Forums of the Megaverse®

frogboy wrote:I was in a game last night after a while of not playing and noticed something odd. Every one in the group was getting there butts whipped because all the blows we took were going right threw the armor we had. It got me wondering why there is an armor rating ? I see that in Rifts with the mega damage armor you start out with say 65 MDC, and as you get blasted, your armor gets loses more of its capacity to protect you. Why is this not the case with armor in the PFRPG world ? As it is, armor seams like more of a decoration then an advantage. If I am missing something pleas point it out.

It's a somewhat common complaint that with powerful parties and high-level characters that Armor Rating makes armor rather useless, because with these groups if a strike roll beats the parry roll, then it's also beaten the AR.
If this is what you're referring to, you might add in AR as a parry/dodge bonus when the defender is actively defending himself/herself.

As to why it's that way, check out the original PFRPG some time Bonuses were fairly hard to come by if you roll attributes by the book. The ARs are a lot more impressive when you don't have high strike bonuses (or parry bonuses).

So KC, what you are "not saying" is that the 2nd ed armor's Ar should be raised by 2-4 points?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So KC, what you are "not saying" is that the 2nd ed armor's Ar should be raised by 2-4 points?

I haven't really crunched any numbers, so I can't say how much it should be raised, but something like that.

Want to make AR go from lame to great in one quick change?

Make it so you have to roll to bypass the armor with only the natural die roll. That way, even if you beat the parry with your bonus, unless the natural roll beats the AR, the damage goes to the armor.

Proseksword wrote:Want to make AR go from lame to great in one quick change?

Make it so you have to roll to bypass the armor with only the natural die roll. That way, even if you beat the parry with your bonus, unless the natural roll beats the AR, the damage goes to the armor.

That way the attacker's skill and abilities don't matter a bit.
A 20th level fighter with PP of 30 has the exact same odds of finding a chink in somebody's armor as a 1st level Peasant with no HTH skill and a PP of 3.

I don't call that great.

We use AR as a form of damage "soak". Leather armour with an AR 10, and 20 SDC can prevent 10 points of damage per hit from transferring through to the wearer, but only up to a maximum of the total 20 SDC of the armour.

Thus:
Fighter A, wearing Leather Armour is hit by Fighter B with a longsword.
On the first successful hit, the damage inflicted by Fighter B is 12 points; 10 of which are absorbed by the armour (reducing the SDC from 20 to 10) and the remaining 2 points pass through to the wearer's SDC.
On the Second successful hit, the damage inflicted by Fighter B is 6 points; being completely absorbed by the armour, further reducing the SDC from 10 to 4. Once the armour's SDC is reduced to zero, the AR is no longer effective.

Skilled combatants can bypass this resistance by making called shots to body parts that are not protected by the armour, at the appropriate penalties, of course.

This works fairly well, but I can forsee a problem if someone were to acquire a magically indestructible suit of armour or shield. Likewise, this can make combat last a lot longer, and the players tend to go through armour much faster than before.

frogboy wrote:Then why not just throw out the AR, And say for example a full suite of studded leather with an ar of 13 (or what ever) and SDC of 38 Would now just be Studded leather with 38 SDC. Mobob the destroyer hits umbob of light with a 16, So umbob loses some armor SDC and some personnel SDC. Or if the guy rolls an 11 the sdc still comes off the armor and so on. Basicley make it like a shield. Of coarse, a natural 20 is still Paine and death and all that .

Hm.
Maybe what you're looking for is something like this:
-All armor SDC has to be depleted before the wearer is harmed (except for special attacks), as with MDC armor.
-The armor rating counts as a Natural AR for the armor itself. So if you get stabbed for 10 points of damage, that 10 points hits the armor. If your strike roll was above the AR, then the armor loses 10 SDC. If the strike roll was under the AR, then the armor takes no damage at all (and neither does the wearer).

I use the "soak" rule so that armour doesn't equate to a force field. Leather Armour will only absorb damage 10 points at a time, so a particularly bad hit (more than 10 points) still damages the wearer to some degree. Otherwise a Palladin with a suit of Full-plate would have 160 SDC worth of protection from every attack, and be able to stride into a battle virtually invulnerable to the threat. Adding a Natural AR to that mix would only make the Full-plate MORE indestructible, as any attack roll less than 18 would do no damage whatsoever.

With my method, he is protected from attacks that do less than 18 points, as long as the SDC of the armour's SDC lasts; but a hit of 19 points of damage transfers a little through to the wearer, reminding him that he isn't invulnerable, just mostly wrapped in metal.

Killer Cyborg wrote:That way the attacker's skill and abilities don't matter a bit.
A 20th level fighter with PP of 30 has the exact same odds of finding a chink in somebody's armor as a 1st level Peasant with no HTH skill and a PP of 3.

I don't call that great.

[/quote]

While what you are saying makes sense to me, the rule as I use it makes more sense than a level 10 fighter with high P.P. being able to put his sword through the shoulder or neck joints with almost every blow. Palladium rules have always been fast & loose, not perfect simulations of actual combat. I'd rather armor be worth something at mid to high levels then be concerned by the fact that a super fighter can't find the chink in the armor of some schmo. The couple of extra actions it'll take super knight to kill a level one dude is worth it to make armor more effective, at least in my opinion.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:That way the attacker's skill and abilities don't matter a bit.
A 20th level fighter with PP of 30 has the exact same odds of finding a chink in somebody's armor as a 1st level Peasant with no HTH skill and a PP of 3.

I don't call that great.

While what you are saying makes sense to me, the rule as I use it makes more sense than a level 10 fighter with high P.P. being able to put his sword through the shoulder or neck joints with almost every blow. Palladium rules have always been fast & loose, not perfect simulations of actual combat. I'd rather armor be worth something at mid to high levels then be concerned by the fact that a super fighter can't find the chink in the armor of some schmo. The couple of extra actions it'll take super knight to kill a level one dude is worth it to make armor more effective, at least in my opinion.

I don't think it makes more sense, I think it's just as broken (or more so) just in a different way.
But as long as it works for you and yours, go for it.

I mean, I can see your point if you're dealing with full plate armor or something, but cloth armor giving attackers an automatic 30% chance of not hurting the target is too severe for my tastes.

Try adding the body armor AR to the number needed to hit and see if that helps. Basically it turns the AR of body armor into more of a range where attacks will be absorbed. So consider someone wearing body armor with an AR of 12:

In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 would miss. A roll of 5-16 would hit the armor (12+4) and anything 17 and above would hit the wearer.

In ranged combat, a roll of 1-8 would miss. A roll of 9-20 would hit the armor (12+8) and anything 21 and above would hit the wearer.

And so on.

You still add bonuses to hit with the rolls, giving someone with more skill or talent a better chance of bypassing the AR.

Alternatively, you could just have all attacks hit the body armor, since by default all attacks hit the main body by default. Only deal with AR during called shots, and consider (AR-12) the penalty or bonus to the default called shot number (12).

We used to use a system with an armopur reduction thing.

EG: AR 10, SDC 50

The armour can only absorb 10 points in one hit, the rest goes to the wearer, once SDC is gone, all damage goes to the wearer.

Not the most elegant system i have ever come up with but it did seem to work, but then again i was playing 1st edition.