Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies

[wildhood]

Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies: Who would win & why? If the Zendraedi had there big fleet of ships I think they would of have a good chance of winning.

[ZINO]

Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies: Who would win & why? If the Zendraedi had there big fleet of ships I think they would of have a good chance of winning.

Three Galaxies hands down sorry i love Zentraedi
1 No v.f.f
2 no P.P.B systems
3 light MDC Mecha
4 No magic tech
5 Glass cannon taticis
6 phaseworld has a large verarity of tech unknown to zentradi
7 zen = big target same thing with spaceships

[Greyaxe]

#G, hands down. the great powers controll massive land areas and thoes that dont can summon reinofrments from etra dimensions. Totally 3g.

[Dr. Doom III]

Zentradi.

While battle pods are made of tissue paper the capital ships out class anything in the three galaxies.
If your looking at a few million ships forget about it.

[Marcethus]

Zentradi.

While battle pods are made of tissue paper the capital ships out class anything in the three galaxies.
If your looking at a few million ships forget about it.

I agree especially if they had a Robotech Factory with them.

[taalismn]

Zentradi.

While battle pods are made of tissue paper the capital ships out class anything in the three galaxies.
If your looking at a few million ships forget about it.

Zentraedi ships lack forceshields....the 3G ships should be able to wear down that heavy armor....


The Zentraedi will get mauled by the variety of talents and abilities fielded by the 3G powers, even though the 3G ships will be massacred in the process...

[DhAkael]

Apples & oranges time here.
Despite the (now further and further untrue) claims that PBooks is a "megaversal game system", very rarely are the stats, rules or even physics, congruent.
HOWEVER; the Zentraedi do NOT have to go against all the PTB in the 3G at once. Plus they have been known to take on slaves to fix their gear if they are nowhere near a factory. All they need is to have a few reverse engineered cap-ship shield projectors for their "loyal micron servants" to look at, install them on the ships and...well...
Long range firepower WINS!
...
...
...
That is until the R&D departments in the CCW & TGE get their collective heads out of their tuckuses and upgrade their primary cap-ship cannons.
Seriously, the ranges given for the battleship class cannons SUCK in the PW setting and are equal to "knife fighting range" in any other sci-fi game system that uses interstellar warships.

[taalismn]

Phaze stealth anyone?

[sHaka]

I'm sure the 3G's can find a better looking and more competant singer than Minmei

[drewkitty ~..~]

RT ed 1 Zent capital ships hands down. the three galaxy ships are out ranged and out powered.
The Zent main capital ship weapons do 1d4x1000 MD. (Laser turrets) This the power range of the 3G capital ships super gun.
the zent laser turret cannon has a range of about 200,000 miles, 3G weapons are measured in feet.

[Esckey]

Straight up draw. Compareing the Flagship(4024M) to the Doombringer(3962M+) and Protector(1220M)
The fleets of the 3G out number the Zentraedi(probably, we never get a good number) and they are more armoured(440K MDC vs 205K) and have phase beams.

The Zentraedi have an outstanding weapons range(60,000 miles vs 120/100 Miles) and above par damage(Max of 6K-60K compared to 8K-48K/8K-32K) and are faster in sublight(Mach 23.3 vs Mach 9/7.5) on paper that is.

The 3Gs would slowly get chewed up, as the Zentradie stay out of range, only deciding factor is how precise a CG Drive is in FTL. If the 3Gs warp into the middle of them its probably going to be all over for the Zentraedi, but not with out some seriously horrific damage(29.8K-344.8K MDC per Flagship) inflicted on the 3Gs Fleets

Edit: well actually the 3G ships can volley their missles while the Zentraedi can't which is odd. But if they Volley all launchers to max, the Protector can dish out 90.88K-543.84K MDC in one melee round while the Doombringer which is more the 3 times it size can only do 36.88K-188.64K.

Other Edit: Actually divide those damages in half, your not likly to fire everything on the left side of your ship at something thats on the right side of your ship.

[Marcethus]

Straight up draw. Compareing the Flagship(4024M) to the Doombringer(3962M+) and Protector(1220M)
The fleets of the 3G out number the Zentraedi(probably, we never get a good number) and they are more armoured(440K MDC vs 205K) and have phase beams.

The Zentraedi have an outstanding weapons range(60,000 miles vs 120/100 Miles) and above par damage(Max of 6K-60K compared to 8K-48K/8K-32K) and are faster in sublight(Mach 23.3 vs Mach 9/7.5) on paper that is.

The 3Gs would slowly get chewed up, as the Zentradie stay out of range, only deciding factor is how precise a CG Drive is in FTL. If the 3Gs warp into the middle of them its probably going to be all over for the Zentraedi, but not with out some seriously horrific damage(29.8K-344.8K MDC per Flagship) inflicted on the 3Gs Fleets

I highly doubt the fleets of the 3g would outnumber the Zentraedi. Given that the Master's believed in Overkill and instead of repairing replacing their fleets would be immensely huge.

And Braden posted somewhere that FTL drives can't go FTL that quickly and stop that quickly. IIRC I think it requires one minute per FTL Speed per hour to spin up and the same to decelerate.

[Esckey]

I highly doubt the fleets of the 3g would outnumber the Zentraedi. Given that the Master's believed in Overkill and instead of repairing replacing their fleets would be immensely huge.

While that is probably true, the simple lack of numbers for the 3G is the problem. The Grand Fleet was 4-5 Million capital ships(probably 2 to 4 times the number of smaller ships) On the boards we have theorized how many ships they may have and even combined the numbers only came out to 785,250 ships. So yes they would be wasted, but thats only useing the numbers we've come up with(and Braden if he has some in his book)

And Braden posted somewhere that FTL drives can't go FTL that quickly and stop that quickly. IIRC I think it requires one minute per FTL Speed per hour to spin up and the same to decelerate.

With out the book, which hasn't been released, how is one suppose to know that? And on top of it when does it become cannon? When the book is released or when the manuscript goes to PB?

[Marcethus]

And Braden posted somewhere that FTL drives can't go FTL that quickly and stop that quickly. IIRC I think it requires one minute per FTL Speed per hour to spin up and the same to decelerate.

With out the book, which hasn't been released, how is one suppose to know that? And on top of it when does it become cannon? When the book is released or when the manuscript goes to PB?

Considering that Braden posted it as a teaser to his book. I would take it as basically canon, unless it gets cut. But we won't know that till the book gets released.

[Aramanthus]

The range of the PHase World ships is the reason I discarded the official ranges along time ago. I've used and will continue to use Kitsune's Ranges over PBs. They make a lot more sense. As for who would win, that is an interesting little problem. Don't forget fold systems "DO NOT" function properly in Phase World setting. So that means the Zentraedi will be travelling really slowly until someone refits their ships with CG FTL drives. Although with their primary heavy particle beam reaching out and touching the distances that even Kitsune's altered ranged can not. I feel that with similiar ranges with primary energy weapons the Forces of Three galaxies would have a serious advantage by running a hit and run FTL campaign on their slower foes. Since they can jump out and in at their own will. The Zentraedi will loose due to tactics that they can't utilise.

[Dr. Doom III]

The range of the PHase World ships is the reason I discarded the official ranges along time ago. I've used and will continue to use Kitsune's Ranges over PBs. They make a lot more sense. As for who would win, that is an interesting little problem. Don't forget fold systems "DO NOT" function properly in Phase World setting. So that means the Zentraedi will be travelling really slowly until someone refits their ships with CG FTL drives. Although with their primary heavy particle beam reaching out and touching the distances that even Kitsune's altered ranged can not. I feel that with similiar ranges with primary energy weapons the Forces of Three galaxies would have a serious advantage by running a hit and run FTL campaign on their slower foes. Since they can jump out and in at their own will. The Zentraedi will loose due to tactics that they can't utilise.

It works fine for the Intruders.

[Aramanthus]

Ah but they aren't under the scutiny of this thread! Although they might be watching.

[Marcethus]

I agree with Doom, I do know that in the PW main book that it mentioned that Space Fold systems don't work bu then they turn around and say that the Intruder's have a Space Fold Technology system that blows that out of the water so I see no reason to say that the Zentraedi's space fold system doesn't work.

[Aramanthus]

They aren't the Intruders. Their tech isn't quite up too the Intruders.

[Marcethus]

They aren't the Intruders. Their tech isn't quite up too the Intruders.

Given the time gap in printings its a differing version of Tech not some much a Technological Gap.

[Greyaxe]

I agree with Doom, I do know that in the PW main book that it mentioned that Space Fold systems don't work bu then they turn around and say that the Intruder's have a Space Fold Technology system that blows that out of the water so I see no reason to say that the Zentraedi's space fold system doesn't work.

Actually, it doesn't say space folds dont work in 3G it says 3G havent perfected the technology. It interfeers with animatter reactors.

Three Galaxies book Pg 132 nothing saying the Zentradi couldn't user space fold technology.

[Marcethus]

I agree with Doom, I do know that in the PW main book that it mentioned that Space Fold systems don't work bu then they turn around and say that the Intruder's have a Space Fold Technology system that blows that out of the water so I see no reason to say that the Zentraedi's space fold system doesn't work.

Actually, it doesn't say space folds dont work in 3G it says 3G havent perfected the technology. It interfeers with animatter reactors.

Three Galaxies book Pg 132 nothing saying the Zentradi couldn't user space fold technology.

Interesting shows that its been a while since i looked up that specific detail and I am running a PW online game lol.

[Aramanthus]

But according to the Original Phase World book. Rifts Dimension book two. On page 152 a little over mid way on the first paragraph it says.

"Other cultures of the Megaverse have developed space-fold drives, but this system has a lot of risks. For reasons unknown, space-fold drives are very likely to malfunction in the Three Galaxies. Some blame the Cosmic Forge for it. Others think that the strong presence of magic and ley lines even in empty space may somehow disrupt those systems."

So I'll use that to say that the forces of the Three Galaxies will eventually be able to stop the Zentraedi, even if they have a massive fleet.

[Qev]

Considering that your typical Zentradi destroyer can one-shot any 3G ship (or several) at a range of 200000 miles (assuming it's not using an OP-Field), I think the 3G might be in a bit of trouble.

[wildhood]

The Zentraedi could set up its own empire in one of the Three Galaxies & be a new power block that would change the future if they could fine people to help build/repair there war machines.

[MikelAmroni]

Drop a major fleet (or two) of Zentraedi (usually measures in the millions of ships per fleet) with an attendant Robotech Factory, and the Zents are going to steam roll their first few enemies, and eventually find a group of slaves/allies who will help them get CG drives in their ships, and they will be able to carve out their own little slice of the galaxy, and eventually be in the same position as the TGE or CCW, a major powerbloc that everyone can counter, but no one can dislodge.

[The Beast]

I say the 3 Galaxies would win and here's why:

1 = Once the Zentradi posse a big enough threat several groups would take intrest in stopping them (Cosmos-Knights & 2nd-stage Promethians are the first to come to my mind).

2 = As pointed out, protoculture-based space fold has issues when operating near powerful ley lines. This is found in at least two seperate books. CB1 mentions the original space fold drive issue. Someone above pointed out the Intruders may use a space fold drive. If this is the case, then it can't be protocultured-based, because they don't seem to have any issues with using it, and the Invid Flower of Life can only grow on Earth.

3 = Zentradi can't repair their stuff. They also can't replace their protoculture supplies. No one mentioned the Robotech Masters coming with the Zentradi, so I'm also not sure if the Zentradi can clone themselves, or if this was done soley by the Masters.

4 = The Invid go where the protoculture is, and attack everyone who uses it. The major powers of the 3 Galaxies use anti-matter power systems.

5 = The 3 Galaxies are populated by several species that use magic, psionics, or both. If the tactics that many on the boards say Tolkeen should have used against the CS are used here, then it should help overcome any range advantage the Zentradi possess with their ships.

6 = The 3 Galaxies are more familiar with their "homeland" than the Zentradi are. Amongst the major powers they know all the spots to hide, ambush, rest, ect.

7 = The Zentradi's main tactic seems to be blitzkrieg attack with overwhelming numbers. This is good only as long as they continue to have large numbers, and surprise on their side. Then again, Macross is the only thing I've seen with them and from what Breetai had said about Earth not having any space warfare tactics this might have been only done against Earth and similarly developed planets.

[Aramanthus]

But as I said earlier Qev, I use Kitsune's adjusted weapon ranges for my Three Galaxies ships. That evens the score as far as range goes. I'm never going to consent to using the ones in the book, especially considering how advanced they are supposed to be. So in my games expect that Protector BB to be able to hit you at over 150,000 miles with it's main weapons and it's missiles can reach out and touch you at 4,000,000 miles.

And as for numbers, yeah those Zentraedi have the advantage of numbers, but if they appear in an area where there is no major tech worlds available they are screwed. They'll be stuck traveling at sublight for maybe centuries. And the powers of the Three Galaxies can pick them apart at their leisure. But until they can convert their ships drives they aren't going to be craving any sort of huge empire. They'll be confined to a very small piece of real estate in.

[Marcethus]

I also don't agree that Protoculture Space Fold would be affected. its just that the 3G's haven't figured out how to Spacefold and there are theories as to why.

[Aramanthus]

Then in your game run it differently. But the ranges were screwed up from the moment they wrote the Phase dimension book. The tech level of Phase World is at the very least equal to the Zentraedi and the masters. The alterations I use actually make it more appropriate for the setting.

[Marcethus]

Then in your game run it differently. But the ranges were screwed up from the moment they wrote the Phase dimension book. The tech level of Phase World is at the very least equal to the Zentraedi and the masters. The alterations I use actually make it more appropriate for the setting.

4 million miles for a missile seems a bit extreme no matter what the tech level. I do agree that ranges on most energy weapons in PW are a bit short but missile range of 4 million miles is way to much.

[Dr. Doom III]

4 million miles for a missile seems a bit extreme no matter what the tech level. I do agree that ranges on most energy weapons in PW are a bit short but missile range of 4 million miles is way to much.

Why?
It's not like then need extra fuel. It is so space once you get your initial thrust all you need is fuel enough for minor adjustments. It shouldn’t be to hard to get a targeting computer that can handle that range with that high a tech.

[Esckey]

We have probes that have gone more then a 4 billion miles, why not a missile? But thats not the point we're talking bout going by the book, if we aren't then I might aswell say the Zentraedi wins cause they are all secret Cosmo-knights

[Qev]

But as I said earlier Qev, I use Kitsune's adjusted weapon ranges for my Three Galaxies ships. That evens the score as far as range goes. I'm never going to consent to using the ones in the book, especially considering how advanced they are supposed to be. So in my games expect that Protector BB to be able to hit you at over 150,000 miles with it's main weapons and it's missiles can reach out and touch you at 4,000,000 miles.

To be fair, you'd have to apply those changes to the Zentradi missile weapons, as well; their energy weapons are already poking things out to 200000 miles. It is kind of silly that, even in the Robotech books, they gave the Zentradi starship energy weapons enormous ranges, and then also armed them with missiles identical to those carried by fighters.

Still, the fact that even their small capital ships each have a Macross Cannon-equivalent is going to be a problem for the 3G side. The Zentradi would certainly need a Robotech Factory to make a real go of it, though I daresay five million ships even without repair or replacement would make a mess of the neighborhood.

You know, I'd wonder that protoculture-driven space fold wouldn't work better in the ley line-rich Three Galaxies, considering it's being driven by something that by all rights ought to have enormous amounts of PPE...

[ZINO]

They aren't the Intruders. Their tech isn't quite up too the Intruders.

Ha bet you didn't see that coming ,if they have so c an the the big bad zen's

[taalismn]

Still, the fact that even their small capital ships each have a Macross Cannon-equivalent is going to be a problem for the 3G side. The Zentradi would certainly need a Robotech Factory to make a real go of it, though I daresay five million ships even without repair or replacement would make a mess of the neighborhood.

You know, I'd wonder that protoculture-driven space fold wouldn't work better in the ley line-rich Three Galaxies, considering it's being driven by something that by all rights ought to have enormous amounts of PPE...

Depends who you ask..some folks favor Protoculture/Flower of Life as the antithesis of magic/PPE, while others see it as a PPE-rich power source, effectively making Robotechnology a form of Technowizardry....
If the latter, then I'm trotting out Zentraedi combat mages and TW mecha...

[Aramanthus]

Actually Zino I did. Just didn't really care about their version which is tech oriented. I'll stick to those rules on Proto culture fold systems being very likely to malfunction. I don't think well get a concensus on this one.

[ZINO]

Actually Zino I did. Just didn't really care about their version which is tech oriented. I'll stick to those rules on Proto culture fold systems being very likely to malfunction. I don't think well get a concensus on this one.

ok

[glitterboy2098]

in my phaseworld technical manual, i postulate that the reason robotech fold drives tend to malfunction and leave you in the wrong spot is tied ot the extensive use of contra-gravitic drive.

basically, robotech fold drives aren't the "jump" style drives, but more of a hyperspace system. (as seen in the show) so what i postulate is that what they do is exploit how our three dimensional reality is all twisted and "folded" in on itself when the other higher dimensions are included. the ship generates a fled that lets it translate to this higher dimensional state, which lets it travel "through' the folded 3D space along the shortest multi-dimensional route.

to use an analogy, if space is a sheet of paper, robotech fold drives don't fold the paper to work, they exploit the fact the paper is already crumpled up and you just need to "burrow" through to get anywhere.

what contra-gravitic drive does is distort this space. contra-gravitic drive bends space around itself to generate it's motive force in STl and the FTL bubble in FTL mode. with so many cultures all using contra-gravitic drive, the shape of space at the multi-dimensional level is constantly undergoing minute changes.

the RT fold drive ship plots it's course based on the shape of multi-dimensional space when it starts, but during the trip it's destination will have moved in multi-dimensional space as a result of accumulative warping of space by contra-gravitic drive use. so when it leaves the multi-dimensional state, it emerges in the wrong spot. sometimes close to the original destination, sometimes very far away.


for the intruders, you can assume either a better drive able to adjust for changing shape of space on the fly, or assume it's a "jump" type drive (which certainly fits with thel imited distances it can cover per use) actively altering the shape of space to leap from place to place.

[Aramanthus]

That is a very interesting reason for the Robotech system not to function properly in the Phase Wrold setting.

[KLM]

in my phaseworld technical manual, i postulate that the reason robotech fold drives tend to malfunction and leave you in the wrong spot is tied ot the extensive use of contra-gravitic drive.
(...)
for the intruders, you can assume either a better drive able to adjust for changing shape of space on the fly, or assume it's a "jump" type drive (which certainly fits with thel imited distances it can cover per use) actively altering the shape of space to leap from place to place.

As a side note, from what we know about the Intruders, they might suffer horrible losses due
to malfuntioning drives and noone knows it.

Even the Intruders might think that this is the work of the natives - which would explain their
fury for a degree.

-----------------
As for Zentraedi "destroy all" canons: frankly, this would mean that a captured Zentraedi ship
(Warlock Marines and a bit of phase tech will do the trick), which is "naked" against Telemechanics
will leak out the location of the Robotech factory, and then incinerate it with the macro cannon.

Also, Macro cannons (or whatever) are ENERGY WEAPONS. How embarrassing to see a lone
Shadow Bolt fighter survive it, without even a sratch to the paint.

----------------
As another issue: 3G ships are just too slow and have ridicoulus weapon ranges.

On the other hand, Zentraedi macro canons supposed to destroy "everything" - but again,
the particle beam rifle from Mechanoids is supposed to do the same. Also, we have seen
massive bombardment from those canons - showing that they do have a "damage limit".

So, it is just poor game mechanics.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

As for the extremely slow speed of the starships of Phase world. All I have to say is use one of these two sets of house rules.

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-Rules/Revised_Starship_Rules.htm

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-Rules/Revised_Starship_Rules_Inertia-less.htm

Makes a lot more sense!

[kdyal]

Weapon ranges are irrelevant. Ship speeds, protoculture, fold drives, none of that matters. The Zentraedi wouldn't last FIVE MINUTES against a Noro psychic and his Empathic Transmission.
"Today, giants, you will feel the raw, limitless power of my FRIENDSHIP!" And the CCW wins again, gaining a new and powerful ally against the Kreeghor savages.
Sorry, but if Robotech proves ANYTHING, it's that the Zennies are seriously starved for affection. Give the big dweebs a hug, and you dang near own them.

That says it all. The Zens wouldn't last any length of time against any 3G power not based entirely on tech. Psychics and phase tech would make a debacle out of any invasion attempt. And let's not even get into the havoc that the UWW would bring...

[The Beast]

Also don't forget the Lynn Minmie Defense. The 3 Gs could easily whip up an equivelent or better defense program.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

It's stated that Fold Drives don't work properly in the Three Galaxies.

Three Galaxies for the win.

~ Josh

[drewkitty ~..~]

Weapon ranges are irrelevant. Ship speeds, protoculture, fold drives, none of that matters. The Zentraedi wouldn't last FIVE MINUTES against a Noro psychic and his Empathic Transmission.
"Today, giants, you will feel the raw, limitless power of my FRIENDSHIP!" And the CCW wins again, gaining a new and powerful ally against the Kreeghor savages.
Sorry, but if Robotech proves ANYTHING, it's that the Zennies are seriously starved for affection. Give the big dweebs a hug, and you dang near own them.

... ranges do matter, if the noro does not get in range then he can have no effect.

Also don't forget the Lynn Minmie Defense. The 3 Gs could easily whip up an equivelent or better defense program.

They would have to have experienc with the zentradie before they stumble on that.
If they are zents that have encountered miconiens before they might of developed a defence for it...
*turns the audio on the comm off* or *turns the comm off*

[Aramanthus]

That is a brilliant way of beating them. Just out of curiousity. What is the range of Astral Projection? I don't remember off the top of my mind.

[Cybermancer]

It's not so much the range as it is the speed. Astral travel in our plane is not like some sort of psionic teleport. Time is spent travelling. Palladium has put the rate of speed for astral travellers at mach one (or 660mph by Palladium standards). So to cross a distance of 200,000 miles is going to take 303 hours or about 12 and a half days.

By that time, the battle is going to be long over.

[Aramanthus]

LOL I can see that could be quite a problem. I think I'd probably use Kitsune's rules for Starship travel.

[Cybermancer]

It's not so much the range as it is the speed. Astral travel in our plane is not like some sort of psionic teleport. Time is spent travelling. Palladium has put the rate of speed for astral travellers at mach one (or 660mph by Palladium standards). So to cross a distance of 200,000 miles is going to take 303 hours or about 12 and a half days.

By that time, the battle is going to be long over.

Only if you travel in real space. I think you could get there faster in the Astral Plane, particularly if you use the Astral Travel rules in Nightbane: Between the Shadows. (I believe, but I no longer have that book.)

Astral travellers going through the astral plane itself face the possibility of getting lost or being confronted with potentially hostile astral travellers and creatures. Or even getting completely sidetracked (unintentionally) by astral kingdoms.

Even if they manage to overcome these difficulties, they will only have five minutes per level to do anything.

It's certainly not an auto-win button.