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Was the coalition war canon rail roading? The war had a definite end and outcome, but it kind of ruled out PC interaction, like no matter what anyone did this is what is going to happen.

AM I wrong? Did anyone have results that do not match this?

And what about the hell unleashed series? thughts?

wow that was kind of a vehement response, I wonder why?

Sure it was rail roading, but the better question is what, if anything, did you do about it?

KillWatch wrote:Was the coalition war canon rail roading? The war had a definite end and outcome, but it kind of ruled out PC interaction, like no matter what anyone did this is what is going to happen.

AM I wrong? Did anyone have results that do not match this?

And what about the hell unleashed series? thughts?

The way I always treat any sort of metaplot is that it's an alternate universe, and my game is the "Ultimate" version of that world. That way I can use what I like from canon, and disregard/change what I don't. Seems to me this is the only sure way to run a game with a canonical storyline that is continually updated.
As for the war outcome, I say leave it alone (or change as you like) if the war is far from the PCs and is just a backdrop.
If the PCs are in the thick of it, then let them affect the outcome. Even let them prevent the war or decisively end it in the beginning stages if they do something truly brilliant (or truly stupid).

KillWatch wrote:Was the coalition war canon rail roading? The war had a definite end and outcome, but it kind of ruled out PC interaction, like no matter what anyone did this is what is going to happen.

AM I wrong? Did anyone have results that do not match this?

While it was rail-roading to a certain extent, you have to realize what the PCs and the Tolkeenites were up against. The game is assumed that the CS will atleast match the PCs if they bring an army, so as not to tip the balance.

What I mean by this is that if the PCs (for whatever reason) were able to muster an army the size of Larson's Brigade, then the CS would be forced to utilize more resources to achieve victory - which they were capable of doing. They can and would use nukes if it came down to it (and the only reason they didn't against Tolkeen was that magic rendered them useless in the siege).

Basically the job of the GM is to adjudicate to what degree the PCs could help out; the stories in the books assumed a moderate level of success by "special groups" (re: the PCs). It's completely within the game to have a particularily successful group to offer that more Tolkeenites made it through the war, that the CS took longer to recover, that certain important peoples lived where they would have normally died.

But the overall goal of the CWC wasn't to prevent the destruction of Tolkeen (which was inevitable), but rather to offer that even in defeat there can be victory, and there can be heroes. Otherwise the game (for once) takes a remarkably sensible and realistic view; a group of 4-8 somebodies can't win a war single-handedly, as movies would have us believe.

If need-be think of it as a disaster movie, where the meteor is going to strike earth. To believe that you and some other guys can fly up there and blow it up before it strikes earth is foolish; the best you can hope for is to provide some kind of damage-control.

so if one person shot hitler it wouldn't have changed anything?
Kennedy's assassination and take over by LBJ was an inconsequential blip?
What if if the First or even Second Bush was killed in office? Then we would have had Cheney or Quail,...
1 person, 1 bullet can make a world difference. Isn't that the whole reason WW1 and 2 was fought? Political assassinations?
Take out the ground commander and the troops lose morale and, even if they lose-1 to combat rolls, may result in a victory

I found it has a little Rail Roady...as a small group(the PCs) could have a major effect on the war though various means...that the seris doesn't account for. But anytime a gaming company advances the timeline it is dangerous thing to do especialy on a very old game setting. Because as the games are played...things happen...in some peoples games maybe the CS has fallen because of PCs action...or Tolkeen was developed in very different way(which is entirely possible considering what was described of Tolkeen before the war idea came about...etc. Everybody's game is like a alternate universe based on the based product...as they advance the timeline the more divergent more people's games will be removed from the published world and will be less likely to find the books useful thus less likely to buy the books.

what if important intelligence was leaked/discovered

KillWatch wrote:what if important intelligence was leaked/discovered

Or convince the other nations and group to join Tolkeen as they could very well be next...Yeah I know they stated the reason why x stayed neutral...but I don't see why they couldn't change their view.

Or inflitrate the Free Qubec and use magic or psionic to keep them fighting the CS...

Or start a war between the CS and the FoM...

There is alot of things a small group could have done that could effect the outcome of war. The fact that they published the result means in the end it is just a Computer RPG in which you have no effect.

1) It's kind of like dragonlance. In one module Lord Toad was RIGHT THERE being paraded about in the street of a town they had just came into. The game makes no allowance for toades death. Not in game but by just forbidding it. If a bowman got of a good shot or two he would fall and the course of the war would have shifted, even a little bit, and if would give hope to the rebellion.

2) Technology has little or no hope against magic. A spell can be researched and devised to overcome any obstacle

It is the definition of rail roading. It gives you a result with or without your participation

ok one down thank you you are right. It was WW1 with Ferdenand.
WW2 was caused by a german artist couldn't sell his paintings

It's railroading as much as the cataclysm destroying earth in chaos earth is railroading, or even the Mechanoid invasion of Gideon E. We know the outcome but there are still stories to be told. The players can still have an impact on the events, however they are unlikely to be huge enough as to save Tolkeen/Earth/Gideon-E.

Railroading is what "meta-plot" is.
Frankly I prefer my game books to give me setting and plot ideas.

SkyeFyre wrote:It's railroading as much as the cataclysm destroying earth in chaos earth is railroading, or even the Mechanoid invasion of Gideon E. We know the outcome but there are still stories to be told. The players can still have an impact on the events, however they are unlikely to be huge enough as to save Tolkeen/Earth/Gideon-E.

No that's the setting.
Rifts already had a setting.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

SkyeFyre wrote:It's railroading as much as the cataclysm destroying earth in chaos earth is railroading, or even the Mechanoid invasion of Gideon E. We know the outcome but there are still stories to be told. The players can still have an impact on the events, however they are unlikely to be huge enough as to save Tolkeen/Earth/Gideon-E.

No that's the setting.
Rifts already had a setting.

Right, as being a location and time for a story to unfold all three are settings. A setting can be defined as not only a location and ones surroundings but a time period. Location? Tolkeen. Environment? A war torn city. Time? 105 to 109PA. After this we experience a change to the setting much like books 2 and 3 of the MIT and even the dark ages of CE. So instead of choosing not only a location for your story but you are also choosing a time, and time changes everything. In the very description of Rifts Earth as of the very beginning it has been stated that cities come and go. The world is chaotic and ever changing, so you were all warned that these elements were part of the "setting" from the very beginning. Cities disappearing for various reasons is part of the predetermined setting.

Dr. Doom III wrote:Railroading is what "meta-plot" is.
Frankly I prefer my game books to give me setting and plot ideas.

Ya, and set things up like World Book 23 did... so the pcs can have an effect on the game-world.

setting will tell me what is happening, rail roading is telling me what will happen despite my efforts

I think you have all beat this dead horse into pate. KW is not going to change his mind and it doesn't matter anyway.

Killwatch - Sometimes a game company chooses to alter its game setting; if you don't like it, change it or ignore it.

Anyone else - Sometimes settings change and you have all expressed that more than once, but KW wants PB to have railroaded him; let it be. Have fun.

RIFTS is all about alternate dimensions. Each of us has our own RIFTS Earth. Enjoy.

wow that's pretty simple Beatme

it simply IS railroading. I don't know why I didn't put it into those words before but there you go. it is what it is. But why is it?

if this is some grand scheme by palladium to change the setting, what is the follow through? I haven't seen it. Doesn't mean it isn't there but why change it if there is nothing coming, no major change? Ok the coalition won (if you say so), now what?

and why do you comment now?
How is it a dead horse for you if you have only just posted?
and if you have been following, why?
How is this any concern of yours if you have offered no opinion other than to say that you have nor real opinion, and that we can can accept or ignore what we wish, and we know the alternate dimensions bit which has already been said and understood, Is this a post count for you? is that you're insight which is suppose to make us all go, oh yeah hey thanks never thought of that,...
The question was posed for you opinions and discussion. Your post doesn't attempt to give an opinion. We understand what we CAN do. But what do YOU think? How do you feel about it, personally?

and by posting you have given new life to the subject which was dead and not moving going nowhere so yes it was a dead horse, which you have revived, good on you

But again thanks for whatever your post was suppose to do

It really IS pretty simple. You believe it to be railroading; everyone else doesn't.

KillWatch wrote:it simply IS railroading. I don't know why I didn't put it into those words before but there you go. it is what it is. But why is it?

Why did TSR have the war in Forgotten Realms that changed the setting? Because as much as you are telling little stories using their world, they are telling one BIG story with their gaming world.

KillWatch wrote:if this is some grand scheme by palladium to change the setting, what is the follow through? I haven't seen it. Doesn't mean it isn't there but why change it if there is nothing coming, no major change? Ok the coalition won (if you say so), now what?

They (Palladium) simply haven't gotten around to telling us what the big repercussion of the CWC was. Give it time, maybe that is coming in the next few years; after all, it took them this long to get to the CWC. I don't know, I'm not privy.

KillWatch wrote:and why do you comment now?
How is it a dead horse for you if you have only just posted?
and if you have been following, why?
How is this any concern of yours if you have offered no opinion other than to say that you have nor real opinion, and that we can can accept or ignore what we wish, and we know the alternate dimensions bit which has already been said and understood, Is this a post count for you? is that you're insight which is suppose to make us all go, oh yeah hey thanks never thought of that,...
The question was posed for you opinions and discussion. Your post doesn't attempt to give an opinion. We understand what we CAN do. But what do YOU think? How do you feel about it, personally?

I HAD been following. I wanted to see if any headway could be made in either direction. I wanted to see if you would bend to see that you hadn't been RR'd or if they would give in and see that it was just that. And, even then, I thought this had come to an end last year only to see it resurrected again this year. I guess it just seemed that no matter what explanation the others gave, you held to your guns and they held to theirs - no resolution, no movement in discussion, no point in continuing.

KillWatch wrote:and by posting you have given new life to the subject which was dead and not moving going nowhere so yes it was a dead horse, which you have revived, good on you

But again thanks for whatever your post was suppose to do

Maybe keeping this going was my purpose; but more than anything, I think that people should be open to the ideas of others and both sides should be looking for either consensus or at least compromise.

As for my opinion on the topic: I think that the setting (the metaplot) belongs to the company and they reserve the right to make sweeping, world-altering changes as they desire; however, my games always take place in MY alternate dimension version of their world and if I want to use something I will otherwise it remains in the background for something I can use later.

As for the CWC, I would have had my characters on mission somewhere away from the war zone only to return sometime later to find that any contacts they had had were gone or missing and the entire North American continent was a new world from what it had been - that now it was worth exploring again after it having been stagnant for so many years.

I do not believe it was railroading. I think it was a revitalization of the location. I think that, in the same way others have said, the metaplot is setting information, your story takes place in the setting, individual gaming groups do not alter the company's setting without removing themselves from it. Therefore, no, your characters could not alter the outcome, but you could play small parts. Just as during the War of the Lance, characters only played a role in the war, they didn't win it or lose it. Winning and losing was done by other characters that were written and controlled by the company.

In this way, IF an assassin had taken out Hitler during WWII, he would have been replaced by another NPC who would have continued the plot in a similar manner. Even though we all know that in our real history that might not have been the case, in the story of WWII, in order to maintain the story, it must have happened that way. Otherwise, the overarching story ends and the game setting becomes lifeless and dull. What use are heroes in a world without struggle?

My grandfather was born in 1913 and when he talks about the history he has lived through he does not talk about Hitler and how he interacted with the man, he talks about how he was driving trucks to get supplies to the men on the front line and what happened there. You have not been railroaded. You have been witness to the story. You were there when the titanic sank; you saw the Hindenburg burn; you lived through the sacking of Rome. Later in life, when you're character is sitting by the fire surrounded by his grandchildren, they will ask, "Gramps, where were you when Tolkeen fell to the Coalition?" and you will say, "Let me tell you the story of a man named _______ and a few unruly misfits and how we managed to _________ the _______ from _______ to make it possible for the ________ to continue their _______." And that will be your part in the history of RIFTS Earth.

Well said Beatmeclever.

To add to this: How many RPG tips, supplements, adventure ideas...etc have you seen where it covers stuff like "What do do if your players have done something you didn't expect? How do you continue the story?" or "The players went and killed so and so, I need that character". I've had scenarios like this... and what happened? I asked on these forums, I looked for tips online (all this when I was still inexperienced as a GM) and the majority of the answers I got were along the lines of "You could have it so they actually killed a shapeshifter who was taking the person's place" or "That's fine, don't worry. Just bring in someone else, or drop the clues that <the now dead NPC> would have given them"

The fact is, all of the advice does the same thing. It gives the players the same end result! When you are planning for a game, you're railroading the players. Half of the hooks in the Hook, Line, and Sinkers are railroading. Why? Because some sort of event is being thrust upon the players without their control. Railroading to an extent is necessary or you may leave the game too wide open. Now, prior to the fall of Tolkeen, what really was the difference between Tolkeen, Lazlo, and New Lazlo other than population and location? I don't recall reading too much. Now that Tolkeen has fallen, you've got a whole new dynamic. There's a resistance type faction that's giving the CS a hard time. All of a sudden we've gone from three cookie cutter magic states to two and a conflict area that is an ideal setting for new plot lines. Think about it. Now Tolkeen is truly a unique location on Rifts Earth.

Now anything in the books can be seen as railroading. Nxla showing up? Yup... what if I didn't want Nxla to show up on Rifts Earth? Too bad! It's in the book and thus being forced down my throat. As a matter of fact I didn't want the Xiticix (sp?) to be a threat... but *gasp* they are! Palladium! Stop shoving this stuff in my face! Why did the Mechanoids show up on earth?! I didn't want that (Actually I did and it was totally awesome ). Basically everything that becomes printed in a book is something that the company has added to the game world. As they keep adding world books I suppose we're all being railroaded to accept their many other factions, and monsters, and races, and equipment. Seriously, if this is the case, why is Tolkeen such a big deal? They ADD new stuff to the game all the time... but they decide to REMOVE something from it and everyone throws a fit.

Now the way I see railroading is... when a GM, takes away a player's free will. Your players can definitely have a hand in the Tolkeen war. They can choose to go elsewhere. KS isn't telling you that your players need to fight and die trying to save Tolkeen. What he's saying is that... hey! Tolkeen loses! That's part of the setting and I get the impression that it was intended that way from the beginning. If the players still have free will to do what they want... then hey! it's not railroading!

"But Skye! My whole party is full of gods who could have stopped the Coalition and saved Tolkeen!" Cool! Then do it! The average player/group though is not going to have the ability to completely stop an entire army. If your group can, you're way up there in the power scale and I'm not sure why you'd even be concerned with Tolkeen in that case. For that matter, if you could... why is Rifts Earth in such a bad state anyways?

It's actually not hard to change the whole Tolkeen falling thing. If it bothers you so much you can just change it in your game. Go ahead, KS gives his blessing. Just cause Tolkeen to go from "Blow'd up" to "Tadah! There!"

"But what about all of the stuff in the later books about Tolkeen resistance being a pain to the Coalition?"
Easy fix, just change that to "Tolkeen is mad... so they're punching the Coalition for trying to take them over"

Tadah!

I think a lot of people have some sort of Railroading Phobia and anything seemingly infringing on their own imagination (Which if you're using someone elses setting in the first place you're kinda beat already eh?) just sends them into a frenzy.

it is. when the Gm or in this case the setting, does not allow for alternative endings or pathways, it is railroading because, like a rail line, it can only go one way, hence rail road, even more simply put

"Why did TSR have the war in Forgotten Realms that changed the setting? Because as much as you are telling little stories using their world, they are telling one BIG story with their gaming world."
-Yes it is railroading, and I thought it was a bad idea then to. And you yourself could be telling one big one without their "help" but to put into the books themselves is forcing it on everyone. I can definitely see the FR events more so because it was dealing primarily with the gods and not mortals. Mortals were simply swept up into the events, and since a lone mortal can not disrupt these events, I am more ok with it. But a lone character can have a dramatic effect on a war.

They (Palladium) simply haven't gotten around to telling us what the big repercussion of the CWC was. Give it time, maybe that is coming in the next few years; after all, it took them this long to get to the CWC. I don't know, I'm not privy.
-Or there isn't one, because now they have a whole new arch-the hell wars or whatever (forgive, don't have books right in front of me), and it is going to be a big jump the shark moment if they try to tie the two together

I HAD been following. I wanted to see if any headway could be made in either direction. I wanted to see if you would bend to see that you hadn't been RR'd or if they would give in and see that it was just that. And, even then, I thought this had come to an end last year only to see it resurrected again this year. I guess it just seemed that no matter what explanation the others gave, you held to your guns and they held to theirs - no resolution, no movement in discussion, no point in continuing.
-And yet you persist. I have not "stuck to my guns" as you put it. I just haven't heard anything to change my mind. Saying it isn't railroading is simply saying "cuz it's not" I am telling you why it is, and you are telling my why it is, but for these reasons, which you don't know, so I frankly don't see the disparity. And no movement?, well you solved that. I had forgotten all about it until now. And if it was your purpose why complain about it? And if you wanted to discuss it more, why summarize it by saying I want to be rail roaded, no one else sees it that way and that's that? That's an attempt at an ending not a beginning. There are no questions there. No intro for dialogue.

"As for my opinion on the topic: I think that the setting (the metaplot) belongs to the company and they reserve the right to make sweeping, world-altering changes as they desire; however, my games always take place in MY alternate dimension version of their world and if I want to use something I will otherwise it remains in the background for something I can use later."
-I completely agree, doesn't mean it's not railroading

I think it was a revitalization of the location.
-Again, does not preclude railroading, which it is for reasons stated above

In this way, IF an assassin had taken out Hitler during WWII, he would have been replaced by another NPC who would have continued the plot in a similar manner. Even though we all know that in our real history that might not have been the case, in the story of WWII, in order to maintain the story, it must have happened that way. Otherwise, the overarching story ends and the game setting becomes lifeless and dull. What use are heroes in a world without struggle?
-OMFG that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Someone COULD have taken out hitler BUT that doesn't mean the end of the game. There is no leadership without hitler, doesn't mean someone won't TRY. That is just short sighted! And that game DID end and others began. YOu are suggesting they keep the game going in a never ending war, which palladium isn't even doing. So now you have a problem with Palladium and the way they handled it to.

You know what we would call your father?? AN NPC!

Then I must be the freak here. If my players kill off an important NPC then they do so. Unless I have predetermined that this character right here and now is not the one they think it is, it is. That's cheating and it's lazy. Just because the players do something unexpected, doesn't mean you can let yourself off the hook. Videogames are railroads. What you guys are talking about is little better than the idea of a VG character unable to cross a police line tape despite being able to jump 40 feet or having a chainsaw. The game says nope, and you must obey. Pathetic. It's annoying in the structured universe of VGs and even more so in the "free willed" rpg universe. Let the characters do what they want. Give them consequences, let them damn themselves, let them be the big heroes, the big idiots, as much as they want. I don't play the story. I provide the world and circumstances as they are. I react to the players. I don't pull mulligans. I don't pull punches. I don't use "GM Knowledge" to screw the players, just as I don't want them to use player knowledge in game. If they get in, kill prosek and set themselves at emperor, fine let's deal with that. I think a world where anything can happen and the players are not limited to what the story HAS to be is a lot more fun. More work, more creative, but more fun.

KillWatch wrote:Then I must be the freak here. If my players kill off an important NPC then they do so. Unless I have predetermined that this character right here and now is not the one they think it is, it is. That's cheating and it's lazy. Just because the players do something unexpected, doesn't mean you can let yourself off the hook. Videogames are railroads. What you guys are talking about is little better than the idea of a VG character unable to cross a police line tape despite being able to jump 40 feet or having a chainsaw. The game says nope, and you must obey. Pathetic. It's annoying in the structured universe of VGs and even more so in the "free willed" rpg universe. Let the characters do what they want. Give them consequences, let them damn themselves, let them be the big heroes, the big idiots, as much as they want. I don't play the story. I provide the world and circumstances as they are. I react to the players. I don't pull mulligans. I don't pull punches. I don't use "GM Knowledge" to screw the players, just as I don't want them to use player knowledge in game. If they get in, kill prosek and set themselves at emperor, fine let's deal with that. I think a world where anything can happen and the players are not limited to what the story HAS to be is a lot more fun. More work, more creative, but more fun.

Then stop trying to play in the setting. Start with the setting and then allow your world to change. When PB puts out new books DON'T BUY THEM or you will be getting railroaded! Otherwise, it is a story being told by someone other than YOU. Sorry man, it's just the way it is.

I think it sounds like you are too loose with your games. How many times do you plot a big campaign that ends after just one adventure? How many times do you have to say, "Oops, I guess you can all go home for the night, I don't know what the next village over the hill looks like yet, so we can't start a new adventure." If you have NEVER said these things, congratulations. If you have, oh well, that's why the rest of us plan adventures, and make big bad guys, and try to make the STORY last through all three acts.

Otherwise, you should also think about the fact that every time your players arrive in a town and you put a plot device in front of them that will lead them to a treasure, an event that they must stop, the solution to a murder, or anything else of the sort, you are trying to railroad them into an adventure. You should be ashamed!

But, I hope your "free willed" rpg universe stays fun for you.

P.S.: Palladium NEVER said they were publishing a "free willed" universe and I have NO idea where you got the idea that they had.

Then stop trying to play in the setting. Start with the setting and then allow your world to change. When PB puts out new books DON'T BUY THEM or you will be getting railroaded! Otherwise, it is a story being told by someone other than YOU. Sorry man, it's just the way it is.
-wow again you just don't see it do yoiu. Coalition war is the only BOOk that told us how things were going to unfold WHILE we were playing it. Don't buy anymore books? Well I think palladium doesn't want that, and you seem to be getting testy? and I laugh. I haven't bought the books, I bought a few because I was interested in some of the content. And i Won't use them. I am under no illusion that says I MUST use what they hand out. YOu seem to though. I was just putting it out there that I thoiught it was railroading. And setting? Again Coalition war the only set I have found where it was railroading. Maybe you look at it differently but I look at HLNSs as plot lines that MAY happen if things don't get disrupted or the players don't catch on, or what have you. I learned a long time ago that players don't play by script, so know your baddies, what they want and how they will do it and then throw the players into the mix

I think it sounds like you are too loose with your games. How many times do you plot a big campaign that ends after just one adventure?
-Never. Too much RPing and I don't hand them the game. They have to earn everything. Freebies are looked at with suspicion

How many times do you have to say, "Oops, I guess you can all go home for the night, I don't know what the next village over the hill looks like yet, so we can't start a new adventure." If you have NEVER said these things, congratulations.
-Ah Thankyou, Besides there are always other things go off of. PC background, relatives, vengeful lovers of the baddies they just put down etc. There is always something else to work with, always. Even if they don't see it coming, I can simply ask, what do you guys want to do now? The ideas don't always have to come from you. And a good number of "random encounters" can keep a game going all night if need be, but that's just lazy

If you have, oh well, that's why the rest of us plan adventures, and make big bad guys, and try to make the STORY last through all three acts.
-All three acts? Hell I am lucky if they get through the first three items on my page. I know what is going on in the world. I know what their triggers are. I know what their histories are. I have typically 6 pages of game info 1) what the players are and level, 2 what happened previous games, 3 single line things that may happen, 4 Brief NPC information, 5 Aside notes like weapon damages and other things to keep in mind, and 6) scratch for game notes. Oddly enough if you leave it to the characters and not help them out, there is a lot of role playing, a lot of skill use, a lot of resource gathering and thinking. In a ten hour session I can get through 1or 3 items on that list. I don't stand on the idea that villains will always fight to the death. They usually have other ideas and goals in mind than to die at the hands of some idiots who happen upon their plans.

P.S.: Palladium NEVER said they were publishing a "free willed" universe and I have NO idea where you got the idea that they had.
-Because they have never done this before. If I never hit you over the head, and suddenly one day I do, is it ok because i never said I wouldn't?

and yes it works out very nicely

I'm sorry, I obviously took the wrong tact. By what you have said in all of the posts in this thread, it sounds like you really have been railroaded. After all, your IP simply asked:

KillWatch wrote:Was the coalition war canon railroading? The war had a definite end and outcome, but it kind of ruled out PC interaction, like no matter what anyone did this is what is going to happen.

AM I wrong? Did anyone have results that do not match this?

And what about the hell unleashed series? thoughts?

And then you asked your question of:

KillWatch wrote:...what, if anything, did you do about it?

To which, admittedly, you only ever got a few direct statements of what others had done and more then a few attacks that you should be perfectly happy to change the setting in your own game however you'd like (including my own).

I have thought about how much I was disappointed by the change in timeline of the Cyberpunk RPG (from 2020 to 203X) and I understand now that had that happened through an adventure that wouldn't have made me too happy either. And so, I concede the point. You have been railroaded. Now I am just sorry that I don't have any stories to tell of how my game changed the story. Sorry. Done.

To answer how it was changed in my game: The Mechanoids managed to get more of their forces on Rifts Earth and not only hit the bugs at the convenient moment to keep them off the CS and they also hit Tolkeen directly. My change was primarily to explain beyond all doubt how Tolkeen lost.

SkyeFyre wrote:Right, as being a location and time for a story to unfold all three are settings. A setting can be defined as not only a location and ones surroundings but a time period. Location? Tolkeen. Environment? A war torn city. Time? 105 to 109PA. After this we experience a change to the setting much like books 2 and 3 of the MIT and even the dark ages of CE. So instead of choosing not only a location for your story but you are also choosing a time, and time changes everything. In the very description of Rifts Earth as of the very beginning it has been stated that cities come and go. The world is chaotic and ever changing, so you were all warned that these elements were part of the "setting" from the very beginning. Cities disappearing for various reasons is part of the predetermined setting.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ya, and set things up like World Book 23 did... so the pcs can have an effect on the game-world.

No.
They changed the game world something which not the PCs nor even the GMs could have any effect on.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

SkyeFyre wrote:Right, as being a location and time for a story to unfold all three are settings. A setting can be defined as not only a location and ones surroundings but a time period. Location? Tolkeen. Environment? A war torn city. Time? 105 to 109PA. After this we experience a change to the setting much like books 2 and 3 of the MIT and even the dark ages of CE. So instead of choosing not only a location for your story but you are also choosing a time, and time changes everything. In the very description of Rifts Earth as of the very beginning it has been stated that cities come and go. The world is chaotic and ever changing, so you were all warned that these elements were part of the "setting" from the very beginning. Cities disappearing for various reasons is part of the predetermined setting.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ya, and set things up like World Book 23 did... so the pcs can have an effect on the game-world.

No.
They changed the game world something which not the PCs nor even the GMs could have any effect on.

Sorry to burst the ranting but SoT is not eh first railroading that has happenned in Rifts nor will it be the last.

The Mechanoids and The Four Horseman are both referenced MORE than once as to being defeated in various books. This tells me they are at least loosely paying attention to a vague timeline. This also means at somepoint the Xiticix will either explode inpower or be cut back/defeated just as the Mechanpids have been and the Four Horseman have been. Why should SOT have been treated any differently than these two fairly major appearances on Rifts Earth? The only difference is they were more open about it and in theother cases the players could have taken part in defeating the evil that was before them. If your players lost guess what, in canon they were still defeated by someone, maybe someone else and not your party.

Didn't realize that about the four horseman. You would have thought THAT would have made more noise than the coalition war. I think Kevin might be playing these things out and letting the rest of us deal with the fall out

I am just guessing bt erin tarn I beleive is wher ehtey mention it more than once so she was by canon standards part ofhte group that encountered the four horse or the gathering of heroes as its usually referred to and they mention the appearance and defeat of the mechanoids more than once as well so take that as you will. Me I have done games set at various times of hte imteline so sometimes they are as hte books say or I change it up.

In the end it really is just a matter of "Don't like it? Don't use it"

jaymz wrote:Sorry to burst the ranting but SoT is not eh first railroading that has happenned in Rifts nor will it be the last.

The Mechanoids and The Four Horseman are both referenced MORE than once as to being defeated in various books. This tells me they are at least loosely paying attention to a vague timeline. This also means at somepoint the Xiticix will either explode inpower or be cut back/defeated just as the Mechanpids have been and the Four Horseman have been. Why should SOT have been treated any differently than these two fairly major appearances on Rifts Earth? The only difference is they were more open about it and in theother cases the players could have taken part in defeating the evil that was before them. If your players lost guess what, in canon they were still defeated by someone, maybe someone else and not your party.

I wouldn't really call one sentence a rant but from what you said after that it seems apparent you have no sense of proportion.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

jaymz wrote:Sorry to burst the ranting but SoT is not eh first railroading that has happenned in Rifts nor will it be the last.

The Mechanoids and The Four Horseman are both referenced MORE than once as to being defeated in various books. This tells me they are at least loosely paying attention to a vague timeline. This also means at somepoint the Xiticix will either explode inpower or be cut back/defeated just as the Mechanpids have been and the Four Horseman have been. Why should SOT have been treated any differently than these two fairly major appearances on Rifts Earth? The only difference is they were more open about it and in theother cases the players could have taken part in defeating the evil that was before them. If your players lost guess what, in canon they were still defeated by someone, maybe someone else and not your party.

I wouldn't really call one sentence a rant but from what you said after that it seems apparent you have no sense of proportion.

Well it seems prior to my posts there was plenty of ranting and complaining the PB was railroading us with the Tolkeen war and it's outcome.

As for proportion. The point wasnt the size of the railroad but the fact that Rifts has had metaplot underlying all along. Case inpoint the Mechanoids and Four Horseman being defeated. In indivudual games they may nothave been but in the grand scheme of the metaplot of Rifts they are. That is no different than in some games people may have had the war come to a stalemate regarless of what the books say but in the grand scheme of underlying metaplot the CS wins the war. I DID say above the main difference was PB was just more open (ie blatant) about it. The end result is still the same regardless of the proportion. It is all railroading.

PB is not the first company to do it and won't be the last.

Fasa did it with Battletech/Mechwarrior and Shadowrun to a lesser extent.

Dream Pod the same with Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles to a lesser extent.

On the flip side PB does not do this with thier second biggest game line (at least product wise) in Palladium Fanatsy nor does it to this with its other games. (HU, DR etc)

KillWatch wrote:Then I must be the freak here. If my players kill off an important NPC then they do so. Unless I have predetermined that this character right here and now is not the one they think it is, it is. That's cheating and it's lazy. Just because the players do something unexpected, doesn't mean you can let yourself off the hook. Videogames are railroads. What you guys are talking about is little better than the idea of a VG character unable to cross a police line tape despite being able to jump 40 feet or having a chainsaw. The game says nope, and you must obey. Pathetic. It's annoying in the structured universe of VGs and even more so in the "free willed" rpg universe. Let the characters do what they want. Give them consequences, let them damn themselves, let them be the big heroes, the big idiots, as much as they want. I don't play the story. I provide the world and circumstances as they are. I react to the players. I don't pull mulligans. I don't pull punches. I don't use "GM Knowledge" to screw the players, just as I don't want them to use player knowledge in game. If they get in, kill prosek and set themselves at emperor, fine let's deal with that. I think a world where anything can happen and the players are not limited to what the story HAS to be is a lot more fun. More work, more creative, but more fun.

I run games...and perfer to play in games like you run them. I find them much more fun then the what seems to have become the standard type of game. So atleast if you are a freak...you are not alone.

The way I would have dealt with it is to let my players know what is happening...let them decide how involve they want to be...and decide what effect they do have dependent on their actions...if they just stay clear of it then it happens like it does in the books...if they get heavily involved then they could have a great effect on the outcome.

But I have always find these timeline advancing events annoying...I mean I think they should devote more time and energy to descibing the world as it is first then to do these kinda of things...I mean a Lazlo book would have been 100 x more useful then those books. But I have learned to roll with them...

Ok how many countries would even side with the firckan CS? Many of the other human based countries are simply trying to dfend their natjions from invading species. With the CS that would be their ideology, but the effect is is that they pretty much hunt and kill anythign that isn't baseline human or isn't working for them

And as for resources? well lets look at the BOM. Oh look there is a spell that allows you to create wood, permanently. How much of a stretch is it for a kingdom of magic to do enough research to create food, metals etc? Magic vastly superior to technology in scope and flexibility. hell I wouldn't be surprised if one guy with armor of ithan, invulnerability, and energy resistance with a decent weapon couldn't take out an entire platoon of CS grunts and robots

as for the horseman, yes the could very well happen that the players die and lose, It's all in what they do and how yo set it up. If they are still too green to take them on and they do so anyway, they die. Take it from there. What effects would the four horseman have on the world after that? How would the collective international community see this? Would the CS and FOM actually get along and take them on? What would atlantis do? I could see the world turning into a Dead reign setting with elements of wormwood. I coiuld see archie taking over the CS covertly and turning it into Splicers and of course his own little playground. yes it takes work. It takes imagination. It takes knowing the setting. And if your players are really taking on the four horseman alone? then they deserve whatever they get. It really should be a combined effort by several nations. I think it would be interesting if from africa they went to atlantis. Pestilence would have a field day taking over the xixtix

To be honest, but for what has been pointed out regarding erin tarns posts, I don't see a whole lot of world events in the classes, spells, equipment, setting. So it might be whatever I am looking for, has nothing to do with these events. I could use any of the books, even coalition war books, simply for the gear and classes. I can know what the coalition wants to do, but I don't have to allow it.

KillWatch wrote:...as for the horseman, yes the could very well happen that the players die and lose, It's all in what they do and how yo set it up. If they are still too green to take them on and they do so anyway, they die. Take it from there. What effects would the four horseman have on the world after that? How would the collective international community see this? Would the CS and FOM actually get along and take them on? What would atlantis do? ...

IIRC, WB4 mentioned that Splyncryth, a creature with billions of troops that worship him, is in charge of a multi-dimensional empire, and even has a few gods that frequent Splynn, would cut his lossess and leave Rifts Earth if the Four Horsemen managed to meet up.

Came up with an example of a fairly simple concept that would allow GMs to still make use of the Tolkeen information from the various books without violating the official 'canon'. Its a bit of a quick fix but could be useful for some GMs.

It is a moderately lengthy post so I'm just listing the link here.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=113709&p=2182834#p2182834

random_username wrote:Came up with an example of a fairly simple concept that would allow GMs to still make use of the Tolkeen information from the various books without violating the official 'canon'. Its a bit of a quick fix but could be useful for some GMs.

It is a moderately lengthy post so I'm just listing the link here.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=113709&p=2182834#p2182834

I have one too, I call it "Living in the Past."

The Beast wrote:

random_username wrote:Came up with an example of a fairly simple concept that would allow GMs to still make use of the Tolkeen information from the various books without violating the official 'canon'. Its a bit of a quick fix but could be useful for some GMs.

It is a moderately lengthy post so I'm just listing the link here.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=113709&p=2182834#p2182834

I have one too, I call it "Living in the Past."

LOL