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1) Name: D&D wins hands down even with the acronym
2) Game: PFRPG Definately. D&D and it's ilk is becoming more and more complicated and more like board games than actual RPGs
3) Mechanics: So my friend is running pathfinder. Another guy we are playing with said he realy didn't care if his D&D character died as they were so simple to draw up but cringed at the thought of drawing up a new palladium PC.
It got me thinking; huh???:?:
D&D combat is getting more and more difficult, and convoluted as time progresses. Palladium is still (relatively) the same game for 20 years. The set up is stil the same; pick race, class, roll dice. But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.
But his concern seemed to be focusing on skills. He liked that there were a set number of skills and they were all on one page. Personally, i like the variety of skills that Palladium offers (despite my expansions and alterations). They do what they say they do and that is it. no ambiguation, no unnecassary substitution. Do you have skill X? no. Then you can't do it.
4) Cost: Again PF is awesome. When I first started playing D&D I was able to pick up the entire basic set for $10. Now? To get everything I need to spend 120 bucks. Palladium can get you situated with 1 book at 20 dollars or so. Everything else is just icing, but with one book you have setting, races, classes etc
5) Mechanics: Again I think Palladium is much simpler and easier to grasp. I like that I can alter my stats through skills, and that skills actually affect my stats instead of simply giving my a foggy bonus to do x but not actually increasing my stat. I like that PP gives me my bonuses to hit while strength tells me how much damage I can do. It just makes more sense.
6) Monsters: Again this is what kept me away from PFRPG for the longest time. face it, one of the big reasons we play fantasy games is to face down terrible monsters and get treasure. Monsters and Animals has a) a small selection, b) sub par art, and c) the monsters are just lame. I want to use it. Every now and again I get it off the shelf but, it leaves me at best uninspired. I have had to take D&D MMs, come up with conversion rules and use them instead. Better art and coparable stats, damage and armor.


your thoughts

1) Name: Well Tunnels & Trolls was already taken..
2) Game: Palladium works better for our group so there ya go. Also thankfully PFRPG isn't all about releasing a new version of the rules every few years forcing the players to buy all new books and what not.. The down side... They hardly ever release anything new.
3) Mechanics: Palladium has a better magic system. (Cept for the ever changing casting times) and better combat system. Skills are better as well.. EXP is a toss up.
4) Cost: Either system your gonna need to shell out about $100 to get the full basics.
6) Monsters: PFRPG wins here again.. Only for the fact you can play as the monsters.

KillWatch wrote:1) Name: D&D wins hands down even with the acronym

Can't argue there. Totally agree

KillWatch wrote:2) Game: PFRPG Definitely. D&D and it's ilk is becoming more and more complicated and more like board games than actual RPGs

Yeah to many editions in a short amount of time. To me this was just a money making scheme and not a real response to fan concerns. I can't speak to the complication, but after I have more than a dozen 3.0 books and now I have to scrap those in favor of 3.5, no way.

KillWatch wrote:3) Mechanics: So my friend is running pathfinder. Another guy we are playing with said he realy didn't care if his D&D character died as they were so simple to draw up but cringed at the thought of drawing up a new palladium PC.
It got me thinking; huh???:?:
D&D combat is getting more and more difficult, and convoluted as time progresses. Palladium is still (relatively) the same game for 20 years. The set up is stil the same; pick race, class, roll dice. But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.
But his concern seemed to be focusing on skills. He liked that there were a set number of skills and they were all on one page. Personally, i like the variety of skills that Palladium offers (despite my expansions and alterations). They do what they say they do and that is it. no ambiguation, no unnecassary substitution. Do you have skill X? no. Then you can't do it.

Both systems have aspects that I like and I have had fun games with D&D, but my best memories are of PFRPG. Combat in (at least from 3.0) was pretty easy and straight forward, but for me lacked the drama that Palladium offered. I didn't care for the Armor Class system. I like it when I have a chance to parry and dodge. It makes me feel more engaged in the game when I have a chance to roll a die to defend myself.

On the other hand I liked D&D's metamagic feats and wizards specializing in a school of magic. Its why Wizard is my favorite if/when I play D&D.

KillWatch wrote:4) Cost: Again PF is awesome. When I first started playing D&D I was able to pick up the entire basic set for $10. Now? To get everything I need to spend 120 bucks. Palladium can get you situated with 1 book at 20 dollars or so. Everything else is just icing, but with one book you have setting, races, classes etc

Totally agree. There are other D20 books that I would like to pick up, but paying $40 to $50 for a core book (I'm looking at your Star Gate) makes me ill, especially if I'm only buying it to read it and there is not much of a chance of getting my players to play it. Hands down Palladium offers the best bang for your buck.

KillWatch wrote:5) Mechanics: Again I think Palladium is much simpler and easier to grasp. I like that I can alter my stats through skills, and that skills actually affect my stats instead of simply giving my a foggy bonus to do x but not actually increasing my stat. I like that PP gives me my bonuses to hit while strength tells me how much damage I can do. It just makes more sense.

True and I like this aspect as well. However with D&D you get a point to put into an attribute every four levels and a feat every three (if I remember by 3.0, its been a few years). I would like to see something for Palladium. Granted at later levels you can take another physical skill, but what if I want to increase one of my mental attributes?

KillWatch wrote:6) Monsters: Again this is what kept me away from PFRPG for the longest time. face it, one of the big reasons we play fantasy games is to face down terrible monsters and get treasure. Monsters and Animals has a) a small selection, b) sub par art, and c) the monsters are just lame. I want to use it. Every now and again I get it off the shelf but, it leaves me at best uninspired. I have had to take D&D MMs, come up with conversion rules and use them instead. Better art and coparable stats, damage and armor.

your thoughts

We've always used orcs, trolls, goblins, wolfen, etc as many of the foes we fought (better treasure). Monsters not so much, but in the later books like LOB and the LOD books there are some cool monsters. By far Palladium has a richer history and setting. I would hate to have to create a world from scratch for my D&D game.

Carl

As to the comments on D&D being too complicated, I found the reverse true, I was turned away from it because it was too simple and straight forward, not to mention easily breakable. PF has some of that, but the focus is far drawn away from 'just combat', and the setting and story is SO much richer that I could care less about the rules (that and my house rules are so vastly different anyway it's moot by now).

Cinos wrote:As to the comments on D&D being too complicated, I found the reverse true, I was turned away from it because it was too simple and straight forward, not to mention easily breakable. PF has some of that, but the focus is far drawn away from 'just combat', and the setting and story is SO much richer that I could care less about the rules (that and my house rules are so vastly different anyway it's moot by now).

I was thinking about the comment on complicated. For me it was just too much to remember. I need to add +x because this creature is my favored enemy, or I need to remember to designate who my dodge is or am I within point blank distance to add more to hit and damage. I had a whole page dedicated to a combat sheet which had all the bonuses spelled out and broken down. I think my character sheet, combat sheet and equipment sheets were longer than my typical Palladium character sheet. I like the feats, but sometimes the character maintenance was a nightmare!

Carl

So I was in combat nd I was going to fire a crossbow into a sea of ogres. I figure that I would at least hit SOMETHING even if I missed the one I was aiming for
According to D&D, This was not possible. I recieved a penalty for firing into a crowd and would not hit anything else if I missed
so if I am to translate this, it is harder to shoot fish in a barrell

KillWatch wrote:1) Name: D&D wins hands down even with the acronym

I'll give you this one, though Werewolf: The Forsaken (which I can't post the acronym for) gets my vote for overall best acronym.

2) Game: PFRPG Definately. D&D and it's ilk is becoming more and more complicated and more like board games than actual RPGs

Meh. I actually *prefer* to use minis. Makes combat SO much easier. I'm giving this one to D&D.

3) Mechanics: So my friend is running pathfinder. Another guy we are playing with said he realy didn't care if his D&D character died as they were so simple to draw up but cringed at the thought of drawing up a new palladium PC.
It got me thinking; huh???:?:
D&D combat is getting more and more difficult, and convoluted as time progresses. Palladium is still (relatively) the same game for 20 years. The set up is stil the same; pick race, class, roll dice. But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.
But his concern seemed to be focusing on skills. He liked that there were a set number of skills and they were all on one page. Personally, i like the variety of skills that Palladium offers (despite my expansions and alterations). They do what they say they do and that is it. no ambiguation, no unnecassary substitution. Do you have skill X? no. Then you can't do it.

I remember spending HOURS making characters in the Palladium system. Granted, that was mainly Rifts and Nightbane, but still. After skill lists, bonuses to skill percentages based on attributes that may or may not change with other skill acquisitions, starting equipment, etc, it got complicated. I still have (somewhere) the only mage I ever played in a Palladium game (yes, it's Rifts, but that's still the same type of character generation), and that character is 10 pages long. With D&D, regardless of edition, it's never taken me more than 30 minutes to make a character, and it's never been more than 3 pages. Point for D&D.

4) Cost: Again PF is awesome. When I first started playing D&D I was able to pick up the entire basic set for $10. Now? To get everything I need to spend 120 bucks. Palladium can get you situated with 1 book at 20 dollars or so. Everything else is just icing, but with one book you have setting, races, classes etc

HUH?!?! Seriously, you're shopping in the wrong places if you're being charged $20 MORE than cover price for your D&D set. Here's proof that it doesn't cost $120 for a set of PHB, DMG, and MM for D&D. Even BEFORE Amazon's discount, it's only $104, and Amazon has it 40% off with free shipping. The books are $35 each if you buy them separately. Also, if you're only a player, you can spend that 35 bucks and get the PHB and PHB2. What's a copy of PFRPG going for now? $26.95? That's not a whole lot of difference in price. PFRPG you get one book, softcover, black and white images, for $27....D&D, you get 2 books, both hardcover, with full colour interior, for $35. I think I'm going to have to sway toward D&D on this one, if for no other reason than that the books are full colour and harder to damage.

5) Mechanics: Again I think Palladium is much simpler and easier to grasp. I like that I can alter my stats through skills, and that skills actually affect my stats instead of simply giving my a foggy bonus to do x but not actually increasing my stat. I like that PP gives me my bonuses to hit while strength tells me how much damage I can do. It just makes more sense.

Why is mechanics on your list twice?

6) Monsters: Again this is what kept me away from PFRPG for the longest time. face it, one of the big reasons we play fantasy games is to face down terrible monsters and get treasure. Monsters and Animals has a) a small selection, b) sub par art, and c) the monsters are just lame. I want to use it. Every now and again I get it off the shelf but, it leaves me at best uninspired. I have had to take D&D MMs, come up with conversion rules and use them instead. Better art and coparable stats, damage and armor.

I am going to disagree with you again. I think that Palladium's monster selection is superior. Kevin doesn't just randomly look at the coffee stain on his shirt and decide "Hey...that looks nifty. I think I'll call it a Gelun!" I will grant you that the Monsters and Animals book was a little lacking, but the creatures in PFRPG were at least all based on actual mythology and suchlike.

Carl Gleba wrote:Totally agree. There are other D20 books that I would like to pick up, but paying $40 to $50 for a core book (I'm looking at your Star Gate) makes me ill, especially if I'm only buying it to read it and there is not much of a chance of getting my players to play it. Hands down Palladium offers the best bang for your buck.

Still don't know where you're paying $40 or $50 for a D&D book, but I will grant you that it hurts to pay that much for a book that you might never use. I have the Dark Heresy corebook as well as the Rogue Trader corebook (each are $60 retail....though I didn't pay retail, since I have friends who have retail licenses and get me 30% off). I've been in one game of Dark Heresy that lasted 2 months, and have yet to play Rogue Trader. Yes, the books are worth the price if you're gonna use them. Same goes for D&D. I've never purchased a D&D corebook except the Iron Heroes alternate PHB for 3.5, but that book got used hundreds of times in the 15 or so months that I was playing Iron Heroes. I have purchased sourcebooks for D&D, and have felt the bite in the pocket for them, just never had a need to buy a core D&D book as my DM always had extra copies of the books laying around.

WOTC:
PHB1: 35
PHB2: 35
DMG: 35
DMG 2: 35
MM: 35
MM2: 35
so, 35x3=105
and if you want a complete set: 210
4e Pack: 104! vs 105 great savings
It's great that you have friends who can giv eyou discounts or buy the stuff online, but some of us are just tired of buying a new edition just after buying a new edition.
And buying stuff online? Ok if I go looking for palladium books I bet I can find some pretty good deals to so your online or discounted price for D&D books becomes null. And besides, again, one book = all you needed. Yes Paladium's layouts suck ass but you only need one book. And THAT book you could have bought 10+ years ago and not needed to buy another one
So 10 years of PFRPG: 20 bucks
10 yearsof D&D: 2ed, 3ed, 3.5 ed, 4ed
3x20=60
3x30=90
3x35=105
3x35=105
=360
so what is a better investment?
Hell lets throw in the M&A: 12=32 v 360

but I buy my books at my local game shop, because we all should when we can. Even there though, 3.0 or 3.5 books have not come down in price even though they are technically "obsolete"

It has been a little over a decade since I have had anything to do with this type of gaming, and have just recently got back into it and recently acquired a fairly extensive set of game books from my younger brother and friends.

I do remember the TSR era D&D and when PFRPG first came out and to me PFRPG wins, D&D was fun and did play it for quite a few years.
I preferred to defend myself over that THACO nonsense, it helped put me in my characters place as I should be.
I do have some of the books of the WOTC era D&D including the latest edition and have tried it a few times but I'll be staying with PFRPG.
Some people have already said some of the same exact things that I don't like about the newer D&D editions so can't really add more other than honestly it just doesn't seem to be D&D anymore to me and honestly just have no real interest in playing it anymore.

KillWatch wrote:It's great that you have friends who can giv eyou discounts or buy the stuff online, but some of us are just tired of buying a new edition just after buying a new edition.

Wait... Who's forcing you to buy a new edition? Seriously, there is enough material from any of the previous editions of D&D to last you a LIFETIME of gaming, and then you'll STILL probably have bits and pieces that don't get used.

I know people who haven't moved on since AD&D2e because that's what works for them.

KillWatch wrote:1) Name: D&D wins hands down even with the acronym

Well byt he time they came up with World of Palladium WoD was taken

KillWatch wrote:2) Game: PFRPG Definately. D&D and it's ilk is becoming more and more complica
ted and more like board games than actual RPGs

wasn't D&D essentially that in it's beginning?

KillWatch wrote:3) Mechanics: So my friend is running pathfinder. Another guy we are playing with said he realy didn't care if his D&D character died as they were so simple to draw up but cringed at the thought of drawing up a new palladium PC.
It got me thinking; huh???:?:
D&D combat is getting more and more difficult, and convoluted as time progresses. Palladium is still (relatively) the same game for 20 years. The set up is stil the same; pick race, class, roll dice. But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.
But his concern seemed to be focusing on skills. He liked that there were a set number of skills and they were all on one page. Personally, i like the variety of skills that Palladium offers (despite my expansions and alterations). They do what they say they do and that is it. no ambiguation, no unnecassary substitution. Do you have skill X? no. Then you can't do it.

While I myseff do think palladium combat is a bit drawn out I have my own easy ways to fix these things. As for CharGen...I am not sure what to tell you but the first time I did a D20 character it took me longer to that than it did to make a Palladum character. It's a matter of frequency or practice. I can do a palladium char in say 15 minutes give or take. You want easy try doign a character for WEG D6 system (the old star wars system prior to WotC)

KillWatch wrote:4) Cost: Again PF is awesome. When I first started playing D&D I was able to pick up the entire basic set for $10. Now? To get everything I need to spend 120 bucks. Palladium can get you situated with 1 book at 20 dollars or so. Everything else is just icing, but with one book you have setting, races, classes etc

While having full color throughout and glossy pages is nice and all, it isn't needed, it is superfluous and costly. In order to get a set of books for what you want to do if it goes beyond the main book Pal wins hands down. A PHB is more thna a Palladium Core book and if you really want to run a game well you need DMG which you do not need to buy for Pal.

KillWatch wrote:5) Mechanics: Again I think Palladium is much simpler and easier to grasp. I like that I can alter my stats through skills, and that skills actually affect my stats instead of simply giving my a foggy bonus to do x but not actually increasing my stat. I like that PP gives me my bonuses to hit while strength tells me how much damage I can do. It just makes more sense.

Each have their own saving graces. I like taking ten or taking 20. Using a particular skill is simple as well. d20+stat bonus+skill done. Pal skills are the only thing you roll low to do well while with everythign else you have to roll high. I reversed palladium skils and have you roll high and you chance at failure drops (ie a skillthat starts at 55%+5% per level now is changed to 45%-5% per level failure rate) that way you always just roll high.

KillWatch wrote:6) Monsters: Again this is what kept me away from PFRPG for the longest time. face it, one of the big reasons we play fantasy games is to face down terrible monsters and get treasure. Monsters and Animals has a) a small selection, b) sub par art, and c) the monsters are just lame. I want to use it. Every now and again I get it off the shelf but, it leaves me at best uninspired. I have had to take D&D MMs, come up with conversion rules and use them instead. Better art and coparable stats, damage and armor.

Well i think it was said eariler by some one esle but the main opponents I think were really intedned to be the other races for the most part and not neccessarily the monsters in teh book, but thats just my opinion.


your thoughts[/quote]

See above

KillWatch wrote:WOTC:
PHB1: 35
PHB2: 35
DMG: 35
DMG 2: 35
MM: 35
MM2: 35
so, 35x3=105
and if you want a complete set: 210
4e Pack: 104! vs 105 great savings

First off, as I posted in my previous comment, you can get the PHB1 AND PHB2 for a combined $35. Second, as a player, that's all you need. So, since you're talking about players and not DM's, you're arguing yourself into a hole.

It's great that you have friends who can giv eyou discounts or buy the stuff online, but some of us are just tired of buying a new edition just after buying a new edition.

I worked in the gaming industry for 4 years, and that's how I get discounts. I KNOW that's not true for the common Joe, and I only mentioned it as saying "The only reason I bought a $60 book was because I get a discount and don't HAVE to pay that...otherwise I never would have."

And buying stuff online? Ok if I go looking for palladium books I bet I can find some pretty good deals to so your online or discounted price for D&D books becomes null.

Wrong again. I just did a search on Amazon for "Palladium Fantasy." You know how many of them you can get new for less than cover price. NONE. Not a single one. If you want used books, sure, you can get decent deals on them on eBay or half.com, but if you want a NEW Palladium book (any of the existing lines), you HAVE to pay retail. Period. Thus, my argument of discounts online is NOT nullified.

And besides, again, one book = all you needed. Yes Paladium's layouts suck ass but you only need one book.

Except, as you yourself mentioned, the Monsters and Animals book that doesn't have content in the corebook. Also, Dragons and Gods, since they aren't in the main book. That's 3 books, not 1.

And THAT book you could have bought 10+ years ago and not needed to buy another one
So 10 years of PFRPG: 20 bucks
10 yearsof D&D: 2ed, 3ed, 3.5 ed, 4ed
3x20=60
3x30=90
3x35=105
3x35=105
=360
so what is a better investment?
Hell lets throw in the M&A: 12=32 v 360

but I buy my books at my local game shop, because we all should when we can. Even there though, 3.0 or 3.5 books have not come down in price even though they are technically "obsolete"

Let's see here. 10 years ago, PFRPG was still $27, not $20. Monsters and Animals hasn't been $12 for over 20 years. It's $25. So, that's $52, not $32. You're off by $20.

10 years ago, D&D was at 3.0, so arguing "10 years of D&D 2e, 3e, 3.5, and 4e" is not viable; and you could play 3.5 with the 3.0 books (you don't believe me, give me your address and I'll send you the FREE 32 page 3e to 3.5e upgrade booklet that had EVERY revision from the PHB, DMG, and MM, as well as 20 supplements, AND reasons for the modifications). And 10 years ago, a player still only needed the PHB, which has never been more than $35, and that's just the 4e book. 3e PHB was $30, which is a $3 difference from the PFRPG main book, and is hardcover full colour, as opposed to softcover black and white.

Also, saying that PFRPG hasn't had different editions is a lie. I personally own FOUR different versions of the PFRPG core book, and that's STANDARD releases, not the special edition hardcover. There was PFRPG, which had 2 versions (one with the sexual deviance tables and one without), PFRPG Revised, and PFRPG 2nd edition. Also, virtually none of the 1st edition is compatible with second edition, and all but one of the 1st edition books got reprinted with second edition rules.

On the flip side of the coin, you can play AD&D characters in AD&D 2nd edition, D&D 3rd edition, and 3.5.

Now. All that said, I have spent over $2,000 on Palladium books, and less than $200 on D&D supplements. I have a full set of Robotech (including Robotech II), a full set of Macross II, a near full set of Nightbane (excluding the Survival Guide), a full set of TMNT, a full set of After the Bomb, both books for Beyond the Supernatural 1st edition, the BTS2 book, a full set of Chaos Earth, Splicers, Systems Failure, a full set of PFRPG 1st edition (including all 3 versions of the core, as well as Arms of Nargash Tor), a full set of Heroes Unlimited 1st edition, the first 32 Rifters (including 9 1/2), Recon and Advanced Recon, The Mechanoids, The Mechanoid Invasion trilogy, all 6 of the generic Weapons books, about 1/3 of the Rifts books (including the Manhunter book), the MOP, HU2 Gold, and a half dozen PFRPG 2nd edition books.

I know this thread is about PFRPG, but I do have to say that it's FAR less universal than D&D, since you have to buy a whole different set of the complete rules to have a different setting (horror, sci-fi, hero, etc), whereas D&D has setting books that use THE SAME rulebook as core D&D.

I guess I'm really odd, since I tend to be able to make campaigns just using the Main Book for both D&D and PFRPG.
The monster books are nice, but I really don't know why you need to buy 12 books to run a game, quite honestly.
(then again, I've had someone walk out of a demo game I did, because I had CR6 goblins (fire goblins!). YMMV. I tend to like games with political drama/war/intrigue, versus dungeon crawls, so monster books are nice, but not my common fodder.)

I've played D&D for over 20 years now, and have only recently started getting into PFRPG. I'm hopeful it will avoid one of my biggest gripes: equipment bling. D&D seems to work with the assumption you get bigger and badder magical items, till even a fighter glows at night in his magical gear. PFRPG looks like it trims that down a lot, which I like.

And to Character Creation, I'll say this: they are not equivilant from the get-go. Palladium in general tends to have a "front-heavy" approach to CharGen, but it's relatively light every level thereafter. Modern D&D (3.X & 4th) tends to have a interative build for it's CharGen; you make some quick decisions at 1st, and continue to build and choose as you go up in levels. Building a 1st-level character is definitely most intensive for PFRPG, but building a 15th-level character would be more intensive for D&D (especially with PrC's, and GEAR).

(Now, Palladium would be well-served having a CharGen program, like most RPG companies now do for their product...just saying, it would quiet a lot of the grumbling people have about CharGen, like HeroMaker did for me with HERO.)

My 2 cents.

I think the point was about that if you wanted a COMPLETE set of rules you need both the PHB and the GMG not just a PHB and for monsters you need teh MM at least so thats about 100 bucks if you wante A complete basic set of everythign where PFRPG is the basic thing in one book mostly. You can buy M&A or D&G but they aren't neccessary to play run and throw creatures out.

Rayven wrote:

KillWatch wrote:And buying stuff online? Ok if I go looking for palladium books I bet I can find some pretty good deals to so your online or discounted price for D&D books becomes null.

Wrong again. I just did a search on Amazon for "Palladium Fantasy." You know how many of them you can get new for less than cover price. NONE. Not a single one. If you want used books, sure, you can get decent deals on them on eBay or half.com, but if you want a NEW Palladium book (any of the existing lines), you HAVE to pay retail. Period. Thus, my argument of discounts online is NOT nullified.

That's isn't exactly the case - a quick search of three* of the sites I routinely go to comparison shopping all had the PFRPG core for less than cover.


*Superherogameland, MyAtomic and CCG Armory

As a point for Rayven, the original 2 year run for 3.0 books, had the PHB, DMG, & MM each priced at $20 ($60 for all three).
Only after the initial run was complete, did they up the price to $30 each ($90 for all three). About a year or two later, they switched to 3.5, but kept the same pricepoint. They only went to $35 for 4th edition.

Also, the SRD on WotC's site actually allows you to play for free, if you're so inclined (And have a computer. But yes, the SRD has been up since 3.0 debutted, with updates).

Sorry guys, but a "Palladium is cheaper than WotC!" arguement is going to fail. WotC can AFFORD not to make money off it's main books, but rather in Mini's and Supplements; Palladium cannot.

Steve President George W. Bush wrote:

Rayven wrote:

KillWatch wrote:And buying stuff online? Ok if I go looking for palladium books I bet I can find some pretty good deals to so your online or discounted price for D&D books becomes null.

Wrong again. I just did a search on Amazon for "Palladium Fantasy." You know how many of them you can get new for less than cover price. NONE. Not a single one. If you want used books, sure, you can get decent deals on them on eBay or half.com, but if you want a NEW Palladium book (any of the existing lines), you HAVE to pay retail. Period. Thus, my argument of discounts online is NOT nullified.

That's isn't exactly the case - a quick search of three* of the sites I routinely go to comparison shopping all had the PFRPG core for less than cover.


*Superherogameland, MyAtomic and CCG Armory

OK, I'll concede here, since I didn't know about those sites. Still, the fact that the "major" online retailer doesn't (can't?) offer discounts on PB books, and has significant discounts on WoD, D&D, GURPS, HERO system, and a slew of others makes it easier to lean towards those other companies (IMHO).

Novastar wrote:
Also, the SRD on WotC's site actually allows you to play for free, if you're so inclined (And have a computer. But yes, the SRD has been up since 3.0 debutted, with updates).

Sorry guys, but a "Palladium is cheaper than WotC!" arguement is going to fail. WotC can AFFORD not to make money off it's main books, but rather in Mini's and Supplements; Palladium cannot.

WOTC actually has the basics for 4th Edition up for free as well.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx

Whoot! PFRPG rocks! D&D, well... we've just grown too different, drifted apart. Sure, back when you were Ad&d 2nd edition, we had some good times and some nice long summer nights together. Now, I find that you've gotten to be too nitpicky. I feel restricted and tied down like I can't really express myself, but maybe it's just me, maybe I don't want to let go of those memories of my youth and maybe I resent the change. Either way, the result is the same and we will just have to go our separate ways. It's been a slice.

sword-dancer wrote:

KillWatch wrote:But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.

D&D 3 or 3.5 25 minutes for a first level pc, for Rifts i need the same time as for a 10thlevel Character.

Ok maybe I am not doing it right for the past 20 years but why does it seem everyone but me takes forever and a day to make a Palladium character? Am i the oly person who can bang out a character in like 15 minutesand be good to go?

jaymz wrote:

sword-dancer wrote:

KillWatch wrote:But D&D gets cross eyed when it comes to racial abilities, and feats. Their are so many different conditions, rules and caveats to be aware of with your bonuses, penalties and other affects, that character creation, let alone actual game play, almost demands you know the game backwards and forewards.

D&D 3 or 3.5 25 minutes for a first level pc, for Rifts i need the same time as for a 10thlevel Character.

Ok maybe I am not doing it right for the past 20 years but why does it seem everyone but me takes forever and a day to make a Palladium character? Am i the oly person who can bang out a character in like 15 minutesand be good to go?

It helps to know where everything is located. It doesn't take long, maybe they are writting up character backgrounds and drawing their character and equipment or somthing like that. The only thing slowing me down during character creation is my own writing, I can bang one out in about 15 minute too.

For me PFRPG beats D&D hands down but like you said it does have a better acronym. But it seems to me that people who play D&D seem to be less role players and more roll players if you know what i mean. its all about dice and they could care less if there is an epic storyline or not its just bash in the door take on whatever is on the other side. As for people who play palladium systems seem to get more into the storyline and i think it is because it does take longer to make a charater (about an hour) and that is generally because of all the choices you have and then skills. i dont care though because i love palladium. i just recently got some D&D role players to play rifts and now i am running a PFRPG and they absolutely love it. at first they thought i was weird that you had to actually try and parry and dodge and it just wasnt assumed thats what you were doing. i remember the first combat we got into it was kinda funny to me because they were fighting some orcs and i said "allright, the orc comes at you with his axe drawn, with both hands he swings at you like you are a block of wood, what are you going to do?" he looked at me and said "what do you mean?" i said "are you going to try and parry his axe or jump out of the way?" and his reply was "i can do that?!" i just laughed and explained that combat is more realistic in PFRPG. anyway all in all certain people wont like palladium's system as much as D&D. but for me Palladium is definitely for me.

I find D and D to be more friendly to DMs with little time in their lives for prep. The monster manuals give basic stats that you can use to throw whatever creature into the mix without having to worry about rolling up its stats. Also D and D has a good amount of pregenerated modules that a group can play through. So even the busiest of people can find adventure in D and D.

On the other hand the Palladium setting is rich and if one has the time to devote to it I think that much richer games can be played with it.

My biggest challenge personally has been to get my group to play something other than D and D or Pathfinder. They are all comfortable with 'Pathfinder/3.5" and they don't want to play anything else.

Sometimes I miss my college days. The group I was in then would rotate games. One month we'd play Rifts, the next D and D and the next Vampire.

By the way has anyone else noticed that people are now referring to Pathfinder as the PFRPG?

enyggma514 wrote:I find D and D to be more friendly to DMs with little time in their lives for prep. The monster manuals give basic stats that you can use to throw whatever creature into the mix without having to worry about rolling up its stats. Also D and D has a good amount of pregenerated modules that a group can play through. So even the busiest of people can find adventure in D and D.

I think this where a "megaversal threats" book would be extremely handy. A book full of various generic NPC evil beings, psychics, men at arms etc of varying levels. Combine that with all the Hook Line and Sinker plots and you cna easily flesh out an adventure without little fuss or muss. I personally am not a fan of modules as they rarely are able to account fo rhte actions of the players and thier characters as they are playig thru said module.

well Heroes has the GM's guide which helps out with random adventures and pregen scenarios.
As for stats, yeah like I said D&D does MMs right. But if you wanted to, with a tiny bit of effort you could avg out the stats and present them that way, no rolling

jaymz wrote:Ok maybe I am not doing it right for the past 20 years but why does it seem everyone but me takes forever and a day to make a Palladium character? Am i the oly person who can bang out a character in like 15 minutesand be good to go?

Possibly. None of the people I have gamed with in nearly 20 has ever been able to make a PC in under 40 minutes, unless they are playing a City Rat or a Vagabond. I even know where everything is in my RMB, and it still takes me 45 minutes to make a standard character. My 'borg, on the other hand, took me 3 hours, due to augments and bionics and weapons and suchlike.

jaymz wrote:Ok maybe I am not doing it right for the past 20 years but why does it seem everyone but me takes forever and a day to make a Palladium character? Am i the oly person who can bang out a character in like 15 minutesand be good to go?

The only Palladium PCs I can make in 20 minutes are from Robotech.

GUess I am not the norm then because I can typically have a character done in about 15 miutes for Any of hte Palladim Games *shrugs*

lostsoul336 wrote:But it seems to me that people who play D&D seem to be less role players and more roll players if you know what i mean. its all about dice and they could care less if there is an epic storyline or not its just bash in the door take on whatever is on the other side. As for people who play palladium systems seem to get more into the storyline and i think it is because it does take longer to make a charater (about an hour) and that is generally because of all the choices you have and then skills.

The problem here is that Dungeons and Dragons is named after wandering through a dungeon to find a dragon and get its stuff after killing it. That's as far as many take it and sadly 4th Ed seems to cater to that trend. (full disclosure; 4th is my ONLY gaming outlet nowdays, so I hold my nose and pretend I'm playing Mechwarrior by a different set of rules and it works for me. I don't consider 4th to actually BE D&D, I just call it Dungeon.)
That said, I've played in far more RP intensive D&D campaigns in 2nd and 3rd editions than I have ever played hack/slash dungeon crawls, going back over 15 years now. I've played a city based social campaign that had two priests building/rebuilding their religions, a thief (bard actually) building a new thieves guild, and a craftsman organizing a trade guild. We left the city exactly twice during the campaign for character related reasons (visiting the home church for example) and that's where our combat would happen. In town we had reps and other people's attention to worry about, we couldn't just go around lobbing fireballs and swinging swords (even though my character was decidedly awesome at doing the former).
I've played a completely different campaign that focused around a mage and cleric who were sedentary library types and who viewed dungeons or wilderness with great trepidation. We did end up there on occasion, but the campaign fell apart when we tried to leave our libraries.
The Palladium campaigns I played with that group inevitably featured just as much/little combat as the D&D campaigns, and the Palladium games I've played since that group fell apart have all been far more focused on fighting.
So what the heck is my point anyway, right? It's just that you've obviously got to find a different group to play D&D with because it isn't the system that limits the style of play, it is the players/DM that does that. If your converted group is having fun playing your style of PFRPG then they would also have fun playing your style of D&D (except 4th!) if you ran the same campaign. You might have to work harder at the D&D campaign because they are comfortable playing a certain style in that system and you'll have to crack them out of that style, but it works the same in either system (except 4th, which is Mechwarrior with fantasy stuff.)

jaymz wrote:GUess I am not the norm then because I can typically have a character done in about 15 miutes for Any of hte Palladim Games *shrugs*

How? Really, I would like to know. The only way I can think of to do that is to not write anything down. Hell, I have pre-written character sheets for Rifts, and even just filling those out takes me half an hour.

Rayven wrote:

jaymz wrote:GUess I am not the norm then because I can typically have a character done in about 15 miutes for Any of hte Palladim Games *shrugs*

How? Really, I would like to know. The only way I can think of to do that is to not write anything down. Hell, I have pre-written character sheets for Rifts, and even just filling those out takes me half an hour.

I usually already have an idea of what I want and just go to it. usually about 15 minutes and I am writing it all down as I go.

Then agin I never use the actual character sheet I just use lined paper.......lots of scratches all over it by the time I am done.

You know the biggest difference to me between D and D and PFRPG go back to the intentions of the creators of the games. D and D was originally a medieval combat game called chain mail. Through it Gary kind of stumbled upon the idea of a role playing game by accident. So to this day D and D is at its core a miniatures combat game ,especially with 4e. When Kevin designed PF it seem to me that his intention was to make a good "role-playing game" not a good "roll- playing" game. He wanted people to get into their characters and he created an experience system that rewards more for rping than for slaughter.

While I know that some people have hack heavy PF campaigns and RP heavy D and D I think that the mechanics of PF are better suited for rping and problem solving. Of course Kevin encourages people to play whatever kind of game makes them the happiest. I personally enjoy a balance of combat and RP. Too much of either can get boring. (At least to me)

With that said if you're a GM that doesn't have a lot of time for prep than D and D in any of its incarnations is infinitely easier to whip up and play then PF. If you have time for a lot of prep and depth than PF has a much richer setting.

jaymz wrote:

Rayven wrote:

jaymz wrote:GUess I am not the norm then because I can typically have a character done in about 15 miutes for Any of hte Palladim Games *shrugs*

How? Really, I would like to know. The only way I can think of to do that is to not write anything down. Hell, I have pre-written character sheets for Rifts, and even just filling those out takes me half an hour.

I usually already have an idea of what I want and just go to it. usually about 15 minutes and I am writing it all down as I go.

Then agin I never use the actual character sheet I just use lined paper.......lots of scratches all over it by the time I am done.

I created my character sheets in Microsoft Word, so they are just glorified lined paper, with the attribute section, combat bonuses section, and stuff like that preformatted so I only have to write the numbers (I only write "2" instead of "Attacks/melee: 2" and suchlike). It still takes me at least 30, and often more than 40 mintues to roll up and write up a character.

Rayven wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Rayven wrote:

jaymz wrote:GUess I am not the norm then because I can typically have a character done in about 15 miutes for Any of hte Palladim Games *shrugs*

How? Really, I would like to know. The only way I can think of to do that is to not write anything down. Hell, I have pre-written character sheets for Rifts, and even just filling those out takes me half an hour.

I usually already have an idea of what I want and just go to it. usually about 15 minutes and I am writing it all down as I go.

Then agin I never use the actual character sheet I just use lined paper.......lots of scratches all over it by the time I am done.

I created my character sheets in Microsoft Word, so they are just glorified lined paper, with the attribute section, combat bonuses section, and stuff like that preformatted so I only have to write the numbers (I only write "2" instead of "Attacks/melee: 2" and suchlike). It still takes me at least 30, and often more than 40 mintues to roll up and write up a character.

Not sure what to tell you then