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Also look at the Jaeger sensor package in Rifter #31.

Icemaster109 wrote:I am GMing a group who is trying to create a specialty merc unit. Their unit's primary function would be to recon and lase targets with a designator and then use precision strikes from aircraft or tank to hit their targets. I am not a huge rifts techie...but I have no clue on how this would work, or if it is even possible. I know the laser designator is in Rifts Merc Ops and says it gives a +3 to strikes but I still have a few questions.

1. What type of missle's will they need? What missles respond to laser targeting?

well, guided missiles mainly. they'd need to have optical guidance options, peferably with laser guidance. since simple laser guidance was possible back n the 70's, you ought ot be able to fit "conversion kits" onto the unguided missiles of RUE, useable only with the designator. these are basically just a camera and small motor on a mobile head. the camera moves to keep the laser designated spot in sight, and thus steers the bomb//rocket. (this version i would give no missile bonuses to)
for the moe dvanced guided mssiles, i'd combine the missile's to strike bonus with the missile firer's bonus, along with the designator's bonus and whatever to strike bonuses the designator user provides. makes for a very accurate strike if you specialize.

2. Tanks? How would laser targeting affect their firing (if at all)? Would the PCs need to call in coordinates? use smoke grenades to mark?

not much. the designator basically puts a spot so missiles can home in on it. so those tanks would need guided mnitions for their cannons, or automated aiming systems for direct fire systems.

3. What would be the bonuse's for using other methods for targeting? Such as simple calling out grid coordinants? using smoke? or even calling in the a detailed description?

smoke is only really good for designating a rough area for air strikes or long range LOS mortar/artillery volleys. it just says "the area around me might have hostiles" and provide a big obvious marker.
calling in co-ordinates is good for all sorts of support, but it's particulalry useful for non-LOS artillery/mortars. it's the functional equivilent of poping smoke in those cases, your just designating a location for the support to fire at. only co-ords are a bit more stealthy than smoke.

in both cases, the bonuses used are going to be the ones provided by the firing unit (i usually append a -4 to strike penalty to non-LOS fire). with a catch. if you have a spotter there waching the incoming hits, they can call in corrections for later shots, increasing the odds of hitting a stationary target. (i'd say, a cumulative +1 to strike bonus after each correction, with the proviso that the spotter needs to be at least somewhat skilled at guaging distance and direction.)

the advantage of using the laser designator for misiles and bombs are that it enables prescision "fire and forget" strikes. the team with the designator just has to keep the laser on target, while the unit firing the missile or dropping the bomb can forget about the weapon and move on to other things.


for more informtion:
wikipedia page on laser guidance
wkipedia page on smart bombs (basic info can also be applied to missiles)
wikipedia page on missile guidance

(i tried to find the scene from clear and present danger where a laser guide GBU-27(IRC) was used to bomb a druglord's home...no luck...

My rules for laser guided missiles (works with bombs too).

Semi-Active Laser Homing (SALH):
This guidance system homes on the reflected light from a laser designator. These missiles are hard to fool and very accurate. The target must be within the visual and line of sight of the director (no over the horizon targeting) and must maintain the laser beam on the target until the missile strikes the target. This means the platform painting the target cannot dodge any attacks or make evasive maneuvers. Some targets with high tech sensors are capable of detecting when they are being targeted.
To strike roll: Natural 5 or better if target is moving. Otherwise Natural 2 or better.
Strike bonus: Ranged strike bonus (If target has a laser reflective surface, missiles are at -9 to strike)
Fire and forget? No
Can be fired at multiple targets? No
Can be jammed? No
Chaff/Flares: Will not work
Called shots? Yes

Icemaster109 wrote:So the advanced guided missiles you mention are the ones listed on RUE pg 257 with the asterix next to them (smart bombs?). Or is that something different?

if you read Missile Strikes on page 364 of RUE, it points out that guided missiles receive a +3 to strike, while "smart bombs" receive a +5. but that these are comparitively rare on the market, and most missiles are unguided (no bonus)
so if your buying "off the rack" you need the guided or smart bomb versions, which are going to be pricier than the normal stuff.
(btw, i usually assume the guided and smart bomb missiles in rifts are a multi-type guidance. with a range of optical (IR, UV contrast, laser, steerable video camera) and non-optical (Radar, with both active an passive options). the user selects the guidance desired before firing. (part of the weapon system skill roll to lock on). smart bombs represent the same missiles, but programmed to switch guidance types should it start to loose lock. i usually give dedicated guidance types (meaning, say, the sidwinder's IR only, or the AMRAAM's radar only) a straight +5, but let ECM and jammers effect them more...)

Likewise, how much would you say a laser guided conversion kit cost on a non guided missle?

much less than the missile itself....the components may vary a bit from what i listed (that was the design of the 70's early smart bombs), but it basically boils down to fitting a camera to the missile and tieing it into the missile in such a way to let it steer itself towards the laser dot.
i'd say...couple hundred credits each for parts and the work itself? i'd also say that it's unlikely Minimissiles could be so converted, but SRM's on up should be possible. i never can find the entry on how much missiles cost, so i can't really give specifics. but the components should be dirt cheap to make for a tech center. i'd suggest having some groups in the game selling conversion kits out of places like merctown, just to make things easier on the players. so they don't have to scround up their own parts.

As for the Jaeger system it says that air strike and mortar can hit at a +10 to strike? So their laser designator is waaay better than others and it can also guide mortar?

the jeager's sensor dome is a bit more complicated and advanced than the others. for one, it's built by triax, and thus probably has tons of computer augmentation to it's spotting. plus the mortar it's spotting for is also a triax product, so one can assume it has a guidance system built in (we've already got such "smart mortars" in development in real life, alongside self-steering artillery rounds and other such things.)
plus the triax robots are all tied together in a battlefield network (item #2 in the robot/PA sensors and equipment, pg 48 of WB5), so that laser is only part of a network of sensor sharing systems that can help make the laser and the firing unit that much better at picking targets.

i don't think so. i'm not even sure where to find the cost of normal missiles (i think they're in mercenaries, but i can't find them. and that was back when all SRM's and up got the +3...)

I'd have to wonder, honestly, how useful something like semi-active laser homing would be in Rifts, where shooting down incoming missiles is a perfectly feasible tactic for those with purely-human reflexes, and the most prevalent military weapon is the weapons-grade laser. The tip of a LGM is a big light-gathering assembly piping faint laser backscatter into sensitive electronics; even just clipping the thing with a weapon-grade laser is going to cook the guidance system...

Qev wrote:I'd have to wonder, honestly, how useful something like semi-active laser homing would be in Rifts, where shooting down incoming missiles is a perfectly feasible tactic for those with purely-human reflexes, and the most prevalent military weapon is the weapons-grade laser. The tip of a LGM is a big light-gathering assembly piping faint laser backscatter into sensitive electronics; even just clipping the thing with a weapon-grade laser is going to cook the guidance system...

funny thing about lasers... they're monochromatic. you can just use a different color for a laser guidance system, filter any others, and not have problems.

Shark_Force wrote:funny thing about lasers... they're monochromatic. you can just use a different color for a laser guidance system, filter any others, and not have problems.

Of course, you're shining this laser at the target, letting them know exactly what wavelength you're using. So using a different wavelength only works the first time you encounter a given opponent.

jedi078 wrote:Can be jammed? No

I wouldn't say they couldn't be jammed. I'd be surprised if Rifts tech didn't have pretty decent laser spoofing tech. Even a simple smokescreen would do a decent job of defeating laser guidance, I should think... you just need to get it deployed in time.

actually, you could screw up laser guidance pretty easy. you just need sensors to tell when your painted, and a bunch of your own designators to aim at things other than you. this would give the missile too many targets to pick from, and decrease the odds of it hitting you.

not exactly an easy defense though...

Will a Laser Designator work with mini missiles?

Ale Golem wrote:Will a Laser Designator work with mini missiles?

I don't think they're considered large enough to carry any guidance systems. Which, considering Rifts cybertech, is a bit silly, but...