LLW and Scrolls ?

[Lenwen]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

[Library Ogre]

1 or 2, gained from quests and the like.

The average 5th level Ley Line Walker isn't going to have a high-level spell.

[drewkitty ~..~]

maybe 1-4
Probibly healing and other after battle useful spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

None:
a) Those are 11th level spells.
b) An average ley line walker isn't even literate. (RUE 191)
c)

Magic Scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth.

(RUE 191)

[Lenwen]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

None:
a) Those are 11th level spells.
b) An average ley line walker isn't even literate. (RUE 191)
c)

Magic Scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth.

(RUE 191)

1) - There are literate LLW's and these are the Walkers I was talking about.
2) - LLW can learn spells of any lvl, AT any lvl , And activly hunt down new spells when ever the chance arises.
3) - They can easily join a guild to attain spells far exceeding thier lvls.

[Lenwen]

It also breaks down to usability and PPE cost just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should.

So then you would punish the LLW PC who wanted to start making Scrolls .. because as you put it .. just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should ?

In essence your trying to handicap the LLW ?

[Lenwen]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

Ok then .

I'm saying as a player sometimes one should really think if having a super powerful spell is with in their levels of PPE they can get their hands on and if this spell has a real use other then "Look I have a 15th level spell that makes me uber awesome!"

That is what the spell Energy Sphere does. Save up huge amounts of PPE to use those costly spells like Teleport Sup, Warrior Horde an so on an so forth.

Cause in the end you might end up saying "I don't have the PPE to use it and even if I do get my hands on that much PPE I'm going to be drained and screwed afterwards." It then turns out that so called great spell was just a waste until your higher level.

As stated previously, the spell Energy Sphere negates the whole not enough PPE to cast spells. And with that power alone even a 1st lvl LLW could store incredible amounts of PPE with which to cast almost any spell known.

Asking a player to think about their spell selection isn't punishment if they want ok but your the one that could have went for something that you don't have to wait eight levels or need a dozens things in place to use.

no your right there.. "Asking" a player to think about it is not what you just did.

Your telling the PC's no.

Totally different things.

[Killer Cyborg]

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

None:
a) Those are 11th level spells.
b) An average ley line walker isn't even literate. (RUE 191)
c)

Magic Scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth.

(RUE 191)

1) - There are literate LLW's and these are the Walkers I was talking about.
2) - LLW can learn spells of any lvl, AT any lvl , And activly hunt down new spells when ever the chance arises.
3) - They can easily join a guild to attain spells far exceeding thier lvls.

1. So instead of "a level 5 LLW" "on average," you meant, "Out of the roughly 30% of LLWs that are literate, some of these are likely to be around 5th level. How many scrolls would such an unusual character have on him/her, on average?"
2. They can learn, but most don't learn 11th level spells by 5th level, even though most do indeed search.
Searching for something is not the same as finding it, or even being likely to find it.
The average 5th level literate LLW still isn't going to know any 11th level spells, and if they do, the odds of it being those two spells are pretty low.
3. Yes, they can join a guild. Yes, they can learn spells through the guild.
No, they are not likely to learn spells of 11th level.
If you're actively helpful to the guild, they might teach you new spells, but usually only level 1-5.
"An incredible act of heroics or self-sacrifice" can get them to teach you 1 spell of 6th level or beyond.
But most 5th level LLWs are not going to have engaged in "incredible acts of heroics or self-sacrifice" on behalf of the guild. Otherwise, such acts would merely be "credible."
(RUE, 190-191)

So, once again, none.
It's possible for a mage to have those spells by 5th level, but it's going to be incredibly rare.
ON AVERAGE, a literate 5th level LLW is still not going to have any scrolls.

[Killer Cyborg]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

That one, in response to his point, yes.
Almost the epitome of defensiveness.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

That one, in response to his point, yes.
Almost the epitome of defensiveness.

I had to check the dictionary to make sure I understood epitome right, It's awesome when Killer makes you bust out the dictionary.

I award Killer Cyborg 50 Scrabble points

[Lenwen]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

That one, in response to his point, yes.
Almost the epitome of defensiveness.

Defensiveness = A feeling. Something clearly lacking when your debating something over an "Internet" baord. If you guys think asking a question is being defensive, I'd hate to see what happens when your guys wives as you to do the dishes

[Ice Dragon]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

1D6 scrolls with spells level 1-8 (role 1D8).

[runebeo]

Our GM usually allows our LLW to buy 2 or 3 to before most big missions so I'd say he carries 4 to 7, but usually only 2 or 3 on him when not exspectting combat. Normally he has a Teleport Self, Magic Net and Time Slip.

[The Beast]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

None:
a) Those are 11th level spells.
b) An average ley line walker isn't even literate. (RUE 191)
c)

Magic Scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth.

(RUE 191)

Seconded.

[Killer Cyborg]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

That one, in response to his point, yes.
Almost the epitome of defensiveness.

Defensiveness = A feeling. Something clearly lacking when your debating something over an "Internet" baord. If you guys think asking a question is being defensive, I'd hate to see what happens when your guys wives as you to do the dishes

None of that really made any sense, but whatever.

Let's get back on topic.

[runebeo]

Our GM is generous with letting his players learns spells if he a afford it and find someone to teach them the spells. She not overly generous with letting us purchase scrolls because she has really limited scroll creation first by making few know how to do, secondly says demand is high for most scrolls and third to stop non-guild members from creating scrolls some guilds will impose a tax or fine on mages selling scrolls in their territory.

[Cybermancer]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

None.

[Lenwen]

1 or 2, gained from quests and the like.

The average 5th level Ley Line Walker isn't going to have a high-level spell.

Agreed.

I kinda agree a fifth level LLW should have reasonable level spells.

Understood.

It also breaks down to usability and PPE cost just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should.

Please tell me your joking right?
That is like saying .. Just because you as a merc CAN get that heavy naruni belt Force Feild does not mean you should. Your not playing as the characters are supposed to be played if you honestly think this what you, yourself has wrote.

So, once again, none.
It's possible for a mage to have those spells by 5th level, but it's going to be incredibly rare.
ON AVERAGE, a literate 5th level LLW is still not going to have any scrolls.

I see.

chances of a 5th LLW having access to those sorts of spells is very unlikely.

Understood.

None

Understood.

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

[Cybermancer]

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

To have those spells plus the other Ley Line Walker abilities.

[Lenwen]

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

To have those spells plus the other Ley Line Walker abilities.

What spells ?


lvl 5 and below spells ?

None of which are very impressive to begin with ? Outside of Magic net and Carpet of Adhesion, which both are considered offensive type spells, means that thier not going to be cheap nor are they going to be available at any and all spell vendors.

[The Beast]

None

Understood.

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Uh, where are you getting this from? His answer was to how many scrolls the average LLW 5th+ level would have, not if they'd have additional spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Plus any that he bought, stole, or learned through other means.
(which isn't likely to include 11th level spells.)

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

Because not everybody is interested in playing front-loaded characters who max out their power at low levels, and many people are interested in maintaining perspective about scarcity, power, overall game balance, character depth, character growth, and other factors.

[Cybermancer]

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

To have those spells plus the other Ley Line Walker abilities.

What spells ?


lvl 5 and below spells ?

None of which are very impressive to begin with ? Outside of Magic net and Carpet of Adhesion, which both are considered offensive type spells, means that thier not going to be cheap nor are they going to be available at any and all spell vendors.

I did not place value on either the class nor the spells. My statement reflects only that someone wishing to play a Ley Line Walker does so in order to get the spells and abilities of that class. But to add an ammendment to that, the other reason to play a Ley Line Walker is because someone wishes to play a mage and they just 'feel' that Ley Line Walker suits them better than the other choices.

You asked why one would play the class. The question has been answered.

[Killer Cyborg]

So then checking out the books by the books a 5th lvl LLW will have the 12 original spells and then up to 4 additional spells of any by choice, up to his current lvl of Exp.

Why would anyone want to play a LLW then ?

To have those spells plus the other Ley Line Walker abilities.

What spells ?

lvl 5 and below spells ?

None of which are very impressive to begin with ? Outside of Magic net and Carpet of Adhesion, which both are considered offensive type spells, means that thier not going to be cheap nor are they going to be available at any and all spell vendors.

How many of those spells can YOU personally cast in the real world?
None?
So relatively speaking, being able to cast any of them would be pretty impressive.

Not everybody uses the same gauge of "impressive" that you use.

[Malakai]

Well, as others have pointed out, getting access to the needed spells is going to be problematic, particularly for your basic LLW - I do hold that such things are not as rare or difficult to learn as they are being made out to be (GM willing, of course). To back this up:

A slight look at the passage being mentioned of the illiteracy of LLWs. The full quote is:

Magic scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth. One reason is that most people, including many practitioners of magic, are illiterate (about 70%). Another is that few are either skilled enough or willing to write a spell invocation down for fear other mages will learn the spell from the scroll."

For one, the question comes up of what is meant by "extremely uncommon" - to what is it being compared? Given that it is mentioned in the "Pursuit of Magic" section, where every other group is about learning new spells, then you could consider the rarity of scrolls mentioned is as it pertains to those made for learning - which is fine by me - we are talking about use, and likely personal use at that. If you mean it's really unlikely that you would come across them at all, I would have to disagree - those able to make scrolls are more common than you may believe, and the shear usefulness of them means that they are a desired commodity, meaning there is definitely a market and pool of suppliers. (see below)

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

Now is the part about being "skilled enough" - I would like to pose this another way - "How obtainable are these spells?" Others have called this into question, and indeed, it is a valid question for the LLW. In this, I would like to point to another caster - the Shifter. I am assuming we can all agree that two casters can teach each spells. Energy Sphere is available to all Shifters for free (as one of their free spells for leveling) - so a 2nd-level Shifter has a reasonable chance to have it (Indeed, given the usefulness of it - and the expense of summoning spells, probably likely to have it). Add to this that linking with a God of Magic allows the Shifter 8 spells from levels 3-13 from get go, Create Magic Scroll (and even Talisman, if we wanted to go there) is also readily available to low-level characters, both PC and NPC, without stretching the setting or bending the rules.

Where am I going with this? That there is a reasonable chance such lower-level Shifters exist who need things done - things they may not be able to do themselves, and want the assistance of said LLW. Hell, I'd bet that it would be likely that more than a few "Magic shops" are run by such Shifters, who use this knowledge to create commonly-needed scrolls and Talismans, and may be willing to offer the spell knowledge in exchange for a few favors. Yes, this may seem convoluted - my goal was never to say that such things were easy to get, just to point out that their are more valid and likely sources for a 5th level LLW to get the needed spells and scrolls from, than the often cited "High-level magic-user/shop" or the (IMHO) ridiculously expensive Spells-Purchase section.

So, I agree that the average 5th level LLW is only going to have, maybe, a few scrolls, and none are likely to be particularly high level.

:::seeing where someone has taken this:::

Honestly, I think the LLW got the shaft in RUE when it comes to level advancement ini terms of spells - I mean, the Shifter gets 3 spells per level instead of just one, AND gets to choose from a list that includes many higher-level and highly-sought-after spells for those extra two. As others have said, 5th LLW = not that likely to be walking around with (too) many scrolls. 5th level Shifter - much more likely

[Lenwen]

How many of those spells can YOU personally cast in the real world?
None?
So relatively speaking, being able to cast any of them would be pretty impressive.

Not everybody uses the same gauge of "impressive" that you use.

So your saying that because no one can cast a spell in our real reality, that being able to do so in a Fantasy gaming system is just THAT much more impressive?

[Lenwen]

You asked why one would play the class. The question has been answered.

I thank you for your very astute observation of the question in question.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, as others have pointed out, getting access to the needed spells is going to be problematic, particularly for your basic LLW - I do hold that such things are not as rare or difficult to learn as they are being made out to be (GM willing, of course). To back this up:

A slight look at the passage being mentioned of the illiteracy of LLWs. The full quote is:

Magic scrolls are extremely uncommon on Rifts Earth. One reason is that most people, including many practitioners of magic, are illiterate (about 70%). Another is that few are either skilled enough or willing to write a spell invocation down for fear other mages will learn the spell from the scroll."

For one, the question comes up of what is meant by "extremely uncommon" - to what is it being compared? Given that it is mentioned in the "Pursuit of Magic" section, where every other group is about learning new spells, then you could consider the rarity of scrolls mentioned is as it pertains to those made for learning - which is fine by me - we are talking about use, and likely personal use at that. If you mean it's really unlikely that you would come across them at all, I would have to disagree - those able to make scrolls are more common than you may believe, and the shear usefulness of them means that they are a desired commodity, meaning there is definitely a market and pool of suppliers. (see below)

You're missing a factor.
The passage says, "another is that few are either skilled enough or willing to write a spell invocation down for fear other mages will learn the spell from the scroll."

By selling scrolls, you're endangering your semi-monopoly on whatever spell you're writing down.
It might not be an issue with low-level spells, but who's going to buy a scroll for a low-level spell?
Not many people, I think.

Of the limited number of mages who have the skills to make scrolls, only a small percentage of those are likely to sell them.

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

You are quite possibly correct there. It doesn't say whether the 70% is supposed to apply to mages or to people overall in that passage.
It could well be describing the overall population, which would indeed make it very likely that mages would generally have higher literacy rates.

Now is the part about being "skilled enough" - I would like to pose this another way - "How obtainable are these spells?" Others have called this into question, and indeed, it is a valid question for the LLW. In this, I would like to point to another caster - the Shifter. I am assuming we can all agree that two casters can teach each spells.

They can, but as a rule they don't.
Not with spells of that high of a level, at least.

RUE 190
"Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magic societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo and (the former) Tolkeen, there are some spells taht are guarded secrets, rarely taught. These generally include most spells above leverl 10. The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

People join guilds in order to learn spells, because guilds are one of the best and easiest ways to learn spells- and guilds won't teach you anything over level 6 unless you perform an "incredible" feat for them.

An individual Shifter might consider trading his 11the level spell to a LLW, but probably not because SELLING that spell would net him 1 million credits, and it's unlikely that whatever spell(s) he was trading it for would be worth it.

[Killer Cyborg]

How many of those spells can YOU personally cast in the real world?
None?
So relatively speaking, being able to cast any of them would be pretty impressive.

Not everybody uses the same gauge of "impressive" that you use.

So your saying that because no one can cast a spell in our real reality, that being able to do so in a Fantasy gaming system is just THAT much more impressive?

Yes.
Absolutely.
That's what makes it fantasy- the ability to do things that you can't do in life.

[Cybermancer]

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

You are quite possibly correct there. It doesn't say whether the 70% is supposed to apply to mages or to people overall in that passage.
It could well be describing the overall population, which would indeed make it very likely that mages would generally have higher literacy rates.

I would propose here that while the 70% illiteracy rate may or may not represent mages, what constitutes average for Ley Line Walkers in particular is what is common for them to have. What is common among all Ley Line walkers is their O.C.C. skills. So while a Ley Line Walker can be literate and it may be more common for Ley Line Walkers than the general populace to be literate, that does not automatically translate into it being average for them.

[The Beast]

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

You are quite possibly correct there. It doesn't say whether the 70% is supposed to apply to mages or to people overall in that passage.
It could well be describing the overall population, which would indeed make it very likely that mages would generally have higher literacy rates.

RMB says that it’s about 70% of mages that are illiterate.

[Cybermancer]

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

You are quite possibly correct there. It doesn't say whether the 70% is supposed to apply to mages or to people overall in that passage.
It could well be describing the overall population, which would indeed make it very likely that mages would generally have higher literacy rates.

RMB says that it’s about 70% of mages that are illiterate.

What does the RUE say?

[Killer Cyborg]

The second issue with the quote is it is actually referring to the general "most people" when it mentions the illiteracy rate of "about 70%", and only mentions that is includes many practitioners of magic - this allows for a lowers illiteracy rating strictly among practitioners of magic, which can be applied specifically to the LLW (nothing bars them from gaining the skill)

You are quite possibly correct there. It doesn't say whether the 70% is supposed to apply to mages or to people overall in that passage.
It could well be describing the overall population, which would indeed make it very likely that mages would generally have higher literacy rates.

I would propose here that while the 70% illiteracy rate may or may not represent mages, what constitutes average for Ley Line Walkers in particular is what is common for them to have. What is common among all Ley Line walkers is their O.C.C. skills. So while a Ley Line Walker can be literate and it may be more common for Ley Line Walkers than the general populace to be literate, that does not automatically translate into it being average for them.

Agreed.

[Killer Cyborg]

They moved literacy to the communications skill catagory, and LLW states Radio Basic only. But I would allow him to pick it anyway because I am pretty sure they just forgot to change it when they moved the skill and imported the old class write up.

Fortunately, it's available as a Secondary Skill.

[Malakai]

Now is the part about being "skilled enough" - I would like to pose this another way - "How obtainable are these spells?" Others have called this into question, and indeed, it is a valid question for the LLW. In this, I would like to point to another caster - the Shifter. I am assuming we can all agree that two casters can teach each spells.

They can, but as a rule they don't.
Not with spells of that high of a level, at least.

RUE 190
"Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magic societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo and (the former) Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught. These generally include most spells above leverl 10. The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

People join guilds in order to learn spells, because guilds are one of the best and easiest ways to learn spells- and guilds won't teach you anything over level 6 unless you perform an "incredible" feat for them.

An individual Shifter might consider trading his 11the level spell to a LLW, but probably not because SELLING that spell would net him 1 million credits, and it's unlikely that whatever spell(s) he was trading it for would be worth it.

Ahh, but it depends on how you interpret that, now doesn't it. Try this parsing:

"Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magic societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo and (the former) Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught." = of the spells known, there will be some that are not freely shared."

Some does not mean all, or even most, so while there are likely spells that are closely guarded secrets, others would be much more likely to trade. So, which ones are closely guarded and which are available -

"These generally include most spells above level 10. The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

OK, now we have "Even in open magic societies, some spells are not freely shared - guarded secrets that are rarely taught, and generally above 10th level."

Now, how you take the next line brings up an interesting issue - is it to be directly associated with the preceding one - i.e. is it saying "among those spells that are closely-guarded secrets, levels 1-4 are easiest to learn, followed by 5-7, etc" r is it a general observation of all spells? Something to think about.

Either way, Create Magic Scroll is 11th level, so it stands to have a good chance of being grouped with those "closely guarded secrets"*. But consider this - The spell, in and of itself, does not allow the caster to cast anything new - they still have the same spell-list to choose from. Given other posters mentioning of the impracticality of scrolls in combat, it would seem as if this might not warrant being placed within that grouping of "closely guarded secrets". Indeed, for the very reason mentioned - not wanting your prized spells to be learned by someone else - you might WANT other casters to know this spell, in the possibility that THEY would inscribe THEIR hard-won spell knowledge on them and YOU might be able to glean the workings of said spell by procuring such a scroll.


[*for what it's worth, it would stand to reason that the spell Energy Sphere would be harder to acquire because it DOES allow for a notable advantage in combat or other contests, as it provides the ability to carry much greater pools of PPE for casting - just trying to be fair in the assessment]

[Killer Cyborg]

Now is the part about being "skilled enough" - I would like to pose this another way - "How obtainable are these spells?" Others have called this into question, and indeed, it is a valid question for the LLW. In this, I would like to point to another caster - the Shifter. I am assuming we can all agree that two casters can teach each spells.

They can, but as a rule they don't.
Not with spells of that high of a level, at least.

RUE 190
"Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magic societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo and (the former) Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught. These generally include most spells above leverl 10. The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

People join guilds in order to learn spells, because guilds are one of the best and easiest ways to learn spells- and guilds won't teach you anything over level 6 unless you perform an "incredible" feat for them.

An individual Shifter might consider trading his 11the level spell to a LLW, but probably not because SELLING that spell would net him 1 million credits, and it's unlikely that whatever spell(s) he was trading it for would be worth it.

Ahh, but it depends on how you interpret that, now doesn't it. Try this parsing:

"Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open magic societies like Lazlo, New Lazlo and (the former) Tolkeen, there are some spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught." = of the spells known, there will be some that are not freely shared."

Some does not mean all, or even most, so while there are likely spells that are closely guarded secrets, others would be much more likely to trade.

So, which ones are closely guarded and which are available -

"These generally include most spells above level 10. The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

OK, now we have "Even in open magic societies, some spells are not freely shared - guarded secrets that are rarely taught, and generally above 10th level."

"Most" spells above 10th level.

Now, how you take the next line brings up an interesting issue - is it to be directly associated with the preceding one - i.e. is it saying "among those spells that are closely-guarded secrets, levels 1-4 are easiest to learn, followed by 5-7, etc" r is it a general observation of all spells? Something to think about.

Not sure what you're saying.

Either way, Create Magic Scroll is 11th level, so it stands to have a good chance of being grouped with those "closely guarded secrets"*. But consider this - The spell, in and of itself, does not allow the caster to cast anything new - they still have the same spell-list to choose from.

It allows them to cast a potentially powerful 11th level spell: Create Magic Scroll.

Given other posters mentioning of the impracticality of scrolls in combat, it would seem as if this might not warrant being placed within that grouping of "closely guarded secrets". Indeed, for the very reason mentioned - not wanting your prized spells to be learned by someone else - you might WANT other casters to know this spell, in the possibility that THEY would inscribe THEIR hard-won spell knowledge on them and YOU might be able to glean the workings of said spell by procuring such a scroll.

Possibly, but unlikely in most situations.
Because Create Magic Scroll is still a 11th spell, and mages hoard their secrets.

At any rate, none of that adds up to a 5th level mage knowing that spell on average.

[Lenwen]

Possibly, but unlikely in most situations.
Because Create Magic Scroll is still a 11th spell, and mages hoard their secrets.

At any rate, none of that adds up to a 5th level mage knowing that spell on average.

Sadly after reading up on alotta the magic stuff I have to ceed this point.

It IS possible for a 5th lvl LLW to have spells far exceeding his own current lvl, and even be able to cast them.

But in all level playing fields, that is by far and away not going to be close to the norm.

[Cybermancer]

Now, how you take the next line brings up an interesting issue - is it to be directly associated with the preceding one - i.e. is it saying "among those spells that are closely-guarded secrets, levels 1-4 are easiest to learn, followed by 5-7, etc" r is it a general observation of all spells? Something to think about.

Sentances grouped into paragraphs are related/associated to each other. It's a rule of good writing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Possibly, but unlikely in most situations.
Because Create Magic Scroll is still a 11th spell, and mages hoard their secrets.

At any rate, none of that adds up to a 5th level mage knowing that spell on average.

Sadly after reading up on alotta the magic stuff I have to ceed this point.

It IS possible for a 5th lvl LLW to have spells far exceeding his own current lvl, and even be able to cast them.

But in all level playing fields, that is by far and away not going to be close to the norm.

Exactly.
On the other hand, if you want a PC or NPC to have a few scrolls, go to town.

[Malakai]

Now, how you take the next line brings up an interesting issue - is it to be directly associated with the preceding one - i.e. is it saying "among those spells that are closely-guarded secrets, levels 1-4 are easiest to learn, followed by 5-7, etc" r is it a general observation of all spells? Something to think about.

Sentances grouped into paragraphs are related/associated to each other. It's a rule of good writing.

I understand that - the entire paragraph is about the availability of magic spells and how such knowledge is guarded, so the question comes as if it is referring directly to the preceding sentence (which means that is is referring to those same "guarded spells" or if is referring to spells in general. In other words, which of the following is it?:

"There are some spells that are guarded secrets. These (referring to the "some spells") generally include most above 10th level. (Of these guarded spells, ) The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret"

or

"There are some spells that are guarded secrets. These (referring to the "some spells") generally include most above 10th level. (Of spells that are taught openly, ) The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret"

See, the problem with the second interpretation is, it seems to imply that any spell above level 7 is a magic secret, which contradicts the previous line (as there are more spells of levels 8-10 than there are 11th-Legend). The first also tends to imply that most spell knowledge is not so guarded in open magic communities, and give the possibility of higher levels spells, up to 10th level and reasonably some even higher, are more readily available in said communities. This also doesn't contradict the first line, which speaks of spell knowledge in general being guarded by "most mages" - since most mages do not live within these specific and uncommon (compared to typical cities in RIFTS) communities.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, how you take the next line brings up an interesting issue - is it to be directly associated with the preceding one - i.e. is it saying "among those spells that are closely-guarded secrets, levels 1-4 are easiest to learn, followed by 5-7, etc" r is it a general observation of all spells? Something to think about.

Sentances grouped into paragraphs are related/associated to each other. It's a rule of good writing.

I understand that - the entire paragraph is about the availability of magic spells and how such knowledge is guarded, so the question comes as if it is referring directly to the preceding sentence (which means that is is referring to those same "guarded spells" or if is referring to spells in general. In other words, which of the following is it?:

"There are some spells that are guarded secrets. These (referring to the "some spells") generally include most above 10th level. (Of these guarded spells, ) The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret"

or

"There are some spells that are guarded secrets. These (referring to the "some spells") generally include most above 10th level. (Of spells that are taught openly, ) The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7. Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret"

See, the problem with the second interpretation is, it seems to imply that any spell above level 7 is a magic secret, which contradicts the previous line (as there are more spells of levels 8-10 than there are 11th-Legend).

Which previous line are you talking about?



In any case, I'd break it down like this:
"There are some spells that are guarded secrets."
All that's saying is (some spells) = (guarded secrets).

"These generally include most above 10th level."

"These" refers back to the subject of the previous sentence, the "some spells" that equal "guarded secrets."

The easiest spells to find are levels 1-4, followed by levels 5-7.

"The easiest spells to find" is a new subject, that does not relate to the previous subjects of "some spells"/"Guarded Secrets."

"Beyond this, the secrets of magic are just that, secret."

Anything past 7th level is a secret.
(Note, however, that they're not necessarily guarded secrets, unlike the stuff of level 10 or higher)

[Malakai]

The Previous line being "These generally include most spells above level 10" -

And as I am re-reading it now, things are getting a bit . . . . less specific than I had originally thought

Let's see, from all Invocations there are SOME spells that are guarded secrets. CHECK
Guarded secrets generally include most spells above 10th level - this does not mean that most guarded secrets are above 10th level, however - that's where my logic was faulty.

Grrrr . . . ..

So now you're saying we have, in terms of availability to learn:
Easy - levels 1-4
Not-So-Easy - level 5-7
Secret - Levels 8+
Guarded Secret - Selection of levels 8+, including most from levels 11+

I'm not sure I agree with differentiating the secrets from the guarded secrets - I can just picture two bookcases, one with a golem standing by guarding what's on that particular set of shelves but letting the rest be pilfered if the book cases are found, since those aren't "guarded secrets" - But I can see where that idea would come from. I, personally, prefer a more "available" interpretation - feeling that casting times and PPE requirements make for enough of limiting factor.

Slightly off-topic, but pertaining to the availability of higher-level spells:

I mean, one of the things that Spellcasters don't benefit as much from is the looting - It's hard to loot spell knowledge and such, whereas the tech-classes can usually benefit immediately after a battle. And while they can certainly sell the equipments as well as anyone else, if they don't have the desired stuff to spend it on - spells - it's just sitting there. Throwing a few scrolls or such could give them the opportunity to learn something after a battle, at the risk of losing the scroll (i.e. the character can save the scroll and make use of the spell once, or risk it and try to learn it to be able to use it whenever). This allows the GM to present possible spell rewards without having to resort to the ubiquitous magic shop or wise, old caster. And given the original post, I don't recall the poster mentioning that the LLW had to be the one MAKING the scrolls - Perhaps they should be more prevalent than what might come to mind.

[Killer Cyborg]

So now you're saying we have, in terms of availability to learn:
Easy - levels 1-4
Not-So-Easy - level 5-7
Secret - Levels 8+
Guarded Secret - Selection of levels 8+, including most from levels 11+

That's how I read it, yes.

I'm not sure I agree with differentiating the secrets from the guarded secrets- I can just picture two bookcases, one with a golem standing by guarding what's on that particular set of shelves but letting the rest be pilfered if the book cases are found, since those aren't "guarded secrets" - But I can see where that idea would come from. I, personally, prefer a more "available" interpretation - feeling that casting times and PPE requirements make for enough of limiting factor.

I think that a "guarded secret" is kind of like "double-secret probation."

one of the things that Spellcasters don't benefit as much from is the looting - It's hard to loot spell knowledge and such, whereas the tech-classes can usually benefit immediately after a battle.

I'm going to stop you right there, because you're creating an artificial divide between "mages" and "tech classes" when it comes to loot.
The party gets a new Wilk's 457 rifle, who benefits?
Whoever ends up with it, which could well be the mage- because mages can, will, and DO use tech items, even/especially weapons.

And while they can certainly sell the equipments as well as anyone else, if they don't have the desired stuff to spend it on - spells - it's just sitting there. Throwing a few scrolls or such could give them the opportunity to learn something after a battle, at the risk of losing the scroll (i.e. the character can save the scroll and make use of the spell once, or risk it and try to learn it to be able to use it whenever). This allows the GM to present possible spell rewards without having to resort to the ubiquitous magic shop or wise, old caster.

Scrolls can indeed be a nice treasure for mages. So can TW items, talismans, and other stuff, in addition to the normal loot.
But I wouldn't recommend them as a constant reward- mages are already taken care of.

Mages (most of them, I believe, as of RUE) automatically gain spells as they go up in level.
Name one tech-oriented class that automatically gains new guns/bombs/vehicles/gadgets simply for leveling up.
Also, mages gain increased effects just by leveling up.
Name one tech-oriented class that automatically gains increased range and damage with their weapons, or increased duration for weapons with a stunning effect.

A 10th level LLW who sticks to his preferred attack spell, Call Lightning, will be inflicting 10d6 MD per attack. A 10th level Scholar who sticks to his preferred weapon, a Wilk's 320, will still be inflicting 1d6 MD.
(Of course, there's nothing saying that a 10th level scholar can't just pick up a Wilk's 457 and inflict 1d6x10 MD at first level... but there's nothing saying that a mage can't do the same thing.)

Instead of scrolls, I prefer to interject the occasional actual spell-book. Sometimes as a book, sometimes on disk, sometimes in a more bizarre medium.
But scrolls are decent too, here or there.

And given the original post, I don't recall the poster mentioning that the LLW had to be the one MAKING the scrolls - Perhaps they should be more prevalent than what might come to mind.

The LLW doesn't have to be the one making them, but they're rare enough that the average number of scrolls would be effectively zero.
And I think that's a good thing.
It's scarcity that makes something a good treasure to find, not commonness- the rarer scrolls are, the more joy for the party when they find one.

[rbm10101]

maybe 1-4
Probibly healing and other after battle useful spells.

Literacy is a Technical Skill
Ley Line Walker/Rifter get technical ( any @+5% )
take Literacy
problem solved

[Akashic Soldier]

Considering the LLW's ability to draw ambient PPE from a Line or even a Nexus.

And thier ability to use Energy Sphere to store vast amounts of PPE.

And the spell : Create Scroll .

How many scrolls on average would you guys think a lvl 5+ LLW would actually have on him at any given time?

The average Ley Line Walker?

None. Not only is Create Scroll an incredibly high level spell and so VERY rare (refer to the avaibility of spells), but on top of that scrolls on Rifts Earth are VERY rare (refer to the write up on scrolls in the Pursuit of Magic section of R:UE).

So, I'd say 0. Zip. Zilch. The average Ley Line Walker, wouldn't have any. Plus, since he has such a large P.P.E. base and, as you observed, can store vast amounts of P.P.E. than scrolls practically have no use. I am aware that they allow you to cast higher levels spells faster. However, since its only about (on average for a 5th level character) 5 to 7 seconds faster, than I'd think most Practitioners of Magic wouldn't bother. I know that isn't the answer you want to hear, but think about it for a minute... magic is an extremely closely guarded secret (especially high level magic). However, you can learn spells from scrolls. So, if another practitioner of magic got their hands on one of your scrolls (a successful pick pockets skill check is all that is really needed if they're smart), than they can steal one of your spells. It might not seem like a big deal, but it certainly is to the average practitioner of magic. Especially if they are a member of a guild and they accidentally leak one of their magical secrets to another guild, people die over that kind of thing.

[rbm10101]

Here is my opinion on the scrolls or no scrolls matter. The GM has the final say.
Here is my point of view though.

Scrolls are horrible expensive( the high level ones are way more expensive than cases of mini-missiles ). Rifts Ultimate Edition page 190 in the paragraph that starts with Purchasing Magic. If the players want to purchase horribly expensive scrolls and use them in combat then by all means let them spend there money how they want. I would personally learn the spell before I wasted it in a combat or other fashion.

The power armor pilot can with one attack can launch a volley of missiles doing gads and gads of damage with the flick of a trigger switch. When he is out of missles he has to resupply with currency and when available. Not everyone however wants to play the tech laden power armor pilot.
The average man of arms with "Current" books can with the flick of a trigger do 1d6x10 with a burst of some high powered energy rifle. When he runs out of e-clips he purchases more or for a nominal fee gets them recharged. Again not everyone wants to play the man at arms type.

Some people WANT to play the Ley Line Walker or similar classes, magic is part of the game and one of the reasons the setting is the way it is.

The 5th level Ley Line Walker that was constantly mentioned in post above is at an advantage and a disadvantage. At most he has 3d6x10 + 20 + PE +4 levels of 3d6 PPE. Lets say he rolled max and has 180+20+30+4 times 18 ( 302 PPE ) a very lucky Ley Line Walker indeed. Once it is gone he simply meditates for 20 uninterupted hours at 15ppe each hour or goes to a Ley Line to recharge. In the meantime (while he has no PPE ) he is a sitting duck. Do you force the man at arms to not carry additional E-clips? Did you force the power armor pilot to not have extra mini missile reloads? Why not allow the Ley Line Walker a "recharge" or something he can do when he runs out. Let him purchase low level scrolls so that he is not completely useless.Other than shooting things with his 2d6 energy pistol. You could always give him a JA-12 or similar buy that is not really his niche.

Is it unreasonable to assume the Ley Line Walker would spend his share of the loot to purchase goods that would benefit his class (i.e techno wizard items, magic items, scrolls, etc etc )? Wouldn't the black market that sells e-clips and mini-missiles be just as likely to sell items attractive to a Magic O.C.C?

Lets assume he has gotten only 3-1st level spells, 3-2nd,3-3rd,3-4th, his starting spells, and 1 (1-2) 1 (1-3) 1 (1-4) and 1 (1-5) level spell, from leveling. He will be horribly outmatched by the others in his party piloting power armor, shooting JA-12 rifles or similiar. Not to mention his physical stats are probably suffering because he put the high stats in more MAGIC ORIENTED stats. The Ley Line Walker is not a combat machine and is majorly dependent on his magic.

Rifts is by far a game and as such should be fun for all that play it. If you want a game that is Magic poor then be up front with your players before the campaign starts and WARN them that certain things will be rare. If you want a game that is balanced then make things available for all players and set your bias at the door. It is a game after all and should be fun for all. Unless of course you like losing players and constantly having to find new ones.

In closing the above is my point of view, you do not have to abide by it. GM your game how you want to. If you aren't the GM then abide by the GM rules.

[Akashic Soldier]

If we believe Rifts: Black Market there is only about a 5 or 10% chance of a magic store actually stocking a magical scroll, let alone a high level one. For me, its less a matter of "equality" (magic isn't equal), as much as it is role playing and the setting. The setting is that they are rare. Plus, for the record, I have never seen a practitioner of magic run out of P.P.E. in any of the Game I've run, and I've tried to run them out using minion-style NPCs on several occasions. The ONLY time I have seen people even get low, is when they are casting massively powerful spells; such as dimensional portal (500 P.P.E.).

Plus, considering a practitioner of magic, can simply ask his companions for more power or siphon P.P.E. from his enemies to cast spells, I don't think its much of an issue.

Plus, 70% of practitioners of magic on Rifts Earth are illiterate. Which means, that "on average" they cannot even read. There is a 40% minority that can read. However, of them, how many are going to have the spell?

Crack open Pursuit of Magic and look at its availability, then take into account that in addition to that it is specifically listed as "rare" (so lets assume, half that), and we're looking at about (off the top of my head) 2.5% of the 40%... which is about...? 0.01% of all mages on Rifts Earth. I wouldn't call that average.

[Shark_Force]

If we believe Rifts: Black Market there is only about a 5 or 10% chance of a magic store actually stocking a magical scroll, let alone a high level one. For me, its less a matter of "equality" (magic isn't equal), as much as it is role playing and the setting. The setting is that they are rare. Plus, for the record, I have never seen a practitioner of magic run out of P.P.E. in any of the Game I've run, and I've tried to run them out using minion-style NPCs on several occasions. The ONLY time I have seen people even get low, is when they are casting massively powerful spells; such as dimensional portal (500 P.P.E.).

Plus, considering a practitioner of magic, can simply ask his companions for more power or siphon P.P.E. from his enemies to cast spells, I don't think its much of an issue.

Plus, 70% of practitioners of magic on Rifts Earth are illiterate. Which means, that "on average" they cannot even read. There is a 40% minority that can read. However, of them, how many are going to have the spell?

Crack open Pursuit of Magic and look at its availability, then take into account that in addition to that it is specifically listed as "rare" (so lets assume, half that), and we're looking at about (off the top of my head) 2.5% of the 40%... which is about...? 0.01% of all mages on Rifts Earth. I wouldn't call that average.

70% illiterate and 40% literate, eh?

very interesting

(there's a spell to fix that, mind you. also, if that's % of spellcasters, you really should consider that's including things like mystics, which have no formal schooling, and warlocks, which are not particularly trained either. ley line walkers would tend to be taught, and are probably much more likely to have literacy as a skill).

also note: the costs to learn a spell are not the same as the costs for buying scrolls. how much *does* it cost to buy a scroll? no idea. i don't think it's ever listed, with the possible exception of iirc a shop in the old vampire kingdoms book... but buying a scroll is not the same thing as learning a spell in rifts. it will help, of course, but it won't get the job done totally.

also also note: this is a zombie thread. why did we need this years-old discussion revived anyways?

[Akashic Soldier]

70% illiterate and 40% literate, eh?

I was watching the new Iron Man movie and multitasking, sorry.

Brain fail.