Dodging Laser fire?

[runebeo]

In our game if were fired at and the attacker roll is higher than 6 we usually just take the damage instead of using up one of our attacks to try to dodge. Does anyone else have a house rule like this?

[Elthbert]

No. Why would you? Dodging is a very important pat of Rifts combat.... Also it would completlly screw Juicers.

[Dr. Doom III]

No.

You do that then you're just playing D&D with a really crappy AC.

[runebeo]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

that really screws juicers, I am of the opinion that the juicer 'auto-dodge' is at least in part, to represent the fact that they just don't stand still long enough for you to draw a bead on, and, being juicers, can fire while bouncing round like the tazmanian devil.

Of coarse a character with automatic dodge is always going to roll it don't cost him an action. You have to roll a dodge if you can't afford to take the damage, it does make combat go faster and our group does use the minus 10 rule, but we use a lot house rules for cover as well.

[Dr. Doom III]

I don't care who it screws. It's a weapon firing a coherent beam of light designed to melt through tank armor. A juicer's advantage comes from being the one who should've fired first with a heavily bonused initiative roll.

And going first is all that matters in a fight that just boils down to two people hitting each other until one falls down. Oh that and who's got the better armor.

[Dr. Doom III]

I don't care who it screws. It's a weapon firing a coherent beam of light designed to melt through tank armor. A juicer's advantage comes from being the one who should've fired first with a heavily bonused initiative roll.

And going first is all that matters in a fight that just boils down to two people hitting each other until one falls down. Oh that and who's got the better armor.

Pretty much.

Sounds fun.

[Crazy Lou]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

Wait then... Do you allow people to try to dodge rail gun burst fire? Do you allow people to try to dodge ramjet rounds? Do you even allow people to try to dodge normal gunfire? Because your rationale is completely applicable to pretty much any type of fire arm, energy or otherwise.

If you don't acknowledge the fact that diving away from where someone is about to shoot you will improve your odds of survival, then how do you explain the proven usefulness, in real life, of the tactic of doing exactly that then maintaining a crouched position as you run away from a shooter at an angle? It is necessary to start moving away from the intended target area for this to work. It doesn't really matter whether the thing being fired at you moves at 1000 ft/sec or 186,000 miles/sec. Both are rates of lateral movement so far above human, even superhuman, such as a juicer, capability that by your reasoning anyone who knows anything about firing a gun should virtually NEVER miss!

If you continue this to the realm of Rifts, which is really at the heart of this discussion, then any time a character with the proper weapon proficiency fires his gun, he should have, just at first level, a BARE MINIMUM of a 60% chance of hitting his target? That's absurdly high. Extremely unreasonable.

[Natasha]

Guns are dangerous.

And deadly.

Better get a helmet.....

[sHaka]

I stick to canon.

Something as boring as real world physics shouldn't get in the way of having a good time. My players can dodge laser (et al) fire.

[Library Ogre]

While I don't agree with Alejandro on not allow dodges against lasers (evasive maneuvers and the like counting as a dodge against aim), I do agree that getting shot with a laser is sub-optimal and one is highly suggested to avoid it. That's why, even with MDC combat, I like

COVER.

COVER is a neat new invention from the creators of GROUND and TREE. By properly using COVER, you reduce the chance that the laser will cut your left leg off with a nanosecond beam the size of a pencil. Some varieties of COVER even include GUN STABILIZERS, at no extra charge! Consult your local dealer of post-apocalyptic debris, and be sure to mention COVER by name!

[Crazy Lou]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

Wait then... Do you allow people to try to dodge rail gun burst fire? Do you allow people to try to dodge ramjet rounds? Do you even allow people to try to dodge normal gunfire? Because your rationale is completely applicable to pretty much any type of fire arm, energy or otherwise.

If you don't acknowledge the fact that diving away from where someone is about to shoot you will improve your odds of survival, then how do you explain the proven usefulness, in real life, of the tactic of doing exactly that then maintaining a crouched position as you run away from a shooter at an angle? It is necessary to start moving away from the intended target area for this to work. It doesn't really matter whether the thing being fired at you moves at 1000 ft/sec or 186,000 miles/sec. Both are rates of lateral movement so far above human, even superhuman, such as a juicer, capability that by your reasoning anyone who knows anything about firing a gun should virtually NEVER miss!

If you continue this to the realm of Rifts, which is really at the heart of this discussion, then any time a character with the proper weapon proficiency fires his gun, he should have, just at first level, a BARE MINIMUM of a 60% chance of hitting his target? That's absurdly high. Extremely unreasonable.

If it's got recoil you can try to dodge it but if you're firing a weapon that is going to instantly hit when you pull the trigger then no, no dodge.

It's really just that simple. Lasers have no recoil, nothing to hamper them, nothing to interfere. If the person makes his strike roll then that's it, end of story the target gets hit. Considering there are no man-portable laser rifles that are powerful enough to shoot through a modern day tank out there on the market, I'm REALLY getting a chuckle out of people trying to bring modern day weapons & ballistics into the scenario as absolutely no weapon we have today is equal at all to the laser weapons in Rifts. As there is no comparison to draw to, we're left with a simple setup from Siembieda himself: Lasers have no sound, instantly hit what you aim them at, and you can't see them. It's not me bringing too much reality into a game it's most of you leaving too much out.....

Factor in what a laser weapon can do and how I'm not applying physics to such an insane degree beyond "if you aim right, you hit" I'm honestly just amazed at such a tremendous backlash.

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

Ok. I'm not entirely sure you caught my point... I am well aware of the fact that we do not have any weapons in real life which are anything like those laser rifles described in Rifts. However, I am making a comparison here and saying that the laser rifles are superior. I acknowledge that fact and I will address it further here.

When someone goes to dodge gunfire in the context of the game, as well as in real life, they ARE NOT TRYING TO DODGE BULLETS. I apologise for the all caps, but this is a key part of my point here, and I want that understood. I recognize that no human can dodge a bullet. As such, the question of whether a human can dodge a laser beam is moot. I'm not arguing about that. So your insistence on instantaneous connection between shooter and target is not part of this either. The idea of dodging boils down to this: when a person is attempting to shoot you, they ARE NOT trying to hit wherever the hell you are about to try to jump. They're shooting (if they're trained and being efficient and professional) at your center of mass, which is the easiest target to hit, as it's the slowest to move and the largest target. HOWEVER, you, as the potential victim, do not want to be shot. So you try to get out of the way. For this to be possible, you must know the opponent is about to shoot at you, and you must try to get out of the way (AKA Dodge) before the assailant FINISHES TAKING AIM AND PULLS THE TRIGGER. Again, caps are because this is an important point. Therefore, the difference in the time it takes for the energy or bullet, as the case may be, to reach the intended target area is unimportant. Which is why the comparison to modern guns IS applicable. Because unless somehow you have a gun that's telepathically connected to you and doesn't have to reposition itself to aim, the issue of the time that takes is still relevent, and it is from where the idea of having time to dodge is derrived.

While recoil, or lack thereof, would have some impact on the differences, that has more of a bearing on the accuracy of the shooter, not on the timing possible for a victim to move before the attacker opens fire. This is not, however, significantly reflected in the bonuses comparing MD guns and rail guns (crap loads of recoil) to laser rifles (generally no bonuses or maybe a +1 regardless of the weapon type, and mostly resulting due to how the writer was feeling at the time -- also note that while the +1 is usually only for the rifles, it's almost always attributed to superior scopes or targeting capabilities, not lack of recoil). Therefore I would venture to say that your note about recoil isn't that useful to your assertions on the matter of dodging gunfire/lasers. I would also note that this is a question in which you ARE "applying physics to such an insane degree beyond 'if you aim right, you hit.' " You just didn't make a very detailed or particularly relevent connection to physics.

[laser rifles] instantly hit what you aim them at

Yes, indeed they do that, but there is a requirement for that to occur. The target has to be where the gun was aimed. If they're moving, and are no longer where the attacker was pointing his very accurate rifle by the time the trigger is pulled, then the laser hits nothing but a lot of air and then whatever was behind his target. Better try to take another shot and hope that one hits...

The issue (and I may be beating a dead horse here, but I want my point to be very clear and to leave no room for misunderstanding or oversight) is that you don't see the timing in the way which accounts for why dodging gunfire and lasers is covered in the rules. It seems this is because you have chosen not to see the timing. However, the sequence goes something like this: There are two people (let's keep this simple afterall). One has a laser rifle, and he is the attacker. The other is some poor schmoe at whom the attacker is busting (laser) caps. This second man is the defendent. I will call the Attacker "A" and the Defendent "D."

A decides to shoot at D. He begins to position his rifle at D's center of mass like he was trained (the GM has announced that A is going to try to shoot poor D and asks what D does about this situation). D is scared out of his mind that A want to kill him, so he starts his movement to dive off to his right (his player decided to dodge the declared attack on his character). Now the strike roll with bonuses is rolled by the GM for A. 9 is rolled on a D20 and gets a +2 bonus for a total of 11 to strike. D is very concerned about this and rolls his dodge. A 19 is rolled (lucky b******) and he has a +4 to dodge because he has a high PP and is trained in Martial Arts. We'll use the old -10 rule to dodge just for simplicity's sake. The total dodge roll was 19+4-10=13. This is very luckly. D wins the roll and the action is resolved. D has managed to dive early enough to save his sorry hide this action, while A was a bit too late aiming and pulling his trigger to get his man.

This is pretty much how it is supposed to work.

Lastly, I would like to requote something for specific address:

If the person makes his strike roll then that's it, end of story the target gets hit.

Ok, from the very heart of my role-playing game enthusiasm, I am grievously hurt by this. The idea is to create a GAME which parallels and simulates real life, but with a story. Now there are rules and there is consideration of balance (yes, even in Rifts -- remember the suggested retroactive modifications to the South America equipment in the GMG? yeah, that's because there was a balance concern.). Defenders win ties because that's more fair and tends to give a slightly more epic edge to the action. There are saving throws against magic for a reason. That's because it would UNFAIR for a mage to just be allowed to totally screw over anybody who he manages to hit with a first spell. Same with Psionics -- how FAIR would it be if some random NPC Mind Melter decided he would possess your 1st level character and then start a 1 vs. 20 fight against a bunch of high level gangsters, or jump him off a cliff, just because that NPC was a diabolic nut job? How fair would it be for a Miscreant PC Mind melter to do the same to some big mobster boss? How much fun would that be? None at all. That's why the rules for dodging gunfire (and yes, even lasers) exist. Because the idea that if you can roll over an 8 on a D20 (and like that's hard, especially with sniper, and sharpshooting, and wp, and H2H:Assassin bonuses), you can hit any opponent who's unlucky enough to be your target is totally UNFAIR.

Dodging is the "save throw" against being shot. To be fair, and because it is possible in real life, that is why it is incorporated into the game.


Finally, because it's not quite on the same topic, but very closely related, I will address your question about explosives. Here goes:

Yes, I allow attempts at dodging explosions, and I'll explain (briefly) why. The concept is very much the same as my reasoning on timing above with the lasers/gunfire. The dodge attemt begins as the "grenade-lobber-attacker" is pulling the pin, aiming, in the motion of throwing, and while the grenade is flying through the air. The dodge begins at the beginning of these actions, and if the defender is lucky enough to roll high enough to dodge away from the grenade, he's escaped the blast. Unfortunately there are no definitive, canon modifiers addressing the issue of escaping AoE attacks of variable radius, except where there is specific address in descriptions, such as individual spells. Thus, a successful dodge roll against the strike roll, ignoring modifiers entirely (and now we're entering the realm of house rules because canon is silent on this subject, as I've noted, but entirely UNLIKE dodging laser fire in that regard), as successful dodge will get you away from the center of the radius, sufficiently that you take 1/2 damage from the blast. Now the radius of the blast matters, as does your SPD (if you want to be that picky about it, I generally don't), and the house ruled modifiers for the size of the explosion. If the explosion is all plasma, has a 100 foot radius, and was thrown by an attacker 10 feet away because he's immune to plasma, you're screwed, because unless you can teleport, you can't move that far that fast. But if it's a little plasma grenade with a 6 foot blast radius and thrown by an opponent a more normal distance away for the use of explosives, then you now have a good chance of complete escape.

[Crazy Lou]

While I don't agree with Alejandro on not allow dodges against lasers (evasive maneuvers and the like counting as a dodge against aim), I do agree that getting shot with a laser is sub-optimal and one is highly suggested to avoid it. That's why, even with MDC combat, I like

COVER.

COVER is a neat new invention from the creators of GROUND and TREE. By properly using COVER, you reduce the chance that the laser will cut your left leg off with a nanosecond beam the size of a pencil. Some varieties of COVER even include GUN STABILIZERS, at no extra charge! Consult your local dealer of post-apocalyptic debris, and be sure to mention COVER by name!

Also very true, and I like your phrasing. I didn't really feel like getting into that in my response though, so thanks for mentioning that bit too.

[runebeo]

I don't care who it screws. It's a weapon firing a coherent beam of light designed to melt through tank armor. A juicer's advantage comes from being the one who should've fired first with a heavily bonused initiative roll.

And going first is all that matters in a fight that just boils down to two people hitting each other until one falls down. Oh that and who's got the better armor.

Pretty much.

Sounds fun.

It's amazing how fun a game can be without a rules lawyer...then again, you wouldn't know. Though it is amusing that you decided that every game is just people standing there shooting at each other just because I don't allow dodges on laser weapons. That aside though, your comments don't surprise me.

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

Wait then... Do you allow people to try to dodge rail gun burst fire? Do you allow people to try to dodge ramjet rounds? Do you even allow people to try to dodge normal gunfire? Because your rationale is completely applicable to pretty much any type of fire arm, energy or otherwise.

If you don't acknowledge the fact that diving away from where someone is about to shoot you will improve your odds of survival, then how do you explain the proven usefulness, in real life, of the tactic of doing exactly that then maintaining a crouched position as you run away from a shooter at an angle? It is necessary to start moving away from the intended target area for this to work. It doesn't really matter whether the thing being fired at you moves at 1000 ft/sec or 186,000 miles/sec. Both are rates of lateral movement so far above human, even superhuman, such as a juicer, capability that by your reasoning anyone who knows anything about firing a gun should virtually NEVER miss!

If you continue this to the realm of Rifts, which is really at the heart of this discussion, then any time a character with the proper weapon proficiency fires his gun, he should have, just at first level, a BARE MINIMUM of a 60% chance of hitting his target? That's absurdly high. Extremely unreasonable.

If it's got recoil you can try to dodge it but if you're firing a weapon that is going to instantly hit when you pull the trigger then no, no dodge.

It's really just that simple. Lasers have no recoil, nothing to hamper them, nothing to interfere. If the person makes his strike roll then that's it, end of story the target gets hit. Considering there are no man-portable laser rifles that are powerful enough to shoot through a modern day tank out there on the market, I'm REALLY getting a chuckle out of people trying to bring modern day weapons & ballistics into the scenario as absolutely no weapon we have today is equal at all to the laser weapons in Rifts. As there is no comparison to draw to, we're left with a simple setup from Siembieda himself: Lasers have no sound, instantly hit what you aim them at, and you can't see them. It's not me bringing too much reality into a game it's most of you leaving too much out.

That is a game, I would never play. In fact we have never even followed the whole -10 crap rules from the GMG. Hello, if you want to bring real world things into the game, then why don't you cut dwn all of the ranges for rifles down to 1000 ft, considering that without a scope its very hard to hit a stationary man sized target at over that range with an M-16, (Sharpshooter US Army Retired).

Oh and for pistols your joking right, hitting anything moving with a pistol at over 50 yards is an exercise in futility.

I believe that the RUE's rules about a moving target are about as far as I am willing to push realism.

You want to be picky about what you let in your games, be my guest. No one invited you to play in mine anyway.

Some of us can hit man sized targets without a scope with an M-16 from 1500 feet away without even being infantry (I know I could when I was in the service) and that's not even including snipers. Considering that Sniping is a skill that nearly everyone takes when they have a gun using character, and the skill describes what it does beyond just a bonus, then it sure seems like there are a whole lot of characters out there able to easily outdo you on the rifle. Factor in what a laser weapon can do and how I'm not applying physics to such an insane degree beyond "if you aim right, you hit" I'm honestly just amazed at such a tremendous backlash.

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

We allow a dodge against explosive with only the characters p.p. bonus only or automatic dodge bonus but no other dodge bonuses, but only if the character is aware of the grenade if he is not then rolls a dodge with no bonuses what soever. With grenades their always a chance of a bad throw especial if the thrower is under fire. I do see your point thou.

[Crazy Lou]

While I applaud your dissertation in explaining to me why you feel they should be treated otherwise, each example you gave of how it should not be considered dodging so much as not being where the barrel's pointing you have consistently missed my point that you cannot escape the speed of light. That's all there is to it. I have never once said it's an auto hit and I even explained that I require a higher hit roll. However, I do not once, even for a second, believe that a weapon that causes no recoil, has no wait time between trigger pull & hit, nor need to lead a target is going to miss once the sight has been placed over the target and the trigger has been pulled. Some weapons can be dealt with as you've described but not lasers.

Yes, I allow attempts at dodging explosions

That's all I needed to know.

I'm somewhat confused, but you seem to be upholding your side with "this is what I think. Light is too fast for your explanation to be appropriate."

About the lack of need to lead a target: actually, if the target is dodging, and moving, which is likely to be the case when you're shooting at him, then for you to continue hitting him, you will need to change the direction in which you point your gun. This is aiming. If the target is generally moving in one direction, then you are aiming at the target, but the aim is "dynamic," for lack of a better word. That is to say that while your target moves, you have to move your gun too, and in the direction your target is going. While lasers don't need to "lead" the way you're using the word, you still have to keep the gun pointed perfectly on the target as he is moving. However, your target is unlikely to just be moving at a constant speed and in a single direction perfectly perpendicular to your line of sight (which would be in a circle around you by the way, so technically not a single direction, but you get the point). Thus, while the laser shot will go exactly where you are pointing the gun at effectively the very instant you complete the trigger pull, your character might not happen to be a PERFECT, FLAWLESS, shot with GOD-LIKE targeting abilities. Your strike roll and the character's dodge roll come in to play here. As I explained in my "timing" scenario. While your character might be successful at putting his shot exactly where the target WOULD HAVE BEEN if he had continued his the same path as he was on in the very brief moment between the thought to pull the trigger and the competion of that action (ie he made his strike roll over , the target might not have continued precisely in that anticipated path (ie he got a high enough dodge roll with bonuses to beat that strike roll) and as such, the shot missed. While the target didn't know exactly where the shot was going to be, he moved, hoping that he would not be hit, and he wasn't. Thus, his dodge attempt was successful.

Perhaps the issue lies at the question of the perceived nature of "striking" and "dodging" (and parrying for that matter, but that's not really relevent here). While it is easiest to think of striking and dodging in melee terms, where the more fundamental ideas of the actions aren't so pertinent, in that a "strike roll" is the attempt to swing and hit a certain part of the opponent, and a "dodge roll" is the attempt of the target to see where that swing is going and move accordingly so as to avoid the strike, this isn't ever defined as how things are. It's just the easiest way to think about it. It might be more appropriate to say that strikes are an attempt to hit a part of an opponent where he is at the moment of initiating the strike, and dodges are attempts by the target to not be wherever it is that the opponent is intending that strike to be. An appropriate analogy escapes me now, but I think my explanation is clear enough. This way of looking at strikes and dodges logically and very easily explains the rules for dodging gunfire and lasers, as well as in melee combat, arrows, thrown objects, grabs, and any other sort of attack which can be dodged as defined in canon. While you are saying "light is too fast for someone to move away once they're in the sights, the problem again is that while the shooter's eyes recognize that the target is in the sights, there is a delay in actually pulling that trigger. This is an undeniable fact. Another undeniable fact is that if there is motion while this delay of trigger-pulling is occuring, then there is a possibility that the target will no longer be in the sights when the trigger is pulled.

If you are saying that an opponent can't try to dodge an attack until the attack is already complete, then I entirely agree, but that's not at all the timing of how combat in Rifts works. Otherwise dodges wouldn't exist as a concept. While it's all good and fine to say, "once the sight has been placed over the target and the trigger has been pulled" that's not the point at which a defender is allowed a chance to dodge. The dodge starts before the attacker is even done aiming (read BEFORE the "sight has been placed over the target"). Thats why there's a difference between an aimed shot and a not aimed shot. And that's why you're allowed to attempt to dodge. And the reason there's huge dodge penalty is because the amount of time you have to try to dodge is so very small.

[Elthbert]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

Lasers do move at the speed of light, butthe human finger doesn't, as long as the target is moving and is moving erraticly then there is a real chance for a miss. Dodging represents the erratic evasive actions of a target. Even a flat out sprint in a straight line could be enough to cause someone to miss with a laser, so long as the didn't lead properly, the light moves virtually instantly, the trigger, and switches inside do not, it's really fast, but not instant.

[Elthbert]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

that really screws juicers, I am of the opinion that the juicer 'auto-dodge' is at least in part, to represent the fact that they just don't stand still long enough for you to draw a bead on, and, being juicers, can fire while bouncing round like the tazmanian devil.

You and I agree whole heartedly on this one.

[dark brandon]

Some of us can hit man sized targets without a scope with an M-16 from 1500 feet away without even being infantry (I know I could when I was in the service) and that's not even including snipers. Considering that Sniping is a skill that nearly everyone takes when they have a gun using character, and the skill describes what it does beyond just a bonus, then it sure seems like there are a whole lot of characters out there able to easily outdo you on the rifle. Factor in what a laser weapon can do and how I'm not applying physics to such an insane degree beyond "if you aim right, you hit" I'm honestly just amazed at such a tremendous backlash.

I'm not sure how well most people can hit a man-sized target more than 50 ft way, let alone 1500 ft away. I'm not an expert or anything...but IIRC, are there like a bajillion bullets used in the army, yet only like one in 10,000 actually hit someone?

Not saying I'm for/against your line of thinking, but FYI, if I was in your game, I'd at least hope the minimum roll to hit would be higher than an 8. Maybe a 15 or 16 with bonuses, especially if you don't allow dodge.

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

Yes. Joe throws granade, if you have a dodge, you can dodge out of the way. Using mini's, we've kinda rigged it that you can move a certain distance if you use a dodge. Juicer dodge is like matrix dodge. Regular dodge is like Max Pain bullet time dodge. Can't auto-dodge a grenade or any blast area weapon unless they are aiming for you (but if they are aiming for the ground below you...)

[Dr. Doom III]

It's amazing how fun a game can be without a rules lawyer...then again, you wouldn't know. Though it is amusing that you decided that every game is just people standing there shooting at each other just because I don't allow dodges on laser weapons. That aside though, your comments don't surprise me.

I know how fun that is because we don't have any rules lawyers.
I didn't decide that. You told me.

[Talavar]

Why are lasers special in all of this? Human reaction time isn't great enough to discern the vast speed difference between light, and other very very fast things - like ramjets, rail guns, other energy weapons, etc. To our fleshy sensory processing systems they're all off the chart and unmeasurably fast. Recoil should in no way help someone dodge; it might make the shooter miss with his next shot though.

But I think lasers are just as dodgeable as other weapon types. Have a friend try to hit you with a laser pointer by turning it on and off (rather than just waving it around constantly on) while you try to dodge their aim. Go play laser tag and do the same thing. The speed of the laser over other modern weapon types is irrelevant; what isn't is the reaction time of the shooter, and that's what you're dodging.

As to explosives, sure you can dodge them if you see them coming. You're not beating the speed of the blast wave, you're clearing the blast radius while you see the missile or grenade incoming. People can do this.

[Dr. Doom III]

I know how fun that is because we don't have any rules lawyers.
I didn't decide that. You told me.

Says one of, if not the biggest, rules lawyer on the board.

The biggest and I can compartmentalize too.

[Rallan]

With laser weapons I don't allow dodges. None at all. These are weapons that fire at the speed of light...doesn't matter if you're claiming you're "just dodging where the shooter's aiming" of if you're actually trying to dodge the beam. I increase the difficulty to hit but a weapon like that is entirely reliant on the shooter, not the target.

No, I don't use the -10 rule either.

So a target that's moving erratically is as easy to hit as a target that's standing there waiting for it? This will come as news to clay pigeon shooters and recreational hunters the world over

[Rallan]

Of coarse a character with automatic dodge is always going to roll it don't cost him an action. You have to roll a dodge if you can't afford to take the damage, it does make combat go faster and our group does use the minus 10 rule, but we use a lot house rules for cover as well.

I never liked the -10 dodge rule much myself, since it makes dodging redundant for everyone except Juicers. With -10 to dodge and no bonuses you need to roll at least a 14 to dodge anything else, and only a natural 20 will save you if the other guy's attack roll was a 10 or higher (which basically means that for roughly two thirds of all succesful enemy attacks, nothing but a natural 20 will do). Basically it means that if you don't have autododge, your options are to definitely get hit and then be able to counterattack, or almost definitely get hit and then have zero chance of returning fire. And even if you do have autododge, it basically means that you'll be able to dodge about every third incoming attack. Which basically encourages a style of play where everyone just stands their ground, shrugs off incoming fire, and hopes the other guy runs out of MDC first, because the moment you start dodging you're just throwing actions away.

And to make matters even sillier, the -10 dodge rule means that a guy with a rune weapon trying to parry laser beams with a sword is now harder for a sniper with an energy weapon to hit than a guy who's ducking and weaving and trying to make himself a difficult target.

[Rallan]

That is a game, I would never play. In fact we have never even followed the whole -10 crap rules from the GMG. Hello, if you want to bring real world things into the game, then why don't you cut dwn all of the ranges for rifles down to 1000 ft, considering that without a scope its very hard to hit a stationary man sized target at over that range with an M-16, (Sharpshooter US Army Retired).

Oh and for pistols your joking right, hitting anything moving with a pistol at over 50 yards is an exercise in futility.

Actually that range limit rule sounds like a good idea. Although in a game with energy weapons your fifty yard thing wouldn't really apply to pistols. If you're shooting coherent beams of light powerful enough to punch clean through both sides of a tank five hundred feet away in an instant, the weapon's effective range is damn well going to be line of sight and beyond. You should be able to bolt a Wilks laser pistol to a metal bar, mount it on a tripod, and reliably hit targets on the horizon as long as you've got a properly lined up scope. THe only real limitation should be how easy it is to hold the weapon stable and keep it pointed on target long enough to line up a shot (which is where the difference between rifles and pistols will really come into play).

And meanwhile as you said, without a scope you should have buckley's chance of hitting something even at relatively close distances like 1000ft, even with weapons listed as having effective ranges of four or six thousand feet.

[Rallan]

While I don't agree with Alejandro on not allow dodges against lasers (evasive maneuvers and the like counting as a dodge against aim), I do agree that getting shot with a laser is sub-optimal and one is highly suggested to avoid it. That's why, even with MDC combat, I like

COVER.

COVER is a neat new invention from the creators of GROUND and TREE. By properly using COVER, you reduce the chance that the laser will cut your left leg off with a nanosecond beam the size of a pencil. Some varieties of COVER even include GUN STABILIZERS, at no extra charge! Consult your local dealer of post-apocalyptic debris, and be sure to mention COVER by name!

Disclaimer: COVER should be considered "soft" unless labelled otherwise. Consult instruction manual before using COVER. The Landscape Company take no responsibility for COVER that is not laser-proof. For further advice on COVER, consult your local Landscape dealer.

[ZorValachan]

I actually understand what Alejandro is saying and his comment that to get mad at him for making no dodges (a house rule) then submitting your own is contrary, is a quite valid statement.

While the laser doesn't need to be 'led', your hand still has to move. This is reflected in the -1 to Strike rule (see below)

As Mark Hall stated, Cover saves the day. Moving behind cover will effectively make it so that you will actually not be hit. Dropping to the ground is this, jumping behind a tree or vehicle is this. The attacker loses sight of the target and the cover (not the defender) is hit. This is why shields can be used for cover, but not to parry ranged attacks.

Jumping around in plain sight, moving zig-zag, running diagonal, etc. is 'proactive' and not a dodge or dodging. And guess what? there is already a rule for this; -1 to strike. R:UE pg 361. Shooting a moving target.

Dodging is not proactive, it is reactive. He strikes, you dodge. The attacker rolls, THEN you roll. Be it a bullet, or laser, dodging fire is nigh impossible. People moving around are not dodging, they are being evasive.

Evasive maneuvering is that -1 to strike rule, not the dodge.

If Alejandro is adding even more difficulties than 8+ to hit and -1 to strike for moving, then he is just shifting the difficulty firmly on the attacker's shoulder.

As his comment " " to Mark Hall's cover post seems to show he approves of cover and its ruling, I do not see a major problem with his house rules. Are they what I use, no? but they are still valid in his reasoning.

[Rallan]

I'm not sure how well most people can hit a man-sized target more than 50 ft way, let alone 1500 ft away. I'm not an expert or anything...but IIRC, are there like a bajillion bullets used in the army, yet only like one in 10,000 actually hit someone?

Most of them are wasted for reasons that just aren't reflected in Palladium's game mechanics at all, not from guys trying to hit targets at long ranges. There's no penalty for shooting while under incoming fire or while trying to stay under cover. And since there's no penalty for that, there's no incentive whatsoever to lay down covering fire, spraying out a bunch of ammunition to keep the other side's heads down. There's no rule for firing off a few rounds because you're highly sprung when you're clearing a house room by room and expected that last staircase to have some baddies lurking in it.

If real life used Palladium rules, the accuracy and ammunition consumption rates in modern warfare insane. Squads with AK-47s or M-16s would be engaging from a couple of hundred metres away and wasting less than half their ammo on misses. Even gunners on helicopters spraying rice paddies with a machinegun could probably expect 10 or 15% of the rounds they fire to end up inside a person instead of in the mud.

[Lenwen]

Speed of a Light = 186,000 miles per second : Lasers are a highly focused beam of light ...

Dependent upon how focused that beam of light is .. it could reach half way across the Continental US in mear seconds ..

No way any character is going to dodge a "Bullet" that is travelling at 186,000 miles per second .. or basically ..
982,080,000 feet per second ...

1 Melee action = 6 seconds IIRC .. which means your dodge .. 1 melee action takes at LEAST 6 seconds to initiate an be finished with ..

5,892,480,000 ft .. that laser could reach (Again dependent upon its ability to stay focused) in the same amount of time it would take any character to even initiate a dodge ..

If your inside of 10ft .. by the time your brain responds to " say hi to bob" what ever thier shooting at is already shot .. with a gaping cauterized wound staring back atcha ..

Means ZERO chance to dodge ..

Thats how I play the Laser's ..

Even at Max range .. Lasers are basically REALLY tightly focused beams of light .. if thier max distance is 2000 ft .. and your opponant is shooting at you at Max distance ..

that super incredibly tighly highly focused beam of light .. is STILL travelling at 186,000 miles per second or .. 982+ million ft per second which logically dictates .. unless thier not aiming an mearly shooting wildly ..

Zero Dodge .

[Rallan]

Speed of a Light = 186,000 miles per second : Lasers are a highly focused beam of light ...

Dependent upon how focused that beam of light is .. it could reach half way across the Continental US in mear seconds ..

No way any character is going to dodge a "Bullet" that is travelling at 186,000 miles per second .. or basically ..
982,080,000 feet per second ...

Mere seconds huh? Dependent on how focused that beam of light is huh? You're ah, not exactly helping your credibility here.

Plus you're also arguing against a strawman. If you'd actually bothered to read the thread, you'll have noticed that nobody's claiming it's possible to dodge a beam of light that's already coming right for you. What they're arguing is that when it comes to lasers (and other energy weapons, and rail guns, and fire arms), the Dodging game mechanic isn't about literally trying to dodge the ray or projectile, it's about making yourself significantly harder to aim at.

Y'all may want to go back and read the thread before you post again. You also might want to look up the size of the United States and figure out how long it actually takes to cross at the speed of light

[Lenwen]

Speed of a Light = 186,000 miles per second : Lasers are a highly focused beam of light ...

Dependent upon how focused that beam of light is .. it could reach half way across the Continental US in mear seconds ..

No way any character is going to dodge a "Bullet" that is travelling at 186,000 miles per second .. or basically ..
982,080,000 feet per second ...

Mere seconds huh? Dependent on how focused that beam of light is huh? You're ah, not exactly helping your credibility here.

Plus you're also arguing against a strawman. If you'd actually bothered to read the thread, you'll have noticed that nobody's claiming it's possible to dodge a beam of light that's already coming right for you. What they're arguing is that when it comes to lasers (and other energy weapons, and rail guns, and fire arms), the Dodging game mechanic isn't about literally trying to dodge the ray or projectile, it's about making yourself significantly harder to aim at.

Y'all may want to go back and read the thread before you post again. You also might want to look up the size of the United States and figure out how long it actually takes to cross at the speed of light

I am talking about Dodging the actual beam itself or some one with a laser weapon pointed at you within 10 ft .. and aiming at you ..

btw .. google speed of light for me ..

Earth to the moon light takes 1.3 seconds to reach ..

Just .. a little FYI .. tah .

[Lenwen]

Len, he's mocking you because you said it would take light only a few seconds to get halfway across the Continental US while you pointed out already light goes 186,000 miles/sec and it's only 2583 miles from Miami to San Fransisco.

ahh gotcha ..

Dont matter .. there is logically absolutly no way my friend anyone or anything is EVER going to be able to dodge a laser ..

pointed at ya an thier aiming for ya heh .

I dont even give juicers that ability .. thier dead too if thier shot at with a laser from behind ..

regaurdless tho man Alejandro , I 100% completely agree with what you said heh .

Light takes .13 seconds go circle the earths equator .. thats crazyness haha

Thanks Al .

[Lenwen]

It seems that people who think thier should be a "dodge" attempt due to the whole bobbing and weaving and running away in various patters and what nots ..

I just took my paintball gun .. and my rottie outside ... in the back yard .. my yard is roughly an acre square .. my dog can move FASTER then any normal human ..

I attempted to shot the pooch ( sorry again Carbo ) with my paintball gun .. roughly 50 times ...

Out of those times ... I only had like 46ish pellets .. heh I musta nailed him at LEAST 98% of the time .. even with Carbo running at MAX speed away and trying to find cover ..

I'm no rocket scientest .. so please take this at face value ..

My Paintball gun ( my guess now folks ) no where NEAR the speed of a laser .. yet I was able to while running after carbo .. HIT him with nearly EVERY single pellet .. alotta them just glanced OFF carbo ..I seen them richoceting off him going bout 6-8ft in the air heh but the fact remains I hit him .. at LEAST 98% of the time .. I ended up hitting the ol Pine at the bottom of the hill a couple times as he ran around it an back twords the house heh .

Now If I am able to chase my dog with a Paintball gun an hit him at will with a pellet .. and only miss due to cover .. on at most 3 shots .. due to the ol pine ..

I do not believe .. for even an inkling .. that a Person running from some one with a Laser weapon .. has a snowballs shot in Dyval ... of "Dodging"

And I pose this question to you ..

Everyone says .. that its "Possible" to dodge the shooter's general area .. while running away in zigzag patterns .. if you know when he is going to shoot ..

Here is the question ..

If your running away with your back to the shooter .. How do you know when thier going to shoot an thusly .. Zig .. when you last time Zaged to get outta the way ?

Your not even paying attention to the shooter your in full out flight mode ... meaning there goes your 1 chance of what ever you truly wanted to try to attempt ..

thats how I see it ..

[dark brandon]

AGAIN people are trying to draw this into context with real life weapons. Here, let me explain why militaries go through so many rounds: because it only takes one bullet to kill and no one in the world is encased in full environmental body armor that allows them to stand in front of a tank and take a point blank shot to the chest without damage. Most weapon fire is done with all parties being lightly armored, if armored at all, dealing with weapons where it only takes one hit in 10,000 to kill you. Fighters keep their heads down, provide covering fire, and move tactically. Trying to compare real life weaponry and ballistics to a discussion about weapons that are beyond anything we could hope to produce now or even in the forseeable future is completely ludicrous as justification for why something should work.

As for the rolls, y'know, people just refuse to believe that it could be difficult. Nope, it's this constant train of thought where the shooter has it easy.

What? Did you read my post, because it sounds like you're arguing the exact same thing I just suggested. I think the shooter has it easy, which is why I suggested a strike roll of 15 or 16 with bonuses. I mean, a roll of an 8 on a die is pretty easy to get, and with bonuses, even easier.

As for real life weapons...I was only pointing out that shooting a stationary target at even 50 yards is difficult, unless you're trained (IE bonuses). I would hope that in your game, against a live target that has a sense of self preservation, you'd make it more difficult to hit, especially if you take away the ability to dodge. Or, I would hope that in your game, the Defender has a chance to dodge before the strike roll, so there you can simulate the whole "dodging of the aim and not the laser".

If not...Oh, well, big deal. It's just some honest feedback. Would I ever play in your game? SURE! I just wouldn't get into combat, ever. I'd feel you stack it too much against the players so would do my best to avoid it at all cost. And I'm sure you're the kind of GM who realizes this, and makes it so most if not all combat can be avoided.

So you house-ruled something that in the book states you can't dodge but can only roll. Yet again, only I am the bad guy because I dare to make a weapon unable to be dodged. Not guaranteed to hit, just can't be dodged....cute.

Quit crucifying yourself. No one is calling you the "bad guy", and heaven knows I don't begrudge you for having a house rule. Like it really matters. I was just giving an opinion on your house ruling and giving you some feedback.

[ZorValachan]

Most of them are wasted for reasons that just aren't reflected in Palladium's game mechanics at all, not from guys trying to hit targets at long ranges. There's no penalty for shooting while under incoming fire or while trying to stay under cover. And since there's no penalty for that, there's no incentive whatsoever to lay down covering fire, spraying out a bunch of ammunition to keep the other side's heads down. There's no rule for firing off a few rounds because you're highly sprung when you're clearing a house room by room and expected that last staircase to have some baddies lurking in it.

If real life used Palladium rules, the accuracy and ammunition consumption rates in modern warfare insane. Squads with AK-47s or M-16s would be engaging from a couple of hundred metres away and wasting less than half their ammo on misses. Even gunners on helicopters spraying rice paddies with a machinegun could probably expect 10 or 15% of the rounds they fire to end up inside a person instead of in the mud.

actually there is R:UE pge 361: Shooting wild -6 to strike. "...shooting while under heavy fire himself,..."
And as I stated above -1 to shoot at a moving target. Again pg 361 R:UE, "...an additional -1 to stirke if the target is taking evasive action (zig-zag, leaping behind cover, etc.)

So if you use suppresive fire, move and zig-zag (what people were saying the dodge was), the attacker has a total -8 to strike.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

Of course...your the first person i've ever heard of to not allow dodging explosives. Espeically sinse the book has a big rule on the whole dodging of missles thing

[ZorValachan]

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

Of course...your the first person i've ever heard of to not allow dodging explosives. Espeically sinse the book has a big rule on the whole dodging of missles thing

maybe a clarification is needed?

I though he meant the actual explosion (blast radius), not a missile. If you are caught in the explosive radius, only a roll against impact is allowed, not a dodge...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's a counter question to the haters: If you allow laser dodging, then do you allow dodging of explosions? Can your characters safely clear the explosive radius of a grenade when it goes off? If your character has the reflexes to dodge a laser beam then surely they can scoot fast enough to clear the explosive radius.

Of course...your the first person i've ever heard of to not allow dodging explosives. Espeically sinse the book has a big rule on the whole dodging of missles thing

maybe a clarification is needed?

I though he meant the actual explosion (blast radius), not a missile. If you are caught in the explosive radius, only a roll against impact is allowed, not a dodge...

Oh.

I only allow it if their speed allows them to cross the entire distance in less than a single attack/action takes time.

That ruling was necessary when one of the players in an old game had Sonic Speed the superpower, which kind of necessistated the ruling sinse he really is fast enough to get out of the way.

[Talavar]

My point that seems to have been ignored stands: if you make lasers undodgeable because light is so very fast, you need to make most weapons in Rifts undodgeable. Particle beams & ion cannons are slower than light, sure, but they're still so fast that they're above the threshold of what a human body can react to. Same goes for hyper-sonic projectiles. A person can no more dodge a ramjet or railgun round than a laser - the shooter may miss, but that's all you can hope for.

In my games I generally play a dodge as making the shooter miss, rather than using the negatives for hitting moving targets, etc., but in terms of a real dodge, where the target leaps out of the way of a blast/projectile, almost every MD ranged attack would be impossible. Lasers aren't special.

[Elthbert]

mistake

[Elthbert]

I know how fun that is because we don't have any rules lawyers.
I didn't decide that. You told me.

Says one of, if not the biggest, rules lawyer on the board.

Lasers do move at the speed of light, butthe human finger doesn't, as long as the target is moving and is moving erraticly then there is a real chance for a miss. Dodging represents the erratic evasive actions of a target. Even a flat out sprint in a straight line could be enough to cause someone to miss with a laser, so long as the didn't lead properly, the light moves virtually instantly, the trigger, and switches inside do not, it's really fast, but not instant.

And yet again someone assumes you need to lead a target with a laser weapon.

Any weapon fired by a human is going to require leading. Lets say we have Mr power armour pilot running at a nice clip of 60 mph, nothing excessive, doesn't even know h is being shot at , no dodging, no nothing, so Mr. sniper takes aim with his Laser pulse rifle at a nice cushy range of 1000 feet, not very far at all ( though to be honest this distance really matters very little). So Mr.Sniper has really good reflexes and a tip top gun and from the moment he desires to fire to the moment his finger depressess the trigger and sets off the discharge is .08 seconds (Which is really fast), Mr. power armour pilot has moved 7.04 feet in that time. (60*5280/3600=88 88*.08= 7.04) If the sniper has shot where the power armour pilot was he missed by 7.04 feet. Now if the power armour pilot precieves the danger and reacts even ever so slightly( you know dodging) in the .08 seconds, even if the shooter has adjusted for the speed of the target then he is going to miss.


Now if you work with really big distances and really fast speeds evading a laser becomes a not very difficult proposition at all.

[Lenwen]

It seems that people who think thier should be a "dodge" attempt due to the whole bobbing and weaving and running away in various patters and what nots ..

I just took my paintball gun .. and my rottie outside ... in the back yard .. my yard is roughly an acre square .. my dog can move FASTER then any normal human ..

I attempted to shot the pooch ( sorry again Carbo ) with my paintball gun .. roughly 50 times ...

Cruelty to animals much?

Carbo usually eats a shoe a week or a chair corner per every few days ...

Its bout time he pulls his weight instead of eating it ... around here ..



And It just so happens that he helped me prove an invaluble thing .. directly to anyone who thinks they can mearly run away zig / Zag style .. an "Dodge" anything ..


I've YET .. to meet anyone .. or anything .. that can out run my ability .. to raise a weapon .. take aim .. and fire upon them ..

Zig/Zaging included .. and thats with just a Paintball gun .. which does NOT have the same abilities .. as per a Laser shooting weapon ..

I love how everyone on the baord .. seems to forget that .. the whole arguement is basically the "Premise" of knowing when to Zig / Zag as per knowing when that shooter .. is going to shoot ..

Which I find as 100% totally irrelivent ..

Your in FULL FLIGHT ... with your BACK twords the Laser being SHOT at you ..

There in lies the rub .. Your 1 single "Grasping" thing of knowing when to judge people .. when thier GOING to take that shot .. is gone .. out the window ..

Because your in SUCH a flight mode that your not paying attention what so ever .. about where that shooter is pointing his weapon ...

And I've YET .. to find 1 logical factor to dispute this simple as it gets .. reasonining behind .. People running from a person with a Laser weapon ... do NOT get a dodge ..

[Lenwen]

I've a question .. for ANYONE ...

Question : How can some one running in full flight .. back to the shooter .. zig/zag'n .. and everything .. know When the Shooter is going to shoot .. to KNOW when to Zig .. or when to Zag ?

This is litterally the ONLY thing people have been using as the means to "Dodge" the Laser .. by "Dodging" where the person's generally pointing his weapon is pointing ...

When that person is in Full flight .. running hard as you can possibly run .. ziggn and zaggn .. you LOSE the ability to know which direction that the Shooter is Generally shooting .. as well as the ability to KNOW when that person is "GOING" to fire a laser Bolt off in your general vacinity ..

Your NOT paying attention to anyone .. now .. your only paying attention to the rout that which you WANT to take .. to try to get out of the shooters shooting vacinity .

[Elthbert]

It seems that people who think thier should be a "dodge" attempt due to the whole bobbing and weaving and running away in various patters and what nots ..

I just took my paintball gun .. and my rottie outside ... in the back yard .. my yard is roughly an acre square .. my dog can move FASTER then any normal human ..

I attempted to shot the pooch ( sorry again Carbo ) with my paintball gun .. roughly 50 times ...

Cruelty to animals much?

Carbo usually eats a shoe a week or a chair corner per every few days ...

Its bout time he pulls his weight instead of eating it ... around here ..



And It just so happens that he helped me prove an invaluble thing .. directly to anyone who thinks they can mearly run away zig / Zag style .. an "Dodge" anything ..


I've YET .. to meet anyone .. or anything .. that can out run my ability .. to raise a weapon .. take aim .. and fire upon them ..

Zig/Zaging included .. and thats with just a Paintball gun .. which does NOT have the same abilities .. as per a Laser shooting weapon ..

I love how everyone on the baord .. seems to forget that .. the whole arguement is basically the "Premise" of knowing when to Zig / Zag as per knowing when that shooter .. is going to shoot ..

Which I find as 100% totally irrelivent ..

Your in FULL FLIGHT ... with your BACK twords the Laser being SHOT at you ..

There in lies the rub .. Your 1 single "Grasping" thing of knowing when to judge people .. when thier GOING to take that shot .. is gone .. out the window ..

Because your in SUCH a flight mode that your not paying attention what so ever .. about where that shooter is pointing his weapon ...

And I've YET .. to find 1 logical factor to dispute this simple as it gets .. reasonining behind .. People running from a person with a Laser weapon ... do NOT get a dodge ..

Have you ever hunted? I have seen a duck dodge a 30 inch circle of lead like "it wasn't nothing but a thang". Your dog is not trying specifically to dodge you, and you have no concern about him shooting back. Running low and giving the shooter a quartering shot is all you need to do to aviod being shot by most people, and I mean people with experiance with guns. I have been shot at repeatedly, and I have been shot once (.22--I'm not saying I am the Uber-man) and most people miss if you are moving, Thank God! Out of the say 12 bullets that have been shot at me the only one that hit me was when i was shot completly by suprise, from some distance ( I don't know how far, never saw the guy), while I was sitting still at a bus stop. A moving target is hard to hit, one that is weaving all around is harder still, one that is weaving all around and shooting back, well it's hard to shoot well when your trying to stay down yourself.

[Elthbert]

I know how fun that is because we don't have any rules lawyers.
I didn't decide that. You told me.

Says one of, if not the biggest, rules lawyer on the board.

Lasers do move at the speed of light, butthe human finger doesn't, as long as the target is moving and is moving erraticly then there is a real chance for a miss. Dodging represents the erratic evasive actions of a target. Even a flat out sprint in a straight line could be enough to cause someone to miss with a laser, so long as the didn't lead properly, the light moves virtually instantly, the trigger, and switches inside do not, it's really fast, but not instant.

And yet again someone assumes you need to lead a target with a laser weapon.

Any weapon fired by a human is going to require leading. Lets say we have Mr power armour pilot running at a nice clip of 60 mph, nothing excessive, doesn't even know h is being shot at , no dodging, no nothing, so Mr. sniper takes aim with his Laser pulse rifle at a nice cushy range of 1000 feet, not very far at all ( though to be honest this distance really matters very little). So Mr.Sniper has really good reflexes and a tip top gun and from the moment he desires to fire to the moment his finger depressess the trigger and sets off the discharge is .08 seconds (Which is really fast), Mr. power armour pilot has moved 7.04 feet in that time. (60*5280/3600=88 88*.08= 7.04) If the sniper has shot where the power armour pilot was he missed by 7.04 feet. Now if the power armour pilot precieves the danger and reacts even ever so slightly( you know dodging) in the .08 seconds, even if the shooter has adjusted for the speed of the target then he is going to miss.


Now if you work with really big distances and really fast speeds evading a laser becomes a not very difficult proposition at all.

The problem you have with your analogy is that you're assuming the person who pulls the trigger STOPS moving the gun with the target. As long as the gun is pointed at the target when the trigger is pulled, it's a hit. You're working under the assumption that the shooter has stopped moving the gun the instant the trigger was pulled. So no, again leading does not apply to laser weaponry.

A constant swing is a form of lead. It is called the Tracking Method and for referance can be found on page 10-10 of the USMC-MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship manual. This is LEADING the target.


Edit:
Furthermore, if the person reacts to the percieved danger ( a dodge) and jerks back, falls down or makes any other change to their movement in that .08 seconds ( which is as I said really fast, probably jerky movment) then the tracking method is going to produce a miss.

[Crazy Lou]

I know how fun that is because we don't have any rules lawyers.
I didn't decide that. You told me.

Says one of, if not the biggest, rules lawyer on the board.

Lasers do move at the speed of light, butthe human finger doesn't, as long as the target is moving and is moving erraticly then there is a real chance for a miss. Dodging represents the erratic evasive actions of a target. Even a flat out sprint in a straight line could be enough to cause someone to miss with a laser, so long as the didn't lead properly, the light moves virtually instantly, the trigger, and switches inside do not, it's really fast, but not instant.

And yet again someone assumes you need to lead a target with a laser weapon.

Any weapon fired by a human is going to require leading. Lets say we have Mr power armour pilot running at a nice clip of 60 mph, nothing excessive, doesn't even know h is being shot at , no dodging, no nothing, so Mr. sniper takes aim with his Laser pulse rifle at a nice cushy range of 1000 feet, not very far at all ( though to be honest this distance really matters very little). So Mr.Sniper has really good reflexes and a tip top gun and from the moment he desires to fire to the moment his finger depressess the trigger and sets off the discharge is .08 seconds (Which is really fast), Mr. power armour pilot has moved 7.04 feet in that time. (60*5280/3600=88 88*.08= 7.04) If the sniper has shot where the power armour pilot was he missed by 7.04 feet. Now if the power armour pilot precieves the danger and reacts even ever so slightly( you know dodging) in the .08 seconds, even if the shooter has adjusted for the speed of the target then he is going to miss.


Now if you work with really big distances and really fast speeds evading a laser becomes a not very difficult proposition at all.

The problem you have with your analogy is that you're assuming the person who pulls the trigger STOPS moving the gun with the target. As long as the gun is pointed at the target when the trigger is pulled, it's a hit. You're working under the assumption that the shooter has stopped moving the gun the instant the trigger was pulled. So no, again leading does not apply to laser weaponry.

A constant swing is a form of lead. It is called the Tracking Method and for referance can be found on page 10-10 of the USMC-MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship manual. This is LEADING the target.


Edit:
Furthermore, if the person reacts to the percieved danger ( a dodge) and jerks back, falls down or makes any other change to their movement in that .08 seconds ( which is as I said really fast, probably jerky movment) then the tracking method is going to produce a miss.

THANK YOU! Took the words right out of my mouth (except I couldn't've given the citation like that)!

[Natasha]

A constant swing is a form of lead. It is called the Tracking Method and for referance can be found on page 10-10 of the USMC-MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship manual. This is LEADING the target.

This is semantics. We're talking about keeping the gun sights on the target as it moves. There is no time lag between shooting and striking.

Edit:
Furthermore, if the person reacts to the percieved danger ( a dodge) and jerks back, falls down or makes any other change to their movement in that .08 seconds ( which is as I said really fast, probably jerky movment) then the tracking method is going to produce a miss.

I see no compelling reason why a standard shot at center mass shot (or even a called shot) should be dodged since the gunsight is moving with the target, there's no lag anywhere in the sequence or the system. Gun movement while depressing the trigger on a laser rifle isn't going to affect the weapon's accuracy unlike with normal weapons since the bullet has to travel the barrel. In other words, your 0.08 seconds is irrelevant.

[Crazy Lou]

Why are lasers special in all of this? Human reaction time isn't great enough to discern the vast speed difference between light, and other very very fast things - like ramjets, rail guns, other energy weapons, etc. To our fleshy sensory processing systems they're all off the chart and unmeasurably fast. Recoil should in no way help someone dodge; it might make the shooter miss with his next shot though.

I was going to mention this next too. IF you treat the dodge timing as per the rules as requiring the attack to already be finished before a dodge may be attempted (and I'll get to this in a future post), then how do you explain allowing your players to dodge all the other types of firearms (and I'm not even saying just MD weapons, but even old school SDC ones like exist now!)??? There's no logical reason why you would draw the line at lasers, because, as has been noted repeatedly, the difference in the speed of a laser compared to a bullet or ion blast, while technically huge, is utterly insignificant to human (even juicer) perception!

[Elthbert]

A constant swing is a form of lead. It is called the Tracking Method and for referance can be found on page 10-10 of the USMC-MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship manual. This is LEADING the target.

This is semantics. We're talking about keeping the gun sights on the target as it moves. There is no time lag between shooting and striking.

Acctually, people started talking aboutthat AFTER I pointed out that one had to lead a moving target. That said, if you are going to talk about shooting with authority then use proper terms.

"Semantics" are important parts of this thing Humans have developed called language, which allows us to communicate with one another.

Edit:
Furthermore, if the person reacts to the percieved danger ( a dodge) and jerks back, falls down or makes any other change to their movement in that .08 seconds ( which is as I said really fast, probably jerky movment) then the tracking method is going to produce a miss.

I see no compelling reason why a standard shot at center mass shot (or even a called shot) should be dodged since the gunsight is moving with the target, there's no lag anywhere in the sequence or the system. Gun movement while depressing the trigger on a laser rifle isn't going to affect the weapon's accuracy unlike with normal weapons since the bullet has to travel the barrel. In other words, your 0.08 seconds is irrelevant.

No it does matter. I really don't understand the problem here. If a target alters its movment enough in the time it takes to make the disicion to fire and to fire, then one is going to miss, a laser weapon might even be less forgiving due to the speed of travel of the beam (please think about it before requiring me to explain why.) This is a dodge, the ability of the target to move ( the Dodge roll) more than the shooters ability to correct (the strike roll) is what is needed to produce a dodged attack.

And what makes you think gun movement isn't going to affect a lasers accuracy, nothing could be further from the truth, the virtually instant travel time of a laser will amplify the inaccuracy of sloppy marksmanship. A minute jerk from a hasitly jerked trigger will instantly be translated into a change in the path of the beam.

[dark brandon]

I make combat dangerous. I hate games where people think power gaming is a viable form of role playing when they do it just for the sake of power gaming. I treat soldiers as thinking, creative, well-armed & trained people who aren't just going to line up like idiots to let the players shoot them with impunity. Cover is very important, so is concealment. If people want to play a game of Star Wars: Apocalypse where the bad guys can't hit anything but the nearby walls and have the brainpower of a dead squirrel on the highway then fine, but these same people need to understand that not everyone plays the game with kid gloves. I've already detailed how lasers are the only weapons that get this and when people cry about balance they have yet to get it through their skulls that balance is in play but I won't tailor a game for stupidity. Some people whine about juicers being screwed, juicers can do more than just dodge...and with MDC armor being so prevalent a juicer can easily close the distance to close quarters and start inflicting massive punishment. Thinking and smart tactics are what win battles, not jumping around like a moron or running helter skelter.

It's not stupidity, it's just game play style. I haven't gamed with you so I can't comment on what kind of GM you are. Would I play a juicer? Probably not. Your game sounds like a borg would probably be the better choice, maybe a GB pilot, or some PA pilot. Anything with lots of MDC or something like a Rogue scholar or scientist where if you get into combat, you're probably dead, so you avoid combat at all costs. The ability to dodge, and combat bonuses are what make certain classes (Such as juicers and Crazies) appealing, specifically auto-dodgeing ranged attacks (including lasers). I would imagine juicers and crazies are a lot less common in your game than typical games, since I think the majority of weapons are laser weapons, so the benefit of being a juicer is overshadowed by the penalties (Decent strength and speed vs. 1/2 of your combats your major ability is nullified, lack of skills and shortened life span) and typical juicer armor (45 MDC) is much less than typical soldier MDC (90 MDC). I would also imagine juicer mercs are paid relatively less in your world than in the typical world, since being a juicer seems more of a novelty than an effective biological change. Though, with their speed and agility they probably are still decent snipers.

[Dr. Doom III]

A Juicer is NOT an autododging tank, it's really that simple.

Actually that’s pretty much the definition of Juicer.

[sHaka]

I make combat dangerous. I hate games where people think power gaming is a viable form of role playing when they do it just for the sake of power gaming. I treat soldiers as thinking, creative, well-armed & trained people who aren't just going to line up like idiots to let the players shoot them with impunity. Cover is very important, so is concealment. If people want to play a game of Star Wars: Apocalypse where the bad guys can't hit anything but the nearby walls and have the brainpower of a dead squirrel on the highway then fine, but these same people need to understand that not everyone plays the game with kid gloves. I've already detailed how lasers are the only weapons that get this and when people cry about balance they have yet to get it through their skulls that balance is in play but I won't tailor a game for stupidity. Some people whine about juicers being screwed, juicers can do more than just dodge...and with MDC armor being so prevalent a juicer can easily close the distance to close quarters and start inflicting massive punishment. Thinking and smart tactics are what win battles, not jumping around like a moron or running helter skelter.

It's not stupidity, it's just game play style. I haven't gamed with you so I can't comment on what kind of GM you are. Would I play a juicer? Probably not. Your game sounds like a borg would probably be the better choice, maybe a GB pilot, or some PA pilot. Anything with lots of MDC or something like a Rogue scholar or scientist where if you get into combat, you're probably dead, so you avoid combat at all costs. The ability to dodge, and combat bonuses are what make certain classes (Such as juicers and Crazies) appealing, specifically auto-dodgeing ranged attacks (including lasers). I would imagine juicers and crazies are a lot less common in your game than typical games, since I think the majority of weapons are laser weapons, so the benefit of being a juicer is overshadowed by the penalties (Decent strength and speed vs. 1/2 of your combats your major ability is nullified, lack of skills and shortened life span) and typical juicer armor (45 MDC) is much less than typical soldier MDC (90 MDC). I would also imagine juicer mercs are paid relatively less in your world than in the typical world, since being a juicer seems more of a novelty than an effective biological change. Though, with their speed and agility they probably are still decent snipers.

Now, to everyone else who has been demanding dodges and how blah blah blah....a simple question: Why don't you scream to Siembieda daily about a little spell called Call Lightning? Whereas even with laser weaponry there is the chance to miss with that spell there is no roll to strike, there is no dodge. You just get hit, end of story. Not only that, it increases in damage the more you level up.

That's easy, Call Lightning...is magic