Who commands more power ?

[Lenwen]

15th lvl Techno-Wizard ?

15th lvl Bio-Wizard ?

Whats your idea of power ?

Which do you think, and why ?

[keir451]

15th lvl Techno-Wizard ?

15th lvl Bio-Wizard ?

Whats your idea of power ?

Which do you think, and why ?

Power us too subjective, I could easilt say it was neither, that Karl Prosek controls more power than either combined, he rules an entire nation.
But to the point of the post, i'd say they're about equal. They can both create incredible things, one just combines magic and tech nology the other combines, well, magic and strange bio implants.

[Lenwen]

Where can I find OCC info on the Bio-Wizard? Until then I can't make a informed-decision.

Rifts : Atlantis. (book 1)

[Lenwen]

Where can I find OCC info on the Bio-Wizard? Until then I can't make a informed-decision.

Rifts : Atlantis. (book 1)

Found stats for a Bio-wizard, but couldn't find the bio-wizard OCC abilities. Did they put them in a later printing?

Look under the actual description of Bio-Wizardry. I believe they are there. (tho atm, I am not sure lol)

[rat_bastard]

considering a 15th level bio wizard can turn an anthill into a army of devastating monsters...

[AzathothXy]

Where can I find OCC info on the Bio-Wizard? Until then I can't make a informed-decision.

Rifts : Atlantis. (book 1)

Found stats for a Bio-wizard, but couldn't find the bio-wizard OCC abilities. Did they put them in a later printing?

Look under the actual description of Bio-Wizardry. I believe they are there. (tho atm, I am not sure lol)

Not in my copy. Can't find even find them in the list of Magic-OCCs in GMG.

Bio-Wizard is a NPC OCC. Like the Runemaster or Tattoo Master. It isn't meant for PCs to be able to take it. So no abilities are listed, just a basic description, before it goes into bio-wizard augmentations.

[TechnoGothic]

Bio-Wizards would never Adventure for starters. They require their Bio-Wizard Vats/Tubes to do anything to anyone. Never liked them.
RuneMasters are the same way, they spend years making Rune Items. No adventuring for them they require their Rune Forge.
Tattoo Master. Umm not enough info on them really. They give people magic Tattoos. Cannot adventure much in a Tattoo Palor can you.

We have alot of info on TWs however. They can Adventure and create TW device while adventuring if need be. Good deal to me. They are not forced to same in one location for their occ to operate.

[runebeo]

15th lvl Techno-Wizard ?

15th lvl Bio-Wizard ?

Whats your idea of power ?

Which do you think, and why ?

Depends if the Techno-Wizard has resources, if he can build a large robot army and modify military vehicles I'd go with him. RIFTS HAS ALLOT MORE STUFF THAN JUST ATLANTIS. I'm not telling you how to think but try to get away from Atlantis, I got caught up in it too and the same with Pantheons of the Megaverse, their fun but they lead to power gaming and to use their power level is to make over 80% of the Rifts books useless to you as your combos outclass everything. I see you love powerful magic warriors and thats fine, where does the common o.c.c.s like City Rats, Mercs and even Scholars fit in? Expand your game to a low power level and while your characters maybe be more beatable, yet it can bring so real concern to weather your character will survive, wheres the threat or real danger in using super characters?

[Lenwen]

Bio-Wizards would never Adventure for starters. They require their Bio-Wizard Vats/Tubes to do anything to anyone. Never liked them.
RuneMasters are the same way, they spend years making Rune Items. No adventuring for them they require their Rune Forge.
Tattoo Master. Umm not enough info on them really. They give people magic Tattoos. Cannot adventure much in a Tattoo Palor can you.

We have alot of info on TWs however. They can Adventure and create TW device while adventuring if need be. Good deal to me. They are not forced to same in one location for their occ to operate.

Who is to say they could not travel with thier Bio-Vats .. and Runic Forges .. You ?

As you stated there is simply not enough information to "assume" one way or the other ..


But then again the question was not which was more mobile .. but rather .. which one commands more power ?

[Lenwen]

15th lvl Techno-Wizard ?

15th lvl Bio-Wizard ?

Whats your idea of power ?

Which do you think, and why ?

Depends if the Techno-Wizard has resources, if he can build a large robot army and modify military vehicles I'd go with him.

RIFTS HAS ALLOT MORE STUFF THAN JUST ATLANTIS.

Very well said.

I'm not telling you how to think but try to get away from Atlantis

Technically .. yes you are .. lol

I see you love powerful magic warriors and thats fine, where does the common o.c.c.s like City Rats, Mercs and even Scholars fit in? Expand your game to a low power level and while your characters maybe be more beatable, yet it can bring so real concern to weather your character will survive, wheres the threat or real danger in using super characters?

I enjoy creating new powerful mixes .. legally by the book of course. Unlike alotta GM's that I have played under, My NPC's are by the book NPC's .. my NPC's do not break rules .. Hence my questioning alotta things on the boards.

Yes I do love powerful magic warriors .. And I love it even more knowing their a legal by the book creations that could defeate many many many Coalition troops and or robots and or .. fill in the blank.

People tell me all the time that I seem like a power gamer .. Why is that because I DO .. play the game as it should be played ?

Or is it because I play the game with creations that can rather easily defeat the Villains of the Coalition ?

I wonder why people do not tell Coalition fans .. that there is more then just the Coalition .. rather like you just told me there is more then just Atlantis ?

[runebeo]

Well I consider my group a higher power level group with most characters getting extra P.P.E., I.S.P. M.D.C. and Bio-E
usually around 70 to 80% max starting perks. I know our group wields a good amount of power compared to most groups I've seen listed on here and some of your characters like your super tattoo archer could nearly slay my entire group by himself. Hey I like have powerful characters but none of our group could stand against a GB for long without help except our Glitter Girl while it would take 3 or more GBs to threaten your archer. In the past others on the boards have called me a power gamer for far less than what you come up with. Once again if this is how your group likes it keep it up but watch out it don't kill your game like our god, demi-godling and hatchling game become too powerful it become silly and so many npcs died regularly we just numbered them.

[Lenwen]

Well I consider my group a higher power level group with most characters getting extra P.P.E., I.S.P. M.D.C. and Bio-E
usually around 70 to 80% max starting perks. I know our group wields a good amount of power compared to most groups I've seen listed on here and some of your characters like your super tattoo archer could nearly slay my entire group by himself. Hey I like have powerful characters but none of our group could stand against a GB for long without help except our Glitter Girl while it would take 3 or more GBs to threaten your archer. In the past others on the boards have called me a power gamer for far less than what you come up with. Once again if this is how your group likes it keep it up but watch out it don't kill your game like our god, demi-godling and hatchling game become too powerful it become silly and so many npcs died regularly we just numbered them.

Understood.

But anyone on this site .. who calls another a power gamer .. with out they themselves accepting the very title they so righteously bestow upon others ..

Are not paying attention to what they themselves are doing .. Anyway you slice it .. Rifts is a Power gamers game ..

The setting itself dictates .. its a power game .. even that wee little lvl 1 City rat brandishing that Mega Damage pistol is a power gamer .. due to the fact that .. that single Mega Damage Pistol is the equivlent to 20th century Tanks main guns .. (I think this is even canon if I remember correctly)

So anyone who plays Rifts .. that calls some one else who plays rifts .. a power gamer .. should understand what they themselves are ..

[Ale Golem]

Who is to say they could not travel with thier Bio-Vats .. and Runic Forges .. You ?

Actually that would be history and common sense, a forge is a room sized hearth, anvil and slack tub at bare minimum along with all the excess portable equipment, metal and flammable material. Bio-Vats are...most likely pretty large themselves, when was the last time a genetics lab hit the open highway?

[TiekoSora]

Meth labs are highly flammable and explosive, and are commonly found as an easy to transport unit, in car trunks or a small trailer.

[keir451]

Well I consider my group a higher power level group with most characters getting extra P.P.E., I.S.P. M.D.C. and Bio-E
usually around 70 to 80% max starting perks. I know our group wields a good amount of power compared to most groups I've seen listed on here and some of your characters like your super tattoo archer could nearly slay my entire group by himself. Hey I like have powerful characters but none of our group could stand against a GB for long without help except our Glitter Girl while it would take 3 or more GBs to threaten your archer. In the past others on the boards have called me a power gamer for far less than what you come up with. Once again if this is how your group likes it keep it up but watch out it don't kill your game like our god, demi-godling and hatchling game become too powerful it become silly and so many npcs died regularly we just numbered them.

Understood.

But anyone on this site .. who calls another a power gamer .. with out they themselves accepting the very title they so righteously bestow upon others ..

Are not paying attention to what they themselves are doing .. Anyway you slice it .. Rifts is a Power gamers game ..

The setting itself dictates .. its a power game .. even that wee little lvl 1 City rat brandishing that Mega Damage pistol is a power gamer .. due to the fact that .. that single Mega Damage Pistol is the equivlent to 20th century Tanks main guns .. (I think this is even canon if I remember correctly)

So anyone who plays Rifts .. that calls some one else who plays rifts .. a power gamer .. should understand what they themselves are ..

Ther was another guy who did Rifts conversion for things, a Dustin M.Ramsey, who said that nothing is more powerful than the average Rifts player character (this was a joke he posted comparing Rifts PCs vs Robotech and BTS). Your style of gaming is along the "real role palyer", but the way you mix and match your magic is up there in the "OMFG How did he do that?" level.
Then there's my GM, nullforceomega, he dat one that kills all, I MEAN IT, REALLY!!! I've yet to find a way in which he doesn't wind up destroying the universe! (Seriously, I could probably give him a stick, two sticks and a rock and he'd have to share the rock, and STILL trash the ENTIRE CS Army!! ).

[barna10]

I must shoot you all down. There are not "too many factors to consider." There is only one to consider. Does the TW have an anti-magic cloud grenade ready? If so, fight over. All of the TW's devices and measily 1/2 power spells would still work while the "Greeny" wimp of a Bio-Wizard would start praying to the global warming gods that he would make his save vs. the spell and hope that some of his magic would still work. Fight over, lights out Greeny.

Or scenario 2, under "book" rules, TW pulls out a .44 and shoots bio-wizard in-between the eyes whil he spends half of his actions casting his first spell. Again, lights out for the peace-nik, anti-gun activist.

[barna10]

I must shoot you all down. There are not "too many factors to consider." There is only one to consider. Does the TW have an anti-magic cloud grenade ready? If so, fight over. All of the TW's devices and measily 1/2 power spells would still work while the "Greeny" wimp of a Bio-Wizard would start praying to the global warming gods that he would make his save vs. the spell and hope that some of his magic would still work. Fight over, lights out Greeny.

Or scenario 2, under "book" rules, TW pulls out a .44 and shoots bio-wizard in-between the eyes whil he spends half of his actions casting his first spell. Again, lights out for the peace-nik, anti-gun activist.

Um, how would an anti-magic grenade help against a bio-borg created by said-BW? A TW makes gear, a BW makes horrible monstrosities that shouldn't ever exist.
And what's this whole "Greeny wimp" and "peace-nik anti-gun activist"? Doesn't sound like a bio-wizard to me, sounds more like a bio-mancer.

My bad, I thought you guys were talking about the "actual" bio-wizard from Rifts South America. Now if you guys want to talk about the creations of Biowizardry created by the RUNE MAGES employeed by the Splugorth, start a new thread.

If that is the true debate, Splugorth Tech vs. TW, it's apples and oranges. It's like saying "who would win a fight between GM and Ford? A better arguement would be "who would win, a a bioborg or a fully decked-out TW?"

[Lenwen]

There are too many factors in the unknown...

Is the Techno-Wizard part of a corporation? (Lazo/NewLazlo/Stormspire ect.) Has he just been employed or given free reign to develop his own technologies? Did he adventure and find rare minerals/gems what with to instill power?

I can think of several things off the top of my head that will give a techno wizard an edge over a biowizard.

A device anti-magic would offer him an edge over any other caster.

I asked about individual Techno-Wizard vs individual Bio-Wizard.

No corperations to consider, they have only what they need for their crafts ..

[barna10]

There are too many factors in the unknown...

Is the Techno-Wizard part of a corporation? (Lazo/NewLazlo/Stormspire ect.) Has he just been employed or given free reign to develop his own technologies? Did he adventure and find rare minerals/gems what with to instill power?

I can think of several things off the top of my head that will give a techno wizard an edge over a biowizard.

A device anti-magic would offer him an edge over any other caster.

I asked about individual Techno-Wizard vs individual Bio-Wizard.

No corperations to consider, they have only what they need for their crafts ..

This is even better! If we are talking the "Atlantis Bio-Wizard" (which doesn't really exsist!) this is like some sort of nerd slap fight. Might as well put an engineer up against a nuclear physicist!

[Lenwen]

Bio-Wizardry is from Atlantis .. hehe

[Shark_Force]

biomancy is very specifically, clearly, and explicitly called out as being different from bio-wizardry. so far as i am concerned, it was immediately clear as soon as he asked the question what he meant.

[barna10]

biomancy is very specifically, clearly, and explicitly called out as being different from bio-wizardry. so far as i am concerned, it was immediately clear as soon as he asked the question what he meant.

Well in that case, point me to the "Biowizard O.C.C." so that we can compare. Unless there has been one published that I missed (which is possible), the stats on NPC BIOWIZARD have not been layed out.

[Shark_Force]

biomancy is very specifically, clearly, and explicitly called out as being different from bio-wizardry. so far as i am concerned, it was immediately clear as soon as he asked the question what he meant.

Well in that case, point me to the "Biowizard O.C.C." so that we can compare. Unless there has been one published that I missed (which is possible), the stats on NPC BIOWIZARD have not been layed out.

the stats on a lot of things haven't been laid out. that doesn't mean they don't exist. the bio-wizard OCC can do the list of stuff presented in the Atlantis books that are under bio-wizardry. we don't particularly need stats on the bio-wizard OCC because they're essentially a mechanism for creating bio-wizardry stuff. but if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

[barna10]

biomancy is very specifically, clearly, and explicitly called out as being different from bio-wizardry. so far as i am concerned, it was immediately clear as soon as he asked the question what he meant.

Well in that case, point me to the "Biowizard O.C.C." so that we can compare. Unless there has been one published that I missed (which is possible), the stats on NPC BIOWIZARD have not been layed out.

the stats on a lot of things haven't been laid out. that doesn't mean they don't exist. the bio-wizard OCC can do the list of stuff presented in the Atlantis books that are under bio-wizardry. we don't particularly need stats on the bio-wizard OCC because they're essentially a mechanism for creating bio-wizardry stuff. but if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

Give me a break. Anymore party-line BS you want to spill? The Biowizard has not been DEFINED, so what are any of you basing this argument on? You can't possibly be basing the power of the Biowizard on the Biowizard creations listed in Atlantis and Splynn. You might as well look at the pyramids (real ones, our world) and use those to create a "Pyramid Builder" R.C.C. of 200' giants.

[Lenwen]

if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

The stats for the Techno-Wizard Occ are in Rue .. not in Rifts Africa ..

The stats for the Bio-Wizard Occ are in Atlantis ..

You pointing to a God .. does not mean he is the "average" Techno-Wizard ..

Unless you wish to pit him against Lord Splynncryth ..

Check mate ..

Now I believe that the majority of the posters on this thread understand what I am asking .. You seem to not want to discuss this in a reasonable fashion for what ever reason ..

The question is flat out .. which can be more powerful ?

A Techno-Wizard or a Bio-Wizard creation using thier respective abilities/classes to create that which they create .

Which do you choose ?

[barna10]

if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

The stats for the Techno-Wizard Occ are in Rue .. not in Rifts Africa ..

The stats for the Bio-Wizard Occ are in Atlantis ..

You pointing to a God .. does not mean he is the "average" Techno-Wizard ..

Unless you wish to pit him against Lord Splynncryth ..

Check mate ..

Now I believe that the majority of the posters on this thread understand what I am asking .. You seem to not want to discuss this in a reasonable fashion for what ever reason ..

The question is flat out .. which can be more powerful ?

A Techno-Wizard or a Bio-Wizard creation using thier respective abilities/classes to create that which they create .

Which do you choose ?

1) Biowizard creations are in Rifts Atlantis, not the O.C.C.

2) Thoth is a GREAT OLD ONE. Bring Splyncryth on, anyday.

I was responding to the guy that told me to use a Highlord or a Splugorth as an example of a Biowizard (totally illogical idea). I responded with an equally ludicrous example of Thoth (again, A GREAT OLD ONE).

I think you need to check your Palladium knowledge before you start trying to argue with A GREAT OLD ONE.

[Lenwen]

if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

The stats for the Techno-Wizard Occ are in Rue .. not in Rifts Africa ..

The stats for the Bio-Wizard Occ are in Atlantis ..

You pointing to a God .. does not mean he is the "average" Techno-Wizard ..

Unless you wish to pit him against Lord Splynncryth ..

Check mate ..

Now I believe that the majority of the posters on this thread understand what I am asking .. You seem to not want to discuss this in a reasonable fashion for what ever reason ..

The question is flat out .. which can be more powerful ?

A Techno-Wizard or a Bio-Wizard creation using thier respective abilities/classes to create that which they create .

Which do you choose ?

1) Biowizard creations are in Rifts Atlantis, not the O.C.C.

2) Thoth is a GREAT OLD ONE. Bring Splyncryth on, anyday.

I was responding to the guy that told me to use a Highlord or a Splugorth as an example of a Biowizard (totally illogical idea). I responded with an equally ludicrous example of Thoth (again, A GREAT OLD ONE).

I think you need to check your Palladium knowledge before you start trying to argue with A GREAT OLD ONE.

Still avoiding the question huh ?

Which can create a better weapon ? (using each OCC's rules an write ups respectivly)

Bio-Wizardry .. or .. Techno-Wizardry ..?

[barna10]

if you must have an example, it's actually quite simple... just look under the high lord RCC. or the splugorth RCC. because those (or at least some of them) are bio-wizards.

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

The stats for the Techno-Wizard Occ are in Rue .. not in Rifts Africa ..

The stats for the Bio-Wizard Occ are in Atlantis ..

You pointing to a God .. does not mean he is the "average" Techno-Wizard ..

Unless you wish to pit him against Lord Splynncryth ..

Check mate ..

Now I believe that the majority of the posters on this thread understand what I am asking .. You seem to not want to discuss this in a reasonable fashion for what ever reason ..

The question is flat out .. which can be more powerful ?

A Techno-Wizard or a Bio-Wizard creation using thier respective abilities/classes to create that which they create .

Which do you choose ?

1) Biowizard creations are in Rifts Atlantis, not the O.C.C.

2) Thoth is a GREAT OLD ONE. Bring Splyncryth on, anyday.

I was responding to the guy that told me to use a Highlord or a Splugorth as an example of a Biowizard (totally illogical idea). I responded with an equally ludicrous example of Thoth (again, A GREAT OLD ONE).

I think you need to check your Palladium knowledge before you start trying to argue with A GREAT OLD ONE.

Still avoiding the question huh ?

Which can create a better weapon ? (using each OCC's rules an write ups respectivly)

Bio-Wizardry .. or .. Techno-Wizardry ..?

Well, that is a new question, isn't it. What kind of weapon are we talking, melee or ranged? TW - Battle Fury Blade blows rune weapons (book ones) out of the water. Ranged - Biowizards can't even try to compete on the same field as a 1st level TW making a TW pea-shooter.

There's your answer.

[barna10]

You also wanted to know my definition of "power." Thoth is power. Not only does he have the immense physical and magical power of a GREAT OLD ONE, he also has all of the accumulated knowledge of the cosmos at his becon call.

[Lenwen]

Well, that is a new question, isn't it. What kind of weapon are we talking, melee or ranged? TW - Battle Fury Blade blows rune weapons (book ones) out of the water.

Really ? Some Rune weapons can have Anti Magic Cloud on them .. which since in the description of the Battle fury blade does not state they are magical weapons .. means they get taken out ..

While the Rune weapon is unaffected by the spell .. and has all its powers/abilities .. means that they outclass the Battlefury blades.

Ranged - Biowizards can't even try to compete on the same field as a 1st level TW making a TW pea-shooter.

There's your answer.

Eylor Seeker-Hunter eye's have unlimited range and can be slaved off onto a Bio-creation up to at least 5 can be done like this and could have tech weapons placed upon them that have ranges of 2'000ft that does 5d6MD each. This is aside from the 18 spells programmed into it. Which can be of any spell variation there of in the books..
(each has 5 attacks with ranges of what ever spell you decide to place into it, up to 18 spells .. )

A Bio-Wizard creature could literally have 16+ attacks itself as well as 5 Eylor Hunter eyes each having 5 attacks all from the creature means 41 attacks per melee .. from 1 creature created by the Bio-Wizard.

[barna10]

Well, that is a new question, isn't it. What kind of weapon are we talking, melee or ranged? TW - Battle Fury Blade blows rune weapons (book ones) out of the water.

Really ? Some Rune weapons can have Anti Magic Cloud on them .. which since in the description of the Battle fury blade does not state they are magical weapons .. means they get taken out ..

While the Rune weapon is unaffected by the spell .. and has all its powers/abilities .. means that they outclass the Battlefury blades.

Ranged - Biowizards can't even try to compete on the same field as a 1st level TW making a TW pea-shooter.

There's your answer.

Eylor Seeker-Hunter eye's have unlimited range and can be slaved off onto a Bio-creation up to at least 5 can be done like this and could have tech weapons placed upon them that have ranges of 2'000ft that does 5d6MD each. This is aside from the 18 spells programmed into it. Which can be of any spell variation there of in the books..
(each has 5 attacks with ranges of what ever spell you decide to place into it, up to 18 spells .. )

A Bio-Wizard creature could literally have 16+ attacks itself as well as 5 Eylor Hunter eyes each having 5 attacks all from the creature means 41 attacks per melee .. from 1 creature created by the Bio-Wizard.

One problem with your "41 attacks per melee", the eyes (and Zembahk) are mindless once they are put into Biowizard devices. They cannot attack on their own.

If you want to bring anti-magic could into it, TW's also have mundane engineering skills. There's no reason they need to rely on magic. One could commandeer a battalion of skelebots, reprogram them and destroy some Bioborgs. At this point it becomes a matter of resources. Tech is much cheaper and easier to create and deploy than a Biowizard creation. The same applies to the average TW gear, it is cheaper and easier to produce than Biowizard stuff.

[barna10]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

[Lenwen]

One problem with your "41 attacks per melee", the eyes (and Zembahk) are mindless once they are put into Biowizard devices. They cannot attack on their own.

Exactly .. hence my saying they would be slaved off aka .. they would be commanded by the Bio-Wizard creature .. aka .. their attacks are now his .. their movement and everything they see are linked directly to the creature .. they have become a part of it ..

If you want to bring anti-magic could into it, TW's also have mundane engineering skills. There's no reason they need to rely on magic. One could commander a battalion of skelebots, [/quote]
Commander a Battalion of skelebots ? Thats literally impossible ..

[barna10]

One problem with your "41 attacks per melee", the eyes (and Zembahk) are mindless once they are put into Biowizard devices. They cannot attack on their own.

Exactly .. hence my saying they would be slaved off aka .. they would be commanded by the Bio-Wizard creature .. aka .. their attacks are now his .. their movement and everything they see are linked directly to the creature .. they have become a part of it ..

If you want to bring anti-magic could into it, TW's also have mundane engineering skills. There's no reason they need to rely on magic. One could commander a battalion of skelebots,

Commander a Battalion of skelebots ? Thats literally impossible ..

Your math skills are impossible... if he is controlling lets say 10 eyes of eyelor.

He has to issue a command for each of those 10 to attack. If they are operating independently of him, he doesnt have control.

So they would only attack when he issued a command, AKA each melee action of the controller. Thats like saying a starship pilot who fires a battery of 100 laser turrets 3 times per melee has 300 actions.

If you mind control someone you dont suddenly add their actions to yours... you command through them.

Well said

[barna10]

Now, if you wanted to get "41 attacks per melee", the TW would be the way to go. He could use some sort of AI to control many of his devices.

[barna10]

Completely GM dependent.[*]

Are you saying that your definition of power is a GM?

[Lenwen]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

25 of them have already been shown to you threw the Eye's of Eylor .. 5 attacks each .. 5 Eylor eyes...

16 of the Bio-Wizard creation is rather easily attained ..

+2 = Living being ..
+4 = Martial Arts H2H..
+2 = Added Human Appendages (x2)
+2 = Added None Human appendages (x2)
+2 = Retractable Mini Tenticals (x2)
+1 = Chest Amalgamate
+1 = Elom
+1 = Tail
+1 = Stinger.
16 total attacks for the creature .. And this is with out adding spell's which add even MORE attacks per melee !!

[Lenwen]

Your math skills are impossible... if he is controlling lets say 10 eyes of eyelor.

He has to issue a command for each of those 10 to attack. If they are operating independently of him, he doesnt have control.

Wrong. Do you have to issue a command to your arm to attack ?

Negative ..

THATS .. what Bio-Wizardry does ..

The Eyes are an extension of the Creature itself .. aka they are like his arms ..

[Lenwen]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

25 of them have already been shown to you threw the Eye's of Eylor .. 5 attacks each .. 5 Eylor eyes...

16 of the Bio-Wizard creation is rather easily attained ..

+2 = Living being ..
+4 = Martial Arts H2H..
+2 = Added Human Appendages (x2)
+2 = Added None Human appendages (x2)
+2 = Retractable Mini Tenticals (x2)
+1 = Chest Amalgamate
+1 = Elom
+1 = Tail
+1 = Stinger.
16 total attacks for the creature .. And this is with out adding spell's which add even MORE attacks per melee !!

Ill even give you fleet feet, 32 attacks per melee.

But thats the creature, firing 10 things all at once, 32 times. Not, 41 independent actions per melee.

AKA, basic math r hard.

Well if your kind enough to allow me Fleet feet .. I'll also take a Rune weapon with the Following spells .. (and skills)
1 - Speed Weapon .. (Bow) (Archery and Targeting)
2 - Strength of the Whale (doubles PS)
3 - Little Force (doubles incomming damage an redirects it back at the sender)


Course I wont get TOO greedy .. thats all I will use ..

[Lenwen]

you are a funny guy heir Lenwen.

But you deterred from the topic.

The topic now being, how does your bioborg, or whatever this amalgamation of insanity is, accrue 41 actions with "extensions" he commands when each command he would give would be an action spent... and the actions of said "extensions" are null and void.

The same way the Eyes of Eylor's get thier own actions based off of the Slaver Barge.

Annnnd ... Checkmate !!

And this is not even talking about the obscene amounts of MDC and magical abilities along with Psionical abilities you could literally stack onto this beasty ..

It could literally have almost all Psionic abilities as well as insanly crazy spell abilities ...

Then you equip the beasty ..

OOOHHH ..

YEAH !!

scuse me .. I seem to be drooling .. I shall be back ..

[Lenwen]

you are a funny guy heir Lenwen.

But you deterred from the topic.

The topic now being, how does your bioborg, or whatever this amalgamation of insanity is, accrue 41 actions with "extensions" he commands when each command he would give would be an action spent... and the actions of said "extensions" are null and void.

The same way the Eyes of Eylor's get thier own actions based off of the Slaver Barge.

Annnnd ... Checkmate !!

Okay, so a platoon commander with 30 first level soldiers, 5 actions per melee each, suddenly has what? 150 actions by extension because he is commanding them?

Dunno ..

I never play them filthy Villain types ..

I stay mostly within the Corporatism world of Atlantis and other Splugorthian holdings ..

[Lenwen]

Okay, so a platoon commander with 30 first level soldiers, 5 actions per melee each, suddenly has what? 150 actions by extension because he is commanding them?

But if you wish to get technical ..

Yes .. that Platoon commander basically dictates where those soldiers attack which targets to nuetralize first so on an so forth ..

So technically ..

Yes ..

[Shark_Force]

Well, in that case, let me pull out Rifts Africa and check out the stats for Thoth. He's a Techno-Wizard so I should be able to figure out the class from him. Hmmm...seems like he would beat a measily High Lord in a fight, so, case settled!

Give me a break. Anymore party-line BS you want to spill? The Biowizard has not been DEFINED, so what are any of you basing this argument on? You can't possibly be basing the power of the Biowizard on the Biowizard creations listed in Atlantis and Splynn. You might as well look at the pyramids (real ones, our world) and use those to create a "Pyramid Builder" R.C.C. of 200' giants.

except that being thoth is not the only way to be a techno-wizard.

the only (known) bio-wizards are the splugorth, and the high lords, who learn it (or possibly are granted it via witch pact, it's unclear) from the splugorth. therefore, if you want to know what a bio-wizard looks like, you go to the high lord or the splugorth class, because they're the only known bio-wizards.

[Lenwen]

Define power?

In this question Power is which class can out create the other class for pourpose of overall badass -ness ...

The average Bio-wizard is going to have the backing of an empire most likely.

I've already stated , Each will be using just what they need from thier respective classes to be able to create items/borgs ..

As is stands in game terms I guess the Bio-wizard would have more power.

There, see it was not as difficult as you had thought it would be

But then again this is a very open ended question.

Actually its not .

Take 1 Bio-Wizard ..

Take 1 Techno-Wizard ..

Now see which of them commands more overall power .. total.

[Lenwen]

There is just not enough information on Bio-wizards to make a truly informed decision. The slime vat seems to the catch all at this point for any holes in the Bio-wizard write up.

The Slime Vat is one of the tools of the Bio-Wizard. Just as the tools are the tools (lmao) of the Techno-Wizard.

Do you not agree ?

[barna10]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

25 of them have already been shown to you threw the Eye's of Eylor .. 5 attacks each .. 5 Eylor eyes...

16 of the Bio-Wizard creation is rather easily attained ..

+2 = Living being ..
+4 = Martial Arts H2H..
+2 = Added Human Appendages (x2)
+2 = Added None Human appendages (x2)
+2 = Retractable Mini Tenticals (x2)
+1 = Chest Amalgamate
+1 = Elom
+1 = Tail
+1 = Stinger.
16 total attacks for the creature .. And this is with out adding spell's which add even MORE attacks per melee !!

First, retractable mini-tenatacles: can only have one set of 8 that gives +1 attacke per melee (Atlantis pg. 110)

Second, the total cost of JUST THESE enhancements (adjusted for ONE set of Retractable mini-tentacles) is 64,000,000 credits.

Now, A Techno-Wizard, in Power armor (mundane or TW) with H-H Assassin and Robot Combat Elite gets 13 attacks per melee at 15th level. This is without ANY SPECIAL ENHANCEMENTS. Let's say Samson Power Armor (950,000 credits). So, for the 64,000,000 credits it took to make this 18 limbed thing with hardly any fire power, I can field 67 fully armed Techo-Wizards in brand new shiny Samson Power armor that each get 13 attacks per melee (that's 871 attacks per melee for anyone that's interested).

Let's even make this more realistic. Let's say we couldn't find 67 15th level TW's just sittin around so we head to TW High School and find 67 1st level dudes. They would still have 335 attacks per melee. Much more bang for the buck.

Remember, this is all without any TW enhancements. The important thing to remember is that resources and tactics when wars, not the best equipment. Fielding 67 times the troops for the same cost would win just about any war.

Oh, yeah, CHECKMATE (man I feel like a nerd).

P.S. That is one wimpy 64,000,000 credit bioborg. He doesn't even have supernatural strength! Now if you add weapons to the freak, I would add enhancements to the power armor that would more than compensate for the advantage gained (multiplied by 67!).

[barna10]

Now for the battle between the "freak" and the brigade of Samson power armor.

Round one)

Freak gets initiative and zaps out at ONE of the power armored troopers instead of closing the distance. He does an Elom blast and ....MAX DAMAGE, 36 MD, reducing the poor guy's armor from 240 M.D.C. to 204 M.D.C.

Then the TW's go. 67 mini-missle volleys later, the "freak" is ash. At average damage, the "freak" took 6700 MD from high-explosive mini missles.

Fun.

[Mercdog]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

25 of them have already been shown to you threw the Eye's of Eylor .. 5 attacks each .. 5 Eylor eyes...

16 of the Bio-Wizard creation is rather easily attained ..

+2 = Living being ..
+4 = Martial Arts H2H..
+2 = Added Human Appendages (x2)
+2 = Added None Human appendages (x2)
+2 = Retractable Mini Tenticals (x2)
+1 = Chest Amalgamate
+1 = Elom
+1 = Tail
+1 = Stinger.
16 total attacks for the creature .. And this is with out adding spell's which add even MORE attacks per melee !!

Assuming that you've figured this for a 1st level character, aren't the "2 Attacks for Living" now fully incorporated into the Hand to Hand skills?

I don't have the books to check with me, but I'm pretty sure when the H2H attacks per melee were upped, KS had written that you were not supposed to add the old "2 attacks for Living" any longer.

Just an observation. Carry on.

[barna10]

The other item you have to consider about your "41 attacks per melee" idea is if it was possible, the Splugorth would have exploited the idea already. Show me one R.C.C., O.C.C., or NPC that has anything near 41 attacks per melee (or even the 16 of the borg you mentioned).

25 of them have already been shown to you threw the Eye's of Eylor .. 5 attacks each .. 5 Eylor eyes...

16 of the Bio-Wizard creation is rather easily attained ..

+2 = Living being ..
+4 = Martial Arts H2H..
+2 = Added Human Appendages (x2)
+2 = Added None Human appendages (x2)
+2 = Retractable Mini Tenticals (x2)
+1 = Chest Amalgamate
+1 = Elom
+1 = Tail
+1 = Stinger.
16 total attacks for the creature .. And this is with out adding spell's which add even MORE attacks per melee !!

Assuming that you've figured this for a 1st level character, aren't the "2 Attacks for Living" now fully incorporated into the Hand to Hand skills?

I don't have the books to check with me, but I'm pretty sure when the H2H attacks per melee were upped, KS had written that you were not supposed to add the old "2 attacks for Living" any longer.

Just an observation. Carry on.

True, I was thinking he was accounting for 15th level skill (that would be 7 attacks).