Dead Boy wrote:ingexthefuryhunter1 wrote:It seems to me that no matter what answer we give Dead boy, he isn't going to like it unless it is "his answer" So here is an easy answer for ya, If you don't like the idea that the burster doesn't get this nifty little glitch right off, House rule it.
yea, I've bumped into that problem with KC on more than one occasion.
(psst.... he's talking about
you....)
After formulating his opinion his normal tactic is to drown out all dissenting voices with the sheer volume of posts till they just give up, allowing him to disregard that differing opinion as "House Rule" as opposed to his "solid, irrefutable, logically sound, inviolate, canon law".
Not at all.
I post the facts, and support them from the books.
If you see a lot of posts from me when we argue, I suppose that's because there's a lot of stuff in the books that goes against your side.
KC's position is that its a "game balance issue" or "general energy damage", and yet there's insufficient material to support those positions.
Find ANYTHING in ANY of the books that treats lasers as heat damage.
Anything at all.
...
No...?
Okay, then.
Meanwhile, there are dozens of cases where they're treated differently.
So how is it supposed to be at all unclear whether lasers are treated as heat weapons or not?
Game balance was never an element in Rifts.
Manure.
But if you want to say there's no game balance, then I suppose there must be a different reason why lasers don't count as heat damage.
That doesn't change the fact that they do not count as heat damage.
However the implication of the listed examples is that they are all SDC in nature, and not MD.
Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.
If I may quote you from your own prior response to rebut that statement..
KC: "
-on p. 118 of Splynn Dimensional Market, there is a parasite called "Living Armor."
Among other abilities, it makes the host "impervious to natural heat/fire/cold."
It includes a parenthetical explanation of the word "natural" in this context: "non-magical and non-MDC."
All the examples of head damage covered by Impervious to Fire would fall under those of what could be classified as "natural".[/quote]
Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.
And since you didn't seem to grok that concept last time, I'll elaborate.
The example is NOT:
-a campfire
-a lit match
-a torch
-a blowtorch
-a SDC flamethrower
-or any other SDC specific example.
The example is "Fire."
Period.
And there are MD fires, and there are SDC fires.
Fire can be MD or SDC.
And there are no limitations on the power. It makes you immune to "fire," not "natural fire," or "SDC fire."
Just "fire."
Well, they are essentially "Dragon Bursters", and the description of the power does note MD-scale immunity. So yes, if the Burster is ruled to be immune to MD lasers, so would the Flame Wind Dragon. They are in the Burster family after all.
And all other dragons must be Burster cousins, since they take half damage from heat.
And all other creatures that are impervious to fire must also be Burster relatives- uncles, aunts, grandfathers or such.
Well, they do take half damage from MD Plasma, which is definitely heat based, so maybe they should.
Yeah, that must be it.
Beyond the Flame Wind Dragon and Bursters (and burster-like classes such as that flaming tiger mutant in SA, which are just glorified Bursters with a different special effect for all intents and purposes), name three where the description of their fire resistance power expressly notes immunity in the MD range.
So here's a list of some MDC beings that list immunity or resistance to heat/fire attacks:
And here is my rebuttal to that list, (and with a list like that, you should have given book and page numbers too).
Dragons: Addressed above, generally not immune but takes 1/2 damage
You asked for fire resistance. Resistance gives 1/2 damage.
Immunity gives full resistance.
I misread your post and thought you were asking for both, when in reality you were asking for something that doesn't exist;
resistance that gives
immunity.
My bad.
But I don't see how it makes any difference, unless you're saying that lasers are heat damage, but that it wouldn't affect the game world because there's a heck of a lot of creatures that would still take
half damage from lasers...?
Also no explicit immunity to MD.
As I already said, they're MDC creatures.
You think the writers are making up MDC creatures that take 1/2 damage from SDC fires...?
And that this theory makes more sense than the notion that the 1/2 damage rule applies to fires that actually damage the creature in the first place?
You know... MD fires.
As noted before, there is no reason to believe that the minor psi ability is applicable to attacks in the MD range.
a) It makes you immune to fire, not "SDC fire."
b) The writers gave this power to a MDC creature. You really think that the writers decided that this creature needed a power that would let it take 1/2 damage from something that it doesn't take any damage from anyway?
c) The power makes you take 1/2 damage from magic fire.
-Can you think of any magical fires in Rifts that inflict SDC damage?
-If not, then your interpretation leaves you with a power that doesn't protect against MD fires... unless they're magical MD fires, in which case you get 50% protection.
This makes sense to you?
Gods (as a general rule): Well duh!
Of course.
But they're not bursters, so they meet the criteria you asked for.
I could go on but I'm coming across a central theme amongst the vast majority of these, "Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD."
Actually, there were quite a few of them that did indeed specify immunity to MD fires.
But since they're all MDC creatures and are already impervious to normal fires, I figured I'd rest on the obviousness of the fact that they wouldn't be given resistance to something that couldn't affect them in the first place.
consider this; most of those above also had resistance to cold listed in the same breath. Perhaps in these cases their natural ability vs heat and cold is more of an environmental protection rather than that of a combat oriented one as it is with Dragons and Bursters, where the use of "fire" for most others was never intended to be extended to all manner of heat-related attacks.
What makes you think that cold is more of an environmental factor than a combat oriented factor?
In addition:
-the Incan Undead RCC in South America II has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)," showing that laser weapons are NOT considered to be fire-based.
-Spell-created Zombies take 1/2 damage from energy attacks, but full damage from fire.
It lists lasers among the energy attacks. (DC 67)
That could have more to do with the coverage of the attack than it's heat-based nature.
There's nothing to indicate any such thing.
Wishful thinking on your part.
-Mega Juicers (and others) that are only invulnerable to normal fires/cold specify so.
Incorrect. The passage actually reads, "Virtually impervious to ... normal ranged of heat and cold" (JU 38) That's about environmental protection, not damage from attacks.
Showing that when the protection is specifically environmental instead of combat, that's what the book says.
(I was counting a campfire-type SDC as a "normal range of heat," but if you don't, that's cool)
-There are MD lasers and SDC lasers. If lasers are heat-based weapons for game purposes, then by your logic any SDC being that is hit by an SDC laser beam would still take 1/2 damage.
Hu?
Why on God's green Earth would normal people automatically take half damage from heat-based damage?
I didn't mean to throw you off-track by leaving the "any SDC being
that has resistance to fire/heat" part unsaid.
My point was simply this:
You are operating under the assumption that if a power does not specify that it protects from MD level fire/heat, then it only protects against SDC level fire/heat.
You are operating under the assumption that lasers are heat weapons.
Combine these two, and any SDC being (I never said "normal people") that has resistance to heat would take half damage from SDC lasers.
So any psychic with the "Impervious to to Fire" power would, by your logic, if I'm following you, would be impervious to SDC lasers.
Any SDC being with the Pyrokinesis power would take half damage from SDC lasers
(BTW, magic fires do full damage to the psychic. Is this just talking about the mysterious SDC magic fires, or all magic fire?).
And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.
Because the writers count it as "energy" instead of "heat."
If that was their intent, you think they would have said something to that effect somewhere in the pages of the 40+ books that have come out to date.[/quote]
They have.
Every time they refer to lasers by damage type, they count them as energy.
At no time, ever, do they refer to lasers as heat damage.
Not
once, in 20 years.