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Ok, I've not really read a lot for N&SS/MC until recently, and I hadn't thought too much about body chi before. I don't know if this has been discussed to death already in this forum (didn't see anything in the first 200 thread titles), but... is it just me, or does it seem ridiculously broken? Especially just in the context of N&SS, where the SDC of most beings is pretty low? I mean a 4th level Snake Style Martial Artist with a PE of 25 could reasonably hit for around 100 damage if he wanted to blitz an opponent, right? That's instant death for most characters, right?

Or am I missing something?

Snake Style only studies Negative Chi, and Body Chi is a Positive Chi ability.

My bad.

Yeah, though, then Tai-Chi, is absurd in the same way.

And I was just saying 100 damage since I figured that even if blitzing he'd not risk everything on 1 just 1 melee round.

The other thing is that an enlightened immortal or something, who's studied several martial arts, and probably has a PE around at least 20 is going to have at least 3000 chi... They could run at over 10,000 mph (42.6 miles in 15 seconds??? LOL), or 15000 damage if applied to PS? I dunno, even with the 1 melee duration, it seems like a pretty crazy power. Especially compared to a lot of other abilities in the book.

Crazy Lou wrote:Ok, I've not really read a lot for N&SS/MC until recently, and I hadn't thought too much about body chi before. I don't know if this has been discussed to death already in this forum (didn't see anything in the first 200 thread titles), but... is it just me, or does it seem ridiculously broken? Especially just in the context of N&SS, where the SDC of most beings is pretty low? I mean a 4th level Snake Style Martial Artist with a PE of 25 could reasonably hit for around 100 damage if he wanted to blitz an opponent, right? That's instant death for most characters, right?

Or am I missing something?

I'd have to check my notes, but the styles that have access to Body Chi and Double Existing Chi generally have low Strike bonuses and a low number of Attacks per Melee. So generally the person getting attacked only has to dodge a single attack with a low number -- unless it's a really good roll.

Body chi in other posts on this forum have said 2XStat is a good rule of thumb. Yet Another
broken Chi abilities are Hard Chi/Soft Chi-Read it!

Crazy Lou wrote:The other thing is that an enlightened immortal or something, who's studied several martial arts, and probably has a PE around at least 20 is going to have at least 3000 chi... They could run at over 10,000 mph (42.6 miles in 15 seconds??? LOL), or 15000 damage if applied to PS? I dunno, even with the 1 melee duration, it seems like a pretty crazy power. Especially compared to a lot of other abilities in the book.

Mephisto wrote:It's powerful, but not overwhelming. After all, Enlightened Immortals are going to be powerful to begin with, so that's not really a fair comparison. And Mystic China is a great book, White Lead Leopards are an opponent to be feared, and even Quicksilver Monkeys can put a hurting on anyone with any level of Chi Mastery.

Yeah, Enlightened Immortals are basically plot points rather than actual encounters.

Shang Li wrote:Use zanshin, to see behind you, body chi for a boost PP for a strike, parry, and dodge bonus, boost your PS just enough to insure that once you make contact they stay down, and use automatic body flip throw to take out anyone who tries to engage in melee while you calmly walk up to who-ever their best is and try to throw him into low-earth orbit.

It could work. Let's see. You automatically win Initiative due to Zanshin.
Attack #1: Concentrate/Activate Body Chi.
Attack #2: Use Body Chi.
Attack #3: Attack. (Or more appropriately, Defend, as Auto. BF/T is a defense.)

You'd still lose two attacks activating Body Chi. And, all depending on how many attacks your opponent has, this could really put you in the hole.

Shang Li wrote:Said example takes an Aikido user of mid to high level, but eats swarms of melee goons just as fast as they can rush into the grinder.

Except that Aikido has no access to Martial Arts Techniques.

Shang Li wrote:Tai Chi and Zanji Shinjenken can do something similar, but use paired weapons to parry while dishing out simul. strikes while your attacks hold out, and switching to parries for the rest of the round.

Tai Chi Ch'uan also has no access to Martial Arts Techniques. Zanji could possibly pull it off starting at Level 3.

Combine Lee Kwan Choo with a Snake master-It actually would take 2 classes to do, but you
can combine Martial Art Techniques with Body Chi. Another thing you can do is create the
Spell Body Chi; though IMHO it would have a longer duration than the Chi Mastery. Also you
wouldn't have to take a whole melee to change styles for the LKC/Snakey Style. You can
combine both bonuses. LKC IS very useful. Other combos with LKC could be Zanji, Isshin
Ryu, Tien Hseuh, ect ect.
Poissonally, Ive never really used Isshin Ryu Karate, but there's always a first for every thing.
Grandil

Mephisto wrote:Likewise, Isshin-Ryu is another good style for combining Martial Art Styles with Chi Mastery. By 4th level, they already have Fortress Penetration Kata, and selections of Body Chi, Martial Art Awareness and Kaijutsu, could be in for quite a painful experience. Good bonuses, good number of attacks and good overall skill selection means that Isshin-Ryu is one of the more under-utilized styles in the game. Start with the Kaijutsu, switch on Body Chi, and start striking with high bonuses from the Bo Staff Weapon Kata.

Isshin Ryu is one of my favorites, precisely because of the high amount of skills.

Grandil wrote:Poissonally, Ive never really used Isshin Ryu Karate, but there's always a first for every thing.
Grandil

That is a very fishy statement.

Mantisking wrote:

Mephisto wrote:Likewise, Isshin-Ryu is another good style for combining Martial Art Styles with Chi Mastery. By 4th level, they already have Fortress Penetration Kata, and selections of Body Chi, Martial Art Awareness and Kaijutsu, could be in for quite a painful experience. Good bonuses, good number of attacks and good overall skill selection means that Isshin-Ryu is one of the more under-utilized styles in the game. Start with the Kaijutsu, switch on Body Chi, and start striking with high bonuses from the Bo Staff Weapon Kata.

Isshin Ryu is one of my favorites, precisely because of the high amount of skills.

Grandil wrote:Poissonally, Ive never really used Isshin Ryu Karate, but there's always a first for every thing.
Grandil

That is a very fishy statement.

Weeelll Bois, & Goils, I Like fish DU?

Grandil wrote:Body chi in other posts on this forum have said 2XStat is a good rule of thumb. Yet Another
broken Chi abilities are Hard Chi/Soft Chi-Read it!

Any takers on this, I know its bad taste to answer your own posts, but..........

FaerieKnight wrote:My thoughts... Body chi can be unbalancing for a specific encounter. However it's a self correcting problem. I have two players in a supers campaign that combines HU and N&SS that can be unbalancing. One player is a psychic with hundreds of iSP and a fondness for super telekinesis. The other player is chang ku dragon who has a specific martial arts style that grants chi abilities.

Frequently the guy playing the dragon will pump up strength and prowess with body chi by 30+ points each. The psychic loves to swat foes with several tons worth of weight using his telekinesis. For a single encounter, this is highly unbalancing. Naturally enough though, they rarely get a chance to recover from blowing all their chi/isp in one or two encounters. Such as when they assault a Hydra style terrorist base for a group in my campaign setting. They blew all their might on the soldiers, and had nothing left when a dozen of the high powered robots were sent after them.

Another time the guy with body chi had pumped up his strength really high to deal 60+ damage per attack when facing said robots. And he got chewed up by weapons fire from the regular soldiers.

The only truly broken part of this is the Chiang-Ku didn't have a Vajra...........

FaerieKnight wrote:

Grandil wrote:

FaerieKnight wrote:My thoughts... Body chi can be unbalancing for a specific encounter. However it's a self correcting problem. I have two players in a supers campaign that combines HU and N&SS that can be unbalancing. One player is a psychic with hundreds of iSP and a fondness for super telekinesis. The other player is chang ku dragon who has a specific martial arts style that grants chi abilities.

Frequently the guy playing the dragon will pump up strength and prowess with body chi by 30+ points each. The psychic loves to swat foes with several tons worth of weight using his telekinesis. For a single encounter, this is highly unbalancing. Naturally enough though, they rarely get a chance to recover from blowing all their chi/isp in one or two encounters. Such as when they assault a Hydra style terrorist base for a group in my campaign setting. They blew all their might on the soldiers, and had nothing left when a dozen of the high powered robots were sent after them.

Another time the guy with body chi had pumped up his strength really high to deal 60+ damage per attack when facing said robots. And he got chewed up by weapons fire from the regular soldiers.

The only truely broken part of this is the Chiang-Ku didn't have a Vajra...........

You know, I'm not really sure what the heck a Vajra is suppose to be. You should have heard the players when they realized they had spent themselves BEFORE the climax though.

Look in Mystic China-its a spell to create a Very powerful version of the Talisman........

Get one when u can-it's well worth it

For god's sake don't let them have a vajra

FaerieKnight wrote:

Grandil wrote:For god's sake don't let them have a vajra

Been searching through the chi magic in Mystic China, and still can't find anything on vajra. What page is it on?

And I didn't allow the chang ku hatchling any chi magic. Or any spell magic to begin with. I also required a dang good background for why the 12 day old hatchling knows a martial arts style.

12 day old? dang! Pg 91, Create Vajra. What martial art? Do you allow Multiple classes? & if you
do, don't tell him about the Wu Shih!

Therre is the problem, though that a Wu, or a Tao Shih gets to Roll his spells-unfortunately, you
can have those spells at character creation if you get a high enough roll........It really a choice
between 4 different spells-Bring Wood to Life, Create Vajra, Evoke Animus of Elemental Earth-
Just as bad as Body Chi, & Temporarily Restore Youth & Vitality. I wouldn't allow the geomantic
spell-they're Fang Shih territory. Thirteenth level gets to be hairy. I don't want ppl getting so
rich they don't need anything. The Spit Dragon Pearl is just sick........
The rule is (I don't always follow it) that you have to be at least 3rd level to change classes.
That comes from an old book-Adventures on the High Seas, PFRPG.

FaerieKnight wrote:I might allow a class change, but only if it happens due to roleplay choices rather then rollplay choices. Even then, it's rare. And a freaking dragon? You can't change your class if your race/species is the class. Especially if your race/species is already powerful.

I mean what, he stops being a dragon because he learned magic?

Dragons are the ones who first were the old books to have multiple classes-dude! of course,
some dragons become adults at 8th level-look at Abkii in Africa. Power is relative, my
boy.

Which is why I only play, or GM, Supernats, or Creatures of Magic-they usually don't have the
limitations of say, a Juicer, or a Bionics/Crazy. Bionics in this game are REALLY limited , &
Juicers-I can get the same Auto-Dodge using other rules. Sad. & such limited lifespans...

Have you seen the Alchemist from PFRPG? 3 Classes, & they usually get all their skill lists. Look,
It all depends on the power level of the game. I think, & i hope, that in Kevin's wisdom, that he
set down a series of rules Guidelines. This is what gets most ppls goats, IMHO, that
when they're quoting this or that, they let egos, get in the way, & forget they're really just
guideline, & not just Canon. Look in Underseas, or really anything that CJ Carella has written in
the past. Most of the stuff is REALLY powerful. At the bottom of the Marianas trench lies one
being that tops out at a Million M.D.C.-please dont quote me on the #'s, but the Lord of the
Deep is a medium sized Old One. In the Old Ones, the measure of a God is small compared to
THOSE beings. Please read the quote I have from Joseph Campbell.

FaerieKnight wrote:Sadly, I don't have Palladium Fantasy yet.

But yeah, outside of superheroes most guys that are incredibly powerful off the bat, tend to have limited skills selection. On the other hand in N&SS probably the most powerful character type is actually a gizmoteer. I swear, I made one once with every freaking skill in the book. And then I had to pick secondary skills

I've got to look into it, I've got the book rite next to me.......

Body Chi... one of those powers that, when done right, can turn almost any character into a beast, physically and mentally speaking (If I recall correctly, body chi can even boost MA and ME... I don't recall QUITE off the top of my head).

When done wrong... can spell disaster for not only your character, but any PC or NPC who might depend upon them actually USING the ability. The main drawback to this chi ability is the simple fact that it is temporary (one melee and your chi is used, hope you beat out your villian).

One way to compensate for the chi's limited time span is Dragon Chi. Tap dynamic chi and you have a continual and renewable source of chi energy to draw upon so long as you are in a positive chi environment. Sure Dragon Chi is only semi-effective in your usual positive chi area (1 to 2 points in MOST areas that are just TEEMING with life), but look at it this way.

First action, tap dynamic chi and pump those points into body chi, you have an instant boost without having to use any of your own reserves. Since Dragon Chi allows you to immediately put those points SOMEWHERE. So, it's a small boost, but it gets the goal accomplished and you can keep tapping it every melee, to keep those boosts continual without having to dive even further into your characters own chi.

This is especially useful for those Martial Artists that don't get much in the way of Chi doublers/boosters, who have a limited about of chi. Build to your weaknesses if you want a generally well-rounded character. Build to your strengths if you want a beast. Having a continual source of chi to tap into turns body chi into a deadly chi ability since you can boost your characters stats by 5-10, to as high as 20 points a melee round for as long as combat lasts.

How bout that?

Johnathan wrote:Body Chi... one of those powers that, when done right, can turn almost any character into a beast, physically and mentally speaking (If I recall correctly, body chi can even boost MA and ME... I don't recall QUITE off the top of my head).

When done wrong... can spell disaster for not only your character, but any PC or NPC who might depend upon them actually USING the ability. The main drawback to this chi ability is the simple fact that it is temporary (one melee and your chi is used, hope you beat out your villian).

One way to compensate for the chi's limited time span is Dragon Chi. Tap dynamic chi and you have a continual and renewable source of chi energy to draw upon so long as you are in a positive chi environment. Sure Dragon Chi is only semi-effective in your usual positive chi area (1 to 2 points in MOST areas that are just TEEMING with life), but look at it this way.

First action, tap dynamic chi and pump those points into body chi, you have an instant boost without having to use any of your own reserves. Since Dragon Chi allows you to immediately put those points SOMEWHERE. So, it's a small boost, but it gets the goal accomplished and you can keep tapping it every melee, to keep those boosts continual without having to dive even further into your characters own chi.

This is especially useful for those Martial Artists that don't get much in the way of Chi doublers/boosters, who have a limited about of chi. Build to your weaknesses if you want a generally well-rounded character. Build to your strengths if you want a beast. Having a continual source of chi to tap into turns body chi into a deadly chi ability since you can boost your characters stats by 5-10, to as high as 20 points a melee round for as long as combat lasts.

How bout that?

This trick is a little harder than you think. First of all you need a minimum of five (5) Attacks per Melee to pull it off, and you need both Chi Mastery powers.

Here's a list of styles that could do it and at which level it becomes accessible:
Ba Gua @ 14
Hsing I @ 11
Hwarang Do @ 11
Isshin Ryu @ 9
Kyokushinkai @ 9
Shantung Black Tiger @ 15
Monkey style @ 9
Xing Chiao @ 11
Zanji Shinjinken Ryu @ 7.

Nine styles out of 51 can pull it off. Not too many.

Now let's look at how it's done. Let's assume you win initiative.
Attack #1: Concentrate/Activate Dragon Chi.
Attack #2: Use Dragon Chi.
Attack #3: Concentrate/Activate Body Chi.
Attack #4: Use Body Chi.
Attack #5: Attack.

Your opponent(s) has four attacks to your one. So, all in all the situation is not looking too good for your character.

Final Verdict: This trick isn't as powerful as some people think it is.

Unfortunately, with the above, I think you can only have 1 Chi Mastery ability going at a time-
you Can quote me on this, this is where the Zenjoriki Doublemind comes in. See if you can
apply this.....1st zenjoriki, Doublemind, then Dragon Chi, Then Body Chi. if you're in a negative
Chi Enviroment, then the opposite of Dragon Chi is useful-I forgot the name of it!
Also, PPL forget that they can have more than 1 Martial art-Lee Kwan Choo is extremely useful.
1 zenjoriki at 1st, & either 3 Martial Art Techniques, or Body Hardening exersizes. And you get
full bonuses for Lee Kwan Choo. Another one that is not as useful, but still pretty nice-Pao
Chih. You get a few abilities at 1st-Atemi, or Chi Mastery, then at 8th-the same. The
interesting thing 'bout Pao Chih is that you get armor-the Animus.

Mantisking wrote:

Johnathan wrote:Body Chi... one of those powers that, when done right, can turn almost any character into a beast, physically and mentally speaking (If I recall correctly, body chi can even boost MA and ME... I don't recall QUITE off the top of my head).

When done wrong... can spell disaster for not only your character, but any PC or NPC who might depend upon them actually USING the ability. The main drawback to this chi ability is the simple fact that it is temporary (one melee and your chi is used, hope you beat out your villian).

One way to compensate for the chi's limited time span is Dragon Chi. Tap dynamic chi and you have a continual and renewable source of chi energy to draw upon so long as you are in a positive chi environment. Sure Dragon Chi is only semi-effective in your usual positive chi area (1 to 2 points in MOST areas that are just TEEMING with life), but look at it this way.

First action, tap dynamic chi and pump those points into body chi, you have an instant boost without having to use any of your own reserves. Since Dragon Chi allows you to immediately put those points SOMEWHERE. So, it's a small boost, but it gets the goal accomplished and you can keep tapping it every melee, to keep those boosts continual without having to dive even further into your characters own chi.

This is especially useful for those Martial Artists that don't get much in the way of Chi doublers/boosters, who have a limited about of chi. Build to your weaknesses if you want a generally well-rounded character. Build to your strengths if you want a beast. Having a continual source of chi to tap into turns body chi into a deadly chi ability since you can boost your characters stats by 5-10, to as high as 20 points a melee round for as long as combat lasts.

How bout that?

This trick is a little harder than you think. First of all you need a minimum of five (5) Attacks per Melee to pull it off, and you need both Chi Mastery powers.

Here's a list of styles that could do it and at which level it becomes accessible:
Ba Gua @ 14
Hsing I @ 11
Hwarang Do @ 11
Isshin Ryu @ 9
Kyokushinkai @ 9
Shantung Black Tiger @ 15
Monkey style @ 9
Xing Chiao @ 11
Zanji Shinjinken Ryu @ 7.

Nine styles out of 51 can pull it off. Not too many.

Now let's look at how it's done. Let's assume you win initiative.
Attack #1: Concentrate/Activate Dragon Chi.
Attack #2: Use Dragon Chi.
Attack #3: Concentrate/Activate Body Chi.
Attack #4: Use Body Chi.
Attack #5: Attack.

Your opponent(s) has four attacks to your one. So, all in all the situation is not looking too good for your character.

Final Verdict: This trick isn't as powerful as some people think it is.

I can partially agree. I think it's the bee's knees thanks to a characters naturally high PP. And Dragon Chi needs to be activated, yes, but if you're going to use it, it says it can feed into another chi ability as well. Feed it into Body Chi, activate body chi. You've only used 2-3 attacks.

I don't recall there being rules about it taking two melee actions to utilize chi abilities. They function more like psionics. One melee action each. Where does the concentrate and activate thing come into play? That sounds more like magic than Chi...

If I am mistaken, I am willing to entertain that fact... Since I'm going off of memory here.

Mephisto wrote:Yep, a key sentense in Mystic China, page 153 makes the Body Chi and Dragon Chi combo more powerful. It is "Switching from one Chi ability to another Chi ability means focusing the Chi once again and requires another melee action. Generally, a character can only perform once Chi ability at a time. Only those with the ability to 'tap' Chi can continuie drawing on a source of Chi while doing something else with Chi."

So using the Mantisking example, the character has the disadvantage of having to focus the Dragon Chi and focus the Body Chi (costing two attacks total), but the next melee round, the character will have an active Body Chi (of course, costing a melee attack at the beginning of the round, a relatively minor loss considering the attribute boosts), and 2+ attacks to use in hand to hand combat.

Thanks Mephisto for the agreement and walk through on that!

I knew it was in there somewhere. I was just having trouble fiding it. Though I did find the part where one of the uses for Dragon Chi was to feed into a seperate chi ability (N&SS).

So, while, yes, one has to sacrifice a few melee attacks in the long run. I would agree that the benefit outweighs the cost. Especially for mid-leveled characters who have more than the standard 4-5 attacks per melee round.

Most epic battles take more than a melee to do anyway, right? If you have built a good character, they won't usually be so anxious to use their chi abilities at the onset. The character I'm running right now (7th level Zanji Shinjinken Ryu), usually uses his first melee to evaluate his opponents and determine the best course of action to defeat them. That is an excellent time to invest in dragon chi and some use that as he needs. His opponents usually think that they've got him on the defensive for that first 15 seconds... right before he strikes anyway...

Yeah, this made me smile

Crazy Lou wrote:...They could run at over 10,000 mph...

Because, in a lot of ways, that's what it's like.