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Nekira Sudacne wrote:The ones still active don't just shut down. Otherwise Intutive Combat becomes completely useless.

Dead Boy wrote:Here's a question that's been brewing in my head since it came up a couple weeks ago in another topic.

Most psychic powers carry with them a duration of effect; you spend your ISP and the power remains in effect for a given period of time. But what if after that you use a power that prohibits the use of all other psychic powers? Does that blocking power negate all presently activated powers, or just preclude the use of any others from that point on as the duration of the active one times out?

Example: Say a 5th level Mind Melter activates the power of Psi-Sword, spending 30 ISP in the process and getting a psychic weapon that will remain up and usable for 25 minutes. Five minutes later he spots a CS Dog Pack in the distance and wants to hide his presence, so he activates the power of Mask ISP & Psionics. However, one of the stipulations of that concealing power is that "...he cannot use any of his psionic senses or abilities..." (RUE 174) Does that mean that he can use no further psychic abilities/powers till the Mask power's duration elapses (or the power is canceled) but the Psi-Sword remains in effect because it was activated before Mask ISP & Psi, or does the Psi-Sword vanish when Mask is activated despite the fact that 30 ISP had already been expended for it and the ample remaining time on its duration?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The ones still active don't just shut down. Otherwise Intutive Combat becomes completely useless.

What makes you think that it's NOT completely useless?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The ones still active don't just shut down. Otherwise Intutive Combat becomes completely useless.

What makes you think that it's NOT completely useless?

Cognitive dissonance?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The ones still active don't just shut down. Otherwise Intutive Combat becomes completely useless.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It says "cannot use," not "cannot activate new powers."

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It says "cannot use," not "cannot activate new powers."

But it does not say, "terminates powers who's durations have not lapsed yet". There's a flexible ambiguity in the language that I'm trying to sort out due to Palladium's classic lack of clarification.

Dead Boy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The ones still active don't just shut down. Otherwise Intutive Combat becomes completely useless.

Hmmm, I missed that one. So it is your supposition that preexisting utility trumps the diminished capacity brought about powers with this limitation?

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Usually if someone already stated my opinion I won't post, but since you're looking for numbers I guess I will.

I would have to side with active powers can still be used (with limitations). At least that's my stance for practicality, though by the rules the other way (all powers are deactivated) can very easily be argued. While I believe Mind Block had originally been intended to work that way (deactivating all), powers added after (such as Intuitive Combat and/or Mask I.S.P. & Psionics) would end up being mostly useless. The limitation (in my opinion) would be that it must be limited to the body of the psychic, and anything active cannot be changed or receive new input (since this last statement is probably not clear, I'll give examples).

Example 1: A character activates Alter Aura, changing a few factors. After he uses Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. The altered aura remains. As he walks along though, he realizes he made a mistake with the way he adjusted his aura and wants to change it. Too darn bad. It's stuck like that until he can use psionics again.

Example 2: A Cyber-Knight uses both psi-swords, then uses a Mind Block. As long as the Mind Block is up, he won't be able to adjust the color, size, or shape of those psi-swords.

Example 3: A Mind Melter activates his Super Telekinesis, then activates Mask P.P.E., and followed by Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. He figures this should effectively disguise himself, and if something goes down he'll still have the telekinesis to help bail him out. While Super Telekinesis is still active it requires manipulating outside factors. So the character can't move anything because the Mask I.S.P. & Psionics is blocking that ability.

Example 4: A master psychic has Sixth Sense goes off. He decides to prep himself for combat. First he activates his Psi-Sword, throws on a Psychic Body Field, decides to throw in Telepathy so he can communicate with allies, and then uses Intuitive Combat for extra bonuses. ((Okay, I've actually debated whether or not Sixth Sense and Intuitive Combat can stack, but if it can't then Intuitive Combat would rarely be worth taking, but that's a different topic entirely.)) Psi-Sword and Psychic Body Field would remain active, as would Telepathy, it's just that he couldn't listen to anyone's thoughts or send telepathic messages because it would require active use (which is blocked). If the psychic drops Intuitive Combat during the duration, he probably could still use Telepathy without spending more I.S.P. to reactivate it, it's just he couldn't actively use it.

Hmm ... I guess basically it would have to be a static ability, something that stays the same during its use. Nothing that can be changed, given new targets, continues to receive new information, etc. At least that would be my take on it. Feel free to use it, ignore it, think I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about, I only added the thought because the original poster asked for more opinions. I hope some of that helped. If not, sorry for wasting your time. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Nemo235 wrote:However I do see an alternative, which is how I may house-rule it.
The intent of the power is defense against mental inlfuence or control.
A GM could rule that the character could not use any other mind affecting or sensory psi power (Telepathy, Empathy, See Aura, Intuitive Combat, etc.), but may still use physical or psychokinetic psi powers (Telekinesis, Psi-Sword, Pyrokinesis, etc.)
The GM would have to list which powers are "mind affacting or sensory" and which ones are "physical or psychokinetic".
...
PS: I included Intuitive Combat with the mental/sensory powers because it already exclusively says it can't be used with Mind Block.

Nemo235 wrote:I know this goes beyond the rules as written, but here's why: Mind Block Auto-Defense.

Dead Boy wrote:Say in Example 4, after the master psychic mediated and got his Intuitive Combat power warmed up, what if his power of Sixth Sense had cause to go off yet again? Technically that power is always activated and sips ISP as needed; right? Would it be able to warn of dangers to others, or just dangers to the master psi himself, or would it not work at all?

Actually, Mind Block Auto-Defense does not have the same limitation on it as the regular version, unless we are going to assume it's there despite not being stated in the superior power's description.

Dead Boy wrote:

Nemo235 wrote:...
PS: I included Intuitive Combat with the mental/sensory powers because it already exclusively says it can't be used with Mind Block.

But how would you handle situations where the power in question is instead Intuitive Combat, which carries the same limitation as Mind Block but has a different effect? Would you go just the opposite given the different powers, despite the identical limitation? Shouldn't there be a greater degree of uniformity for powers saddled with the same limiting factor?

Dead Boy wrote:

Nemo235 wrote:I know this goes beyond the rules as written, but here's why: Mind Block Auto-Defense.

Actually, Mind Block Auto-Defense does not have the same limitation on it as the regular version, unless we are going to assume it's there despite not being stated in the superior power's description.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Usually if someone already stated my opinion I won't post, but since you're looking for numbers I guess I will. I would have to side with active powers can still be used (with limitations). At least that's my stance for practicality, though by the rules the other way (all powers are deactivated) can very easily be argued. While I believe Mind Block had originally been inteded to work that way (deactivating all), powers added after (such as Intuitive Combat and/or Mask I.S.P. & Psionics) would end up being mostly useless. The limitation (in my opinion) would be that it must be limited to the body of the psychic, and anything active cannot be changed or receive new input (since this last statement is probably not clear, I'll give examples).

Example 1: A character activates Alter Aura, changing a few factors. After he uses Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. The altered aura remains. As he walks along though, he realizes he made a mistake with the way he adjusted his aura and wants to change it. Too darn bad. It's stuck like that until he can use psionics again.

Example 2: A Cyber-Knight uses both psi-swords, then uses a Mind Block. As long as the Mind Block is up, he won't be able to adjust the color, size, or shape of those psi-swords.

Example 3: A Mind Melter activates his Super Telekinesis, then activates Mask P.P.E., and followed by Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. He figures this should effectively disguise himself, and if something goes down he'll still have the telekinesis to help bail him out. While Super Telekinesis is still active it requires manipulating outside factors. So the character can't move anything because the Mask I.S.P. & Psionics is blocking that ability.

Example 4: A master psychic has Sixth Sense goes off. He decides to prep himself for combat. First he activates his Psi-Sword, throws on a Psychic Body Field, decides to throw in Telepathy so he can communicate with allies, and then uses Intuitive Combat for extra bonuses. ((Okay, I've actually debated whether or not Sixth Sense and Intuitive Combat can stack, but if it can't then Intuitive Combat would rarely be worth taking, but that's a different topic entirely.)) Psi-Sword and Psychic Body Field would remain active, as would Telepathy, it's just that he couldn't listen to anyone's thoughts or send telepathic messages because it would require active use (which is blocked). If the psychic drops Intuitive Combat during the duration, he probably could still use Telepathy without spending more I.S.P. to reactivate it, it's just he couldn't actively use it.

Hmm ... I guess basically it would have to be a static ability, something that stays the same during its use. Nothing that can be changed, given new targets, continues to receive new information, etc. At least that would be my take on it. Feel free to use it, ignore it, think I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about, I only added the thought because the original poster asked for more opinions. I hope some of that helped. If not, sorry for wasting your time. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:Actually, Mind Block Auto-Defense does not have the same limitation on it as the regular version, unless we are going to assume it's there despite not being stated in the superior power's description.

I make that assumption.
Mind Block AD states that a Mind Block goes up, referring back to the original power.
It doesn't list the "blocks off all powers" weakness of the original power, but neither does it list most of the benefits.
So if Mind Block AD doesn't get the downsides of the original Mind Block simply because it doesn't specifically restate them, then logically neither does it get any of the advantages of the original power because those aren't listed either.
The only thing Mind Block AD mentions is that you have to consciously lower your mind shield in order to be probed by telepathy or empathy, so it wouldn't be completely useless, though.

Dead Boy wrote:Ok, I think we have a first. I'm calling this a Double Whammy ruling in regards to both Prusus' answer on the original question and Killer Cyborg's on the tangent question that arose out of the discussion.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. Usually if someone already stated my opinion I won't post, but since you're looking for numbers I guess I will. I would have to side with active powers can still be used (with limitations). At least that's my stance for practicality, though by the rules the other way (all powers are deactivated) can very easily be argued. While I believe Mind Block had originally been inteded to work that way (deactivating all), powers added after (such as Intuitive Combat and/or Mask I.S.P. & Psionics) would end up being mostly useless. The limitation (in my opinion) would be that it must be limited to the body of the psychic, and anything active cannot be changed or receive new input (since this last statement is probably not clear, I'll give examples).

Example 1: A character activates Alter Aura, changing a few factors. After he uses Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. The altered aura remains. As he walks along though, he realizes he made a mistake with the way he adjusted his aura and wants to change it. Too darn bad. It's stuck like that until he can use psionics again.

Example 2: A Cyber-Knight uses both psi-swords, then uses a Mind Block. As long as the Mind Block is up, he won't be able to adjust the color, size, or shape of those psi-swords.

Example 3: A Mind Melter activates his Super Telekinesis, then activates Mask P.P.E., and followed by Mask I.S.P. & Psionics. He figures this should effectively disguise himself, and if something goes down he'll still have the telekinesis to help bail him out. While Super Telekinesis is still active it requires manipulating outside factors. So the character can't move anything because the Mask I.S.P. & Psionics is blocking that ability.

Example 4: A master psychic has Sixth Sense goes off. He decides to prep himself for combat. First he activates his Psi-Sword, throws on a Psychic Body Field, decides to throw in Telepathy so he can communicate with allies, and then uses Intuitive Combat for extra bonuses. ((Okay, I've actually debated whether or not Sixth Sense and Intuitive Combat can stack, but if it can't then Intuitive Combat would rarely be worth taking, but that's a different topic entirely.)) Psi-Sword and Psychic Body Field would remain active, as would Telepathy, it's just that he couldn't listen to anyone's thoughts or send telepathic messages because it would require active use (which is blocked). If the psychic drops Intuitive Combat during the duration, he probably could still use Telepathy without spending more I.S.P. to reactivate it, it's just he couldn't actively use it.

Hmm ... I guess basically it would have to be a static ability, something that stays the same during its use. Nothing that can be changed, given new targets, continues to receive new information, etc. At least that would be my take on it. Feel free to use it, ignore it, think I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about, I only added the thought because the original poster asked for more opinions. I hope some of that helped. If not, sorry for wasting your time. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

1st ANSWER ACCEPTED

Killer Cyborg wrote:Mind Block AD states that a Mind Block goes up, referring back to the original power.
It doesn't list the "blocks off all powers" weakness of the original power, but neither does it list most of the benefits.
So if Mind Block AD doesn't get the downsides of the original Mind Block simply because it doesn't specifically restate them, then logically neither does it get any of the advantages of the original power because those aren't listed either.
The only thing Mind Block AD mentions is that you have to consciously lower your mind shield in order to be probed by telepathy or empathy, so it wouldn't be completely useless, though.

2nd ANSWER ACCEPTED

Nemo235 wrote:From the Psionics FAQ:
#21: Author: Guest, Posted: 6 Apr 2007 18:13
Question: Intuitive Combat says cannot use any Psionic powers while its activated. does that mean none activated during its duration or no new ones activated. Say for example a Cyber Knight has his Psi sword on, does he have to turn it off to activate this power?

Answer: This means no other psionic powers can be used, if the power was already activated, it becomes deactivated, and no other psionic powers can be activated while using Intuitive Combat.

From the Heroes Unlimited FAQ:
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:32 pm
Question: Wayne, How do you interpret the rules for concentration in combat regarding super powers, i.e. what can a character do or not do if they are trying to maintain force fields, mental illusions or what have you?

Answer: If there are limitations given in the power itself, then it is demanding enough to require such penalties (i.e. lost attacks, penalties, etc). If there are no noted penalties, then the character is able to maintain that ability with no adverse effects on their combat performance; however, because they are concentrating on that power they can not use any other super/psionic/magical ability until they let it lapse. Likewise, other skills and abilities requiring concentration would be impossible or heavily penalized, including aimed shots and any skill roll with modifiers (such as lockpicking, hacking, construction, etc).

Dead Boy wrote:Either way, that categorically sucks and makes Intuitive Combat completely useless for a lot of characters out there.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:Either way, that categorically sucks and makes Intuitive Combat completely useless for a lot of characters out there.

Correct- it is a completely useless power for most characters.
In fact, about the only characters that it would work for would be minor psychics that only have one other power that is something they'd never need to use during combat, AND generally knows two melees ahead of time when he/she is going to get into a fight.

Come to think of it, it might pair up well with 6th Sense, except they've pretty well castrated 6th Sense into similar uselessness.

SamtheDagger wrote:I thought I'd bring up a point that hasn't been noted in this conversation. RUE 366 under Psionic Attacks per Melee: "Some psionic abilities can be used in conjunction with others, but in most cases, one psionic ability must end before another can be used." (emphasis my own)

For this reason I say in the OP's example the psi-sword power would have to end before the mask ISP & psionics power could be used. In particular I say this because the mask ISP & psionics power specifically addresses the issue of whether a psychic can use other powers in conjunction. Because the rules tell me in most cases one power has to end before another can be used, I don't see the psi-sword hanging in some kind of limbo and just not being usable until the mask ISP & psionics power is over as an option.

Dead Boy wrote:

SamtheDagger wrote:I thought I'd bring up a point that hasn't been noted in this conversation. RUE 366 under Psionic Attacks per Melee: "Some psionic abilities can be used in conjunction with others, but in most cases, one psionic ability must end before another can be used." (emphasis my own)

For this reason I say in the OP's example the psi-sword power would have to end before the mask ISP & psionics power could be used. In particular I say this because the mask ISP & psionics power specifically addresses the issue of whether a psychic can use other powers in conjunction. Because the rules tell me in most cases one power has to end before another can be used, I don't see the psi-sword hanging in some kind of limbo and just not being usable until the mask ISP & psionics power is over as an option.

Well, that is a good find, I admit. But what about Intuitive Combat? It carries the same burdening limitation, but is made to enhance the psychic's ability in combat. What sense does it make to improve one's fighting prowess, and then tie their hands behind their back by negating all other powers?

SamtheDagger wrote:I thought I'd bring up a point that hasn't been noted in this conversation. RUE 366 under Psionic Attacks per Melee: "Some psionic abilities can be used in conjunction with others, but in most cases, one psionic ability must end before another can be used." (emphasis my own)