-10s and Mini/Micro uzis.

Probably the worst concealment job I saw was a cop who let his coat ride up and expose his hoster to whoever was looking in his direction. Other people I know carry handguns in outfits that you have to ask them where and how they have their full sized handgun hidden.

Remember that the weapon carried controls your wardrobe and how you can act in public. Should there be any question about concealing something I would say buy a cheap airsoft version and try to conceal it while inside a private residence.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:26 pm
by Warwolf
Spinachcat wrote:You only did one thing wrong - and it was the worst thing you could do. You made your game boring. Nobody sits down to play Real Life: the Drudgery when they show up at an RPG session.

Nightbane is horror adventure. When you're not scaring your players, you better be thrilling them with action and mystery!

There is a book called "How to Write Horror Fiction" - its pretty good and you can read in cover to cover in less than 4 hours. Worth getting from the local library. Your players will thank you!


I have to disagree. In my opinion he imposed plausible consequences for the player's lack of foresight. Oh, and while Nightbane may have a large horror element to it, there is soooo much more to the setting than straight-up horror.

The only flaw I see (which I simply didn't catch last time) was that the NSB wasn't called in when the character summoned up Magic Armor in broad daylight. In Nightbane that would be a sure-fire way to bring a lot more heat down on yourself than you can handle. :?

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:08 am
by Noon
Warwolf, some people are going for (horror) story - as said, plausible consquences don't automatically make a story. I dunno what the OP is going for - he might have been applying plausible consequences thinking it somehow makes a story by itself.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:07 pm
by cyber-yukongil v2.5
my only suggestion, and only to keep with the feeling of the game, the cops would have been minions of the Nightlords.

Mundane cop search and hassel and then release; kind of boring and waste of valuable RP time.

Hollow cop search, arrest carted off to the boonies and attempted assassination; fun and quite possibly pushes forward the storyline while making the characters paranoid of the po-po. :P

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:17 pm
by Warwolf
Noon wrote:Warwolf, some people are going for (horror) story - as said, plausible consquences don't automatically make a story. I dunno what the OP is going for - he might have been applying plausible consequences thinking it somehow makes a story by itself.


I think you may be misunderstanding me a tad bit, Noon. Never did I say that plausibility in and of itself makes a good game, just that the GM's application of common sense in this particular instance was not a detriment to "story."

As far as the horror aspect of Nightbane, it is integral to the setting and should at least play a fairly important part in most games. That said, part of the "horror" of the setting is the near-Orwellian brand of totalitarian government that has resulted from the Nightlords controlling the national policies... which is part of what was going on in this situation. Keep in mind that not all horror is blood, guts, and monsters. It seems that the issue with the law enforcement crackdown on this character and his friends is simply "setting the stage" in the Corporal's campaign for some future nastiness and intrigue. :)

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:57 pm
by Noon
I think it took up time and effort on something that didn't contribute to story. That could be seen as a detriment to story - keep spending all the time and effort on that stuff, and you'll never get around to in session story generation. And I don't believe it was 'setting the stage' at the time, from the account given. I can't exactly prove that, but if it wasn't actually setting the stage at the time, it wont benefit (and will probably harm) play to try and call it that afterward. To repeat the disclaimer, that's if it wasn't actually setting the stage.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:35 pm
by KillWatch
1) it makes them think. I mean if everyone is ignoring details then there is no use is using subtlety or clues. Here's the big baddy ok dead. here's the next baddie ok dead. I think the more detail you give toa PC the mroe real they are.

2) You are over stating the issue. He isn't spending all his time on this. This was one instance where the players weren't thinking

The details are what makes things interesting. If not why not just say you have a gun that does 3d6.
What is it a revolver? an auto?
Um does it matter? It shoots bullets

This chick looks at you and you guys do it
wait what?
oh and you got an std

Wait didn't you say that guy had a patch on his right eye?
Huh? oh yeah I guess whatever

What do you mean not everyone in the villains base was evil and guilty? You expect me to go through that kind of minutia? How do the one or two innocents add to the story?
Well 2 of them were your parents.
So? What can they do for my character? Build a super weapon? Teach me a new spell? hand over Castlerake?
well no
Then my character sheds a lone tear and uses his rage to fight on against evil everywhere

The bright side is that if the GM is sticking to details on this issue, then the players can expect him to keep it going and give the players props when he should

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:44 am
by acreRake
I think you handled it perfectly.

I've lived in a few small towns in OK myself, and i was going to say that people in those places were actually LESS likely to interrupt their meals just because someone came in with a sword or a gun.

But as you pointed out, even the gun laws have been changed by the Preservers and after Dark Day (especially in a town which you say is now Nightlord controlled) people are more likely to be jumpy, suspicious and/or Preverts themselves.

I'm pretty sure magic armor is invisible... and it's reasonable that the cops that came weren't capable of sensing the threat (active use of magic ...nightbane?) though i probably would have sent out something nasty right out of the box. Or at least had them followed, by "activists" if nothing else. But that's just personal taste.

But, by using a throwaway encounter like this to set up further complications based on the player's bad judgment is exactly what a good GM does and what players should expect.

Tangentially also why i give out XP for bad decisions/plans/failures as well as good.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:01 pm
by Warwolf
acreRake wrote:I'm pretty sure magic armor is invisible...


Hmm... I don't recall that being in the description. Of course, I'm not sure it ever was stated as being visible either. I'll look into it, but there might be another errata for the next book (and an interesting topic to discuss with KEV). I personally treat it as visible. :)

Noon wrote:I think it took up time and effort on something that didn't contribute to story. That could be seen as a detriment to story - keep spending all the time and effort on that stuff, and you'll never get around to in session story generation. And I don't believe it was 'setting the stage' at the time, from the account given. I can't exactly prove that, but if it wasn't actually setting the stage at the time, it wont benefit (and will probably harm) play to try and call it that afterward. To repeat the disclaimer, that's if it wasn't actually setting the stage.


On the contrary, if you look at what has followed, it set things in motion that are having a profound effect on the story. What's the difference if it was originally intended to or whether Michael adapted the game to give that event meaning? The ultimate end is that an interesting element has been added to the overall story that wasn't there before, giving more depth to the campaign in its entirety (which I consider to be a good thing).

I also think you may be over-generalizing this one instance to the guy's entire campaign... which I think would be a mistake.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:15 pm
by acreRake
Well i checked and Magic Armor is, indeed, good old Armor of Ithan with a better name, and therefore [specifically] "invisible," "weightless" and "noiseless".
NB: pg131

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:12 am
by GreenGhost
Alejandro wrote:I think you were more than generous in dealing with the PC. The sword...not too many people would truly be concerned about. The GUN? Yeah, that's getting phone calls left & right.

I love the whole refusing the cops bit just because he has a CWP. Cops don't take kindly to someone they think has a gun (no cop saw this guy put his weapons in the trunk, they're not psychic) who refuses to cooperate. Crap like that gets people killed because cops don't know or care if you have a CWP. If they say get out of the car and lay down, you do it. That this guy only got a ticket after refusing to cooperate with law enforcement personnel shows how nice you were being.

Though I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd say "I wish a cop would do that to me in real life! I'd kick his ass!" and other such assorted nonsense.


Agreed.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:42 am
by BillionSix
I personally, wouldn't go to the extent of making rolls for so many people.

It's like "Well, there should be x amount of people in the McD. Such and such percentage is extra perceptive and gets a +1 bonus. If they notice,they will call the cops."
It seems like a lot of thought.

I say, if it would make an interesting story for someone to call the cops, then do it. If it gets in the way of the story, then don't. If you like to keep it a bit random, because you are not sure where to take it, then come up with a generalized perception roll for the whole group. Because if you make a roll for every person, every time, of course one of them will make it, and you will have legal problems every time the guy goes outside with his sword.
If you want that, great. If it's a hassle, then don't do it, or at least make it less common. If the guy says he is taking precautions to conceal the sword, then let him get away with it most of the time.
Just my thoughts.

Another thing: Not everyone is going to call the cops. You might get a teenager who blatantly comes up to the PC and says, "Dude! Is that a real sword? Can I see it?"

Brian

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:29 pm
by KillWatch
"sure kid" and then he dies

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:40 pm
by acreRake
Warwolf wrote:
acreRake wrote:I'm pretty sure magic armor is invisible...


Hmm... I don't recall that being in the description. Of course, I'm not sure it ever was stated as being visible either. I'll look into it, but there might be another errata for the next book (and an interesting topic to discuss with KEV). I personally treat it as visible.
Sorry, but i just keep thinking about this. The fact that magical armor (AoI) is invisible is kind of foundational to how mages work in every single Palladium game.

Are you the guy what wrote the (hopefully) new Nightbane book?

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:50 pm
by Warwolf
acreRake wrote:Sorry, but i just keep thinking about this. The fact that magical armor (AoI) is invisible is kind of foundational to how mages work in every single Palladium game.

Are you the guy what wrote the (hopefully) new Nightbane book?


I don't see how one spell having a visible effect is foundational to the workings of the magic system, so you'll have to expound a little more on this point for me to be able to form a targeted response. However, here is a general explanation of my position on the matter:

In my estimation of the magic system as explained in TtGD, it would be POSSIBLE for magic armor to be invisible, if that is the construct the mage mentally shaped it into. However, there would be influencing factors on whether or not the mage WOULD create armor that was invisible (such as whether the spell was learned from another, which would most likely cause the caster to visualize and shape it in a similar). Now, when it comes to GAME BALANCE, I advocate visible armor unless there is a slight variation on the spell that cost an extra P.P.E. or two (given the added benefit of the armor being invisible).

In answer to your question, yes, I am one of the two guys who wrote the new Nightbane supplement. Irvin Jackson (El Magico ~ DLDC) has been my partner in this endeavor.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:33 pm
by acreRake
It's just weird to me that you would think it would be anything but invisible, as it is that way in every single Palladium game (including first ed).

IMHO:
Without Armor of Ithan cast before combat begins, a kid with a sack of rocks can take a Palladium Books spell caster out of the picture. If Armor of Ithan/Magic Armor wasn't invisible then anytime you want to get into a situation where casting spells might be headed off by distractions (being attacked) you'd have to create a flashy demonstration that you're a magic user.
Therefore, it is foundational in that: in order to play an effective mage (in any Palladium game) you need to have a way to defend yourself that is discreet. I guess that's just my opinion. Other players may never have faced an opponent that is capable of disrupting their spell casting.

As to charging more for the standard armor spell:
It seems like you would need to charge more for the weird variant that creates more effects (ie a visual component, an auditory component and mass). For what it's worth, i'm on the side of making magic more subtle not less: especially after reading TtGD.

Meh. Whatever. :fool:

EDIT:
I didn't want to bump this thread with more of (let's be honest) our threadjack, but i just wanted to apologize if i came off so pedantic. I just wanted to be sure i was understood, not that i was the end-all-be-all... or even right. Sorry.

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:19 am
by Iczer
Have spent a while on Concealed carry permits, and on blade laws.

As a general rule, in the US, a concealed carry permit never applies for blades of any sort (varies from state to state of course). More to the point, a concealed Katana seems to be a weapons offence all over.

I think it would help to know which state he's in and what is his legal reason for his CC Permit.

Other wise
http://www.donath.org/Rants/StateKnifeLaws/
http://home.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

The other thing to note is that CCW's will restrict the calibre of firearm one can use (and I'm sure in the repressive, nightlord controlled territories of earth the legal wiggle room is low).
Other than that, the Desert eagle has show a huge variety of flaws (IRL):
Ammunition is expensive. Good luck using it at the practise range, becuase it's a small fortune just to reload. The kick is monstrous. The action keeps shaking the weapon meaning higher maintenence and larger chance of misfire. the heavy calibre and large penetration means that a miss (and somethiimes a hit) leaves the character liable for property damage.They are loud and unsubtle, and their bulk makes them extremely uncomfortable to house in a shoulder holster, impossible in a small of back or ankle holster and very public in a hip holster. Lastly, the weapon is rare, and as such it's easier to track down people who use them (the police have a much smaller pool of suspects to pick over).

All in all, book him Danno. one count posession with intent to terrify, one count illegal carry, and one count of being a nutjob for carrying the things into Macdonalds.

Batts

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:45 pm
by Warwolf
acreRake wrote:It's just weird to me that you would think it would be anything but invisible, as it is that way in every single Palladium game (including first ed).

IMHO:
Without Armor of Ithan cast before combat begins, a kid with a sack of rocks can take a Palladium Books spell caster out of the picture. If Armor of Ithan/Magic Armor wasn't invisible then anytime you want to get into a situation where casting spells might be headed off by distractions (being attacked) you'd have to create a flashy demonstration that you're a magic user.
Therefore, it is foundational in that: in order to play an effective mage (in any Palladium game) you need to have a way to defend yourself that is discreet. I guess that's just my opinion. Other players may never have faced an opponent that is capable of disrupting their spell casting.

As to charging more for the standard armor spell:
It seems like you would need to charge more for the weird variant that creates more effects (ie a visual component, an auditory component and mass). For what it's worth, i'm on the side of making magic more subtle not less: especially after reading TtGD.

Meh. Whatever. :fool:


I'm just going to go ahead and quote myself with some emphasis to clear up something in regards to Magic Armor being invisible:

I wrote:Hmm... I don't recall that being in the description.


...and I didn't. It has honestly never been an issue in any game I have run, so my eyes glazed over that word in the text. After reviewing the material, it states quite plainly that it is invisible (as well as weightless... which was part of my concept of it anyway). The only thing I can think is that the picture in RUE (The TW in enchanted armor, pg. 111?) threw me off. So, yeah, I agree with your positions on it completely. Obviously his casting magic was reported due to the specific motions and chanting involved, so it's a moot point now. But still, I wanted to make sure I was clear on this side-topic. :)

Re: How would you have handled this

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:39 pm
by cyber-yukongil v2.5
then it doesn't sound like it was a waste of time, since you are using it for a starting point for bigger things.

I don't have much patience for throw-away scenes, everything should work towards some goal, whether it be plot, character development or some other reason.