Weapon damage issues

[ghost2020]

Between the equipment and the skill sections, the weapon damages are all different for rifles, pistols, etc.

What's the deal there?

[rat_bastard]

My group use this site's definitions.

It makes zombies much less dangerous and other survivors much more dangerous.

[Rockwolf66]

Basically,
Palladium's firearms rules are getting worse and worse as far as realism goes. I use the rules as found in the origional version of Rifts as they are alot better in play that the most recent stuff.

[azazel1024]

My group use this site's definitions.

It makes zombies much less dangerous and other survivors much more dangerous.

It is still not exactly a realistic list, but it is much better then Palladiums normal list.

For a fairly acceptable list use Palladiums Weapons and Firearms book. The Dead Reign weapons damages are frankly bunk (at least for firearms).

Unless Zombies have gotten supernaturally tough, a single .223 is more then enough to penetrate a zombie skull and cause sufficient trauma to kill the zombie. Based on current rules/weapone dice and SDC of the zombie it is quite probable that 3-6 rounds striking would be required to kill one. If you hit (the head), it is pretty much dead.

Frankly though that would basically be true of most weapons except for low caliber pistols and buckshot at longer ranges. Now a glancing hit even from a higher caliber weapon might not penetrate or cause enough damage to really kill a zombie, but odds are good if you hit it is going through and killing the zombie.

2d6 damage from a pistol say versus maybe 45 S.D.C. is just way out there, that is nearly an entire clip to put one down (supposing you hit with every bullet). Really it should be just 1-2 hits should do it (or heck at worse 2-3 supposing say a Zombie can live with a lot more brain trauma then a person can).

I guess my point is, that using the Palladium Firearms and Weapons books rules for quadruple damage from a head shot should continue to apply for zombies. Nothing really says they are supernaturally tough, just twice as strong as when living and there isn't much that can be damaged on a zombie that will stop them other then brain trauma or taking their head off (can temporarily stop them if you beat them up enough).

So a 2d6 damage revolver is resonable enough if that same one does quadruple damage on a headshot to a zombie. 2d6x4 is a bit more realistic to something with say 45 S.D.C. if you say that is what their heads have (8 to 48 damage, average 28, so on average 2 hits with a lower caliber revolver, probably just 1 with a high caliber pistol)

Now then with people if you are just hitting them, that would mean it takes a few hits to stop a person. Not necessarily realistic, but RPGable. A zombie that takes a clip to stop it (or even half a clip) means that you never can do much more then 1 on 1 or else your only chance is running. Even from a long distance you are going to blaze through ammo to stop a shambling group before it can get to you and you might only stop 3 or 4 before they can shamble across that football field and turn you in to one of them (and probably use 20 or 30 bullets at least).

I don't pretend this is resident evil (but, hey cool movie/game), but with some halfway decent marksmanship (or markswomanship) a single PC should be able to take on at least 4 or 5 zeds and not have to go crying home to their mommy.
-Matt

[rat_bastard]

Unless Zombies have gotten supernaturally tough, a single .223 is more then enough to penetrate a zombie skull and cause sufficient trauma to kill the zombie. Based on current rules/weapone dice and SDC of the zombie it is quite probable that 3-6 rounds striking would be required to kill one. If you hit (the head), it is pretty much dead.

Matty, how many Zombies have you killed?

I'm going to guess that you have never killed a zombie as they are fictional.

what I am getting at is that it is impossible to know exactly how much trauma it will take to kill a Zombie because they are not real.

A standard .223 round is a needle, it makes a tiny hole going in and going out and does most of its damage by poking holes in arteries and organs, neither of which is that vital to a zombie's existence.

[Rockwolf66]

Rat,
Unless something makes zombie flesh much tougher than it's origional human form a zombie is very easy to cripple and hit's to the head are very often lethal.

Even if you use an insaine/doped to the gills human as an example. There is alot of structural damage that can be done to stop something that feels no pain and will keep going after dozens of gunshot wounds to non-vital areas.

[azazel1024]

Unless Zombies have gotten supernaturally tough, a single .223 is more then enough to penetrate a zombie skull and cause sufficient trauma to kill the zombie. Based on current rules/weapone dice and SDC of the zombie it is quite probable that 3-6 rounds striking would be required to kill one. If you hit (the head), it is pretty much dead.

Matty, how many Zombies have you killed?

I'm going to guess that you have never killed a zombie as they are fictional.

what I am getting at is that it is impossible to know exactly how much trauma it will take to kill a Zombie because they are not real.

A standard .223 round is a needle, it makes a tiny hole going in and going out and does most of its damage by poking holes in arteries and organs, neither of which is that vital to a zombie's existence.

I certainly get that, as I said, for a head shot. Even a steel core .223 is going to cause some serious brain trauma. You have bone fragments scattered through the brain, the round is likely to tumble and might fragment, it is certainly going to deform to some degree combined with hydrostatic shock through the brain.

If you are just hitting its body, sure you could probably empty a whole 30 round clip and to stop a zombie you might get lucky if you break enough bones (such as spinal column) to make it non-mobile or poorly mobile. If you are going for head shots, I don't see it taking more then 1 or 2 hits.
-matt

[rat_bastard]

Unless Zombies have gotten supernaturally tough, a single .223 is more then enough to penetrate a zombie skull and cause sufficient trauma to kill the zombie. Based on current rules/weapone dice and SDC of the zombie it is quite probable that 3-6 rounds striking would be required to kill one. If you hit (the head), it is pretty much dead.

Matty, how many Zombies have you killed?

I'm going to guess that you have never killed a zombie as they are fictional.

what I am getting at is that it is impossible to know exactly how much trauma it will take to kill a Zombie because they are not real.

A standard .223 round is a needle, it makes a tiny hole going in and going out and does most of its damage by poking holes in arteries and organs, neither of which is that vital to a zombie's existence.

I certainly get that, as I said, for a head shot. Even a steel core .223 is going to cause some serious brain trauma. You have bone fragments scattered through the brain, the round is likely to tumble and might fragment, it is certainly going to deform to some degree combined with hydrostatic shock through the brain.

If you are just hitting its body, sure you could probably empty a whole 30 round clip and to stop a zombie you might get lucky if you break enough bones (such as spinal column) to make it non-mobile or poorly mobile. If you are going for head shots, I don't see it taking more then 1 or 2 hits.
-matt

Important note, the average zombie brain has 20 sdc (22 for a thinker), using the rules I provided a .223/5.56 deals 5d6 (5-30) average 15. If you load a hollow/soft point it deals +5 damage (10-35) average 20.

Meaning most of the time a .223/5.56 will kill a zombie in one hit, but using a normal .223/5.56 round its still within the realm of believability that one round will not sufficiently pulverize the brain, and with the characteristics of the round I don't see skull fragments playing enough of a role unless its a expanding round.

That said a clip fed semi-automatic .223/5.56 rifle is my #1 choice when dealing with zombies.

[azazel1024]

I guess I need to re-read the book, I thought it was 45SDC, maybe I am thinking mainbody SDC.
-Matt

[ghost2020]

Ahem...back on topic...
The skills version of the weapon damages is different from the equipment version.
I mean, didn't anyone look at this to make sure they were the same? I say pick one and stick to it.

Seriously though....what's the deal?

...and yes I agree the firearms rules are just going downhill at a very quick rate, have been for years.