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Let me preface this by saying: Unfortunatly, my Palladium experience is mostly based off Robotech. When I played old-school Robotech, we didn't concern ourselves with the rules as much as just playing the game and being goofy with Robotech. (My high school team let Lynn Minmei die and thought they should GET XP for that.)

While the goal of my games is still to have fun, I try to run em closer to rules nowadays then I did when I was younger. So, I kind of pick em apart a bit more than I used to back in the day. A curiosity came to me however...

Page 161 of the main rule book (Deluxe edition) states that you can only dodge so-many missiles before it becomes IMPOSSIBLE.

Is this a hold-over from RIFTS? It seems that visually speaking, there were plenty of examples in Robotech (Or at the least, Macross) in which the Veritechs could easily dodge lots of missiles. (Of course, the most famous example of this in my mind doesn't come from Robotech but instead Macross Plus in which both the 19 and the 21 easily dodge LOTS of missiles...)

Page 168 meanwhile, has a random missile assualt from Capital Ships rule which seems to be much more akin to the classic Macross style. The way I see it, you could then simulate it by launching 20 missiles, and have the player dodge versus sections of the volley. (4 missiles or so at a time, each time taking an action.)

It just seems like eventually, the player is likely to run out of dodge-actions. (Well, okay... I do see a problem in the form of the VF-1 Valkyrie's ability to auto-dodge in fighter form... but at the same time, that would play to the previously stated Macross image.)

Or am I off? Is there something game breaking (Besides House ruling) that I'm not noticing? Do I run the risk of my Veritechs not taking damage anymore?

(I don't mean for this to sound like the rule is wrong. I just thought that it would look and feel more like the Robotech/Macross image I always had of crazy acrobatics through an Itano Circus of missiles.)

Missile Dodging is always a tough subject when your talking about Robotech and Macross. Lots of folks like the idea that they can dodge 1,5,10, or 100 missiles. But how does this really play out in combat on the screen?

I always look at it from Player vs. Target mode. Each Player has X amount of attacks, while the Target has Y amount of attacks. Y also has so many missiles. On screen you usually see them blow their 'Wad' sort of speak with all their missiles. In this case, I would divide that number of missiles by the number of attacks the Target has. Thus the number should be far less than 60 missiles in one volley. The Player now has the option to dodge (if available) or use some sort of countermeasures. Countermeasures are a new feature to Robotech.

Players also are a different breed than most characters in Robotech in my book. So they should be epic, and be able to fire all missiles and then use the gunpod, and dodge, unlike my previous example.

i perfer to apply a -1 penalty to the dodge for evey missile above 3. thus you can dodge those big volleys, it's just krutzing hard.

You can't forget the effect that chaff and/or flares have on missiles as well.

I allow for the pilots to attempt evasive action on their piloting skill in these multiple missile situations.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:You can't forget the effect that chaff and/or flares have on missiles as well.

i use this tactic dodge and chaff and/or flares / smoke add or lower the penalty to real life combat condition from watching all the show to have an idea and dogfights as well

The No Dodging 4 or more rule first appeared in Robotech and was then passed along to Rifts before it found it's way back.

Jefffar wrote:The No Dodging 4 or more rule first appeared in Robotech and was then passed along to Rifts before it found it's way back.

your right that is the rule but making the use of the other may make even one missiles stray from target given some hope to dodge the rest . look at dogfight from history channel that how i came with tactic it does not always work but hell it is handy your turn

My house rule on dodging missies: At first level a pilot can dodge 3 missiles. For every level the character gains in experience they can dodge one more missile. This said a level 6th mecha pilot can dodge 9 missiles. If that same 6th level character is attacked by 10 missiles they can still roll to dodge, if successful 9 of the missiles lose track of the target, but one will still hit.

This allows fro the more experienced pilots to evade larger volleys of missiles.

ECM and chaff/flares are big things in my games as well. I use real life missile guidance systems, which means ECM does not work on every missile.

jedi078 wrote:My house rule on dodging missies: At first level a pilot can dodge 3 missiles. For every level the character gains in experience they can dodge one more missile. This said a level 6th mecha pilot can dodge 9 missiles. If that same 6th level character is attacked by 10 missiles they can still roll to dodge, if successful 9 of the missiles lose track of the target, but one will still hit.

This allows fro the more experienced pilots to evade larger volleys of missiles.

ECM and chaff/flares are big things in my games as well. I use real life missile guidance systems, which means ECM does not work on every missile.

are very important (any more of 1 to 3 very important in combat )
1)chaff ( radar/ motion systems )
and/or
2)flares good against heat systems
3)smoke good against give cover to player
4)E.C.M very important
5 ) piloting very important
6) last where the missiles are coming from

all ,this are a factor from a VF to any fly vehicles

Tiree: You know, that's a good point... both DYRL and most of the games show the Valkyries targeting multiple things and letting loose, splitting up volleys. (Perhaps similar to the Random Assualt Rule.)

I guess it really comes down to making judgement calls during the missions/actual play. If the players are getting battered down, give em more oppertunities to dodge... if they start getting too cocky, chip away at their invulnerability?

So Random Regult's targeting and tactics are a bit easier to fight... Miriya Parino on the other hand makes sure her missiles hit EXACTLY what she wants them to. (Unless the player is doing his damn best to deploy chaff and shoot em down.)

I actually admitadlly JUST noticed the countermeasures rules. That is rather new and cool!

I actually admitadlly JUST noticed the countermeasures rules. That is rather new and cool!

IN WHICH BOOK?

ZINO wrote:are very important (any more of 1 to 3 very important in combat )
1)chaff ( radar/ motion systems )
and/or
2)flares good against heat systems
3)smoke good against give cover to player
4)E.C.M very important
5 ) piloting very important
6) last where the missiles are coming from

all ,this are a factor from a VF to any fly vehicles

Problem is, per the books most missiles, (save a select few) are semi-radar guided, or simply unguided. This means flares are useless altogether.

As for smoke, a common military tactic is if those your shooting at use smoke and use it to screen their movement you shoot at the cloud of smoke, preferably with a machinegun.

Zino: I know that for the VF-1 Valkyrie, the Countermeasure dispensers are a listed system on page 58
Alphas get it on page 99 (Of the manga version, too lazy to check the Deluxe version right now.)

Ninjapuppy: That's not a bad way either... and kinda lives up to the series, where the pilot flies his way through some, shifts to Battloid, and unloads his gunpod on the missiles. *laughs*

Page 161 of the main rule book (Deluxe edition) states that you can only dodge so-many missiles before it becomes IMPOSSIBLE.

It does make a certain amount of sense.

Is this a hold-over from RIFTS? It seems that visually speaking, there were plenty of examples in Robotech (Or at the least, Macross) in which the Veritechs could easily dodge lots of missiles.

Some of the rules are reposted from Rifts Ultimate edition where missile guidance systems took a hit. The dodging rules though date back to the original RT RPG (maybe even farther back).

As for RT firing off large missile volleys, New Generation Alpha's emptying their missile racks on a few occassions. Otherwise missile volleys tend to be smaller and more comparable across generations though.

To reconcile the RPG rules with the animation (more so due to the animation's "regenerating" racks) I have begun to wonder if RT doesn't employ some type of multi-sensor decoy system with missiles that are launched. Essentially creating a technological effect similiar to the "Multiple Image" Spell in the Palladium system. So while we "see" a large volley of missiles fired off, not all of them are "real".

In order to use this approach though in the game, the shooter would have to record the mix before/after the launch, but before any rolls are made and then revealing it only after the strike/defense rolls are made . In this way the defender can not know the mix of the missiles and react accordingly (and the shooter can't fail and change the mix). The defender can still attempt to dodge even if it appears to be 4 or more, but can only be sucessful if the "real" missiles fall under the rules.

Ninjapuppy wrote:I hate to burst the technical bubble to, but it is possible that Robotechnology has created computers smart enough that they can identify objects visually as a human does! This means that even if chaffs or flares are used, the computer may see like a human eye does and the computer " see's" the chaffs, flares, and the Mecha and targets them accordingly. The targetting systems may not use heat or radar!

Actually, just found out that this is how the guided missles do work! ( see pg.38).

and yet the strike bonuses in the new books suck.... unless otherwise stated missiles have a +0 to strike. Launch systems that provide guidance is noted as ‘uncommon.’ Guided missiles are noted as 'rare.' But yet in the real world the majority of missiles use a guidance system.

No I think I'll continue to use real life missile guidance systems in my games, like I have been doing for the past 5 years, instead of the crap listed in the book.

jedi078 wrote:

Ninjapuppy wrote:I hate to burst the technical bubble to, but it is possible that Robotechnology has created computers smart enough that they can identify objects visually as a human does! This means that even if chaffs or flares are used, the computer may see like a human eye does and the computer " see's" the chaffs, flares, and the Mecha and targets them accordingly. The targetting systems may not use heat or radar!

Actually, just found out that this is how the guided missles do work! ( see pg.38).

and yet the strike bonuses in the new books suck.... unless otherwise stated missiles have a +0 to strike. Launch systems that provide guidance is noted as ‘uncommon.’ Guided missiles are noted as 'rare.' But yet in the real world the majority of missiles use a guidance system.

No I think I'll continue to use real life missile guidance systems in my games, like I have been doing for the past 5 years, instead of the crap listed in the book.

meh, that's a leftover from RIFTS. ignore it.

Ayradon wrote:The real problem is that the canon robotech is based on 1982 technology and this creates a problem. To remain canon all the weapons and equipment are less powerful than real world equivalents. What really needs to happen is an adjustment for RL weapons systems in exsistance now or in the near future.

I personally have redone all the weapon and energy damages and am working on new missiles which are more current with what we have now.

So have I.

Ayradon wrote:This is where it would be nice to have some coop between HG and the creators of Macross because Macross has continued to evolve and move forward with technology while HG is stuck in the 80's. I don't know how people would feel about injecting tech advances into Robotech but I am all for it as I am not stuck on being canon. I for one use the multitude of sites that have the Macross equipment and use that instead of Robotech equipment as I feel that Macross is closer to what Robotech should be than Robotech itself is.

I have interjected tech advances into my RT games for nearly the past five years, and there is no problem.

Here is what needs to be fixed with the Robotech RPG (and for the most part every Palladium game as well).

1) Destriods should have WAY more MDC then Veritechs. I don't care if a veritech is a so called "hero mecha". The result is you have fewer players willing to run Destriod pilots simply because the game mechanics screw them over (less MDC and crappy dodge bonuses). Common sense needs to be used. This means the size of a mecha and whether or not it is transformable has to be taken into account when determining its MDC. The smaller the mecha the less the MDC it has. A bigger mecha means more MDC. A transformable would have 50% less MDC then the transformable mecha, but benefits in having a greater bonus to dodge.

2) There needs to be gradual progression of weapons damages throughout the three/four Robotech eras, and for all palladium books. This means there is not three different damage listings for one specific round type (i.e the 50 cal). A ten round burst of 55mm ammo should do WAY more MDC then a ten (or even a 20) round burst of 12.7mm ammo. The same needs to be done for conventional ammo, as well as MDC weapons.

3) We have seen in the Robotech Cartoon/Anime that mecha get hit once and get blown to hell. Well if the cartoon is canon, then for the RPG to be cannon a player’s mecha should be able to go down after a few hits.

4) Now in my defense, I have been running online games for the past five years with the above changes in place, and it works. My games are deadly (very deadly), but as my players have said: “Without the fear of character death, the story gets stagnant.” Fact is if your PC has the possibility of getting killed in every encounter then it is more exciting. Every decision has a consequence, and every roll of the dice has meaning. This train of thought is the primary reason why I have successfully ran PBP games for nearly five years. I have blatantly asked my players what makes my games so fun and that is the answer.

Rick survives getting shot down and crashing through buildings on Macross Island, got nailed by a full salvo of every missle in a Theater Scout, he survived taking severe damage in a duel with Khyron (who, I believe, had earlier that episode one-shotted a Tomahawk), he made it through being hit by a volley from a freakin' Daedalus Attack, and takes yet another full-on missile volley during "Force of Arms".

It may be plot immunity, but its disingenous to only look at the folks in the background dying as soon as the enemy breathes on them and ignoring all the stuff the main characters and their mecha survive. Heck, I'd say its pretty interesting Roy Fokker's plot immunity ran out, but Skull One's never does, taking the direct hits from a Q-Rau that spell Fokker's end and still being ready for Rick's return to duty. The game obviously took the tact that PCs have simular plot immunity.

Its pretty silly to claim things are inconsistent compared to canon when canon is inconsistent in and of itself.

Not that there aren't flaws in stats in the game, but there's more than one style of game besides "pcs on the edge of death at all times", and they can be just as enjoyable. Just because your games are alot of fun doesn't meant that only your kind of game is alot of fun, or that it should obviously be the default. Now me personally, I'm inclined to up weapon damages instead of lowering armor. I have no problem with PCs crashing through buildings and annihilating cars without so much as scuffing their paint; I find that well within the realm of what reverse-engineered Robotech Master technology should be capable of. Flying tanks (at least, compared to modern aircraft) seems to be to be exactly what armor technology light-years ahead of modern tech could do.

Not wading into THIS scrum, even in a class-4 hazz-mat & bombsuit.
Carry on gentlemen, carry on.

In all, this is the problem with MDC. Too much protection requires too much damage to get through it creating the need for weapons that continually end up causing the required damage; however, all too often the size and weight of the weapon seems to decrease at the same time. This creates a horribly over-powered universe in which the weapon sysyems become the real focus of the game and not the character.

I allow my players to dodge a number of missiles equal to their PP Attribute at their regular Dodge Bonus. To Dodge more then that inflicts a Dodge Penalty of -2 per missile up to PP+5, -5 per missile from PP+6 to PP+15, -10 from PP+16 to PP+25, -15 from PP+26 to PP+50, -20 from PP+51 and up. This means that once the -20-level is reached only a character's bonuses and Natural 20's can save him from being hit. I created this rule after watching Isamu Dyson dodge every missile fired at him in Macross Plus.

Glad you like it. My players LOVE it when they are rolling well, but they HATE it when they are off.

Ayradon wrote:I think what is missing here also is that the actual vehicle speed is not being accounted for:

That is- If a VF fires a mini-missile with a speed of 500mph and is traveling at 1500mph then the actual missile speed is 2000mph. This gives even less time to dodge at close range.

For longer ranges this is less of a factor. Or if the missile is fired while in Battloid mode or from a destroid then only the missile speed need be used as the relative low speeds of these units would not add to a missiles velocity.

This is false. If your missile's speed is only 500mph and your vehicle's speed is 1,500mph, you will outrun your own missile by 1,000mph. You do not add the speed of the vehicle to the speed of the missile. The missile will be released from the vehicle at 1,500mph and it will quickly lose speed until it is traveling at its maximum speed (500mph). In real life, missiles travel faster than the vehicle from which they are fired. The speeds for missiles listed in the book are assnine!

I use the following speeds in my games:
Short-Range (Within Visual Range or "Dogfight") Missiles: 0.6-11.3 mile (1-18km) range at Mach 2.5 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 2")
Medium-Range (Beyond Visual Range) Missiles: 19.2-130 mile (32-208km) range at Mach 4 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 3")
Long-Range (Beyond Visual Range) Missiles: 115+ mile (184+km) range at Mach 5 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 4")

This makes the missiles better able to catch up to the Veritechs. Otherwise, who needs to dodge in the first place?

Beatmeclever wrote:I use the following speeds in my games:
Short-Range (Within Visual Range or "Dogfight") Missiles: 0.6-11.3 mile (1-18km) range at Mach 2.5 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 2")
Medium-Range (Beyond Visual Range) Missiles: 19.2-130 mile (32-208km) range at Mach 4 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 3")
Long-Range (Beyond Visual Range) Missiles: 115+ mile (184+km) range at Mach 5 (Brevity code for launch "Fox 4")

This makes the missiles better able to catch up to the Veritechs. Otherwise, who needs to dodge in the first place?

I too ignore the missile speeds from the books, and just generally say the missiles are faster then the mecha launching them.

Also on the subject of Brevity code Fox code designate the guidance of the missile which is launched. But since we have little or no rules for missile guidance systems per the books designating a fox code for the type of missile (SRM, MRM, LRM) isn’t all that bad. Although I do have/use missile guidance rules adapted from Kitsune’s Webpage, and so I do use the proper fox code.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_(code_word)

jedi078 wrote:I too ignore the missile speeds from the books, and just generally say the missiles are faster then the mecha launching them.

Also on the subject of Brevity code Fox code designate the guidance of the missile which is launched. But since we have little or no rules for missile guidance systems per the books designating a fox code for the type of missile (SRM, MRM, LRM) isn’t all that bad. Although I do have/use missile guidance rules adapted from Kitsune’s Webpage, and so I do use the proper fox code.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_(code_word)

Thanks for the link. I'll start using the right codes from here on.

personaly I use a default of +3 systems for most missles, but sometimes I allow the old smart or other missle types. it all depends

lets face it you can either have a complicated think like trying to account for things like comand guidance via things like lasers and wire gideance and/or heat seaking/radar seaking and so on

or you can keep it fairly simple.

I like the explanation that when it looks like heroes in the anime are dodging HUGE volleys that they were actually doing multiple dodges against multiple smaller volleys...

But it still does not address the issue that some bots can still fire those huge volleys in the game, and how to deal with them, or why, if those big-volleys are possible, why they did not get used in certain situations in the anime.

One possibility occurs to me though... what if the missiles in the anime were NOT getting dodged... perhaps they just missed.

Players can do things like take evasive action, and I think there are strike penalties (RUE has them at least, not sure if Shadow Chronicles incorporated them) to hit fast-moving or far-distance objects... so perhaps those penalties caused the missiles to miss, and missing is one way that huge volleys may not hit their target, besides getting shot down or block-sacrificed.

Rookies (lvls 1 & 2) dodge up to 3
Regulars (lvls 4 & 5) dodge 3+ 1d4
Veterans (lvls 6+) dodge 3+ 2d4

Ace isn't a level designator. irl it's when a pilot makes his sixth kill
So ace can be gained at any level and grants an additional d4 per level beyond the first.

Before the counter measure rules came out I used a unit that deployed flare, chaff and smoke to baffle the multi sensored warhead and either allowed a dodge "redo" or doubled the number dodged (couldn't do both and couldn't launch a second one in order to double your dodge redo. The unit was disposable and only so many could be carried. Some of the larger craft had ECM, instead of Disposable CM (DCM), which had unlimited uses but were also a hit location to be targeted.

Ninjapuppy wrote:Anyone who owns the Original Robotech Role Playing Book One: Macross can find the missle rules on pg. 35- 39!

I hate to burst the technical bubble to, but it is possible that Robotechnology has created computers smart enough that they can identify objects visually as a human does! This means that even if chaffs or flares are used, the computer may see like a human eye does and the computer " see's" the chaffs, flares, and the Mecha and targets them accordingly. The targetting systems may not use heat or radar!

Actually, just found out that this is how the guided missles do work! ( see pg.38).

then it couldn't be vision obsuring particulate matter could it?

Zer0 Kay wrote:Ace isn't a level designator. irl it's when a pilot makes his sixth kill

Fifth, by the commonly accepted convention... which was established in France during the first World War, when Adolphe Pégoud became the first French pilot to shoot down five Germans and a newspaper started referring to him as "l'As" ("Ace"). Other countries of the period set their "elite" kill qualification higher, 8 was the starting point for German Überkanonen ("Top Guns"), and got raised as the war went on.

Considering how easy it was for pilots in Macross and Robotech to rack up huge kill tallies with such numerous enemies, I can see the UN/UEG forces "adjusting" the total needed for Ace status skyward considerably.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Before the counter measure rules came out I used a unit that deployed flare, chaff and smoke to baffle the multi sensored warhead and either allowed a dodge "redo" or doubled the number dodged (couldn't do both and couldn't launch a second one in order to double your dodge redo. The unit was disposable and only so many could be carried. Some of the larger craft had ECM, instead of Disposable CM (DCM), which had unlimited uses but were also a hit location to be targeted.

The way I've handled it for my own games has been to include stats for the active radar stealth suite on each Macross VF, which puts a (very) modest penalty onto missile attacks that grows as the size of the missile attack does (to reflect the odds of the active cancellation tricking missiles into losing its lock and detonating to prevent friendly fire) and giving the pilot a modest boost to their auto-dodge against missiles for each level they gain.

Zer0 Kay wrote:then it couldn't be vision obsuring particulate matter could it?

That's actually not an original idea in Robotech, it's something that's been down in the Macross source material since '82 (optical guidance, I mean). Missiles in the Macross portion of the OSM are typically fitted with 2-3 different guidance systems... typically picked from radar, infrared, and optical.

OSM spec. includes Chaff, Flare, and Smoke as standard fittings in the countermeasure dispensers on the VF-1, along with the option for FoTD.