How much weight would it take ?

[Lenwen]

How much weight would it take to instantly drop a Rocket Powered single man Powered Armor ?

+1000lbs ?
+2000LBS ?
+3000LBS ?
+4000LBS ?
+5000LBS ?

How much weight would it take for that Rocket Powered Armor to lose its flight capability, and crash to the ground ?

[azazel1024]

Yup, as said no idea on aerodynamic lift forces or anything else like that. I say in hover/VTOL mode the maximum that a suit of power armor can lift is probably in the range of 1.5-2.5x the total weight of armor + pilot depending on the armor (as in 50-200% more then armor + occupant weight). In flight it would likely be higher, at least for those suits that have some sort of wings, maybe 2-4x.

So something like the terrain hopper is probably on the low end, like 1.5x and something like a SAMAS or Predator which have at least semi-functional wings and beefier powerplants are probably more like 2.5x lift and more like 4x in flight lift.

(weights made up since I don't have the books handy) So if you have 200lbs or armor + 200lbs of occupant (on average lets say), the a terrain hopper would be around 200lbs of overload to drop it. The SAMAS and Predator being heavier and more powerful flight systems might manage with 500lbs of armor and 200lbs of occupant say 1,050lbs of overload to drop it from a hover and 2,100lbs of overload to drop it from active flight.

For those with aerodynamic lifting surfaces where they have an overburden beyond their VTOL systems capabilities they'd need a running start and power assisted jump to get off the ground and flying.
-Matt

[Nightmaster]

Get the weight the suit have (its always stated along the statistic data of any vehicle) add the maximum weight the power armor can carry/lift based on the suits PS and then add +50% to that total weight.

Sumarizing: (Weight + power armor PS carry/lift) + 50%

With that you can (IMHO) defines what would be amount of weight to make the flying power armor to go down like a rock.

Just my two cents

[Overlord Rikonius]

I'm sorry, but the maximum downward acceleration via a heavy object is just 9.8 meters per second squared. There is no such thing as instant translation. If you want to talk about collisions, then open up your physics book and look up the conservation of momentum formulae.

What we don't have are statistics regarding the upward lift forces on a suit of powered armor, so any answer of "how much is too much" would be pure conjecture.

Agreed, it's gonna fall, it may start falling instantly, but it won't instantly slam to the ground.
However, there are still hazards even if the effect wears off before the SAMAS crashes:
* The sudden strain of having to lift several hundreds or thousands of pounds more than the system is built for may cause the engines to stall out, or even break them.
* Even if the engines still work, the SAMAS is now moving downward very rapidly, at who knows what angle. That could be a mean control roll to right yourself before crashing.

[Lenwen]

I am thinking now about a Techno Wizard Rail Gun which shoots up to 10 Round pellets that once they hit something they are instantly shot up in size due to Giant spell which adds 1000 lbs instantly to all 10 pellets .. which then sets off another spell which would be Carpet of Adhesion.

Knocking Samas outta the sky would quite litterally be no problem now.

[Lenwen]

Forget knocking them out of the sky for a minute. Let's talk about the conservation of momentum.

m1 * v1 = m2 * v2

A regular, old style SAMAS weighs in at around 770 pounds (340 for the suit, 180 or so for the pilot, and 250 for the rail gun and ammo, conservatively speaking, with the rail gun weight based on the NG202). If, somehow, you could add another 770 pounds in-flight seemingly out of thin air, what would happen? Well, m2 (the new total mass) now equals twice the original mass, m1. Now what what happens to the velocity?

m1 * v1 = 2 * m1 * v2

Which gives us...

v2 = 1/2 v1.

So if that SAMAS was rocketing along at 200 miles an hour, it's now instantly cut down to 100mph.

Now what do you think that does to the pilot?

You seem to be alot smarter then I with math. What would it take (wieght wise) to make that Samas lose its forword momentum an drop like a rock ?

[Shark_Force]

Forget knocking them out of the sky for a minute. Let's talk about the conservation of momentum.

m1 * v1 = m2 * v2

A regular, old style SAMAS weighs in at around 770 pounds (340 for the suit, 180 or so for the pilot, and 250 for the rail gun and ammo, conservatively speaking, with the rail gun weight based on the NG202). If, somehow, you could add another 770 pounds in-flight seemingly out of thin air, what would happen? Well, m2 (the new total mass) now equals twice the original mass, m1. Now what what happens to the velocity?

m1 * v1 = 2 * m1 * v2

Which gives us...

v2 = 1/2 v1.

So if that SAMAS was rocketing along at 200 miles an hour, it's now instantly cut down to 100mph.

Now what do you think that does to the pilot?

You seem to be alot smarter then I with math. What would it take (wieght wise) to make that Samas lose its forword momentum an drop like a rock ?

you're missing his point. decelerating 100 mph works much the same as hitting a wall while travelling at a speed of 100 mph, though it would probably not be quite instant if you just add weight.

still, i'm not sure it would work like that. it's not a theory that you can really just test out without access to some sort of ability to spontaneously increase the weight of the travelling body.

[Lenwen]

Also, the implicit assumption is that the added mass starts out with relative 0 momentum, as opposed to the original momentum of the TW buckshot Lenwen and others have discussed.

When you shoot a TW bullet and then have that bullet enchant itself via the Giant spell, physics implies that one of two things will happen.

1. Adding mass via the Giant or Increase Weight spells does not add kinetic energy and therefore adds no momentum of its own. The momentum instead has to be spread out across the increasing mass, so the bullet that goes from 1 to 100 pounds sees its velocity cut down 99%. This was the method I used above.

-OR-

2. Adding mass via the Giant or Increase Weight spells adds enough kinetic energy to keep the velocity more or less constant. If you could do this, then you could have a TW sling shot firing small enchanted rocks that quickly grow to the size of multi-ton boulders while in flight yet still retain an aimable and reasonably fast trajectory. It'd be like a hand held siege weapon. Obviously, I don't want such spells to work that way.

I believe I stated that the bebee's (sp?) do not "Expand" or become "Gianted" until they hit either thier intended target or the ground.

Then start thier spell chain.

[Lenwen]

I believe I stated that the bebee's (sp?) do not "Expand" or become "Gianted" until they hit either thier intended target or the ground.

Then start thier spell chain.

Yes, but that doesn't help.

How does that not help ? Thier shot like a normal Rail Gun round .. when they hit thier target they start thier spell chain ..

How does this not help ?

[Lenwen]

The impact doesn't matter. Whether your game ascribes to scenario 1 or 2, as I presented earlier, does.

The impact does not matter neither does the delivery system of the rail gun like pellets .

All that matters is that upon impact they all instantly wiegh 1'000 lbs .. and considering that a rail gun weapon can throw out up to a couple dozen of these things ..

More then a couple should hit the samas if you score a hit .. and each wieghing 1'000 lbs instantly .. a direct hit would make 12 pellets be instantly 12'000 lbs.

I'm willing to admit it might not instantly stop the forword momentum but it would stop it after roughly a few hundred feet and would start falling instead of flying forword.

[Shark_Force]

i am not exagerrating the point. if you decelerate 100 mph instantly, it is EXACTLY identical to slamming into a wall at 100 mph. if the sudden weight increase really does drop the speed by 100 mph, the pilot is going to be slamming into the inside of his suit at with a force equal to that which would have happened had he slammed into a wall at 100 mph. now, he'll probably bounce around a lot less than someone who slams into such a wall in a car would, because there's less room in the suit. but it doesn't matter if you're travelling at 101 mph or 1100 mph when it happens, a 100 mph accelleration/deceleration over the same time has the same effect regardless of what your starting velocity was.

personally, i prefer to assume that the growth/weight increase doesn't happen instantly, but rather takes some time to occur, thus slowing down the object gradually rather than instantly.

[azazel1024]

Yeah frankly, with most things magic I don't see the effect occuring instantly. Maybe over a second or three, but not instantly.

If it did occur instantly, lets assume there is maybe 3 inches of padding/room inside of the suit for normal buffeting/getting beat-up. Decelerating 100mph in 3 inches for the human pilot would be a deceleration of around 1,000g. Considering that 100g is fatal to a human...you'd be cleaning chunky salsa out of the suit.

Hell at 1,000g of deceleration that is pretty much megadamage levels.

I think the only real way to get close to instantaneous translation downward for something like a SAMAS is to have a Devestator punch it in to the ground when the SAMAS tries to fly by.
-Matt

[Lenwen]

If it did occur instantly, lets assume there is maybe 3 inches of padding/room inside of the suit for normal buffeting/getting beat-up. Decelerating 100mph in 3 inches for the human pilot would be a deceleration of around 1,000g. Considering that 100g is fatal to a human...you'd be cleaning chunky salsa out of the suit.
-Matt

Where did you get the 1'000 G's number from and how do you know what 100 G's is fatal to humans ?

[azazel1024]

If it did occur instantly, lets assume there is maybe 3 inches of padding/room inside of the suit for normal buffeting/getting beat-up. Decelerating 100mph in 3 inches for the human pilot would be a deceleration of around 1,000g. Considering that 100g is fatal to a human...you'd be cleaning chunky salsa out of the suit.
-Matt

Where did you get the 1'000 G's number from and how do you know what 100 G's is fatal to humans ?

For 100g's, I knew it before, but a simple google search brings it up. Look up vehicle crash information, fatal g force or something similar. For 1,000g's...I do math. Figure an approximate time to cover 3 inches at 100mph (d=vt), then calculate the decelerative force using the time you come up with (d=1/2at^2+vt), it isn't perfect, but it is close to what it would be. 1,000g is a little on the high end, but it would be well over 500g.

Think about a vehicle crash, 100mph head on collision with a concrete wall is almost invariably fatal, consider that a vehicle in such a crash is likely to have 2-3ft of crushing occur...compared to 3 inches inside the suit. The force would be distributed more evenly on the inside of the suit then on a seatbelt and air bag, or even racing harness and air bag...but with siginficantly, significantly higher accelerative forces.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Here you go if you want a source http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-g-force.htm

There is considerable variation among individuals when it comes to g-force tolerance, however. Race car drivers have survived instantaneous accelerations of up to 214 g during accidents. In rocket sled experiments designed to test the effects of high acceleration on the human body, Colonel John Stapp in 1954 experienced 46.2 g for several seconds. Usually, accelerations beyond 100 g, even if momentary, are fatal.

So based on that, 1,000g is likely to be fatal...very, very likely. That is also working with 3 inches of padding in the suit. If you look at 3 inches...that is a lot of padding in the suit, it would likely be less, meaning higher G forces if the suit instantly deccelerated 100mph.
-Matt

[Lenwen]

If it did occur instantly, lets assume there is maybe 3 inches of padding/room inside of the suit for normal buffeting/getting beat-up. Decelerating 100mph in 3 inches for the human pilot would be a deceleration of around 1,000g. Considering that 100g is fatal to a human...you'd be cleaning chunky salsa out of the suit.
-Matt

Where did you get the 1'000 G's number from and how do you know what 100 G's is fatal to humans ?

For 100g's, I knew it before, but a simple google search brings it up. Look up vehicle crash information, fatal g force or something similar. For 1,000g's...I do math. Figure an approximate time to cover 3 inches at 100mph (d=vt), then calculate the decelerative force using the time you come up with (d=1/2at^2+vt), it isn't perfect, but it is close to what it would be. 1,000g is a little on the high end, but it would be well over 500g.

Think about a vehicle crash, 100mph head on collision with a concrete wall is almost invariably fatal, consider that a vehicle in such a crash is likely to have 2-3ft of crushing occur...compared to 3 inches inside the suit. The force would be distributed more evenly on the inside of the suit then on a seatbelt and air bag, or even racing harness and air bag...but with siginficantly, significantly higher accelerative forces.
-Matt

Thank you this is VERY very well put And leaves little doubt in my mind that yes it would be fatal to normal humans. Thank you again for this VERY big eye opener.

[Natasha]

Forget knocking them out of the sky for a minute. Let's talk about the conservation of momentum.

m1 * v1 = m2 * v2

A regular, old style SAMAS weighs in at around 770 pounds (340 for the suit, 180 or so for the pilot, and 250 for the rail gun and ammo, conservatively speaking, with the rail gun weight based on the NG202). If, somehow, you could add another 770 pounds in-flight seemingly out of thin air, what would happen? Well, m2 (the new total mass) now equals twice the original mass, m1. Now what what happens to the velocity?

m1 * v1 = 2 * m1 * v2

Which gives us...

v2 = 1/2 v1.

So if that SAMAS was rocketing along at 200 miles an hour, it's now instantly cut down to 100mph.

Now what do you think that does to the pilot?

You seem to be alot smarter then I with math. What would it take (wieght wise) to make that Samas lose its forword momentum an drop like a rock ?

Let's assume this is a head-on inelastic collision for ease of computation. In a mid air collision with unequal angles the computations get more complicated as you have to break down the mometum vectors.

In a head-on collision one object is traveling west to east, let's call this the positive direction. Let's say the SAMAS is traveling in this direction. The colliding object therefore is traveling east to west, so we'll call this the negative direction. We'll use this information later.

Since you want to make the SAMAS have a velocity of 0 after the collision we need to ensure that the momentum of the colliding object is equal to the momentum of the SAMAS.

m1 = mass of SAMAS = 770.
v1 = velocity of SAMAS = 200.
p1 = momentum of SAMAS = 770 * 200 = 154000.

m2 = we will pick an arbitrary mass for the colliding object.
v2 = unknown velocity of the colliding object.
p2 = momentum of the colliding object.

Let's set m2 = 500.

Conservation of Momentum: m1 * v1 = m2 * v2.
Solve for v2: v2 = (m1 * v1) / m2 = 308.
Thus, p2 = m2 * v2 = 154000.

This formula gives us the final velocity after an inelastic head-on collision:
v_final = (p1 + p2) / (m1 + m2).

Since you want v_final = 0, we must find a way that makes p1 + p2 = 0.
Now remember that the velocity vector for the SAMAS is positive and the colliding object has a negative direction. So what we end up with is:
v_final = (p1 + -p2) / (m1 + m2).

Substitute in our values and we find that an object with mass 500 with a velocity of -308 will stop a SAMAS with mass 770 with a velocity of 200:

v_final = (154000 + -154000) / ( 770 + 500) = 0 / 1270 = 0.

Remember that momentum is simply mass times velocity.
As you reduce mass of the colliding object, you need to increase its velocity. Or as you increase the mass of the colliding object, you need to decrease its velocity.

[Natasha]

Well I was just answering the question. The application of which was not my concern.

The SAMAS could have a number of safety systems to absorb crash force so the pilot doesn't have to. Since we're in a world of soft sci-fi and high technology, it's not hard to imagine safety belts, a pilot's compartment surrounded with high viscosity liquids, hydraulics, and other components - basically a ton of handwavium - reducing the force of such a violent impact. We can also imagine he's splattered against his compartment.

[Shark_Force]

it wouldn't much matter how amazing the materials are though... as was pointed out, if your velocity changes by 100 mph in 3 inches (which i agree is very generous), well... it's 'better' than the same change over 1 inch or 0 inches. but not enough better to make you not dead.

[Natasha]

Sure it would matter. By using super tech you can extend the time of the collision and thereby reduce the impulse of force on the pilot and save his life. In other words, the pilot's velocity is not changing 100 mph in 3 seconds, it's changing it over a much longer time.

[Shark_Force]

but over the course of 3 seconds is much too long to spend decelerating if you only have the distance of the amount of padding inside the suit. if you spend 3 seconds to lose 100 mph of velocity, you're traveling a lot further than the thickness of the padding inside a suit of SAMAS armor. there just isn't enough room. i mean, if we were talking about people in a vehicle with enough room that you could stand up and walk to another place in the vehicle, sure. but there can't be much more than an inch or two of spare room inside a SAMAS... if the vehicle instantly loses 100 mph, the pilot is just going to be slammed against the inside of his suit at 100 mph. it doesn't much matter how good the padding is, it won't compensate for a 100 mph impact.

[Natasha]

but over the course of 3 seconds is much too long to spend decelerating if you only have the distance of the amount of padding inside the suit. if you spend 3 seconds to lose 100 mph of velocity, you're traveling a lot further than the thickness of the padding inside a suit of SAMAS armor. there just isn't enough room. i mean, if we were talking about people in a vehicle with enough room that you could stand up and walk to another place in the vehicle, sure. but there can't be much more than an inch or two of spare room inside a SAMAS... if the vehicle instantly loses 100 mph, the pilot is just going to be slammed against the inside of his suit at 100 mph. it doesn't much matter how good the padding is, it won't compensate for a 100 mph impact.

Of course. But we're still talking about different things.

[Natasha]

Sure it would matter. By using super tech you can extend the time of the collision and thereby reduce the impulse of force on the pilot and save his life. In other words, the pilot's velocity is not changing 100 mph in 3 seconds, it's changing it over a much longer time.

That didnt make any sense.. It doesnt matter how high tech it is. You cannot defeat physics. If you drop 100mph instantly (or in 3inch) your body is going to absorb the majority of that energy.

Thats why you can have 99999999999999MDC body armor. But if you jump out of a plane...without a parachute.....your still going to die....even though your armor will live through it...

Erm what I said is precisely physics.

If you can extend the time of collision you will reduce the impulse of force. That's why cars are designed to crumble upon impact or you bend your knees when landing from a jump. These strategies are extending the time of the collision and reducing the force. With super high tech in a soft sci-fi world, it's easy to imagine a high speed collision is survivable.

[Natasha]

I presented two scenarios. One is with the pilot saving super tech. The other is a pilot pancake.

I understand and agree with everything related to the pilot pancake stuff. I'm not arguing against that. All I'm saying is that in a super tech soft sci-fi world, it's not hard to imagine that the pilot's compartment could be well protected against such impacts. Since the pilot pancake is short and to the point and already well explained in this thread, I went on to explore the first scenario.

In the first, there's not a lot or any canon suggesting this is the case. But we can still imagine a situation where it's possible to save a pilot's life. There's no reason to believe that a pilot's compartment must be precisely the same as a driver's seat in a car - especially since M.D.C. armour doesn't crumble on impact. The compartment could be encased in super-viscous liquid or have hydraulics or other super swanky tech yet unknown to us keeping the pilot safe from lethal doses of force. The 3" of padding could just be between the pilot and his compartment, not the compartment and the armour. Is it a stretch? Sure it is, but it's soft sci-fi. So I think it's OK to do. From a game mechanics perspective, I like it a little more than the pilot pancake, too, since it cuts down on the things that can instantly kill a PC and it can preclude potential argument for what was or was not sufficient for creating lethal forces upon a pilot.

[Qev]

For 100g's, I knew it before, but a simple google search brings it up. Look up vehicle crash information, fatal g force or something similar. For 1,000g's...I do math. Figure an approximate time to cover 3 inches at 100mph (d=vt), then calculate the decelerative force using the time you come up with (d=1/2at^2+vt), it isn't perfect, but it is close to what it would be. 1,000g is a little on the high end, but it would be well over 500g.

Actually, you were just about bang-on (pun intended). I figure it to be 1350g, or near about, unless my math skills have wholly deserted me.