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Rogue_Scientist wrote:This topic spun of something somebody mentioned in a thread around here a few weeks ago, and from my ongoing interest in physics and engineering. Prepare for some nerdy nitpicking.

Particle Beams aren't really "energy" blasts.

From the wiki on the subject wrote:Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies, usually expressed in terms of center-of-mass energy, by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. Thus, in terms of their scale, particles can be made to perform as powerful missiles for bombarding other particles in a target substance or for colliding with each other as they assume intersecting orbits.

IE, a particle beam really uses "energy" to accelerate matter in a way very similar to a Rail Gun. Except instead of metal slugs or rings, the gun shoots sub-atomic particles.

The article continues to state the following:

From the wiki on the subject wrote:The general idea of particle-beam weaponry is to hit a target object with a stream of accelerated particles moving at near the speed of light and therefore carrying tremendous kinetic energy; the particles transfer their kinetic energy to the atoms in the molecules of the target upon striking, much as a cue ball transfers its energy to the racked balls in billiards, thus exciting the target's atoms and superheating the target object in a short time, leading to explosion either of the surface layer or the interior of the target.

Therefore, I'm considering a house rule that Particle Beams inflict half kinetic damage, and half energy damage (heat/plasma).

I feel this gives P-Beam weapons an interesting niche in Rifts. Lighter and more portable than most rail-guns, Particle Beams tend to have shorter range but still pack a solid "punch". They're fairly expensive, eat energy clips, and tend to be relegated to the heavy rifles and PA/Robot/Vehicle weaponry (with the exception of the 2-3 P-Beam pistols) or other applications where they can be powered by a nuclear battery.

For groups like Triax and the Coalition, (and GMs with unruly PCs), it would have applications as a counter to spells like Invulnerability and Impervious to Energy. Still wouldn't do bubkis against Vampires, Werewolves, etc, but I feel the house rule makes P-Beams a much more viable and useful option for both PCs and NPCs.

"What say you?"

Killer Cyborg wrote:I say it sounds a lot like how lasers work.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Lasers emit light waves. Electromagnetic radiation. Energy. They're not emitting matter, they're emitting energy that can affect matter. If I understand correctly, it does damage by transferring energy to the electrons of nearby matter, causing molecular bonds to break down. This generates a thermal "cutting" effect.

Whereas a particle blasts (and yes, Ion beams, which are a type of particle beams) literally use particles/ions as "bullets". They emit matter, not energy.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Lasers emit light waves. Electromagnetic radiation. Energy. They're not emitting matter, they're emitting energy that can affect matter. If I understand correctly, it does damage by transferring energy to the electrons of nearby matter, causing molecular bonds to break down. This generates a thermal "cutting" effect.

Whereas a particle blasts (and yes, Ion beams, which are a type of particle beams) literally use particles/ions as "bullets". They emit matter, not energy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Lasers emit light waves. Electromagnetic radiation. Energy. They're not emitting matter, they're emitting energy that can affect matter. If I understand correctly, it does damage by transferring energy to the electrons of nearby matter, causing molecular bonds to break down. This generates a thermal "cutting" effect.

Whereas a particle blasts (and yes, Ion beams, which are a type of particle beams) literally use particles/ions as "bullets". They emit matter, not energy.

What do you think that light IS?
It's photons.
Particles.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Lasers emit light waves. Electromagnetic radiation. Energy. They're not emitting matter, they're emitting energy that can affect matter. If I understand correctly, it does damage by transferring energy to the electrons of nearby matter, causing molecular bonds to break down. This generates a thermal "cutting" effect.

Whereas a particle blasts (and yes, Ion beams, which are a type of particle beams) literally use particles/ions as "bullets". They emit matter, not energy.

What do you think that light IS?
It's photons.
Particles.

But light is also a wave.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Lasers emit light waves. Electromagnetic radiation. Energy. They're not emitting matter, they're emitting energy that can affect matter. If I understand correctly, it does damage by transferring energy to the electrons of nearby matter, causing molecular bonds to break down. This generates a thermal "cutting" effect.

Whereas a particle blasts (and yes, Ion beams, which are a type of particle beams) literally use particles/ions as "bullets". They emit matter, not energy.

What do you think that light IS?
It's photons.
Particles.

But light is also a wave.

Lobo wrote:IRL I'm not really sure how much kinetic energy it really imparts, "tremendous kinetic energy" is relative. It reads like it does the same thing as a laser. This sounds cool but how much mass is there to actually transfer kinetic energy and physically impart massive damage like a bullet does? There's lots of acceleration but if the mass is measured in many 00000's after the decimal then it still doesn't add up to much force. It seems like the explosive transfer of heat energy is the real damage dealer. Remember we have particles pass through us daily, they might be attributed to some forms of cancer but we don't immediately die from them.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:PS- Looking over the results..."Pretty lights" and "I hate science" were disturbingly prevalent choices.

Wyrmbear wrote:Hey, I voted for pretty lights because it's all about the lightshow, the action, and the story.

I just can't understand why anyone would need a perfect, logical, scientifically sound explanation for every aspect of a roleplaying game.

argos wrote:Im not suprised there is a nice amount of support for this house rule cuz it changes stuff up. But if it were to become the new canon rule i think people would definitly have a different opinion.

When i think of energy weapon i think whether or not the weapon is kinetic basically. Or to put it more simply, what causes the damage. Technically a rail gun is an energy weapon cuz it uses kinetic energy to do damage. That isnt how we look at thinks tho. We look at the object being fired as doing the damage. Its the railgin round doing damage. With particle beams we look at heat transfer as what is doin the damage. IMO that is why we call it an energy weapon

argos wrote:

Natasha wrote:This energy is different from the kind of energy we speak about when we speak about "energy weapons".

I agree, whoch was the point of what i was saying.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I say it sounds a lot like how lasers work.

Lobo wrote:I have toyed around with this idea myself. I seem to recall a super power under PU1 or PU3, alter-self light IIRC. It was a particle/photon beam and it said it did physical not energy damage. So that might be a game reference for your idea.

IRL I'm not really sure how much kinetic energy it really imparts, "tremendous kinetic energy" is relative. It reads like it does the same thing as a laser. This sounds cool but how much mass is there to actually transfer kinetic energy and physically impart massive damage like a bullet does? There's lots of acceleration but if the mass is measured in many 00000's after the decimal then it still doesn't add up to much force. It seems like the explosive transfer of heat energy is the real damage dealer. Remember we have particles pass through us daily, they might be attributed to some forms of cancer but we don't immediately die from them.

Lobo wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Lobo wrote:I have toyed around with this idea myself. I seem to recall a super power under PU1 or PU3, alter-self light IIRC. It was a particle/photon beam and it said it did physical not energy damage. So that might be a game reference for your idea.

IRL I'm not really sure how much kinetic energy it really imparts, "tremendous kinetic energy" is relative. It reads like it does the same thing as a laser. This sounds cool but how much mass is there to actually transfer kinetic energy and physically impart massive damage like a bullet does? There's lots of acceleration but if the mass is measured in many 00000's after the decimal then it still doesn't add up to much force. It seems like the explosive transfer of heat energy is the real damage dealer. Remember we have particles pass through us daily, they might be attributed to some forms of cancer but we don't immediately die from them.

Actually, the difference in damage is quite possibly tremendous, comparing a simple wave/particle stream (L.A.S.E.R.) made up of practically massless particles, versus a simultaneous high-energy/hard particle stream like a Particle Beam.

IIRC, in the Wiki Article on the recent "War of the Worlds" remake with Cruise and Fanning, the 'atomizing' weapons that the Martians were using were demonstrating effects comparable to an ion beam..and as those of us who saw the movie witnessed, the effects of a high-energy/hard particle stream were MUCH more gruesome than a 'mere' laser.

EDIT: Here it is (click on Link).

I'm not sure what that shows? I have read that link before but I still don't get the sense that the damage is from the kinetic energy alone. It seems that the kinetic energy excites molecules by smashing into them and creating a massive heat transfer that causes the target to explode. The electron particle beam heats by the electrical resistance much like an arc welder/cutter.

I did see that one theoretical weapon that states it does damage from kinetic energy alone. And like I said I am not opposed to the idea but from what existing RL science has shown it doesn't seem to work that way. If they make that theoretical weapon and and it blasts large holes in thing without the explosive heat transfer then that would prove the theory.