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How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it? We started up a Rifts campaign again as sort of a test run and one of the.. I don't want to say complaints... but definitely an issue that my players had is MDC and how if you're a regular guy you're useless.

It's not so much getting vaped by a MDC blast as much as it is just not even being able to cause 1 point of damage to an MDC structure.

I guess my players see themselves as brawlers so when they get into a fight, they like to punch and kick, but it sucks for them because if they are fighting dinosaurs or Dead Boys they can't do anything.

Sure, the easy answer is "Be a Juicer" but that's not really fixing what they see as the problem. So I was wondering if anyone had alternatives.

Like maybe MDC has SDC equivalency but has a really high AR or something like Hardness from D20, or maybe instead of 100 points an MDC equals 10 points.. I dunno.

I don't want to break the system, but I wouldn't mind seeing what other people use as their gaming norm.

I use x10 instead of x100. There are some fundamental problems with energy expulsion and basic encounters that occur with x100. I swiftly figured this out by looking at the SDC of ordinary objects, and realized that if everything was obeyed to the letter, the entire planet would be a colossal desert. So I scaled back how much damage MDC did comparatively and now everything works fine.

I use a "higher" conversion than everyone else; 30 points of SDC is the equivalent of one MD. I do this because I've also singled out bullet damage. A 7.62 rifle round does 5d6 SD, and most player-held heavy machineguns fire this round. At best this round will inflict 1 point of MD - and that is only if maximum damage is rolled.

Going off of this, a .50 sniper rifle, like the barret is more likely to actually crack MD, and allows for things such as grackle-tooth characters (ones likely to wield say a GAW Browning .50 MG) feel good about a "low-damage" weapon. I've geared the .50 at doing 1d6x10 (I believe that's standard); on average that is 1 MD inflicted. So a burst of 20 rounds would inflict about 20 MD.

You may be thinking that this is pretty high, but I've geared all weapons to do single-round damage when bursting; a SAMAS railgun for instance does 4d4x10 MD - this far-outstrips the .50 MG.

This makes for a more deadly game ofcourse, but at the same time the players can field more typical weapons without being totally out-classed.


A game shouldn't trivialize MDC though; at a ratio of 10:1, you'll have strong but normal people able to crack MD with punches and kicks. MDC stuff is supposed to be magnitudes stronger than steel, but at this low ratio you're trivializing its strength.


Also, a question for the OP;
Why would your players think that punching and kicking people in metal armour should result in success? Maybe if you answer this question, you'll better come to your own conclusion.

I actually don't consider it to be trivializing. It creates a MODICUM of greater survivability. Trust me on this. I kill a lot of people. The average adventure does not pass without a PC death of some sort. Every so often, there's one where everyone survives, but that's usually luck or skill. If villains in my game see an opening, they take it and shoot.

Balabanto wrote:I actually don't consider it to be trivializing. It creates a MODICUM of greater survivability. Trust me on this. I kill a lot of people. The average adventure does not pass without a PC death of some sort. Every so often, there's one where everyone survives, but that's usually luck or skill. If villains in my game see an opening, they take it and shoot.

I'd totally mock your game.

I'd take the money earned from either an adventure or even a vehicle I started with, and buy a tank. Wearing protective gloves, I'd punch it to complete destruction. Even if it took a week in-game it's possible, with just a 19 normal strength.

My point though isn't to mock your game; it's to show that a 10:1 ratio is trivial. There are many, many other examples that would go to prove my point.
Once I was reading in a book about automatic firearms, and found a chaingun that had a firing rate of 12,000 rounds a minute; this works out to 3,000 bullets fired per standard Rifts melee round. On a second-by-second basis that's 200 bullets per second; adjudicating a single action to no more than one second, we'll say that counts as one burst. Since GAW makes remakes of old guns, having a replica made using 9mm, this provides me with a gun that does an average of 200 MD per burst (on average; 3d6x200 in SDC). Even using a reduced ratio equal to that of a SAMAS railgun (where only one in four rounds hit), that's still a guaranteed 50 MD per burst using only 9mm bullets (3d6x50 in SDC). There are many other better methods to demonstrate this, but I wanted to use a very weak bullet-type to show you how and why it trivializes MD.

If SDC weaponry are capable of doing this - and are otherwise dirt-cheap as compared to MD weapons, then it trivializes MDC. I mean really; there's no point in spending 20,000 creds on a rifle that only does 2d6 MD, when an AK-47 does basically 1d6 MD on a burst, and costs only a few hundred creds (if that - it's the most common weapon on the planet). You could arm more than 20 men with these guns and out-gun any MD weapon-wielding rifleman there is.

I think it goes something like this...
"Who are all these people, and why are they beating on my tank?"

Kalidor wrote:How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it?

I use the MDC system as is.

I've no problem with it so far in actual gaming and find that only on threads do people wish to become as accurate as possible ..

Khanibal wrote:I think it goes something like this...
"Who are all these people, and why are they beating on my tank?"

Yes, exactly

I have tried 1MDC=10SDC and it works fine, I added an AR to most armours, however for most new EBAs the AR was over 20. The armour lost 1 AR for every 10 MDC of damage. Some like dog boy half armour had an AR of 16 and a lot of people like tribal psi-stalkers, poor people in the burbs etc. got around in homemade patchwork armour that may have an AR as low as 12.

For my current campaign I'm going back to normal, but I'll keep the AR for patchwork and half armours as it doesn't really apply to the PCs but does make MD combat seem deadly.

Lenwen wrote:

Kalidor wrote:How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it?

I use the MDC system as is.

I've no problem with it so far in actual gaming and find that only on threads do people wish to become as accurate as possible ..

I'm not sure what your saying here but from what I gather you think that people only want to be realistic on forums and not in game. I just want to point out that the reason I changed was for a gamestyle choice, not necessarily a realistic change. For example in one game I had a crazy (the player was new to the game) who snuck up on a guard on a turret gun and wanted to stealth kill him or at least take him out quietly. Of course he couldn't because he was wearing MD armour.

Now I'm not saying that he should be able to, but if you like that kind of gameplay then haviing options where you can try to do these things (in this example because he could use his vibro knife in the gap in the AR) is just a gameplay choice.

Another example is the punching and brawling example above, there doesn't have to be a logical reason why players should be able to do that, the fact that they like that style of play is enough.

Kalidor wrote:How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it? We started up a Rifts campaign again as sort of a test run and one of the.. I don't want to say complaints... but definitely an issue that my players had is MDC and how if you're a regular guy you're useless.

It's not so much getting vaped by a MDC blast as much as it is just not even being able to cause 1 point of damage to an MDC structure.

I guess my players see themselves as brawlers so when they get into a fight, they like to punch and kick, but it sucks for them because if they are fighting dinosaurs or Dead Boys they can't do anything.

Sure, the easy answer is "Be a Juicer" but that's not really fixing what they see as the problem. So I was wondering if anyone had alternatives.

Like maybe MDC has SDC equivalency but has a really high AR or something like Hardness from D20, or maybe instead of 100 points an MDC equals 10 points.. I dunno.

I don't want to break the system, but I wouldn't mind seeing what other people use as their gaming norm.

I use the MDC system as it stands, most of my players and I play "regular joe's" as well and don't have too much of a problem, 'course we just get nastier the more that's thrown at us. We really don't use the Juicer, Cyberknight, or any of the Magic OCC's, prefering to be power armor soldiers instead, but we are all just normal humans without all the buffs that many other races get.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Balabanto wrote:I actually don't consider it to be trivializing. It creates a MODICUM of greater survivability. Trust me on this. I kill a lot of people. The average adventure does not pass without a PC death of some sort. Every so often, there's one where everyone survives, but that's usually luck or skill. If villains in my game see an opening, they take it and shoot.

I'd totally mock your game.

I'd take the money earned from either an adventure or even a vehicle I started with, and buy a tank. Wearing protective gloves, I'd punch it to complete destruction. Even if it took a week in-game it's possible, with just a 19 normal strength.

My point though isn't to mock your game; it's to show that a 10:1 ratio is trivial. There are many, many other examples that would go to prove my point.
Once I was reading in a book about automatic firearms, and found a chaingun that had a firing rate of 12,000 rounds a minute; this works out to 3,000 bullets fired per standard Rifts melee round. On a second-by-second basis that's 200 bullets per second; adjudicating a single action to no more than one second, we'll say that counts as one burst. Since GAW makes remakes of old guns, having a replica made using 9mm, this provides me with a gun that does an average of 200 MD per burst (on average; 3d6x200 in SDC). Even using a reduced ratio equal to that of a SAMAS railgun (where only one in four rounds hit), that's still a guaranteed 50 MD per burst using only 9mm bullets (3d6x50 in SDC). There are many other better methods to demonstrate this, but I wanted to use a very weak bullet-type to show you how and why it trivializes MD.

If SDC weaponry are capable of doing this - and are otherwise dirt-cheap as compared to MD weapons, then it trivializes MDC. I mean really; there's no point in spending 20,000 creds on a rifle that only does 2d6 MD, when an AK-47 does basically 1d6 MD on a burst, and costs only a few hundred creds (if that - it's the most common weapon on the planet). You could arm more than 20 men with these guns and out-gun any MD weapon-wielding rifleman there is.

1) If anything counted as shooting wild, this does.

2) You're applying realism to a game mechanic that states how many actions people get. After going full auto (-10) and Shooting Wild (-6), with a base TN of 8 and no proficency bonuses (Because you don't get them when you go full auto), those men would have a chance of less than zero to hit that tank. And by the time they actually connected and rolled enough natural 20s to hit the tank, most of them would probably be dead from missile bursts, gunfire, and whatever was backing the tank up. Not to mention the tank would also have to be stationary, and they'll probably need another -2 to -3 to hit it. That's -19 on a straight d20 against an 8. It's not possible to connect except by using the 1 in 20 rule. So the tank really does kind of laugh at them instead. Sometimes rolling to hit does represent bouncing off your opponent's armor, and in this case probably does.

3) The GM is allowed to apply common sense rules. If you spend a week punching a tank just to mock the GM, you'd be gone. Behavior like that is hardly civilized.

4) Mega-Damage equipment still requires DEALING megadamage, unless there's an excessive circumstance. (House Rule: Nothing is immune to gravity. Falling SDC creatures take SDC damage. Falling MDC creatures take MDC damage. I refuse to run a game where the best weapon a Demon has is to fly over the enemy armor and drop his allies on them from above as bombardment. That's just as stupid, if not more stupid than your tank example. And in your game, if you want to get into the mocking part, that's what I'd do. Play a shifter, and airdrop MDC creatures on my enemies. The Coalition would never build SAMASes. They'd just wholesale airdrop falling skelebots on their enemies, crush them using the falling impact rules, and stand up. Let the slaughter begin. Except for a limited soldier corps, all the Coalition people would be 50 pounds overweight, sitting at home, remote piloting skelebots and hitting the "Skelebot Vault Release" Button. The bots take no damage and let out a robotic "Bwah-ha-ha-ha," rolling around in blood and gore. Everyone has their own way of dealing with the equation. I don't allow a bog standard SAMAS to do 4d4x10 MD either.)

So don't mock me, and I won't mock you.

I myself use a 10-1 ratio and it doesn;t rivialize anything in the way of MD. MD is still typically more powerful and tougher by far.

Dog how do you get 3d6x200 for a 200 round burst? Is that using your house rule of doing full damage? A burst of that many rounds is dictated in teh rule as a full melee burst and does x10-x20 depending on which book you are reading specifically. So using a real world example to illistrate the problem is hardly appropriate where the rule dictates how many round can be fired in a burst.

jaymz wrote:I myself use a 10-1 ratio and it doesn;t rivialize anything in the way of MD. MD is still typically more powerful and tougher by far.

Dog how do you get 3d6x200 for a 200 round burst? Is that using your house rule of doing full damage? A burst of that many rounds is dictated in teh rule as a full melee burst and does x10-x20 depending on which book you are reading specifically. So using a real world example to illistrate the problem is hardly appropriate where the rule dictates how many round can be fired in a burst.

Not to mention the burst is resolved at the end of the melee round. The action does not complete until the end of those 15 seconds. Rules as written. So while this is going on, your tank pilot is getting eight actions, each of which he uses to fire a volley of four plasma missiles. SDC weapons being used on full auto cannot be used to retarget the missiles. So those guys probably die, having no actions to roll with it. By the time the round is over, MAYBE one guy will get a burst off. And that's if the tank is alone.

At 10-1 ratio a .50 cal based on the MWC version firing 10 rounds (using HU2 burst rules) does x3 damage on a short burst so the damage is 1d6x10+10 sdc x 3 - 3d6x10+30 sdc or 3d6+3 mdc. Doesn;t seem to trivialize mdc to me since a c-40r railgun does double the damage for a burst that takes the same amount of time to fire off at 1d4x10 mdc. Based on the rules an M-16 out of the MWC will do 1d6x10 sdc on a 3 round burst (again using the HU2 burst rules as they are the most up to date and I THINK they are teh dame in RUE) or 1d6 mdc, equal tot eh lowest powered mdc pistols. Again ahrdly trivializing mdc.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Balabanto wrote:I actually don't consider it to be trivializing. It creates a MODICUM of greater survivability. Trust me on this. I kill a lot of people. The average adventure does not pass without a PC death of some sort. Every so often, there's one where everyone survives, but that's usually luck or skill. If villains in my game see an opening, they take it and shoot.

I'd totally mock your game.

I'd take the money earned from either an adventure or even a vehicle I started with, and buy a tank. Wearing protective gloves, I'd punch it to complete destruction. Even if it took a week in-game it's possible, with just a 19 normal strength.

My point though isn't to mock your game; it's to show that a 10:1 ratio is trivial. There are many, many other examples that would go to prove my point.
Once I was reading in a book about automatic firearms, and found a chaingun that had a firing rate of 12,000 rounds a minute; this works out to 3,000 bullets fired per standard Rifts melee round. On a second-by-second basis that's 200 bullets per second; adjudicating a single action to no more than one second, we'll say that counts as one burst. Since GAW makes remakes of old guns, having a replica made using 9mm, this provides me with a gun that does an average of 200 MD per burst (on average; 3d6x200 in SDC). Even using a reduced ratio equal to that of a SAMAS railgun (where only one in four rounds hit), that's still a guaranteed 50 MD per burst using only 9mm bullets (3d6x50 in SDC). There are many other better methods to demonstrate this, but I wanted to use a very weak bullet-type to show you how and why it trivializes MD.

If SDC weaponry are capable of doing this - and are otherwise dirt-cheap as compared to MD weapons, then it trivializes MDC. I mean really; there's no point in spending 20,000 creds on a rifle that only does 2d6 MD, when an AK-47 does basically 1d6 MD on a burst, and costs only a few hundred creds (if that - it's the most common weapon on the planet). You could arm more than 20 men with these guns and out-gun any MD weapon-wielding rifleman there is.

Um you do know the rules speficaly say SDC damage does NOT upgrade to MD unless it is a missile. Now if you want houserule it does that is fine but you shouldn't assume everyone does.

My understanding is the damage woudl have to inflict a minimum of 100 by the rukes in order to be able to try and damage mdc That being said there next to NO weapon barring tank weapons that can deal out that kind of damage (they specficially say the origina Bradly and M-48 tanks guns in mercenaries only did a few d6's of damage due ot being sdc, and those aren;t missiles ) but if you change the ratio as some of us do then the amount of sdc needed to damage mdc is changed as well. See my preious post abou that...

I use a 1:100,000,000 ratio . . . you if I did it honestly wouldn't change that game that much.

No, I use it as writen. I accept the fact that shooting a modern sdc firearm at a suit of body armor is the equivelent of walking up to an Abrams with a baseball bat. I accept [reluctantly at times, I admit] that Armor is now more effective than ever.

I know you can come up with dozens of 'logical' examples as to why MDC is too much. . . just be more accepting.

I think it falls to the players to decide in the end what is right or wrong or how to do it. I used to play it as is till Iplayed other games and systems and to beh onest I have less of an issue with in Robotech than in Rifts but that isjust me Gane on!

Lenwen wrote:

Kalidor wrote:How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it?

I use the MDC system as is.

I've no problem with it so far in actual gaming and find that only on threads do people wish to become as accurate as possible ..

I agree system works fine, but some conversions for creatures could use some fine tuning. I actually see the real world as having some M.D.C. dangers such as flamethrowers, modern artillery and theres not way a high speed impact from a jet is not an M.D.C. attack. Things like bank vaults, tanks, and tank hulls work better as m.d.c. structures then S.D.C. what are the chances of cutting threw tank armor with a sword? In the big picture people are frail and easily killed but the M.D.C. system needs more ways for an S.D.C. being to survive like using a hit location chart, sure searing off an arm is life threating yet people survive it all the time and even some without medical treatment for a few days.

grandmaster z0b wrote:I'm not sure what your saying here but from what I gather you think that people only want to be realistic on forums and not in game.

I am saying that I have never been in a grp that has ever wanted this specific of info.

In 25 years plus of RPG'ing I've personally never encountered a grp or setting that wanted to be this specific, on any level.

I know that they are out there, but I've never seen any ..

It's not so much armor and tech that my players are put off by, but rather the idea of MDC creatures and D-Bees.

They don't like the idea that at any given time, something they fight might be like he truck stop scene in Superman II after Clark got his powers back.

Recently, the players were attacked by a pack of Scampers from Dino Swamp and even those are minor MD creatures. One of the players is an ordinary human but he has a 6 IQ. As a result, he pumped some extra into his already high PS and it wound up being 32 after all was said and done. They wanted to capture the scampers unharmed but they are MD creatures. The player wanted to choke one. Now, as written that would be impossible, but given that he's strong and has the wrestling skill with crush/squeeze, I went ahead and let him do 'direct damage' with his STR to hit points to the MD creature with his choke because I thought it was dumb that MDC would be immune to any sort of attack.

So my issue seems to be living MDC more so than armor MDC.

Lenwen wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I'm not sure what your saying here but from what I gather you think that people only want to be realistic on forums and not in game.

I am saying that I have never been in a grp that has ever wanted this specific of info.

In 25 years plus of RPG'ing I've personally never encountered a grp or setting that wanted to be this specific, on any level.

I know that they are out there, but I've never seen any ..

Yep they are, just try to check out Pheonix Command. 60+ hit locations on teh human body. Also Rolemaster/Spacemanster with a book for only rolling critical hits etc. Nasty stuff and I do NOT lay them for that reason.

Kalidor wrote:How do you guys feel about MDC? How do you use it? We started up a Rifts campaign again as sort of a test run and one of the.. I don't want to say complaints... but definitely an issue that my players had is MDC and how if you're a regular guy you're useless.

It's not so much getting vaped by a MDC blast as much as it is just not even being able to cause 1 point of damage to an MDC structure.

I guess my players see themselves as brawlers so when they get into a fight, they like to punch and kick, but it sucks for them because if they are fighting dinosaurs or Dead Boys they can't do anything.

Sure, the easy answer is "Be a Juicer" but that's not really fixing what they see as the problem. So I was wondering if anyone had alternatives.

Like maybe MDC has SDC equivalency but has a really high AR or something like Hardness from D20, or maybe instead of 100 points an MDC equals 10 points.. I dunno.

I don't want to break the system, but I wouldn't mind seeing what other people use as their gaming norm.

Why not give them MD melee weapons then?

Balabanto wrote:1) If anything counted as shooting wild, this does.

If you read the shooting wild entry, nothing I've said falls under it.

Balabanto wrote:2) You're applying realism to a game mechanic that states how many actions people get.

Only to put the RoF into context. I mean, I could have gone full-realism, and for people with only 3 actions per round a single burst would be 1000 rounds per action, while for people who have 5 actions, a single burst would only be 600 rounds.
But instead I went with something logical, something that is quantifiable, and something that fits within the games' confines. Think about it; the SAMAS railgun fires 40 rounds per action, you don't honestly believe that the gun slows or speeds-up its based on how many attacks per melee a shooter has do you?

That is, assuming my above calculation (where one action = one second), a burst from the C40-R can fire 40 rounds per second, or 600 rounds per mlee round, or 2400 rounds per minute. There are faster and slower-firing guns, but this is a calculation that doesn't break verisimilitude.

It keeps it in context of a discernable number that takes into account weapons that rely on a high RoF instead of arbitarily lumping in say an AK-47 with a G3 (faster-firing), an M14 (even faster), but yet these do less damage despite firing a comparable and interchangeable round with a Browning .30 calibre machinegun (which has an RoF that only at best rivals the AK-47).

My whole point of breaking down the second-by-second RoF is to prevent such silliness as the M14 taking 2 attacks to shoot 6 rounds despite having an RoF in the 700 range, while the Browning .30 MG can apparently shoot 12 rounds in one action, or fire 4 times faster than the M14 even though its RoF generally only reaches 600 a max.

Balabanto wrote:After going full auto (-10) and Shooting Wild (-6), with a base TN of 8 and no proficency bonuses (Because you don't get them when you go full auto)

Why are you now arguing the rules (and poorly)? There is no penalty like that for going full-auto; it simply takes more attacks the longer you hold down the trigger. Bursting does not cause you to lose your proficiency, nor does it give you a -10; it only cuts your current bonus to strike in-half. And shooting wild does not apply to firing bursts no matter how much wishful thinking you do.
Can we move on now - to the actual matter at-hand?

Balabanto wrote:those men would have a chance of less than zero to hit that tank. And by the time they actually connected and rolled enough natural 20s to hit the tank, most of them would probably be dead from missile bursts, gunfire, and whatever was backing the tank up. Not to mention the tank would also have to be stationary, and they'll probably need another -2 to -3 to hit it. That's -19 on a straight d20 against an 8. It's not possible to connect except by using the 1 in 20 rule. So the tank really does kind of laugh at them instead. Sometimes rolling to hit does represent bouncing off your opponent's armor, and in this case probably does.

I get it; you're angry because I called your method of play a trivialization of the MDC system. But really - you're resorting to fake rules to attempt to "show me up" here, or whatever you want to call it.

Balabanto wrote:3) The GM is allowed to apply common sense rules. If you spend a week punching a tank just to mock the GM, you'd be gone. Behavior like that is hardly civilized.

If the GM is allowed, then why isn't he? Clearly normal people capable of punching a material far stronger than steel, and breaking it with there bare hands lacks any sense at all - common or otherwise. They aren't on drugs, have super-powers, weilding super-tech weapons, or casting magic; they are little more than their cave-dwelling ancestors using their fists as clubs. Which according to your game affords them the capability of destroying a tank.

That is the point I've been making. A 10:1 ratio doesn't make much sense in the context of the game. I doubt you've modified the prices of MD weapons to be cheaper to reflect the weakening of the device, or raised the cost of SDC weapons given their increased effectiveness - so why the hard stance that you didn't trivialize MDC when I've shown you in many ways that you did?

Balabanto wrote:4) Mega-Damage equipment still requires DEALING megadamage, unless there's an excessive circumstance. (House Rule: Nothing is immune to gravity. Falling SDC creatures take SDC damage. Falling MDC creatures take MDC damage. I refuse to run a game where the best weapon a Demon has is to fly over the enemy armor and drop his allies on them from above as bombardment. That's just as stupid, if not more stupid than your tank example. And in your game, if you want to get into the mocking part, that's what I'd do. Play a shifter, and airdrop MDC creatures on my enemies. The Coalition would never build SAMASes. They'd just wholesale airdrop falling skelebots on their enemies, crush them using the falling impact rules, and stand up. Let the slaughter begin. Except for a limited soldier corps, all the Coalition people would be 50 pounds overweight, sitting at home, remote piloting skelebots and hitting the "Skelebot Vault Release" Button. The bots take no damage and let out a robotic "Bwah-ha-ha-ha," rolling around in blood and gore. Everyone has their own way of dealing with the equation. I don't allow a bog standard SAMAS to do 4d4x10 MD either.)

It seems that you've modified your game due to the fact that you don't apparently know the rules. MDC things do already take MD when they fall. SDC things do already take SD when they fall. This blurb can be found in R:UE on page 365 under the crash rules. Infact, in a crash-type scenario SDC things take mega-damage from falls as well.

Balabanto wrote:So don't mock me, and I won't mock you.

That's the thing though, I don't wish to mock you - I only want to show you the flaws of your ways so that you may correct them.

And as for you mocking me, well if it's anything like the above I'll be performing a facepalm while you're thinking you've made a point.

Balabanto wrote:[3) The GM is allowed to apply common sense rules. If you spend a week punching a tank just to mock the GM, you'd be gone. Behavior like that is hardly civilized.

Dude, if you're using a 10:1 rule, then anyone with a NORMAL P.S. of 35 does 1D6 +20 pts. of damage to your tank. That's two points of md. If you throw people out of your game for following your rules/logic, they're better off.

Well, in an SDC only world this would be the case anyway.

35 PS is 'normal' but it's not realistic. No one is that strong except comic book characters. And a comic book character *could* punch a tank.

Sorry, when I run a brawler character, I usually pick a race that can handle it. I can easily make a character with 50+ supernatural P.S., I was just throwing a number out.

johnkretzer wrote:Um you do know the rules speficaly say SDC damage does NOT upgrade to MD unless it is a missile. Now if you want houserule it does that is fine but you shouldn't assume everyone does.

Read Balabantos' post.

jaymz wrote:I myself use a 10-1 ratio and it doesn;t rivialize anything in the way of MD. MD is still typically more powerful and tougher by far.

Dog how do you get 3d6x200 for a 200 round burst? Is that using your house rule of doing full damage? A burst of that many rounds is dictated in teh rule as a full melee burst and does x10-x20 depending on which book you are reading specifically. So using a real world example to illistrate the problem is hardly appropriate where the rule dictates how many round can be fired in a burst.

If you read further into my post, I reduce it to the same ratio as a SAMAS railgun; out of 200 rounds only 1/4 have a chance of hitting doing 3d6x50.

jaymz wrote:At 10-1 ratio a .50 cal based on the MWC version firing 10 rounds (using HU2 burst rules) does x3 damage on a short burst so the damage is 1d6x10+10 sdc x 3 - 3d6x10+30 sdc or 3d6+3 mdc. Doesn;t seem to trivialize mdc to me since a c-40r railgun does double the damage for a burst that takes the same amount of time to fire off at 1d4x10 mdc. Based on the rules an M-16 out of the MWC will do 1d6x10 sdc on a 3 round burst (again using the HU2 burst rules as they are the most up to date and I THINK they are teh dame in RUE) or 1d6 mdc, equal tot eh lowest powered mdc pistols. Again ahrdly trivializing mdc.

I can afford atleast 10 GAW remakes of those MGs though for every SAMAS railgun there is, and they don't weigh 92Lbs, but a comparatively "light" 84Lbs.

Which is part of my point; if SDC weapons are far cheaper but still effective there comes a point where cost meets efficiency. The SDC gun is atleast 10 times cheaper, while the MDC gun isn't even 5 times as effective. It's like paying 40 million dollars for a pen that writes in space, when a pencil works just as good and didn't cost you 40 million.

Dog_O_War wrote:

johnkretzer wrote:Um you do know the rules speficaly say SDC damage does NOT upgrade to MD unless it is a missile. Now if you want houserule it does that is fine but you shouldn't assume everyone does.

Read Balabantos' post.

You are right maybe it was house rule I have to look deeper in the books....because I am sorry your character could just work around and tear apart a nomal SDC tank with his bare hands...which is just as silly.

Kalidor wrote:Well, in an SDC only world this would be the case anyway.

35 PS is 'normal' but it's not realistic. No one is that strong except comic book characters. And a comic book character *could* punch a tank.

Yes, this is quite on to my point I was making. Typically in Rifts it's hard to break the 30 damage mark with pure SDC; either you're a really big but "normal-strength" Dee-Bee, or you rolled exceptionally well and took all the strength-boosting skills (which puts you at a PS of 43 without class bonuses, or 1d6+28 damage), then congradulations, you can typically hit for 1 point of MD on a punch. But given the sheer amount of effort it takes to make a character like this, it really isn't worth while making a self-righting problem (where it is possible to do MD with normal human strength, but the effort required is enough to discourage most, if not all players).

Which is why I use a 30:1 ratio. I did try and test out a 20:1 and a 25:1, but found that while easier to calculate they weren't doing the job of keeping with the verisimilitude I wanted (where MDC was still really strong, but not overwhelmingly so).

So far I've really only had to modify one OCC for being grossly disproportionate, and that was the Titan Juicer (for its unusually high amounts of SDC). It also makes the players feel a little tougher as well; when they get hit for 3 mega-damage (a bad roll on a laser pistol), it amounts to 90 SDC; typically a killing blow in standard Rifts, but survivable (if not otherwise completely disabling) with the lower ratio I've presented.

johnkretzer wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

johnkretzer wrote:Um you do know the rules speficaly say SDC damage does NOT upgrade to MD unless it is a missile. Now if you want houserule it does that is fine but you shouldn't assume everyone does.

Read Balabantos' post.

You are right maybe it was house rule I have to look deeper in the books....because I am sorry your character could just work around and tear apart a nomal SDC tank with his bare hands...which is just as silly.

Not the info I was pointing you to; he uses a 10:1 ratio for MDC, meaning that even a 9mm pistol can crack MDC material.

But yes, being able to tear apart a tank with your bare hands (and those hands not being anything special) is silly.

Dog_O_War wrote:

jaymz wrote:At 10-1 ratio a .50 cal based on the MWC version firing 10 rounds (using HU2 burst rules) does x3 damage on a short burst so the damage is 1d6x10+10 sdc x 3 - 3d6x10+30 sdc or 3d6+3 mdc. Doesn;t seem to trivialize mdc to me since a c-40r railgun does double the damage for a burst that takes the same amount of time to fire off at 1d4x10 mdc. Based on the rules an M-16 out of the MWC will do 1d6x10 sdc on a 3 round burst (again using the HU2 burst rules as they are the most up to date and I THINK they are teh dame in RUE) or 1d6 mdc, equal tot eh lowest powered mdc pistols. Again ahrdly trivializing mdc.

I can afford atleast 10 GAW remakes of those MGs though for every SAMAS railgun there is, and they don't weigh 92Lbs, but a comparatively "light" 84Lbs.

Which is part of my point; if SDC weapons are far cheaper but still effective there comes a point where cost meets efficiency. The SDC gun is atleast 10 times cheaper, while the MDC gun isn't even 5 times as effective. It's like paying 40 million dollars for a pen that writes in space, when a pencil works just as good and didn't cost you 40 million.

I still don;t feel that 10-1 trivializes it the way seem to think it does. Could be just a difference of opinion. The problem is I thin we have MDC now and they did nothing to show any progression to show how we went from SDC to MDC. Your 30-1 is a good idea anything at least half of 100-1 is a good idea because 100-1 is too outrageous.

I use MDC as is.

I do let people (players) know this. MD is aReal Term used in the game. It stands for MILITARY Damage (&) Capacity. Streetpunks use the terms Mega, etc..as a form of slang.
Chromium Guardsman is the actual term for a GB, but young punks call them Glitterboys as Slang. They do know the real name however.

MD Weapons are the Anti-Armor weapons.
MDC Armors are the Anti-Armor Resistant Armors. They are not MD-Proof, just Resistant.

I thought about using GIGA-Damage for Nukes and Weapons of Mass Destruction like it.

Rather than changing the whole way MDC works, something I've mulled over is having vibro gauntlets and boots.

The fiction behind this idea is that extra mortal strength doesn't let you do mega damage, but it does allow you to keep a MD weapon pressed against a target for longer against the weapons kickback. And keeping the blade there longer does more damage.

So work out some ratio of converting strength damage bonus to MD that seems to scale well for you, and they can wear vibro gauntlets and boots (for kicks) and do damage that way.

Know what I mean?

And also, if punching a tank apart seems silly...fireball!

Noon wrote:And also, if punching a tank apart seems silly...fireball!

Hehe, for otherwise normal people to do. This game does still perport verisimilitude. I don't believe that it should be impossible, just very, very unlikely.

Equip you guys with Vibro-Spike Armor (Juicer Uprising) to do HtH MD damages.
Simple, and problem solved.

I use a house rule that S.D.C. weapons can inflict 1/2 damage to M.D.C. objects on a Critical Strike roll. Full damage on a roll of Natural 20. It helps my players to avoid feeling invulnerable if an Ak-47 can crack their optics or take chips off of their armor.

But then, I also reduce M.D.C. weapons against living S.D.C. beings to x2 damage Direct to Hit Points, completely ignoring S.D.C. armor unless it has over 100 S.D.C. (in which case, damage is -1 per 100 S.D.C.). Instant Death if it was a Critical Strike. So, M.D.C. attacks are more survivable, but players will still need immediate medical attention, and likely cybernetic replacements.

jaymz wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I'm not sure what your saying here but from what I gather you think that people only want to be realistic on forums and not in game.

I am saying that I have never been in a grp that has ever wanted this specific of info.

In 25 years plus of RPG'ing I've personally never encountered a grp or setting that wanted to be this specific, on any level.

I know that they are out there, but I've never seen any ..

Yep they are, just try to check out Pheonix Command. 60+ hit locations on teh human body. Also Rolemaster/Spacemanster with a book for only rolling critical hits etc. Nasty stuff and I do NOT lay them for that reason.

Exactly, some people like games that a very realistic and have rules for everything and others like free flowing games that are rules light or games that are more comic book or fantastic etc.

It's not like one is better than another.

I prefer to use the term cinematic

I use it as it is written in the RMB and first version of Robotech where no matter the weapon if it does SDC it can not to MDC unless it is capable of doing 100SD from a single round. So none of this it's a .50 cal machine gun so it can go through MDC crap.

I use MDC as written. I however grant light mdc to some things otherwise not given it by the rules like tanks.

Dog_O_War wrote:Hehe, for otherwise normal people to do. This game does still perport verisimilitude. I don't believe that it should be impossible, just very, very unlikely.

Any realism went right out the window when someone told me I could play a dragon.

Golden Owl wrote:Hello...just curious in regards to falling SDC and MDC characters....My character is a were-beast, she is immune to MD damage and has no actual MDC rating, only hit points, I guess for the fact that she is simply undamaged by MD weapons and such, though silver and magic can kill her....So my curiosity is, what would happen to her if she fell from a great height? Is there an actual answer to such a thought in any of the books? Or is it conjecture? Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Only if she falls on enchanted or silver rocks.

Well, thanks for the feedback guys. For now I'll play it as written and we'll see if we can adjust our style into it.

We've only played our first session so I want to give us time to get used to it. Next session will be more combat heavy so we'll see then how it all plays out.

I still think a rewrite on some of the core to include something similar to Damage Reduction and Hardness would solve a lot of problems though.

Kalidor wrote:Well, thanks for the feedback guys. For now I'll play it as written and we'll see if we can adjust our style into it.

We've only played our first session so I want to give us time to get used to it. Next session will be more combat heavy so we'll see then how it all plays out.

I still think a rewrite on some of the core to include something similar to Damage Reduction and Hardness would solve a lot of problems though.

but it is exactly like damage reduction .... it is DR 100/MD weapon
.

Try one of the many TW gauntlets that up PS to Supernatural.

Golden Owl wrote:

Khanibal wrote:

Golden Owl wrote:Hello...just curious in regards to falling SDC and MDC characters....My character is a were-beast, she is immune to MD damage and has no actual MDC rating, only hit points, I guess for the fact that she is simply undamaged by MD weapons and such, though silver and magic can kill her....So my curiosity is, what would happen to her if she fell from a great height? Is there an actual answer to such a thought in any of the books? Or is it conjecture? Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Only if she falls on enchanted or silver rocks.

That would bite ....

Bites - werecat