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Wraith454 wrote:A buddy of mine is running a (slightly modified) HU2 campaign, and the party members are involved in the Bloody Monday raid. He's trying to figure out what the damage is for a nuke though. After looking in various books, I noticed the damage and blast radii listed didn't seem to really match the reality. So please help? House rules, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated on what would be a good representation of a nuclear explosion.

If you have access to CS Navy for Rifts they have rules for more traditional Nukes with radiation and fallout etc.

The actual damage for a nuke? Depends on the tonnage, but for a 100 kiloton thermonuclear warhead, the total blast radius is out to 17.68 miles. This means that everything within about 18 miles of the epicenter is going to take some damage. This doesn't seem like a whole lot, but if you figure that the distance from Soho (in NYC) to Jersey City is roughly 17 miles, you can start to see how far out this is going to effect things.

Now, depending on the overpressure exerted by the blast, different effects are going to happen:

1. The epicenter has no psi rating. Everything at the epicenter out to .25 miles is disintegrated.
2. 15 psi, out to .7 miles. Complete destruction of reinforced concrete structures, such as skyscrapers, will occur within this ring. Between 7 psi and 15 psi, there will be severe to total damage to these types of structures.
3. 5 psi, out to 1.3 miles. Complete destruction of ordinary houses, and moderate to severe damage to reinforced concrete structures, will occur within this ring.
4. 2 psi, out to 2.28 miles. Severe damage to ordinary houses, and light to moderate damage to reinforced concrete structures, will occur within this ring.
5. 1 psi, out to 3.37 miles. Light damage to all structures, and light to moderate damage to ordinary houses, will occur within this ring.
6. .25 psi, out to 8.63 miles. Most glass surfaces, such as windows, will shatter within this ring, some with enough force to cause injury.
7. .1 psi, out to 17.68 miles. Some light damage to glass surfaces, but not enough force to shatter. Any shattered glass will not shatter with enough force to cause damage.

Now, try to keep in mind that this is the blast effect only. This doesn't take into account the fire or wind velocity damage caused by the explosion. This also doesn't account for the subsequent earthquake and major aftershocks caused by the explosion, or the debris thrown in all directions. It also doesn't say anything about fallout or radiation poisoning. There are so many other things that you need to account for when dealing with a nuclear explosion.

To put this into game terms is going to be tough. You could always try to look at the powers in the books and try to figure out what may be applicable (control radiation will get you started with radiation sickness at the very least).

Nuke damage is.. 'Total' Roll a new char.

yeah.... nukes don't need to have rules in a roleplaying game, even one with superheroes. they should be a plot device only without any attached mechanics for surviving close up. if characters are close to the blast (close being relative to the tonnage of the bomb), they die (regardless of intangibility or invulnerability). if not, they suffer from radiation poisoning in addition to some explosive damage of your choice (with the ability to ignore this part(s) due to superpowers and such). some things are just better left to imagination. in shadowrun, there is an effectively immortal elf NPC character that the company refused to stat in their 2nd edition fasa days. they simply said he has sufficient power/experience/knowledge/prep to escape/elude/survive anything the players can think of. witnessing a nuclear blast at close range should be the same thing; you don't survive.. period. in the recent JLA dvd cartoon (yay for red box $1 rentals!), the superfriends were basically evil and running a JLA-mob in an alternate universe and the only thing stopping them (including evil-superman) from actually taking over the whole world was the threat of being nuked.

Wraith454 wrote:That's pretty much what I told him when he first asked, but we have a "player" who, if his pc was caught in the blast, would attempt to "explain" why his character wouldn't be killed by said blast. So he asked me to help him find info to be able to shut the munchkin up.

Here's the answer I'd give the munchkin player up: "You die because it's a nuclear warhead and I'm the GM, and as GM I rule that everything in the blast radius is destroyed. Period. End of Story."

Rhomphaia wrote:The Multiple Lives ones doesn't need any penalties or such. The character loses one of their lives (possibly more if they succumb to the radiation and such). However, they are likely to survive unless completely incinerated.

Invulnerability is likely to allow a character to survive. However, I would use the table from APS: Fire for the super-nova use to determine the exact effect on the character's survival and status of the power (meaning they could die from the blast or possibly lose the power of Invulnerability).

One could argue that powers like Sonic Speed or Flight, APS: Fire or Plasma, Intangibility and a select few others might be used to escape/survive a blast, but the liklihood of survival drops considerably in my opinion.

Characters with this power would only loose one life, even if they're completely incinerated. Their body will reform somewhere that's safe for them to live in.

Invulnerability would allow the PC to survive, as would Hyperdensity. Intangibility and Vibration might allow the PC to escape the blast (if they got far enough underground), but the radiation would get to them. I don't see any other powers helping the characters survive the blast.

There was a web site that showed the effects of three different types of blasts over whatever zip code you typed in. The blasts consisted of a ground-level Hiroshima-sized blast (the site claimed this was most likely what a terror attack using a nuke would look like) , the same blast in the air, and a 25mt air-blast. All had a 100% death rate at ground-zero.

And if the last Indiana Jones movie is any indication, you could always create the new Major ability Alter Physical Structure: Refrigerator.

One must also consider this.

The Bloody Monday A-Bomb was not of the city flatening variety. It wasn't even on par with Fat man& Little boy, Both of which would have probably leveled the entire city. I would definately consider this device a Mega Damage Weapon. Use the MDC value given in Rifts CB1 to the Invulernable character and give the device a damage rating of the Tomahawk in CS navy. If you roll over the MDC rating of the CB1 power then the PC is dead. The Invulnerable character should not be instantly killed just because the GM says so. There should be a chance of survival. Plus there are certain power combo's that would make a character immune/impervious to the Ground Zero Blast of a Low Yeld nuclear weapon. The Bloody Monday bomb would definately be a Low Yeld device. Now a High Yeld Modern Military grade Thermo Nuclear device is another story entirely. In an HU enviornment there would be ZERO chance of survival from a High Yield device and nothing left but a smoking crater.

I see to recall that the Nuke used in the Bloody Monday riots was some sort of advanced "clean" nuke - hence the lack of radiation problems afterwords. Could be completely off - it's been years since I looked at it, and even then, only in passing. I'll take a look when I get home, but it might be possible.

I know I'm like ten years late to this discussion. I'm surprised at how many people feel a nuke is unsurvivable in a setting like HU or Rifts.

The entry for Invulnerability directly addresses this: "Certain extreme situations like ground zero at a nuclear explosion or Super Nova, and fiery reentry into an atmosphere from space, might hurt or even kill the character (G.M.'s call). However, most crashes, explosions, coll isions with vehicles, and free falls from 30,000 feet (91 44 m) will not harm the character."

Consider, what if the character also has other powers, like Invulnerability to Poisons & Toxins, Indestructible Bones, or Impact Resistance? Or Super Regeneration, Energy Absorption, or Massive Damage Capacity? Control Radiation? This isn't even considering avoidance strategy powers or APS.

Heroes Unlimited is "comic books the RPG." A number of characters in a variety of comics have survived a nuclear detonation for a number of reasons. In a game like HU, I feel like a GM hand-waving, "you got nuked, you die, period, end of discussion" is lazy and uncreative. Palladium systems have never been about balance. They're narrative focused. Having a character in HU capable of surviving a nuke isn't a munchkin move, necessarily. It's a potential plot point. Even a wildly imbalanced party is a potential plot point. It's just about what kind of story you're telling and playing.

Hulk and Hawkeye are both on the same team at the same time. Hulk can survive a nuclear bomb to the face. Clearly Hawkeye can't. So, what if one of your players can survive a nuclear detonation? Can they get out of the rubble? Can they help anyone? Can they heal anyone? Can they deal with the emotional impact of surviving when their friends didn't?

Anyway, if anyone is looking for a nuke stats for Rifts, SB4: Coalition Navy has some on page 46.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Nuke damage is.. 'Total' Roll a new char.

This.

Doorface wrote:I know I'm like ten years late to this discussion. I'm surprised at how many people feel a nuke is unsurvivable in a setting like HU or Rifts.

The entry for Invulnerability directly addresses this: "Certain extreme situations like ground zero at a nuclear explosion or Super Nova, and fiery reentry into an atmosphere from space, might hurt or even kill the character (G.M.'s call). However, most crashes, explosions, coll isions with vehicles, and free falls from 30,000 feet (91 44 m) will not harm the character."

Consider, what if the character also has other powers, like Invulnerability to Poisons & Toxins, Indestructible Bones, or Impact Resistance? Or Super Regeneration, Energy Absorption, or Massive Damage Capacity? Control Radiation? This isn't even considering avoidance strategy powers or APS.

Heroes Unlimited is "comic books the RPG." A number of characters in a variety of comics have survived a nuclear detonation for a number of reasons. In a game like HU, I feel like a GM hand-waving, "you got nuked, you die, period, end of discussion" is lazy and uncreative. Palladium systems have never been about balance. They're narrative focused. Having a character in HU capable of surviving a nuke isn't a munchkin move, necessarily. It's a potential plot point. Even a wildly imbalanced party is a potential plot point. It's just about what kind of story you're telling and playing.

Hulk and Hawkeye are both on the same team at the same time. Hulk can survive a nuclear bomb to the face. Clearly Hawkeye can't. So, what if one of your players can survive a nuclear detonation? Can they get out of the rubble? Can they help anyone? Can they heal anyone? Can they deal with the emotional impact of surviving when their friends didn't?

Anyway, if anyone is looking for a nuke stats for Rifts, SB4: Coalition Navy has some on page 46.

HU is NOT "Super Heroes, the RPG" without Massive overhauling - It's more like "Street Sweepers: The Punishing". Look what happened when a certain writer with the initials BC wrote the two greatest books for this line in an effort to make it more of a REAL super hero RPG- he had to "break Kev's rules" for the game left, right and centre to even approximate and while the books were (and remain) amazing, they are still far short of anything like a super hero game unless you want to play Spider Man and his Gritty Street-Level Friends the RPG.

You cant properly make spiderman either....or batman.

Just poor facsimiles.
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jaymz wrote:You cant properly make spiderman either....or batman.

Just poor facsimiles.
.

Well, you could SORTA make Spidey- Superhuman PS of like 70, Extraordinary PP, Healing Factor (They have often mentioned in comics how much quicker he recovers when he has his powers), Danger Sense, Adhesion - hell I guess AA:Arachnid to save on power slots, plus a power gadget for his webs and other devices- hell, he'd be an Analytical Genius as well, wouldn't he? Low level Natural AR and durability (Maybe Extra PE?)- damn, that's a lot but I think he COULD be made with severe rules bending that would make Stu Hart proud...

jaymz wrote:You cant properly make spiderman either....or batman.

Just poor facsimiles.
.

Also, the argument is easily made that comics over the last 50-70 years have only been able to re-create poor facsimiles of those two characters, let alone the REALLY big power and problematic characters...

fbdaury wrote:

jaymz wrote:You cant properly make spiderman either....or batman.

Just poor facsimiles.
.

Also, the argument is easily made that comics over the last 50-70 years have only been able to re-create poor facsimiles of those two characters, let alone the REALLY big power and problematic characters...

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If the """"nuclear"""" missile has a specific damage list with it, like those in the missile chart, then they are not even KT range warheads. And only do the listed damage. The 'nuclear' name in this case is only fluff and can be taken to mean the best warhead the PCs can get their hands on, but isn't 'reeeeeealllyyyyy' nuclear.

Or you can take them to mean a (laser/gravity/'whatever but not fission induced') induced fusion warheads that can be scaled down into the 'regular warhead' sized regions. Sort of like the 'fusion blocks' that were introduced in the Mechinoids books.

Post Script Edit: 3MT Contact Warhead: 8d6x30,000 S.D. & Promp Radiation Damage (approximately)

Im with the "you die" crowd.

Just that.

You die.

The only possible ways to survive are Multiple Lives (your "spirit" form can probably move out of the fallout zone before you 'come back to life') - in which case you didn't really survive, but were, in fact, blown to smithereens... and possibly - if the GM is feeling generous, i'd say a COMBO of Invulnerability and Radiation Control (the super-nasty radioactive affects that might kill even an Invulnerable character are mitigated by Radiation Control) might let you live - maybe.

Otherwise.. history.

Or you have a power that lets you get out in time to not die. But that again isnt "i survived a nuke to the face" - thats "i got out just in time".

Nuke damage in HU should work like Nuke Damage in Comics.

Damage is only attenuated by Plot Armor.