Forums of the Megaverse®

Ah...San Francisco...America begins west of the San Andreas....

I see your rune tomahawks and raise you a Mark V missile barrage...

Area 51...nuff said.

I see your rune weapons and raise you an entire armored battalion, most of the returned indian tribes still live the way they did originally and unfortunately would probably suffer their original fate. The remaining enclaves would put up a fight but don't have even Tolkeen level resources, I'd sayt hat over the long run the CS body count might match that of Tolkeen, but probably not, and won't exceed it. Tho' gunslingers will be a right royal pain in the tuchas.

keir451 wrote:I see your rune weapons and raise you an entire armored battalion, most of the returned indian tribes still live the way they did originally and unfortunately would probably suffer their original fate. The remaining enclaves would put up a fight but don't have even Tolkeen level resources, I'd sayt hat over the long run the CS body count might match that of Tolkeen, but probably not, and won't exceed it. Tho' gunslingers will be a right royal pain in the tuchas.

They lost before because of Buffalo Soldiers and Native American turncoats. These guys would not be so easy this time. MD weapons, Totem, Spirit, and Fetish Warriors, guerilla tactics...etc!

I honestly don't think Native Americans would hold out against the CS for very long. If they could convince the Barony of Hope to fight, and Silvereno to fight (Dubious), then the CS would be in for a long, drawn out war that neither side would be able to make significant gains in. Plus, the other problem comes from the fact that this area has it's own hazards, like an army of Brodkil and the Black Winged Monster Men. The area has so much random problem induction that fighting a long term engagement under these circumstances is really not tactically advisable.

Crucible wrote:[
They lost before because of Buffalo Soldiers and Native American turncoats. These guys would not be so easy this time. MD weapons, Totem, Spirit, and Fetish Warriors, guerilla tactics...etc!

Also diseases constantly being brought in by immigrants...
Now, I gotta mention this, the CS has Lone Star, and one of the Rifters dealt with the CS's biological weapons program...Now, I don't see the wiser, more experienced Native Americans accepting smallpox-infected blankets, and the CS would be rather reluctant to use weaponized disease pathogens on human populations just for the hell of it, but some of the higher ups might convince themselves and the troops that the magic-using 'wildmen' AREN'T human, and thus justify deploying a few hundred gallons of anthrax spores, or especially some of the disease organisms that specifically target magic users...
Yeah, but if that happens, things will get real ugly, real fast...The Native American spiritualists will uncork some SERIOUS natural fury on the CS, and the Modernists might even use some of the nukes they may have found in scavenged military outposts if the CS starts throwing around biohazards...

taalismn wrote:

Crucible wrote:[
They lost before because of Buffalo Soldiers and Native American turncoats. These guys would not be so easy this time. MD weapons, Totem, Spirit, and Fetish Warriors, guerilla tactics...etc!

Also diseases constantly being brought in by immigrants...
Now, I gotta mention this, the CS has Lone Star, and one of the Rifters dealt with the CS's biological weapons program...Now, I don't see the wiser, more experienced Native Americans accepting smallpox-infected blankets, and the CS would be rather reluctant to use weaponized disease pathogens on human populations just for the hell of it, but some of the higher ups might convince themselves and the troops that the magic-using 'wildmen' AREN'T human, and thus justify deploying a few hundred gallons of anthrax spores, or especially some of the disease organisms that specifically target magic users...
Yeah, but if that happens, things will get real ugly, real fast...The Native American spiritualists will uncork some SERIOUS natural fury on the CS, and the Modernists might even use some of the nukes they may have found in scavenged military outposts if the CS starts throwing around biohazards...

Thats what I was thinking.

Zerebus wrote:
Eastward expansion is much more difficult. The Iroquois League is large and unified enough to quickly field an army with thousands of Spirit Warriors at its lead. There's also the matter of Lazlo, New Lazlo, the Federation of Magic, the Shemarians, and all the blasted critters and diseases constantly trickling out of the Dinosaur Swamp.

Plus Nxla, haunted cities like Madhaven, the Splugorth, and all that blasted forest makes it harder to see trouble coming...
Plus, if the Minion Wars descend on the central CS city-states, they'll find it (marginally) easier to evacuate/flee westward, than eastward...

gnome888 wrote:

Crucible wrote:Area 51...nuff said.

New West says that area 51 was taken over by the mafia/blackmarket, Bandito arms.They make western style laser weapons. This makes sense because its in Navada and so is the mafia. But where are the tommy gun style bandito weapons thats what i wanna know.

THAT would be a scary weapon to see.

keir451 wrote:

gnome888 wrote:

Crucible wrote:Area 51...nuff said.

New West says that area 51 was taken over by the mafia/blackmarket, Bandito arms.They make western style laser weapons. This makes sense because its in Navada and so is the mafia. But where are the tommy gun style bandito weapons thats what i wanna know.

THAT would be a scary weapon to see.

Here here!

One of the CS's advantage is that they have practical experience fighting a war. The tribes/nations haven't really fought on the scale that the collaltion is used to, expecially after Tolkeen

Well, to be completely honest, open, flat plains favor the CS. It allows their Samas units and artillery free range of movement, it's ideal for formation fighting, strafing, etc. They have range AND superior firepower. If the NA tribes withdrew to the mountains, then the terrain doesn't really favor the CS anymore. Cramped quarters, stupidly big trees, lots of cover, and booby traps. THAT favors the Native Americans.

Incriptus wrote:One of the CS's advantage is that they have practical experience fighting a war. The tribes/nations haven't really fought on the scale that the collaltion is used to, expecially after Tolkeen

You're serious? You know that our special forces was based on their tactics right? BTW, when you invage you are at a disadvantage.

Incriptus wrote:One of the CS's advantage is that they have practical experience fighting a war. The tribes/nations haven't really fought on the scale that the collaltion is used to, expecially after Tolkeen

Sorry the Coalitions War "exp" is fighting supernatural and magic.

The Tribes will represent a completely and TOTALY new aspect of war .. Technology based reactive war opponants .. Sure they will have the smaller spirtual tribes there as well to supplement the main force, but the mainforce will be the Technologically using Tribes.

This will represent something totally new to the Coalition. Fighting Humans (they do not care about) who are using Tech that is on par with thiers .. in a full on war.

Its a war I do not think the CS wants or needs at this moment.

Lenwen wrote:

Incriptus wrote:One of the CS's advantage is that they have practical experience fighting a war. The tribes/nations haven't really fought on the scale that the collaltion is used to, expecially after Tolkeen

Sorry the Coalitions War "exp" is fighting supernatural and magic.

The Tribes will represent a completely and TOTALY new aspect of war .. Technology based reactive war opponants .. Sure they will have the smaller spirtual tribes there as well to supplement the main force, but the mainforce will be the Technologically using Tribes.

This will represent something totally new to the Coalition. Fighting Humans (they do not care about) who are using Tech that is on par with thiers .. in a full on war.

Its a war I do not think the CS wants or needs at this moment.

Their brutality trumps the CS's blind zealotry any day.

Crucible wrote:

Incriptus wrote:One of the CS's advantage is that they have practical experience fighting a war. The tribes/nations haven't really fought on the scale that the collaltion is used to, expecially after Tolkeen

You're serious? You know that our special forces was based on their tactics right? BTW, when you invage you are at a disadvantage.

And what does that have to do with fielding a million soldier army?

Gryphon wrote:And the third part, the Colorado Baronies…
I would also expect, that much like the actual growth of Mysticism (the Palladium variant that is), as the CS threat, or any major threat really, looms in the distance, more and more will begin to show a stronger proclivity towards combat magics and psionics. (AND NOW INTRODUCING….THE BATTLE MYSTIC OCC!!! Or some similar concept that I leave to you GMs to produce. Out of curiosity, is there a combat mystic type OCC?)

i take it you didn't notice the mystic knight OCCs then?

- Techno-Wizardry, don’t get me wrong, I still think magic can’t match tech on the Total War battlefield, simply because of supply limits, but for what its worth, this stuff will always be the bane of CS troops. Think about it, Carpet of Adhesion, Magic Net, or Darkness grenades? Fun for everyone NOT wearing black and white armor! This is to say nothing about the direct damaging stuff. On the other hand, the CS clearly has quite a bit of experience with this stuff, so it isn’t the be all end all answer many would wish.

you neglect the possibility of TW-factories here. consider a TW-factory that creates wooden amulets and then enchants them with the talisman spell. or the TW scroll printing press. or the TW ironwood plywood factory. depending on how unpleasant they're willing to get, you could even see TW mummifiers, or similar.

Baronial Disadvantages:
- The big one, numbers, as in they can’t hope to match the CS in any way shape or form. With a total population of around 150,000 circa 105 PA, if we assume a modest growth rate AND a lot of spill over from Tolkeen, we can increase this to more than 200,000, and that is 1/5th to 1/8th the total CS men in arms. Clearly the Baronies need help.

magic is actually pretty decent at overcoming this limitation. take the scrap wood from the TW ironwood factory, dump it all in a pile, and start summoning tectonic entities (conveniently, you have your TW printing presses and talisman factories to allow everyone to contribute 'troops'), for example. there's lots of other summoning abilities that can help too.

so i would say it isn't *quite* as bleack, necessarily, as your initial observation. that being said, if i was them, i'd stick to a sustained guerilla warfare, while planning a mass relocation. the only thing the CS should find when they get to anyplace significant should be summoned monsters for them to fight.

i am unaware of any mention of a TW cigarette lighter, but nevertheless i do not discount the possibility of the existence of a TW cigarette lighter.

just because nobody has *yet* created a TW factory (not one that produces TW stuff, but rather a factory powered by techno-wizardy that produces items). even if it requires a person to operate it, if you make a ley-line fueled machine capable of being used by a normal person, it should be possible to create a techno-wizardry device that will cast such spells as talisman, amulet, create magic scroll, ironwood, etc... the books don't list every techno-wizardry device possible, and i don't see why they should try. a set of rules for designing and making your own techno-wizard devices was provided specifically so that they *don't* have to try, in fact.

I personally can't wait until the CS tries to move into Apache country. Lets just say that historically whoever moves into that territory without friendly intent just gets mauled. Everyone remembers how the Spanish just rolled over just about everyone when they came to North America. well when they hit Apache country they ended up mugged. Literally the better armed and equipped Spanish were paying the Apache protection. Up until the US army defeated them by useing turncoat native tribesmen The Apache were the neighborhood Thug. That's not to say that an Apache would not give a friend the blanket off his back, it's just that they were a raiding culture. Now back then they were useing arrows, clubs, and crude single shot rifles.

According to cannon not only do the Rofts Apache have all that wonderful Spirit stuff but they have Modern Equipment that is slightly superior to the old style CS stuff. So it's not going to be anything close to a fight that whoever is in LoneStar is going to like.

TW machines that run off ley line energy casting spells (or modified versions of spells, or combinations of spells, etc) are already right in the rules. i don't have to add anything new, it's just taking the rules for creating TW devices and applying them. it's not substantially different from, say, using the rules for creating a character, or using the rules to create a mercenary company.

i doubt it'd be even that expensive to whip up a prototype for a scroll printing press or a talisman CNC machine.

Another important factor, is you have not only a lot of refugees from Tolkeen, but experienced fighters as well.

Whether technical, mystical, or something else, there's a lot of angry combat vets moving west...

TW mummifiers

OH SHI....

I've thought a lot about the concepts of TW type factories, but this just blew my mind. There's no theoretical or practical reason that one couldn't create a machine that churns out ironwood amulets, etc, or even just ironwood normal building materials. I've considered the applications of a number of spells in a mass-produced scenario, but never something like this...

I would have to disagree though, with the note about it not being expensive to set up such a mass-production styled TW factory. Even regular factories are extremely expensive to design and construct. Now add the enormous cost of thousands of carats of gems for all the equipment, and the extreme difficulty of addressing all the issues of automated magic item creation... It's going to be really complicated. Especially for a really high level spell like create scroll. The general concept would be easy, but keep in mind that there's a lot of magical theory that you'd have to grid through to develop a working design.

Think about the cybermagic in nightbane and it's gigantic factories that it needs for powerful spells, and the absurd cost it can reach to automate some spells. Sure TW doesn't work the same way, but the idea is similar.

Crazy Lou wrote:I would have to disagree though, with the note about it not being expensive to set up such a mass-production styled TW factory. Even regular factories are extremely expensive to design and construct.

on the other hand, an old printing press would be quite small and inexpensive, comparatively. i bet you could devise a relatively small (perhaps 40 feet square, if that) 'factory' that could produce sheets of plywood. a talisman could technically be something like a ring, or a wand; either could be easily produced using nothing more than a lathe. just imagine what you could do with telekinesis and a set of hand tools... it wouldn't take a huge area or investment to fabricate things. now, if you want to make dozens or hundreds or thousands of these machines, sure you got a problem... but the thing is, even if you use ritual timeframes, you're going to produce 1 new <whatever> about every half hour, probably. 48 per individual machine per day isn't huge, but you start piling them up more and more, selling products to gain more resources, use that money to obtain more gemstones, use the gemstones to build more machines, use regular workers to speed up the process, and so forth... it might take a while, but with a small initial investment (relatively speaking) you could plausibly create a printing press that churns out close to 50 scrolls per day. how much do you think you could sell 50 scrolls of, say, armor of ithan for? i bet it would cost less than 1 million to make the printing press to do it, and not much of it would be gems.

Shark_Force wrote:

Crazy Lou wrote:I would have to disagree though, with the note about it not being expensive to set up such a mass-production styled TW factory. Even regular factories are extremely expensive to design and construct.

on the other hand, an old printing press would be quite small and inexpensive, comparatively. i bet you could devise a relatively small (perhaps 40 feet square, if that) 'factory' that could produce sheets of plywood. a talisman could technically be something like a ring, or a wand; either could be easily produced using nothing more than a lathe. just imagine what you could do with telekinesis and a set of hand tools... it wouldn't take a huge area or investment to fabricate things. now, if you want to make dozens or hundreds or thousands of these machines, sure you got a problem... but the thing is, even if you use ritual timeframes, you're going to produce 1 new <whatever> about every half hour, probably. 48 per individual machine per day isn't huge, but you start piling them up more and more, selling products to gain more resources, use that money to obtain more gemstones, use the gemstones to build more machines, use regular workers to speed up the process, and so forth... it might take a while, but with a small initial investment (relatively speaking) you could plausibly create a printing press that churns out close to 50 scrolls per day. how much do you think you could sell 50 scrolls of, say, armor of ithan for? i bet it would cost less than 1 million to make the printing press to do it, and not much of it would be gems.

Oh i was thinking more on a scale that would change the outcome of a war. A few dozen million credits a month wasn't going to save Tolkeen for instance. More like a TW factory that could produce hundreds of thousands of annihilation mini-missiles or such. Because then the main complexity would come from the factory for the missiles and the ENORMOUS PPE costs that it would entail (you couldn't just make this a straight up LL machine, lol.). Plus you'd need probably 10s of millions of credits in gems at that point.

Crazy Lou wrote:Oh i was thinking more on a scale that would change the outcome of a war. A few dozen million credits a month wasn't going to save Tolkeen for instance. More like a TW factory that could produce hundreds of thousands of annihilation mini-missiles or such. Because then the main complexity would come from the factory for the missiles and the ENORMOUS PPE costs that it would entail (you couldn't just make this a straight up LL machine, lol.). Plus you'd need probably 10s of millions of credits in gems at that point.

looking at it now, i'm pretty sure create scroll is actually not a ritual as i thought. so it could probably actually go a lot faster.

that said, even one of these machines at the original slow rate could produce ~50 annihilate scrolls per day. so you don't make just one. you start with one. then you start making more. and more. and more. you make them for dozens of spells. you make other machines that produce talismans. you just keep on going. you sell some of the created product, and use it to buy materials to make more machines. being able to just hand out talismans of armor of ithan or wall of defense, turning the average citizen into a spell platform, will make a huge difference.

A few more notes, Native American (First People) had an edge in the 1800's when taking on their opponents because of:

-A lack of Intel on the enemy and their fighting tactics. The Spanish were Not prepared for Apache tactics and did Not have knowledge of the lay of the land.
Conversely: The CS has ALL of this. They know Apache (and ALL First One) fighting tactics as, the CS military is derived from the US (and Later NEMA) military which trained in NA fighting techniques.
-A lack of proper communication! The Spanish could not coordinate their efforts as well as the Apache due to the Apaches' smoking skills
Additionally IN THOSE DAYS Everyone got around at the SAME SPEEDS, via; Horse or Walking.
Conversely: The CS has Mass communication tech (Not as far reaching as it is today mind you, but better than NA). Additionally the CS has THE MOST DISTINCT ADVANTAGE, they can move, position and coordinate ALL their forces in over Great distances in a matter of hours. NO military on the N.American Continent can do this (Now that Tolkeen is gone). This alone is a major buzz kill fer the New West and Apache' specifically!!!

-A lack of numbers. The Spanish did Not come in overwhelming numbers and the Apaches' DID. They could fight in wars of attrition against them...
Conversely: It is Now the CS in this position. They have Great numbers of soldiers to throw around putting them into the same category as the Apaches' in this field of play.

ADDITIONALLY: The where the CS may lack in Orbital Mapping tech, they Do happen to have secret "Sub-Orbital" satellites which are Very useful. The have spent years studying the newly remade American landscapes and have spent Year (Decades) producing scenarios to fight just such types of wars.
Experience wise, (as has been pointed out) the idea that Tolkeen was a Magic Force only is a Joke. They're NOT the FoM!!! They never had technophobia and used the stuff all the time... There is a reason that they almost Won the war you know...
A 'Tech' laden Mage can be a Scary thing. They Can wear non-metallic armor, Can use a laser pistol, Can and did learn to use Mech/PA and the like!
Tolkeen had: Cyborgs, Crazies, Dragons, Psychics, Trained super soldiers, Seasoned Vets (Mercs), Mecha, Robots, Cyber Knights, Lay of the lands (Home turf advant)...
Oh yeah... And 2 dozen+/- types of Mages (Earth-Wind-Water-Earth Shadow-Warlocks, Astral, Dream, Cyber, Geo, Conjure, Combatmages, Line, TW, Temporal, Shifter, Blue Flame, Flesh, Classic Wizards, Summoners, Diabolist, Mystics, Mystic Knights, etc).

All that on top of Armies of Dragons (Adult-Elder), Scores of Demon Legions, Summon-able Entities, Elementals, Brodkil, Simvan, and so on. Add in Advanced Tech (TW, Magic, Normal) and Magical Constructs and you've got one nasty force.

But lets not forget that one of the most important requirements for a war... Cohesion+Numbers!!!
They got infiltrated by the Magic Wielding CS underground SURE, but they Still lost!


The CS has:
-Psychics, many, many psychics!!!
-Anti-Magic "Psi-Stalkers" (often as skilled as the First People at guerrilla warfare), Nega-Mages & Nega-Psychics.
-Mass produce-able tech that is Every bit as powerful as Magic stuff.
-Constantly improving and competing Tech levels (great R&D).
-Scare Tactics. Hey, they're big and scary... You may think that the New West and the 'First People' have the Will to fight but, No... No they don't! When faced with the CS War Machine, many will pull out and run away to the hills (and likely get shot down, in the back for their stupidity)...
-Erin Tarn & Lazlo!!! You Heard me! The CS has that Woman and her "Please don't Fight the CS, they're the last hope for humanity" literalistic Hippycritical Nature working FOR THEM! Remember how Dangerous her opinions were towards Tolkeen? She and her mouth influenced MANY other nations to stay away from siding with Tolkeen.
And what was that load of unmitigated 'BS' of a reason Lazlo said that they wouldn't get involved/side with Tolkeen? (And NO, I'm not talking about that "You side with Evil" BS reason that came later when Tolkeen got desparate... I'm taking about their FIRST reason given to Tolkeen Long BEFORE the war... Remember yet?)
"We the people of Lazlo do Not get involved in a Political Wars"...
Wow... I mean WOW!!! Talk about the biggest cosmic Bone-out of a fabricated reason to not help defend the world from a Tyrannical Force of Evil!!! Political War is another way of saying "we're scared of them and we don't want them mad at us... What if we get hurt?"

News Flash Lazlo(you F-n Liberal Hippy's) The CS WILL BE COMMIN AFTER YOU ONE DAY, and just like how You boned out on helping Tolkeen, no-one else is gonna come to your aid either...
They won't cuz they Can't... The CS is taking everyone out one at a time! and the New West will one day be next!

-As to Shell Shocked Vets from the Last war: The CS is NOT ABOVE using psychics to "Heal all of those guys Minds"... Psychics can do that. And it won't take to much more stress on the peoples of the CS to push Proseck into using Psychics to start "Mentally Adjusting" it's citizens with psychic powers. Why waste such a useful resource???


These are just some More points to note in this discussion.

references? it's pretty straightforward.

RUE pages 129-135, the rules for making TW devices.

the spell chain involved in casting create magic scroll is... create magic scroll. i would presume for a printing press to scribe a specific spell onto said scroll, just the same as a mage would cast it (for the record, materials for palladium scrolls are relatively irrelevant) it would need to also be able to cast said spell... so we have two spell chains, the first being scribe scroll, the second being the spell you want.

so, let's begin:

create magic scroll uses black garnet, costing 2500 cr/carat. it costs 100 PPE to cast, and is a level 11 spell. we'll go with making scrolls of some old favorites: i'll figure out magic net and carpet of adhesion, which i think it's safe to say will come in handy in case of combat.

so, we start with costing out create magic scroll: we want it to be moderately effective, so we'll go with device level 5. this will give us a base creation cost in PPE of 220; but that's going to take too long, we're impatient, and more than willing to throw a few extra thousand credits into the pot. we'll blow 62.5k credits on gems to make this thing, for a total of 25 carats. this gives us a new creation PPE cost of 22 (for carpet of adhesion, the more expensive spell of the two), which sounds much better. we want it to work from ley line power with no added PPE required, so that bumps it up to 33. this means it will take 16.5 hours to craft one of these devices. it will cost an additional 1650 credits in random parts, plus we'll need an amethyst (400 credits). so for a parts cost of under 70k, you can make a machine that will (with the assistance of a regular civilian to activate it twice per melee round) create 1 scroll of whichever spell you prefer (magic net or carpet of adhesion) approximately every 7.5 seconds (for reasons of metagame mechanics, a soldier will likely get double that rate or better) so long as they are on a ley line. these scrolls can be used by any literate person, or even non-living things (such as a zombie)

the proof is functionally the same, albeit with different numbers, for talisman, amulet, create mummy, etc. because there are specific rules for the creation of TW devices, we can apply those rules to create new devices, in much the same way we can create specific characters or organisations using rules found in palladium books.

I just really hate Erin Tarn is all. Ever since she got back from Woomwood she's had an uncomfortably softer lean on Some issues with in regards to the CS policy machine. I Also disliked her cheerleading giggel fest when Sir thorp was taking on those CS soldiers and killing them... It seemed perverted and Hypocritical, if not out of character, thing fer her to do. The consept of "Holding off the CS" is a bad one simply cuz they gain More intel on you the longer you play with them... Kinda like how Seals realized that, if they swim right behind Great Whites they'll not get pegged cuz they can avoid Even GWs quick truns...
Great Whites "Played that game with Seals" and fer it seals think they're smart, but that was their Doom! You see, Great Whites eventually figured out the Major Flaw in that way of thinking, and seals figure it out as well when...

They realize that they followed the Giant Death Eaters "Out Too Far"! Great Whites swim as far out as they can into the deep blue untill: A) the Seal gets tired, B) Needs to come up for Air, C)The seal trys to swim back out of panik, or D) The seal realizes the trap came from ANOTHER Great White that was working in tandum with the first and is now right behind him!!!

The same goes with playing ball wt the Coalition... You play too long with them and soon you realize (or maybe you don't get that chance) you played Their game.

And again, the CS's little squad of Loyal (yet hidden even from the CS eyes) of Magical Leprechauns is Always infiltrating enemies of the CS and, No-one knows about it well enough to be safegaurded against Them.

So to sum it up in closing:
♣Super Magic Powa Leprechaun Squad GO!♣
and
Erin Tarn Sux and I Truly hate that Woman!!!

I really need to set some time aside (:lol:) and read straight through all the Tarn stuff I have, then figure out what I'm missing. I don't recall some of those points, so I must not be up to date...