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Re: Problem Players
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:50 am
by Nekira Sudacne
1. Abberent Mystic Knights are not this way because it's contrary to their alignment. They will murder, but only if it's part of "the job". The player was playing Diabolic and pretending otherwise.
2. This is fully supported by the rules. Clever (but futile) idea is worth 25 XP.
3. using or not using mind block isn't really the type of thing that is considered playing in character. especially sinse mind block prevents you from using other psionics, not using it is more in the nature of a tactical decision: i.e. is the defence worth risking not being able to use my own psionics.
4. This is patently false. They can psipon PPE from LEY LINES and prevent other mages from using it. Under no circumstances whatsoever can they absorb PPE being used by individual spellcasters out of their own reserves.
5. An evil PC using an NPC to get back at someone who wronged them is playing in character.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:57 am
by Scott Gibbons
Braska wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:5. An evil PC using an NPC to get back at someone who wronged them is playing in character.
I think it was misinterpreded, the player got upset when I used the powers of a MM the same way he had done in previous games, and fought tooth and nail for the use.
I say you did the right thing with the MM. I've been playing with many of the same players for the past ten years, and they've learned that if I allow something for a PC, at some point it's going to show up as a NPC doing it. That's the way life is, the bad guys learn from what the good guys do, the good guys learn from what the bad guys do. It's a Darwinian-type thing. Happens in real life between police and crooks all the time.
Was your player at least civil in his protests? I don't mean passionless/vanilla-flavored (spirited arguments can be good things, especially if it lights a fire under people's butts). What I mean was did he keep things "professional" or was he more of a cry-baby about it? If the latter, I'd seriously think over talking with all of your players as a group (so he doesn't feel singled out too much) about player etiquette when it comes to protesting GM rulings.
As for the rest of it, I agree with Nekira, except that I would have ruled that he couldn't snap the MM's neck like he said he did since he was under a psionic suggestion at the time and wouldn't have felt like taking the MM out. In fact, if he protested that ruling too much, I personally would have slapped him with a little experience point fine for playing out of character; nothing much, just 25 point or so, just enough to let him know that I wasn't going to put up with his crap. In my experience using little fines/punishments like that stops problems from growing really quick. Just do it with a wicked smirk and a knowing look toward the other players when you give it, as this will make it amusing to them and get them on your side.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:00 pm
by Shorty Lickens
Wow!
I have heard many stories of players not being nice, but its never been a real issue in my group. Certainly not something I have had to be a hardass about. I always wondered why folks would bother coming to a gaming session if they were just going to be unpleasant. It doesnt make a whole lot of sense.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:04 am
by Dog_O_War
Braska wrote:How do you handle a player where upon ending the gaming session makes countless arguments against the GM story/exp rewards?
Any advice????
Stop rewarding that player. Any argument that player has isn't good enough when it comes to story rewards. Either they bite your hooks (and thus get story exp) or forge their own path and reap that kind of reward. Either he'll leave (the big baby), or he'll conform. Remember being a GM is akin to being a tyrant; you set the rules, the pace of game, etc... So either players fall in-line or become victims in your path of domination. Just don't get too tyrannical though; a tyrant who's mucho-harsh will find his subjects in revolt.
I deleted "rulings" because I think you need to set a standard of play before "dealing" with a player that questions you on rules interpretations.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:00 pm
by Shorty Lickens
Dog_O_War wrote:Braska wrote:How do you handle a player where upon ending the gaming session makes countless arguments against the GM story/exp rewards?
Any advice????
Stop rewarding that player. Any argument that player has isn't good enough when it comes to story rewards. Either they bite your hooks (and thus get story exp) or forge their own path and reap that kind of reward. Either he'll leave (the big baby), or he'll conform. Remember being a GM is akin to being a tyrant; you set the rules, the pace of game, etc... So either players fall in-line or become victims in your path of domination. Just don't get too tyrannical though; a tyrant who's mucho-harsh will find his subjects in revolt.
I deleted "rulings" because I think you need to set a standard of play before "dealing" with a player that questions you on rules interpretations.
Yeah I would think that setting up the framework for everyones role playing style well in advance of the first session would help avoid a LOT of issues. Everybody needs to be on the same page and have the same expectations. That could be the issue right there. Maybe the guy isnt trying to be a pain, maybe he just sees your gaming sessions a little differently than everyone else.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:04 am
by Dog_O_War
Rhomphaia wrote:Most of the problem players act the way they do in spite of "ground rules" laid down beforehand. It's what makes them problem players. It's a dominance issue.
So we must lump everyone then into the category of "most"?
The solution presented to the OP was in the scenario of a problem-player who wasn't like the majority.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:29 pm
by Dog_O_War
Rhomphaia wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Rhomphaia wrote:Most of the problem players act the way they do in spite of "ground rules" laid down beforehand. It's what makes them problem players. It's a dominance issue.
So we must lump everyone then into the category of "most"?
The solution presented to the OP was in the scenario of a problem-player who wasn't like the majority.
Actually, the OP's problem sounds exactly like a dominance issue.
*
facepalm*
Regardless of how the OPs' problem sounds, it might very well be a simple miscommunication between GM and player. We won't know otherwise until the OP states how it is or we join the OPs' game.
As previously stated, the advice was incase of that rare scenario.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:08 pm
by Goliath Strongarm
Braska wrote:Ok, here is the senario
My player group consists of 3 humans: Psi-Tech, Mind Melter, and Battle Magus and a Septumbran Witchwolf Mystic Knight all first lvl. All players were playing aberrant or miscreant alignments. The player of MK only used it because he had made the argument at the beginning of the game that between the other 3 characters it wouldn't be over powered. Yet... when it came right down to it, the group was unbalanced.
The party had hired a shifter and had been looking throughout the magic zone for the fabled city when they were waylayed by ley line storms. They found the cause of the storms to be a large group of mages opening many portals to different dimensions simply exploring. This senario was ment to be helpful yet the players opened fire on the mages, which was not unreasonable. Then after they incapacitated the group and round them up into a group for interrogations, the MK dumped gas all over the mages (who had previously cast anti-magic cloud, which was still active, when they realized the attackers were using magic) and preceded to try to light them on fire. This was foiled by the 8th lvl Mind Melter which had been with the mages. (For those of you whom had read my post about TK (super) and lifting people, the MK is the player of the MM who abuses this power, you know where this is going) The MM NPC used TK(Super) to his advantage and began halting all hostile actions being taken against his mage friends and told the party nicely to leave. When the party was distracted my mages, one way or another, began teleporting/phasing/shifting away, which left only the MM. The MM then used Empathic Transmission : Trust on the MK whom failed the save. The player then played it cool until he "outwitted" or in my eyes played out of character and "got friendly, and patted the MM on the shoulder, then broke his neck". That was the end of the session... Which leads me to my question.
How do you handle a player where upon ending the gaming session makes countless arguments against the GM rulings/story/exp rewards?
Some of his arguments are as follows,
1. MK are dispicable and will kill anyone and everything in their paths
2. Deductive reasoning should be rewarded even if your wrong
3. By not using mind block (was not explicitly said, so how was I suppoed to know) he should have received a playing in character bonus
4. MK's can syphon PPE from casters as they complete and invocation, but a 1st lvl MK in my eyes can't stop 11 mages at the same time.
5. Using a MM NPC to get back at him.
there were more, but those stick out in my head right now.
Any advice????
1) Regardless of what he wants to say the CLASS is, he needs to play by his ALIGNMENT
2) GMs perogative. And if he wants to argue it, start deducting points. Ask him "do you think 500 points is deducting enough? cause thats what you can remove from your character"
3) was it mind block, or mind block auto-defense? two different powers...
4) I don't know that class specifically, but, regardless- not 11 at once. However, to prevent that person who MUST argue- give him a chance. Each target beyond the first requires a roll on a d20, with a base difficulty of 10, +1 for first additional target, +2 for second, +3 for third, and so on. I'd even allow his ME bonus to apply to his roll. That way, he has "a chance", and he can't gripe too much.
5) If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. We used to see a LOT of this waaaay back in the day with called shots. For a while, players were doing nothing BUT called shots.. until suddenly, the NPCs were doing nothing but called shots. When people started getting hit in the eyes and face, but never the body... suddenly, called shots weren't used as often. I'd KEEP doing it to the player, until they got the clue.
Basically, what *I* see as the biggest problem- not reminding the player who's GM.
But then, Im an *beeeeeep* as a GM
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:58 am
by Severus Snape
After reading the topic, I have to throw in my 2 gold pieces on this.
It is rare when I come across a person who is a problem player. I've encountered them, sure. But the group I normally would play with is pretty fair and honest when playing, and we rarely have major arguments or have that one player who thinks everything should fall his or her way.
However, I have found that there are a few ways to deal with said types of players when the situation arises that will (eventually) teach them that they are there to have fun, not argue with the GM and disrupt the game:
1. If it's a blatant misuse of power (as in the case of the MM), I simply state as much and don't let them do it.
2. If they insist on using a power in a way that it isn't designed to be used, I remind them that if they can do it, then so can NPCs. And they aren't allowed to argue about getting hit with it when it does (not may) happen to them.
3. I hate being the mean GM, but some PCs deserve to die. Horribly. You want to be a dork and keep arguing with me and telling me that I'm not reading the rules right? Fine. You're assaulted by 10,000 angry Holy Terrors who pop up out of the rift that YOU just argued for 30 minutes that your 1st level Veritech Pilot should be able to create.
4. I'm the GM, and I said so. I hate pulling that card out, but it happens. Players hate to hear it, and they usually know when they hear it that you aren't taking any more of their idiotic crap.
5. If they want to be hopelessly stupid and argumentative and be a problem player, then they can find a new group to play with. I've only ever had to toss one person out of a group (my brother, who was playing a lawful neutral thief, for stabbing a 1st level mage who was out of spells to death over who got to keep the 3 silver pieces found in the room), and I don't game with him anymore. I am there to have fun and to tell a story, and I don't have time to continue to argue with the same person over and over again. Sorry, but if you can't learn to play nice, then you'll have to learn to play with another group.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:50 pm
by kogwar
Just lay down th elaw but not in a jerk way and give him a reason that did nto work so in the case fo him breakign the mms neck though i have no idea how he did that say that the mm was palnning on him doingthat ofr for the heck of it say he bent over just as he did that to tie his shoes I like ot do stuff liek that.
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:26 pm
by Johnathan
I, actually, ended up playing a character-type which you seem to be having your troubles with. He was originally an anarchist alignment, yet his actions quickly dropped him down to Diabolical (He ended up being one of those Joker-Type characters, which was not how I had built him... but how he ended up being played). And he was also at odds with nearly the entirity of the PC's and NPC's (save for a small percentage). Eventually, he was "given up".
The GM, despite enjoying how insanely twisted my character was, deemed him "too evil" and offered me an out. One which I graciously accepted. Playing the character was FUN, but he was ultimately an experiment for me that I deemed both a success and a failure. He was a success in the regards that I had managed to create a truly evil character and role play him VERY well. He was a failure because I played him a little TOO well.
Ultimately he became one of the groups major NPC Villians bent on, get this, destroying all insect life on the planet (due to a phobia over insects and insect-like lifeforms) but then destroying basically the entire eco-system of the world... Yeah. Wierd.
But perhaps you might wanna discuss the characters progress with the player and discuss more... reasonable solutions. If they don't much care for you solution... present them with an ultimatum. Give up your character and try something different or your character is going to get himself killed.
It's not a threat, it's just a way of saying "Hey man, take a step back and look. You can't beat them all!" If your player still doesn't seem to get it... present them with something they just CAN'T win against, Dragons metamorphed is a classic one. Looks like an old human, acts like an old human, aura reads aged human with some minor psionics and PPE. Might be a mystic of some kind... in reality... An adult Great Horned Dragon with enough power to sneeze and "accidently" kill your Mystic Knight... Ooops?
Re: Problem Players
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:32 pm
by kogwar
Yep I love the" Oh you are pickign on an old defencless guy well turns out he is mickey mouse...s til not scared turns out mickey mouse is a greater deamon.".
I have had to sugest alignment changes in my group of good/ selfish where my friend the mm whho always plays evil chari's was diabolicl i asked him to change it to Malingent.