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Two Super Samas.

Both flying at max speed ..

Both trying to down each other ..

What are the penalties to strike each other ?

Is this a trick question?

I'd say that the normal one for fast moving objects would apply. I think that's -6. Although a targeting system might be able to analyse the situation and suggest a lead to reduce that penalty by half. Depends how swanky you want your super samas to be, I suppose.

Lenwen wrote:Two Super Samas.

Both flying at max speed ..

Both trying to down each other ..

What are the penalties to strike each other ?

Depends melee at high speeds or shooting?
What kind of shooting Machinegun, Railgun, Plasma, Ion, PPC, Laser?
Also depends on possition.
If your in the slot and you have a machinegun and the guys just jinking side to side then it is no different than hitting a dodging target on the ground. If your opponent was traveling perpendicular to your trajectory and you were using a machinegun you'd have to lead him and then the attack would be the same as a high speed target. If your using a laser you don't have to lead you just have to be able to keep the reticle on target so it would be a little easier but still a fast moving target. All of that is just too many calculations though. So just a -6 to hit a fast moving target going over x mph (maybe do x-y mph where x is theres and y is yours IF your trajectories are parallel to figure out the mph for qalifying for a "fast moving" target). Do you know how to tell if an aircraft you are in and another one flying to the same point in space, from two seperate headings, are going to collide? The other plane will look like its not moving. Its all relative.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Two Super Samas.

Both flying at max speed ..

Both trying to down each other ..

What are the penalties to strike each other ?

Depends melee at high speeds or shooting?
What kind of shooting Machinegun, Railgun, Plasma, Ion, PPC, Laser?
Also depends on possition.
If your in the slot and you have a machinegun and the guys just jinking side to side then it is no different than hitting a dodging target on the ground. If your opponent was traveling perpendicular to your trajectory and you were using a machinegun you'd have to lead him and then the attack would be the same as a high speed target. If your using a laser you don't have to lead you just have to be able to keep the reticle on target so it would be a little easier but still a fast moving target. All of that is just too many calculations though. So just a -6 to hit a fast moving target going over x mph (maybe do x-y mph where x is theres and y is yours IF your trajectories are parallel to figure out the mph for qalifying for a "fast moving" target). Do you know how to tell if an aircraft you are in and another one flying to the same point in space, from two seperate headings, are going to collide? The other plane will look like its not moving. Its all relative.

Already been stated ..

Max velocity for a Super samas .. and the Weapon systems being used are the Super Samas weapon systems ..

In game what is the penalty to strike each other ?

Not to sound condisending .. but considering their super samas , flying at max velocity, its pretty safe bet their not melee'ing each other .. so you can take that aspect outta the equation.

Lenwen wrote:[

Not to sound condisending .. but considering their super samas , flying at max velocity, its pretty safe bet their not melee'ing each other .. so you can take that aspect outta the equation.

It could be a "jousting" style contest. Might as well use those vibro-blades for something.


But to answer your question - it would damn near be impossible to hit - the combined penalty for Shooting Wild (-6) and Target is Moving (-10 at 500 MPH) is a little too excessive and shows a lack of play testing and understanding of technology used in air-to-air combat. If they had kept the old RMB rule that Shooting Wild doesn't apply to those trained in the WP, and include a mention that the suits combat computer negates the movement penalties to strike, or a dedicated/elite trained PA pilot can negate the penalties.

Otherwise combat is going to take way too long.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Lenwen wrote:[

Not to sound condisending .. but considering their super samas , flying at max velocity, its pretty safe bet their not melee'ing each other .. so you can take that aspect outta the equation.

It could be a "jousting" style contest. Might as well use those vibro-blades for something.


But to answer your question - it would damn near be impossible to hit - the combined penalty for Shooting Wild (-6) and Target is Moving (-10 at 500 MPH) is a little too excessive and shows a lack of play testing and understanding of technology used in air-to-air combat. If they had kept the old RMB rule that Shooting Wild doesn't apply to those trained in the WP, and include a mention that the suits combat computer negates the movement penalties to strike, or a dedicated/elite trained PA pilot can negate the penalties.

Otherwise combat is going to take way too long.

You could fix that by just adding a blurb in the Weapon Proficiency or RPA elite +X leading your target.

Though I'd also allow the targeting systems to negate part of the penalty not to mention if you are dogfighting at the same velocity then I wouldn;t even use the fast moving target penalty since in a dogfight ing position you are essentially going the same velocity thus not moving any faster in relation to each otehr thus no real fast moving penalty applies.

By the book howevr yes they woudl be at least -10 to striek do to speed but I am not sure -6 shooting wild would apply since you are targeting with the targeting system thus not really shooting wild.

With a targeting system engaged I would never consider it shooting wild unless the pilot has no view of the target or is startled. I would also lower penalties in a dog fight situation where each is facing each other or both keeping within combat range of each other. This is a time where good old natural 20 plays a big part, automatic hit & double damage, roll long enough a few will be scored.

When I design vehicles I usually make most of the weapons aim backwards as I'm usually the one being chased and out numbered.

Several Poster's have stated due to "Combat Computer" and or "Targeting Systems" yet .. these systems do not work as such or are not explained to work as such ..

Perhaps some one has a home made system they use if so would you mind showing it ? I am currently trying to find a great balance between what is written .. and what is played ..

Personally, I wouldn't add anything for a "combat computer" beyond the bonus listed for that suit of armor. In the case of a Super SAMAS, the only bonus to strike is from the pilot's Elite Power Armor training--not the suit itself.

Mack wrote:Personally, I wouldn't add anything for a "combat computer" beyond the bonus listed for that suit of armor. In the case of a Super SAMAS, the only bonus to strike is from the pilot's Elite Power Armor training--not the suit itself.

Wouldn't it get a targeting bonus from sensors etc as every other PA does Mack?

jaymz wrote:

Mack wrote:Personally, I wouldn't add anything for a "combat computer" beyond the bonus listed for that suit of armor. In the case of a Super SAMAS, the only bonus to strike is from the pilot's Elite Power Armor training--not the suit itself.

Wouldn't it get a targeting bonus from sensors etc as every other PA does Mack?

I include that when I say "beyond the bonus listed for that suit of armor." However, looking at RUE p271, it's only a +1 Strike. Not really significant against the -10 or so discussed previously.

Additionally, there's a statement that the +1 doesn't apply to SAMAS. That's probably meant to only refer to the old-style SAMAS in RUE, but one could argue it apllies to all SAMAS.

So to sum this up...

Bonuses
+2 Strike from PA Combat Elite, RUE p352
+1 Strike from all PA suits, RUE p271
+1 Strike from Weapon Systems skill, RUE p320

Penalties
-6 Strike for shooting Wild, RUE p361
-10 Strike for a target moving at 500mph, RUE p361

Result
-12 Strike for each SAMAS

Have I missed anything?

Lenwen wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Two Super Samas.

Both flying at max speed ..

Both trying to down each other ..

What are the penalties to strike each other ?

Depends melee at high speeds or shooting?
What kind of shooting Machinegun, Railgun, Plasma, Ion, PPC, Laser?
Also depends on possition.
If your in the slot and you have a machinegun and the guys just jinking side to side then it is no different than hitting a dodging target on the ground. If your opponent was traveling perpendicular to your trajectory and you were using a machinegun you'd have to lead him and then the attack would be the same as a high speed target. If your using a laser you don't have to lead you just have to be able to keep the reticle on target so it would be a little easier but still a fast moving target. All of that is just too many calculations though. So just a -6 to hit a fast moving target going over x mph (maybe do x-y mph where x is theres and y is yours IF your trajectories are parallel to figure out the mph for qalifying for a "fast moving" target). Do you know how to tell if an aircraft you are in and another one flying to the same point in space, from two seperate headings, are going to collide? The other plane will look like its not moving. Its all relative.

Already been stated ..

Max velocity for a Super samas .. and the Weapon systems being used are the Super Samas weapon systems ..

In game what is the penalty to strike each other ?

Not to sound condisending .. but considering their super samas , flying at max velocity, its pretty safe bet their not melee'ing each other .. so you can take that aspect outta the equation.

Well unless one is a super samas that had an operator upgrade it You don't sound condescending all of that stuff is in there. I'd say no mods as long as the one firing is behind the other. -3, flying side by side or on other parallel paths and a -6 if not on parallel paths. There is no canon for this, it is just my opinion... well except the -6.

Mack wrote:So to sum this up...

Bonuses
+2 Strike from PA Combat Elite, RUE p352
+1 Strike from all PA suits, RUE p271
+1 Strike from Weapon Systems skill, RUE p320

Penalties
-6 Strike for shooting Wild, RUE p361
-10 Strike for a target moving at 500mph, RUE p361

Result
-12 Strike for each SAMAS

Have I missed anything?

Looks good, though some might argue that the WP Heavy Energy skill could come into play.

I have issue with the current rulesfor moving objects. For onething I think only relative movement should count, if I'm behind a plane moving 400 mph and i am moving 400 mph the relative movement is 0. I have other problems with it but I don't have time to go into them now.

dead fenris wrote:
the penalty for moving objects makes sense, but im not sure about the shooting wild. RUE gives the example of "shooting from a moving vehicle/platform/horseback," also "while running," thus going by that the only way that a samas could not take a -6 is to be on the ground, and that just seems a bit silly. in the event that the shooter is taking evasive action and moving at max speed shooting wild makes sense, but moving at cruising speed and shooting at a target on the ground should not incur that kind of penalty. a samas is supposed to be a top line flying power armor and a major part of the CS war machine, the super sam even more so, so i would think that it would be built with that kind of use in mind.

I agree its top of the line and a big part of the CS war machine, but the rules just don't support it or much of anything on when it comes to this. It is a moving platform and the operator is attempting to both fly the suit and fight at the same time and that is I believe the "reasoning" behind it.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

dead fenris wrote:
the penalty for moving objects makes sense, but im not sure about the shooting wild. RUE gives the example of "shooting from a moving vehicle/platform/horseback," also "while running," thus going by that the only way that a samas could not take a -6 is to be on the ground, and that just seems a bit silly. in the event that the shooter is taking evasive action and moving at max speed shooting wild makes sense, but moving at cruising speed and shooting at a target on the ground should not incur that kind of penalty. a samas is supposed to be a top line flying power armor and a major part of the CS war machine, the super sam even more so, so i would think that it would be built with that kind of use in mind.

I agree its top of the line and a big part of the CS war machine, but the rules just don't support it or much of anything on when it comes to this. It is a moving platform and the operator is attempting to both fly the suit and fight at the same time and that is I believe the "reasoning" behind it.

Wait that mean every power armour [and robots] are shooting wild when moving. Short of Gliterboys everything does move that seems stupid. I think is suppose to refer to if you are balancing or hang on to a vehicle. not if you are piloting a combat power armour build to do this very job.

dead fenris wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Mack wrote:So to sum this up...

Bonuses
+2 Strike from PA Combat Elite, RUE p352
+1 Strike from all PA suits, RUE p271
+1 Strike from Weapon Systems skill, RUE p320

Penalties
-6 Strike for shooting Wild, RUE p361
-10 Strike for a target moving at 500mph, RUE p361

Result
-12 Strike for each SAMAS

Have I missed anything?

Looks good, though some might argue that the WP Heavy Energy skill could come into play.

the penalty for moving objects makes sense, but im not sure about the shooting wild. RUE gives the example of "shooting from a moving vehicle/platform/horseback," also "while running," thus going by that the only way that a samas could not take a -6 is to be on the ground, and that just seems a bit silly. in the event that the shooter is taking evasive action and moving at max speed shooting wild makes sense, but moving at cruising speed and shooting at a target on the ground should not incur that kind of penalty. a samas is supposed to be a top line flying power armor and a major part of the CS war machine, the super sam even more so, so i would think that it would be built with that kind of use in mind.

Shooting from horseback or a moving vehicle is different than a smooth flying vehicle. Ground vehicles shake & vibrate from movement and rough terrain makes it worst, a Samas would have some penalties but its designed for stability and once again a targeting system that locks on to the target. Travelling at the similar speed should negate some penalties and the samas being chased should receive penalties to dodge for loosing sight of pursuer. Lasers have no recoil to hamper targeting. Depends on the situation but too many penalties can lead to a really long battle that can turn increasable boring for the rest of the play group.

Saitou Hajime wrote:Wait that mean every power armour [and robots] are shooting wild when moving. Short of Gliterboys everything does move that seems stupid. I think is suppose to refer to if you are balancing or hang on to a vehicle. not if you are piloting a combat power armour build to do this very job.

That's basically because the rules as written were made for man vs man, and doesn't take into account vehicle. As stated previously under the old Rifts Main Book rules, as long as you fired a weapon that you had a weapon prof in, you had no penalty to strike. RUE changed that completely.

I don't believe the rule would apply to designated gunners of multi-crewed combat vehicles though.

dead fenris wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:
I don't believe the rule would apply to designated gunners of multi-crewed combat vehicles though.

which is the issue with the rule. as its written, it does, because they are in a moving vehicle, never mind the fact that they are not piloting it. i would think its more for shooting out of the open back hatch of a death's head or an atv or something like that. unless you take into account that vehicles and types of power armor are built to move while firing putting guns on them seems kinda pointless. i mean, sure its great that a sky cycle has guns on it, but if you cant shoot them accurately while your flying it why even bother?

No I don't believe it would apply - the gunner only has one job to do and that's completely independent of the pilot. Only the pilot would receive the Shooting Wild penalty if he attempted to fire a weapon.

Again though it comes down to poor rules for vehicles. I'll point again to the old rules where we didn't have movement penalties, and Shooting Wild incurred no penalties for a person trained in the weapon they were shooting. Heck you could still retain a bonus to hit back then...

runebeo wrote:

dead fenris wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Mack wrote:So to sum this up...

Bonuses
+2 Strike from PA Combat Elite, RUE p352
+1 Strike from all PA suits, RUE p271
+1 Strike from Weapon Systems skill, RUE p320

Penalties
-6 Strike for shooting Wild, RUE p361
-10 Strike for a target moving at 500mph, RUE p361

Result
-12 Strike for each SAMAS

Have I missed anything?

Looks good, though some might argue that the WP Heavy Energy skill could come into play.

the penalty for moving objects makes sense, but im not sure about the shooting wild. RUE gives the example of "shooting from a moving vehicle/platform/horseback," also "while running," thus going by that the only way that a samas could not take a -6 is to be on the ground, and that just seems a bit silly. in the event that the shooter is taking evasive action and moving at max speed shooting wild makes sense, but moving at cruising speed and shooting at a target on the ground should not incur that kind of penalty. a samas is supposed to be a top line flying power armor and a major part of the CS war machine, the super sam even more so, so i would think that it would be built with that kind of use in mind.

Shooting from horseback or a moving vehicle is different than a smooth flying vehicle. Ground vehicles shake & vibrate from movement and rough terrain makes it worst, a Samas would have some penalties but its designed for stability and once again a targeting system that locks on to the target. Travelling at the similar speed should negate some penalties and the samas being chased should receive penalties to dodge for loosing sight of pursuer. Lasers have no recoil to hamper targeting. Depends on the situation but too many penalties can lead to a really long battle that can turn increasable boring for the rest of the play group.

Actually Mythbusters prooved that a vehicle moving across a fast surface is less affected at higher speeds.

I have no problem with the speed mod but the Wild is stupid. It wither or really either take the Wild penelty or the Moviement, taking both is insane.

Don't forget that each has a +5 to dodge as well.

I would note that in the RGMG the lengthy definition of Shooting Wild, under the 'When shooting from a moving object' section, it mentions from a moving vehicle/platform/horse, but specifically points out that it does not include weapon systems, mounted weapons, or turrets on power armor, robots, cyborgs, or vehicles. Also doesn't apply to natural ranged attacks from supers or supernatural creatures. Specifically applying to people firing hand-held weapons while standing on or hanging off/out of moving objects.

As for movement penalties, I would keep it relative between the two, which makes piloting and fancy maneuvers more important, and keeps it logical when you do end up in a dog tail going at the same speeds.

Armorlord wrote:I would note that in the RGMG the lengthy definition of Shooting Wild, under the 'When shooting from a moving object' section, it mentions from a moving vehicle/platform/horse, but specifically points out that it does not include weapon systems, mounted weapons, or turrets on power armor, robots, cyborgs, or vehicles. Also doesn't apply to natural ranged attacks from supers or supernatural creatures. Specifically applying to people firing hand-held weapons while standing on or hanging off/out of moving objects.

Good find!

(I never used the GMG myself, and some might argue that RUE trumps it since its a later book and since RUE adds the -6 penalty for everyone that meets the shooting wild criteria now)

dead fenris wrote:so the question is, does a super sam moving at max speed qualify as a moving vehicle/running person?

I would say no going by the RGMG - the plasma cannons are a "mounted" weapon on the SAMAS that the pilot doesn't physically control.

Now if he were using a hand held weapon, that would be a Wild Shot

I would not apply wild shooting penalty to people using the integrated weapon systems on a vehicle. The penalty is more for people shooting out of windows/hatches of moving vehicles not for using the build in weapon systems.

Say somebody is on a sky cycle if they try to shoot a hand weapon off there you are wild shooting but if you are using the integrated weapon systems I would not.

Even today modern combat vehicles have active stabilization systems so their gunners can fire weapons accurately at long range at full speed. I cannot imagine why when tech far in the future is used they would forget minor things like weapon stabilization.

If you want to see some impressive stuff just check out some videos of abrams main battle tanks shooting on the move at full speed while going over terrain. Watch the turret it compensates fully for all but the most drastic motions of the tank which allows them to shoot targets miles away at speed accurately.

In the past, I've done that "Wild" only counts if going over cruising speed and for integrated weapons I let them roll their Weapon Systems skill negating a -1 per 12% they beat their skill by (based on the 12% rule for vehicle combat in HU2 and N&SS) for both the Wild and speed penalty. Handheld guns I allow Heavy Energy WP, but no WS to negate the penalties.

I've also been thinking about trying to incorporate the dogfighting rules from HU2, N&SS, and spaceship fighting from Phase World for power armor. It is all based on the dog tail vs dog stuff and since I don't know about this stuff IRL I'm not sure if it should really apply to something like power armor that can more easily change directions mid flight.

C. Chopps

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

dead fenris wrote:so the question is, does a super sam moving at max speed qualify as a moving vehicle/running person?

I would say no

Dustin, I'd like to know your definition of a vehicle then ..

kaid wrote:If you want to see some impressive stuff just check out some videos of Abrams main battle tanks shooting on the move at full speed while going over terrain. Watch the turret it compensates fully for all but the most drastic motions of the tank which allows them to shoot targets miles away at speed accurately.

The Abrams primary armament range is only 1.9miles.. Not that far considering we now have Sniper Rifles that can reliably snipe from over a mile away .. After talking with a few friends of mine down in Ft.Hood they tell me that yes the Abrams can shoot at full speed while on the move but their accuracy drops to such a low overall rating that anything further then a half a mile becomes hard to hit moving at max speed .. (which differs from on road and off road as well)

Did you know that the turrets of modern tanks are only held on by Gravity ? lol Funny lil trivia something I did not know till my friend told me ..

Lenwen wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

dead fenris wrote:so the question is, does a super sam moving at max speed qualify as a moving vehicle/running person?

I would say no

Dustin, I'd like to know your definition of a vehicle then ..

Well I believe he meant in terms of a Wild Shot, since that's what we were talking about. If you read my entire post, you probably could have figured that out.