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Howdy, folks. I've done about 2 or 3 setups for a crossover campaign. I've got the bases, the orders, the interesting NPC's...Here's my problem though...I can never think of a way to get them brought over to Rifts Earth...It just seems to cliche for a set of like...3 or 4 Ikazuchi Command Carriers while on a patrol or doing a space fold just dissapear and crash on Rifts Earth. I'd like to see something that would just be absoluely epic.
So let me know what you guys would suggest to get 3 or 4 ICC's to end up on Rifts Earth, somewhere in what is today Western ND and want to stay (or are unable to leave). It would be a typical REF task force augmented by some Zentraedi (micronized with capabilities for making them full sized) and some RDF Mecha.

Perhaps they encounter a Space hive that has its own genesis pit and something goes horribly wrong during the assault? This causes a Rift to open thus transporting them all to Earth, all systems down all ship crash throught he debris field and hit the earth where ever yo want it too including hte invid space hive...one hte remaining invid are dealt with then you need to regroup rebuild and figure out what to do.

EDIT - this could also allow you to place the ships in different locations on teh earth as well....expandinght einfluence of the robtech forces and/or invid

EDIT 2 - Maybe one of the ships even manages to stay in orbit and joins with an orbital colony from Mutants in orbit...

You could also have some sort of Space Fold anamoly happen and have them get sent to Rifts Earth instead.

They could always be on a patrol in the Bermuda Triangle...

Either of those ideas would be great.

Quick related question:
How would the Coalition react to a large force of REF troops and mechs suddenly appearing on earth?

Quick question to your question: How would the REF/RDF/Southern Cross React to the CS?

Sureshot wrote:You could also have some sort of Space Fold anamoly happen and have them get sent to Rifts Earth instead.

I am pretty sure he didn;t want to use that cliche so to speak...

Aaryq wrote:Quick question to your question: How would the REF/RDF/Southern Cross React to the CS?

I think the REF would be somewhat sympathetic to the CS, seeing as there world has been destroyed by alien agression, but would probably take in any D-Bee who was willing to live in peace and protect them from the CS. The CS would not be happy, and eventually the two would come to blows. I predict a few terrible CS defeats do to underestimation of the mmobile infintry on motorcycles. THen the CS would adapt and things would get a lot more interesting.

Since the Retcon of the REF into the UEEF the Robotech forces stack up pretty well against the post CWC Coalition. If the CS could not come to some sort of agreement with the Robotech forces it could be a really nasty war. However, the Robotech forces would eventually run out of Protoculture and then it would be over.

RDF and REF are both very friendly toward non-human friendly aliens they would not side with the CS. The SC on the other hand at least when ran by Lenard is very zenophobic and wouldn't even trust friendly aliens.

They could be attacked by an unknown alien enemy (Splugorth), who use some sort of strange unknown energy (magic) to capture them and their mechs and ship them to Splynn, in Atlantis to sell as slaves along with their exotic mechs. Now they have to escape their captors before they are forced to have Mind Slugs implanted and get to their mechs to escape.

Perhaps a situation arises where the ship is exploding, crashing on a planet or diving into the sun (or something else suitably deadly which will result in everyone dying). Everyone (or almost everyone) whites out/blacks out from the event, which they expect is killing them, and then without warning or explanation they find themselves in the Rifts setting. This also gets to raise some existential questions - did they all die, and this is the afterlife (or specifically, hell)? Some kind of mass delusion in the instants before death? Is there even a way they could get back, and if they did, would it be only to truly die in the event they were trapped in?

Another thought: The Invid are capable of teleportation. Perhaps Robotech scientists are experimenting with a way to mimic that ability through robotechnology and whoops! They accidentally the whole ship!

I have used the following two scenario's for one or two character transports and not large ones to Rifts Earth. I find that if you bring too much Robotech, it becomes a huge world based problem (unless your into Nation Building).

Scenario 1: While attacking a Haydonite ship, the use of a Synchro Cannon equipped Beta overloads propelling a character in the Alpha into another dimension. This leaves you as the GM to let the player keep the Alpha or not. Salvage the Protoculture and the Cyclone.

Scenario 2: Battle of Reflex Point. The characters are in the last battle, when the Regis takes flight, converting all the Hives and Invid into energy. This conversion splits the space time continuum and sends the characters into Rifts Earth. Any type of Mecha could be transported across.

My biggest problem is trying to figure out how to keep a stable fuel source. There are several options in how I see it. One option probably can be used fairly effectively if SLMH and Protoculture can be used like Flex-Fuel in the RT:TSC mecha. Just adjust SLMH powered vehicles to about 1/2 or 1/4 of a standard Protoculture powered vehicle.

The other option is if you see that the Protoculture canister is basically an oversized battery, you can always just Techno-Wizard that part of the vehicle. This could be charged by sitting on a ley line and/or nexus.

I likes me some TW-Veritech fighter.

grandmaster z0b wrote:They could be attacked by an unknown alien enemy (Splugorth), who use some sort of strange unknown energy (magic) to capture them and their mechs and ship them to Splynn, in Atlantis to sell as slaves along with their exotic mechs. Now they have to escape their captors before they are forced to have Mind Slugs implanted and get to their mechs to escape.

But the SDF-1 or 2 is already in Atlantis the picture says so... Oh wait I forgot pictures are never canon

If you go by the first edition RT where "End of the Circle" would be canon then the collective mind of the Flower of Life (FoL), that the Regis and Haydon were both trying to aquire to evolve to the next level and become gods, instead decided to move and take a few people with it. So the FoL moved itself as a whole to Rifts. The books said that the FoL can't grow within so much distance of leylines but it was wrong. It was just aclimating to the environment. Now there is your average FoL and a mutant variant that thrives in and near leylines it absorbs PPE and acts as a PPE battery capable of storing x amount of PPE based on protoculture power plant size but it also has an "ego", like Rune weapons, of 14 and if the pilot fails the protoculture controls the pilot. Currently the FoL uses the people it overcomes to defend itself it has also started to show some individualism between plants with varying perceived alignments. The more "selfish" and "evil" aligned plants selling or giving away protoculture power plants, seeds and protoculture cells to various adventurers and corporations. Demonstrating it's superiority over the common fusion cell. Of course it is doing this to try to take over more pilots.

I've done this one a couple of times and I've found that dropping them too close to the CS gets them killed. I put them further away, like West Coast further away.
Here's why; the CS has the radar capabilities to pick the ships up if they come in through the atmosphere (not to mention visual detection). Any of the other city states in the Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada region would spot them as well.
2) Despite the crew complements of 4 Ikazuchis they don't have the same level of manpower to be able hold off the CS military for very long(a period of days to maybe a month), not to mention the facilities needed to repair the ships and repair and maintain or even reproduce their equipment effectively. This also doesn't take into account how many people die in the crash landing. They've enough people to make a fighting retreat, and the CS now gets space ships they can dismantle and retrofit to their purposes.
3) Were will they get more Protoculture and missiles for their (the REF) mecha and equipment? How are they going to acquire it? Where will they ship it to w/out alerting the CS or other groups?
4) CS Operator/Psi-tech w/ telemechanics, object read and Total Recall now knows EVERYTHING about the set up of the REF tech, how it's built, what systems there are, what they do and how they operate. Imagine the CS with THEIR equivalent of an Ikazuchi in Rifts Earth...now bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.
I also, personally, think 4 Ikes is bit much, but hey if YOU want to do it then go for it, just realize that the CS out numbers and out guns them. Now from a strict REF military perspective an Ike is equivalent to a Wet Navy air craft carrier. Most likely what you'll find is an Ike surrounded by a bunch of smaller vessels like the Garfish, but not 4 by themselves (again that's just my personal veiw on it, disregard it if you want).
Getting them there can be done in a few ways; there's the classic "mis-fold", the inexplicable "blue shift", or having the planet the ground forces are on starts breaking apart (ala Krypton style) due to the experiments done by the Regent or Regis. Let's not forget the random wormhole or experimental stardrive as well. Or the other classic; Blasted by "unknown weapon" that throws you into an alternate dimension.

keir451 wrote:I've done this one a couple of times and I've found that dropping them too close to the CS gets them killed. I put them further away, like West Coast further away.
Here's why; the CS has the radar capabilities to pick the ships up if they come in through the atmosphere (not to mention visual detection). Any of the other city states in the Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada region would spot them as well.

thats not actually a bad idea. with their focus on flying mecha and shuttles, they could covertly bring in teams to the domain of man to do recon and tech aquisition.

2) Despite the crew complements of 4 Ikazuchis they don't have the same level of manpower to be able hold off the CS military for very long(a period of days to maybe a month), not to mention the facilities needed to repair the ships and repair and maintain or even reproduce their equipment effectively. This also doesn't take into account how many people die in the crash landing. They've enough people to make a fighting retreat, and the CS now gets space ships they can dismantle and retrofit to their purposes.

yeah, bad idea. but they'd have enough people to start up a colon y anywhere they do end up.

3) Were will they get more Protoculture and missiles for their (the REF) mecha and equipment? How are they going to
acquire it? Where will they ship it to w/out alerting the CS or other groups?

if using UEEF equipment, you can siphon off the supplies from the Ikazuchi's FTL drives and powerplants to keep mecha going for quite awhile. perhaps long enough to build a small SLMH plant if you got any 1st or 2nd war era mecha. eventually though you'd have to convert to more maintanable power sources, like RIFTS nuclear plants. you'd lose some speed, but your supply problem would be lessened. likewise modifications ot usel ocal missiles and ammo would be eventually required.

but that would be years or decades later.

4) CS Operator/Psi-tech w/ telemechanics, object read and Total Recall now knows EVERYTHING about the set up of the REF tech, how it's built, what systems there are, what they do and how they operate. Imagine the CS with THEIR equivalent of an Ikazuchi in Rifts Earth...now bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

i don't know...does object read show you how to build the machines that build the thing your reading? does it show you events from alternate universes, or do you get a psionic "404: page not found" error instead?

you'd probably get an idea of how something works, but reproducing it would still be hard and take years to figure out how to do it yourself, and then build the stuff needed ot make it yourself.

@GB2098;
Object read would give the psi an impression of the use of the device (literally what it's used for) and impressions of it's owner.

Telemechanics would give them the complete design of the units (in this case let's say the anti-grav units) then the CS build one from the psi's plans and works on applying it to their tech. If any computer on the ship had the schematics for REF production facilities then, yes, the psi could access those plans and hand them over to High Command.

Total recall will allow the psi to recall specific snippets of info on the units h/she's "read" which might/might not include specific things of actual technical use (GMs call).

But, yeah, you're pretty much right on GB 2098 (though I personally still use the old protoculture rules from the first rpg books) I'd love to see how he pulls it off.

There's always the sci-fi classic: entering a wormhole.

Mr. Jays wrote:There's always the sci-fi classic: entering a wormhole.

X-Treme!!!

I used a glancing hit from a Zentraedi destroyer's main gun to overload the already stressed shield generator of an ARMD platform, which expulsed a massive burst of gravitons and tachyons, opening a temporary artificial wormhole to RIFTs Earth. They appeared in roughly the same place over the moon, well outside the debris field in orbit, and the space stations and their weapons.

TiekoSora wrote:I used a glancing hit from a Zentraedi destroyer's main gun to overload the already stressed shield generator of an ARMD platform, which expulsed a massive burst of gravitons and tachyons, opening a temporary artificial wormhole to RIFTs Earth. They appeared in roughly the same place over the moon, well outside the debris field in orbit, and the space stations and their weapons.

That's definately a different approach, and an ARMD platform isn't too insanely powerful for the Rifts space setting without having to rewrite it.

2) Despite the crew complements of 4 Ikazuchis they don't have the same level of manpower to be able hold off the CS military for very long(a period of days to maybe a month), not to mention the facilities needed to repair the ships and repair and maintain or even reproduce their equipment effectively. This also doesn't take into account how many people die in the crash landing. They've enough people to make a fighting retreat, and the CS now gets space ships they can dismantle and retrofit to their purposes.

I don't think I would have the Ikazuchis crash. Not without a good reason and not to just add another handicap (OP did state wanting to avoid cliches, well crashing is one). Even with the crash, the ships use Artificial Gravity so it is likely even in a crash the personnel could surivie with few if any fatalities and damage to the mecha.

That gives them a potential pool of over 2300mecha (500+ are Alphas, and I don't think it includes Cyclones) between 4 carriers, and over 6800 personnel (using RT.com's Infopedia). This does not consider any escort ships with the Ikazuchis (OP omitted, but it makes sense they would have escorts, and if the numerous auxillary/shuttle craft mentioned carry mecha counted seperately). At that size, it would require a significant investment for the CS to attack. Approaching FQ level of resources.

It would also depend when this is happening. The CS IIRC was stretched thin with Tolken and FQ, so may not want to risk it during the war or just after. This could also happen BEFORE the CS has their CWC gear, and just be limited to certain books. It would also depend on which RT Edition is being used.

Long Term the REF in this scenerio is already handicapped compared to the CS with resource availability, so it would be inevitable they would fall due more to a lack of resources than CS technological superiority. Though maybe Atlantis lends a bit of covert aide to keep the contest going (as they do in Europe in WB2/5).

Telemechanics would give them the complete design of the units (in this case let's say the anti-grav units) then the CS build one from the psi's plans and works on applying it to their tech. If any computer on the ship had the schematics for REF production facilities then, yes, the psi could access those plans and hand them over to High Command.

Telemechanics could give them the complete design of the units, but it does not mean they can duplicate the technology. The technologies in use by the REF could require exotic materials (like Protoculture, which we know is used in "generic" circuit boards from the show) that they are incapable of duplicating.

To use your example, what if the Anti-Gravity units require Protoculture as a required material, or a material(s) that can only be manufactured in a microgravity environment (ie orbit). Neither material would be available to the CS, so the CS gets the plans but would be unable to duplicate or utilize the technology. Substitution materials may exit, but that is not a gaurantee they will find them, and such materials may require a trail and error along with a redesign.

The REF using Gravity Control technology might still be able to manufacture microgravity materials, but even if the CS acquired the plans for the technology they are still in the potential required materials area.

perhaps long enough to build a small SLMH plant if you got any 1st or 2nd war era mecha. eventually though you'd have to convert to more maintanable power sources, like RIFTS nuclear plants. you'd lose some speed, but your supply problem would be lessened. likewise modifications ot usel ocal missiles and ammo would be eventually required.

Aside from raw material availability:
-If they can setup a SLMH plant why switch over to Rifts Nuclear Plant?
-If they have the capacity to build an SLMH plant wouldn't conventional ammunition and missiles be easier to produce?

@ShadowLogan; It's definately hard to say what materials might be required, but I(personally) work on the old principal that Protoculture is merely a power source that generates electricity, not a "material component", and that the circuit boards are just circuit boards. Also I work on the presumption that anything built by humans can be replicated by humans if given enough time to study it. Considering that the original RDF personel were able to duplicate the same tech when they discovered the SDF-1 and they were at a lower tech level than the CS is currently, I, IMO, would give the CS an equal (if not better chance) to replicate the tech due to their alreadty higher tech level. Plus there is also the possibility that the CS could find a way to replicate the tech w/out protoculture.
Crashing the Ikazuchis was one of the options the OP presented, that presumes that there was some damage to the AG systems.
Of course the GM of this concept could also decide that the REF can't effectively repair their own ships w/out the proper infrastructure too.

I (personally) do not belive that the CS is "stretched thin", as according to different sources the CS only lost about 400,000 troops during the Tolkeen conflict leaving them w/well over a million troops plus attendant equipment. Plus the CS made peace w/FQ, so no "war issues" there anymore.

I thought FQ had more than just a few thousand troops/GB's at their disposal? (I'll have to look it up).

I wouldn't bring an Ike thru UNLESS it were nearly beyond repair, I might bring an intact Garfish or two, but even then I'd hesistate. Strictly because I think that having those ships too intact leads to a different sort of "power gaming". But that's just me.
Of course if the REF REALLY wants to defeat the CS all they have to do is trot out some Minmei and Yellow Dancer music and the CS will run in terror.
Addendum; I would also like to add in Techno Gothics'"Fun Facts" on the GB, "Fast, Mobile, and Deadly as HELL".

Instead of an ICC , you can always try one of the smaller Zent ships and do roughly the same thing. Having a Scout Ship, it's larger than an ICC, space fold capable. And it could have been set up as a Colony ship on a bad misfold (maybe through a star?)

Flakpanzer wrote:Either of those ideas would be great.

Quick related question:
How would the Coalition react to a large force of REF troops and mechs suddenly appearing on earth?

The propper reaction for the CS would be mobilize their Rapid Deployment Force.

keir451 wrote:It's definately hard to say what materials might be required, but I(personally) work on the old principal that Protoculture is merely a power source that generates electricity, not a "material component", and that the circuit boards are just circuit boards.

The RT RPG has to work within the confines of the show, which means Robotech Circuit boards do exist that use Protoculture Chips. Protoculture is also used in Cloning and Genetic Engineering, not just for electrical power.

Some GMs may wish to simplify that view as a house rule thing, but I am treating the show as part of the Information As Written for the RPG.

keir451 wrote:Also I work on the presumption that anything built by humans can be replicated by humans if given enough time to study it.

That does make sense. However that presumption does not factor in if the CS has the available resources to duplicate the examples of robotechnology. The RT humans had the resources of the entire planet, not a small nation on the Earth, to call upon with the development.

The starting tech base still does not allow them to avoid the potential materials issue. Any work arounds and other substitutions would add to the development time. The CS could also find the requirements for RTnology reproduction with work arounds to costly to justify if such a work around even exists. And the work around might not deliver better performance.

keir451 wrote:I thought FQ had more than just a few thousand troops/GB's at their disposal? (I'll have to look it up)

My bad should have been more clear. Manpower wise FQ has more than the proposed REF, but I was thinking of the full size Mecha Force like the Enforcer, Abolisher, etc. Those numbers where comparable. The CS would need to make a similiar investment in resources they used to handle this aspect of FQ.

I did not look at other areas FQ has because I have no 2E/Infopedia information on the compliment of the Ikazuchi in any of those areas, and WB22 is light on numbers in some categories (and jumps around for the GB). 1E does provide a clue for RT, the OP did not state weather we are talking about 1E or 2E RT. By 1E we would see the REF force grow.

(Triava: FQ's entire QRDF would be outnumbered by the REF's 3-4 Ikazuchis in 1E, but the QRDF numbers are not the entire FQ military).

keir451 wrote:I wouldn't bring an Ike thru UNLESS it were nearly beyond repair, I might bring an intact Garfish or two, but even then I'd hesistate. Strictly because I think that having those ships too intact leads to a different sort of "power gaming". But that's just me.

See that is a major problem with cross over like this. Trying to balance the incoming force without being to generous or stingy to any one faction. Not just in the setup/execution and such, but also the fall out (reverse engineering in this case).

Setting up a scenerio where X force meets Y force on given terrain is much easier to determine. Neither would have to concern themselves with long term resources. Though if RT has full access to its resources of a given time frame, the CS or other Rifts Earth technology based power (I'm familiar with save Atlantis) are simply overwhelmed. Magic and Supernatural types are another matter (though Atlantis falls in this categoy to).

keir451 wrote:Plus the CS made peace w/FQ, so no "war issues" there anymore.

Except we do not know when the OP wants this to take place. So it is still possible the CS and FQ are still at war.

keir451 wrote:Of course if the REF REALLY wants to defeat the CS all they have to do is trot out some Minmei and Yellow Dancer music and the CS will run in terror.

You mean defect to the REF, though Minmei requires prolonged exposure.

Well my goal is to have a decent sized colony. Would the CS be paying attention in Western ND? I want to make their capabilities strong enough to protect themselves and gain regional recognition, but not cause an all-out war with jealous opponents. The bases are set up though...I just want to get them through. And a damaged anti-grav system might just work to rift them through...

ShadowLogan wrote:

perhaps long enough to build a small SLMH plant if you got any 1st or 2nd war era mecha. eventually though you'd have to convert to more maintanable power sources, like RIFTS nuclear plants. you'd lose some speed, but your supply problem would be lessened. likewise modifications ot usel ocal missiles and ammo would be eventually required.

Aside from raw material availability:
-If they can setup a SLMH plant why switch over to Rifts Nuclear Plant?
-If they have the capacity to build an SLMH plant wouldn't conventional ammunition and missiles be easier to produce?

the majority of the mecha would be 3rd war era, meaning protoculture powered. SLMH is a non-protoculture fuel, but 3rd war era mecha don't have the capacity to hold enough SLMH to give useable lifespans. so if you wanted to continue using your cyclones, Alpha's, Beta's, and silverbacks, you'd have to find an alternative thats is just as compact as protoculture, and able to put out enough energy to run the mecha. rifts nuclear plants are probably the closest you'd get. you'd have to swap out drives to rifts equivilents, which would probably reduce your overall performance, but i'd imagine you could do it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

perhaps long enough to build a small SLMH plant if you got any 1st or 2nd war era mecha. eventually though you'd have to convert to more maintanable power sources, like RIFTS nuclear plants. you'd lose some speed, but your supply problem would be lessened. likewise modifications ot usel ocal missiles and ammo would be eventually required.

Aside from raw material availability:
-If they can setup a SLMH plant why switch over to Rifts Nuclear Plant?
-If they have the capacity to build an SLMH plant wouldn't conventional ammunition and missiles be easier to produce?

the majority of the mecha would be 3rd war era, meaning protoculture powered. SLMH is a non-protoculture fuel, but 3rd war era mecha don't have the capacity to hold enough SLMH to give useable lifespans. so if you wanted to continue using your cyclones, Alpha's, Beta's, and silverbacks, you'd have to find an alternative thats is just as compact as protoculture, and able to put out enough energy to run the mecha. rifts nuclear plants are probably the closest you'd get. you'd have to swap out drives to rifts equivilents, which would probably reduce your overall performance, but i'd imagine you could do it.

I am not sure if that's necessary. It is possible and has been theorized that SLMH and Protoculture are very similar of a fuel source. You could potentially use SLMH canister as a replacement of a protoculture canister. Just halve the life duration of the mecha. This may not be possible for a Cyclone, but could potentially be possible for an Alpha or Beta since they have small nuclear power plants.

or you could just, y'know, grow the flower of life since while ley lines are common on rifts earth, there are still lots of places that don't have a ley line right on top of it.

and iirc, the REF does actually know how to process the flower of life into protoculture cells. now, if it was the RDF, that might be a problem, but it isn't, so it's not.

(oh, and while the CS probably could reverse engineer the robotech stuff... most of it is actually nothing special without protoculture. you know, that alien energy source that mucks around with your head? the stuff that the CS is probably going to stay clear of, because it's also used for mutating stuff? about the most they'll get is a better idea of how to make transformable mecha)

Shark_Force wrote:and iirc, the REF does actually know how to process the flower of life into protoculture cells. now, if it was the RDF, that might be a problem, but it isn't, so it's not.

That is debatable. The REF had a new matrix built, but whether or not they could recreate it without the specific engineer (ie Rem a Zor Clone), it's hard to say. The fact that an ICC has probably 20 years worth of power, and there are 3 or 4 of them. You could probably fuel all the mecha for quite some time.

Shiny_man wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

keir451 wrote:Also I work on the presumption that anything built by humans can be replicated by humans if given enough time to study it.

That does make sense. However that presumption does not factor in if the CS has the available resources to duplicate the examples of robotechnology. The RT humans had the resources of the entire planet, not a small nation on the Earth, to call upon with the development.

The starting tech base still does not allow them to avoid the potential materials issue. Any work around and other substitutions would add to the development time. The CS could also find the requirements for RTnology reproduction with work around to costly to justify if such a work around even exists. And the work around might not deliver better performance.

If you look at the land area compared to the original U.S., yes it does seem small but the actual amount of people in the arcology and the cities is a huge amount. It says on page 140 in the main book about a dozen cities are in the Chi-town state all around 200,000 means that in that area there's over 2 million plus people living in the Chi-town arcology is about 2 million. Probably the main part that is actually doing the work is in the Chi-town arcology itself, with that in order just to hold a structure of the magnitude and to field its own standing army you need the resources to build it and maintain it so I would figure the CS could reverse engineer Robotechonology with not much difficulty. When you get down to it the CS has the power to defeat the RT forces that are coming through even if they have full capabilities and crew compliment of the four Ikes with minimal difficulties.

Unfortunately, without knowing the CS's full capabilities at re-engineering, I think this discussion could be futile. Not to mention without knowing full how Robotechnology will integrate in Rifts Earth there could also be additional problems. I am not saying either way that each group will be victorious.

One thing to point out, if you can't decide how Protoculture, P-Cells, SLMH, etc... works, you aren't going to be able to get a good argument. Are P-Cells oversized Duracell's? Are they SLMH canisters? Do they have some green goop in them? Can P-Cells be replaced with SLMH, albeit with a shorter lifespan. Do the ICC's have manufacturing capabilities (and are they extremely automated like a Robotech Factory?). Can you pull power from the ICC's engines to fuel mecha? Can anyone make a Protoculture Matrix?

There are ton's of questions that need to be answered. And more than I just mentioned here.

ShadowLogan wrote:

keir451 wrote:It's definately hard to say what materials might be required, but I(personally) work on the old principal that Protoculture is merely a power source that generates electricity, not a "material component", and that the circuit boards are just circuit boards.

The RT RPG has to work within the confines of the show, which means Robotech Circuit boards do exist that use Protoculture Chips. Protoculture is also used in Cloning and Genetic Engineering, not just for electrical power.

Some GMs may wish to simplify that view as a house rule thing, but I am treating the show as part of the Information As Written for the RPG.

keir451 wrote:Also I work on the presumption that anything built by humans can be replicated by humans if given enough time to study it.

That does make sense. However that presumption does not factor in if the CS has the available resources to duplicate the examples of robotechnology. The RT humans had the resources of the entire planet, not a small nation on the Earth, to call upon with the development.

The starting tech base still does not allow them to avoid the potential materials issue. Any work arounds and other substitutions would add to the development time. The CS could also find the requirements for RTnology reproduction with work arounds to costly to justify if such a work around even exists. And the work around might not deliver better performance.

keir451 wrote:I thought FQ had more than just a few thousand troops/GB's at their disposal? (I'll have to look it up)

My bad should have been more clear. Manpower wise FQ has more than the proposed REF, but I was thinking of the full size Mecha Force like the Enforcer, Abolisher, etc. Those numbers where comparable. The CS would need to make a similiar investment in resources they used to handle this aspect of FQ.

I did not look at other areas FQ has because I have no 2E/Infopedia information on the compliment of the Ikazuchi in any of those areas, and WB22 is light on numbers in some categories (and jumps around for the GB). 1E does provide a clue for RT, the OP did not state weather we are talking about 1E or 2E RT. By 1E we would see the REF force grow.

(Triava: FQ's entire QRDF would be outnumbered by the REF's 3-4 Ikazuchis in 1E, but the QRDF numbers are not the entire FQ military).

keir451 wrote:I wouldn't bring an Ike thru UNLESS it were nearly beyond repair, I might bring an intact Garfish or two, but even then I'd hesistate. Strictly because I think that having those ships too intact leads to a different sort of "power gaming". But that's just me.

See that is a major problem with cross over like this. Trying to balance the incoming force without being to generous or stingy to any one faction. Not just in the setup/execution and such, but also the fall out (reverse engineering in this case).

Setting up a scenerio where X force meets Y force on given terrain is much easier to determine. Neither would have to concern themselves with long term resources. Though if RT has full access to its resources of a given time frame, the CS or other Rifts Earth technology based power (I'm familiar with save Atlantis) are simply overwhelmed. Magic and Supernatural types are another matter (though Atlantis falls in this categoy to).

keir451 wrote:Plus the CS made peace w/FQ, so no "war issues" there anymore.

Except we do not know when the OP wants this to take place. So it is still possible the CS and FQ are still at war.

keir451 wrote:Of course if the REF REALLY wants to defeat the CS all they have to do is trot out some Minmei and Yellow Dancer music and the CS will run in terror.

You mean defect to the REF, though Minmei requires prolonged exposure.

Granted that the show had Protoculture circuit boards and Protculture had more uses, even so I might honestly say that the design of the circuit systems could be replicated, and the CS does already have cloning tech.
I'm sorry to say, the Rifts gear is easily at least comparable, tho' typically better than much of the CS gear.
The same kinds of bonuses that some of the RT gear has are also present in CS gear w/ out protoculture so a work around of CS replicating RT technology might actually turn out better.
Consider also that the REF has nothing to compare to a DHT or a Firestorm. Cyclones while neat, still don't match the kind of firepower of a Super SAMAS or the Warbird or even the Striker SAMAS can field. RT has only one AI robot, where as Rifts has Triax 'bots, NG 'bots, Skelebots, Cyborgs, etc.
A true CS soldier WON'T defect to RT, they're D-bees after all . Also once the REF loses a mecha they'll have a harder time of replacing them while even FQ can easily replace their GB troops.

@Tiree; You're absolutely correct. I was(in part) going off of the section in the Original Conversion book regarding RT conversion to Rifts, Rt gear is semi compatable w/Rifts gear. Missile launchers and missiles were stated as having to be replaced when theynran out of ammo and (at the time) replacing the Protoculture cell w/anuclear plant would cost you bonuses. I say "at the time" because he War Camapign gear is easily equivalent or in some cases better than RT gear.

Replacing their mecha might be difficult, but I would have at least 1 ICC with manufacturing capabilities. The leadership will realize that the protoculture supply will eventually die out and begin to create nuclear-powered variants or all-new mecha. It would be a gradual shift though. I could see the ICC or other smaller escort ships having some of their power generators refuel the protoculture engines of the mecha. All mecha would have to have some kind of self-destruct mechanism that makes them immune to re-engineering (works most of the time), as the leadership couldn't let Robotechnology into the hands of the CS or other threats. I would basically try to play their mission as a bastion of goodness in a cruel world. Civilized and educated people trying to make the world a better place and free the oppressed and downtrodden. Eventually they would probably establish relations with groups like Lazlo and the New Navy...and I could also see a Cold War eventually start brewing with the CS.

Aaryq wrote:Well my goal is to have a decent sized colony. Would the CS be paying attention in Western ND? I want to make their capabilities strong enough to protect themselves and gain regional recognition, but not cause an all-out war with jealous opponents. The bases are set up though...I just want to get them through. And a damaged anti-grav system might just work to rift them through...

While Western ND isn't (currently) in the territory they intend to take in their 20 yr. expansion plan, North and South Dakota border directly upon the Former territory of Tolkeen, and the CS WOULD have recon patrols in that region. So while it is possible for a small REF group to go unnoticed for while eventually the CS WILL get into that area and the REF would be discovered. It would take 20-40yrs. or so but it would happen, it would happen even faster if substantiated rumors regarding a new high tech group operating out that area came to the attention of CS intel. If you really want a group of REF personnel to make a real showing on Rifts Earth then I suggest moving them further West, however (IMO) if you really want them to wind up in ND then prepare for them to have to fight the CS within the next 20-40 yrs, by which time the CS will be even MORE powerful than they already are. Take into consideration that the CURRENT CS Army is still over 1 million strong, they have a solid core of experienced combat veterans and after Tolkeen their other cities are most likely to experience a large population surge from both within (births) and without (immigration) thus swelling their numbers even more.

Aaryq wrote:Replacing their mecha might be difficult, but I would have at least 1 ICC with manufacturing capabilities. The leadership will realize that the protoculture supply will eventually die out and begin to create nuclear-powered variants or all-new mecha. It would be a gradual shift though. I could see the ICC or other smaller escort ships having some of their power generators refuel the protoculture engines of the mecha. All mecha would have to have some kind of self-destruct mechanism that makes them immune to re-engineering (works most of the time), as the leadership couldn't let Robotechnology into the hands of the CS or other threats. I would basically try to play their mission as a bastion of goodness in a cruel world. Civilized and educated people trying to make the world a better place and free the oppressed and downtrodden. Eventually they would probably establish relations with groups like Lazlo and the New Navy...and I could also see a Cold War eventually start brewing with the CS.

IIRC all mecha did have a self destruct built in any way, but some equipment may still fall into the hands of the CS and the REF (currently) doesn't have ANY supernatural defenses.
Unfortunately even the Ikes' power systems are only good for 20-30 yrs (that's not counting time in service already) so eventually even the starships will run out of power. The biggest caveat is that the CS is experienced in REAL ground combat, whereas much of the REF is built around space combat.
I can easily see the REF trying to make some sort of deal w/ Lazlo, New Lazlo. The New Navy is a little harder to figure, KS has them kinda waffling about contacting the CS and Nemo himself is still kinda wary of dealing w/ D-bees.
I (personally) disagree w/ the Cold war concept, the CS (as written)just. simply. WOULD. NOT. tolerate. a new D-bee threat in their proverbial backyard. They would most likely (upon discovering the REF) roll in and just flatten they area and send any captured personnel, equipment, comp. files, etc. back to Chi-town or Lonestar for "dissection". The REF needs to resupply P-cells on average EVERY MONTH durnig heavy combat, the CS gear; Good for twenty years continual use, no matter the conditions.
Please understand I'm not trying to trash your scenario, again my only suggestion on it really just move the REF further west, that way you can pull off most (if not all) of your plans.
Good Luck and Have fun.

Shinnyman:
RT vs CS (or insert Rift Power) essentially turns out the same. The Robotech powers have their hands tied due to the lack of resources for a sustained presence. If the RT forces have the supporting infrastructure it becomes a different matter.

keir451 wrote:While Western ND isn't (currently) in the territory they intend to take in their 20 yr. expansion plan, North and South Dakota border directly upon the Former territory of Tolkeen, and the CS WOULD have recon patrols in that region. So while it is possible for a small REF group to go unnoticed for while eventually the CS WILL get into that area and the REF would be discovered.

Actually given the discription in New West for ND being on the boarder of the Bugs, it is possible the CS preferance to letting their enemies fight amongst themselves might prevail (The Shem/Atlantis conflict is an example).

And if the CS leaves them alone for a large amount of time, the REF should also be developing its technology base. Off hand I don't know what natural resources ND offers that the REF could use for industrial manufacture, so another area out west might be better in that regard.

keir451 wrote:Granted that the show had Protoculture circuit boards and Protculture had more uses, even so I might honestly say that the design of the circuit systems could be replicated, and the CS does already have cloning tech.

Since the Circuits are designed with a Protoculture Chip, substitions may change the outcome. A RL example would be Supercondoctors (RT) being replaced by conventional materials (CS). Right away the substitution is less efficient. 2E RPG even provides an other example (mentioned later).

As for Cloning. Protoculture is shown to allow a new clone body for the Zentreadi to be grown in avery short amount of time when they are resized (process is called re-cloning). And by 1E rules, the growth rate of a ready made clone is fast. This is because of Protoculture by all indications.

keir451 wrote:The same kinds of bonuses that some of the RT gear has are also present in CS gear w/ out protoculture so a work around of CS replicating RT technology might actually turn out better.

Doubtful. In 2E* we have the H-90, along with a few other personal side arms with Protoculture E-Clips that have hundreds of shots made available to them. Some of the weapons have alternate non-PC E-Clips, but they have a much smaller payload (the Sal-9 is like 1/20 and comparable to Rifts) for the same performance. That seems pretty clear that Protoculture subsitutions are not going to be as effective.

*1E the Clips are similiar in most cases (though there are a few with slightly higher payloads).

keir451 wrote:Consider also that the REF has nothing to compare to a DHT or a Firestorm. Cyclones while neat, still don't match the kind of firepower of a Super SAMAS or the Warbird or even the Striker SAMAS can field. RT has only one AI robot, where as Rifts has Triax 'bots, NG 'bots, Skelebots, Cyborgs, etc.

Robotech doesn't need a DHT or Firestorm, they have platforms that full fill the same role with far superior performance. You have the Garfish and Horizonts doing the DHT, the Ikazuchi is easily superior to the Firestorm for the REF.

A Saber Cyclone with a Missile Sidecar and gunpod has about the same firepower as a Striker.

Robotech has more than just 1AI robot. 1E we had the GMP bot, they also had Janice (one of a kind), the Lancer II and Ghost Fighter, the TRAC units, (plus the automated things on the RFS adventures though not Terran). 2E still the GMP bot, the Alpha Drones, and Ghost Drones. Plus Janice (again one of a kind, but the Mark 1 was built soley on Earth so mass production would be possible).

Per DIALOGUE they have Cyborgs in TRM, we don't see any. So no true idea of their capabilities in either edition. The only one we see is the Invid Cyborg Dusty Ares in NG (and 1E does give stats for an Invid Borg).

keir451 wrote:A true CS soldier WON'T defect to RT, they're D-bees after all

What they can't change their mind? I thought there where examples of CS Soliders deserting and such.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the majority of the mecha would be 3rd war era, meaning protoculture powered. SLMH is a non-protoculture fuel, but 3rd war era mecha don't have the capacity to hold enough SLMH to give useable lifespans. so if you wanted to continue using your cyclones, Alpha's, Beta's, and silverbacks, you'd have to find an alternative thats is just as compact as protoculture, and able to put out enough energy to run the mecha. rifts nuclear plants are probably the closest you'd get. you'd have to swap out drives to rifts equivilents, which would probably reduce your overall performance, but i'd imagine you could do it.

I could see that if everything was 3rd gen, but you suggested building a SLMH production facility to fuel SLMH vehicles for 1st/2nd Gen units they had with them. If we are including examples like that with the REF force, then couldn't the REF then just replace the PC engines of the 3rd Gen with SLMH engines based on the 1st/2nd Gen examples? I mean if we are giving them manufacturing capacity for some aspects, it stands to reason they could manufacture in other areas.

The only issue I see is the location. Does North Dakota have the resources to support a manufacturing location?

ShadowLogan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the majority of the mecha would be 3rd war era, meaning protoculture powered. SLMH is a non-protoculture fuel, but 3rd war era mecha don't have the capacity to hold enough SLMH to give useable lifespans. so if you wanted to continue using your cyclones, Alpha's, Beta's, and silverbacks, you'd have to find an alternative thats is just as compact as protoculture, and able to put out enough energy to run the mecha. rifts nuclear plants are probably the closest you'd get. you'd have to swap out drives to rifts equivilents, which would probably reduce your overall performance, but i'd imagine you could do it.

I could see that if everything was 3rd gen, but you suggested building a SLMH production facility to fuel SLMH vehicles for 1st/2nd Gen units they had with them. If we are including examples like that with the REF force, then couldn't the REF then just replace the PC engines of the 3rd Gen with SLMH engines based on the 1st/2nd Gen examples? I mean if we are giving them manufacturing capacity for some aspects, it stands to reason they could manufacture in other areas.

the problem is fuel supply. a VF-1 uses hundreds of gallons of SLMH for a couple of hours of powered operation. (look at Ben's damaged VF-1. it was losing SLMH at a good rate, having lost more fluid in the short time we're shown the damage than an Alpha can fit in the space it's PC supply takes up.)

depending on how much reaction mass an alpha stores for space operations (presumably in it's wings, which are fairly small and narrow in cross section, so not much), you might be able to replace those with SLMH tanks, but you'd basically be operating on the Alpha's Auxilary powerplant the entire time, and you'd be lucky to get the powered operational time the VF-1 enjoys. (Fusion gives off lots of power..but it's a major fuel hog.)

Frankly, if they've got the ability to make new mecha and SLMH, it would make more sense to replace the Alpha's and Beta's with ASC veritechs and battloids than try to convert the Alpha's. it would make more sense to try and convert cyclones to a rifts nukeplant though, since they couldn't convert to SLMH and hope to carry much of any fuel, and are the best powered armor a robotech group could hope for in rifts.

Personally I think they could get away with a trade agreement withteh high up sof NG, trading a limited amount other tech to NG for Intel and a return of tech as well.

"Presenting, the Northern Gun Mobile Trooper.... *unveils a modified nuke powered version of Battler Cyclone* ... The mobility of a Motorcycle and the firepower of a Power Armour all in one package..."

This way it's win win and NG wouldn;t want to divulge thier source so they'd play it off as an advancement developed by thier own engineering teams etc while the REF gets Intel on the planet along with local tech to work with and incorporate into thier own mecha. This owuld have to ut htem north west of where tolkeen was though to be safe to a degree. Getting past CS patrols shouldnt be THAT difficult, and any encounters they can play the part of wayward adventurer just out and about.

jaymz wrote:Personally I think they could get away with a trade agreement withteh high up sof NG, trading a limited amount other tech to NG for Intel and a return of tech as well.

"Presenting, the Northern Gun Mobile Trooper.... *unveils a modified nuke powered version of Battler Cyclone* ... The mobility of a Motorcycle and the firepower of a Power Armour all in one package..."

This way it's win win and NG wouldn;t want to divulge thier source so they'd play it off as an advancement developed by thier own engineering teams etc while the REF gets Intel on the planet along with local tech to work with and incorporate into thier own mecha. This owuld have to ut htem north west of where tolkeen was though to be safe to a degree. Getting past CS patrols shouldnt be THAT difficult, and any encounters they can play the part of wayward adventurer just out and about.

heh..back when i first got into rifts, i'd intended to make the Cyclone's from (the old) Robotech book 5 available in rifts with a nuke plant....never got to use the idea....but now i have a name...

glitterboy2098 wrote:

jaymz wrote:Personally I think they could get away with a trade agreement withteh high up sof NG, trading a limited amount other tech to NG for Intel and a return of tech as well.

"Presenting, the Northern Gun Mobile Trooper.... *unveils a modified nuke powered version of Battler Cyclone* ... The mobility of a Motorcycle and the firepower of a Power Armour all in one package..."

This way it's win win and NG wouldn;t want to divulge thier source so they'd play it off as an advancement developed by thier own engineering teams etc while the REF gets Intel on the planet along with local tech to work with and incorporate into thier own mecha. This owuld have to ut htem north west of where tolkeen was though to be safe to a degree. Getting past CS patrols shouldnt be THAT difficult, and any encounters they can play the part of wayward adventurer just out and about.

heh..back when i first got into rifts, i'd intended to make the Cyclone's from (the old) Robotech book 5 available in rifts with a nuke plant....never got to use the idea....but now i have a name...

You are welcome

In all seriousness the basic tech behind hte mecha is no different between worlds, its more the weapons arrays (again not that dissimilar reeally) missiles and powerplants. Stat wise most Rifts mecha are on par with Robotech mecha (for me this includes jet fighters as well sicne I allow jet fighter pilots to use the fighter combat eleite from phaseworld for aircraft). i think they woudl just have more of an issue installing the powerplant more than anything else.

it would depend on how different the Gm makes the materials and computer technology involved. for example, computers. Robotech uses what looks ot be fairly 20th century stuff, albiet maybe with some different programming languages. where as rifts? could be using totally different computer architecture for all we know. after all, they did have another 100 years to develop their own tech, and didn't have tyrolian/zentreadi stuff to intergrate.

so the GM can make it as hard or easy as he wants.

glitterboy2098 wrote:it would depend on how different the Gm makes the materials and computer technology involved. for example, computers. Robotech uses what looks ot be fairly 20th century stuff, albiet maybe with some different programming languages. where as rifts? could be using totally different computer architecture for all we know. after all, they did have another 100 years to develop their own tech, and didn't have tyrolian/zentreadi stuff to intergrate.

so the GM can make it as hard or easy as he wants.

True enuf but from a strictly game stats standpoint, it more a matter of converting thier sutff over. ON Rifts earth Nuclear powerplant can apparently give equal power output as Robotch powerplants. The computer techmay be irrelevant since the resources they shoul be able to salvage form teh crashed ships should allow them to maintain and rebuld thier computers etc. Material involved shouldn;t be all that different. All in all if able o survive the intial few years the downed REF ships/crew/etc wodul make an interesting abd powerful faction I think. To the point that NG may be able to not be so buddy buddy with the CS since they only do it for thier own survival/continued existence. Give them a powerful enough allie/allies and NG doesn;t have to cower to teh CS anymore

EDIT - Not to mention Manistique Imperium and Golden Age WEaponsmiths too. If they have no reason to really fear teh CS per se thats bad news for teh CS and having a Powerful ally in teh REF who would likley throw in with Lazlo/New Lazlo/Dweomer.....well it woudl certainly make it a toss up to who migh twin a continental war at that point.

EDIT 2 - Why couldn't they crash in mid state Michigan? CLose the lakes, NG/MI, Lazlo/New Lazlo, resources and the CS doesnt typically have patrols that far away....somewhere just north west of Saginaw maybe..

If the CS launched an all-out attack to deal with them, the Federation of Magic would likely see this as a good opportunity to attack. With their army out dealing with the new threat, they might not have enough troops left at home to deal with this. The only reason Dunscon didn't attack during the war on Tolkeen is because he blamed them for betraying his father.

If they didn't send a full army to deal with it, then likely their initial force would be defeated. Regardless, the CS have enough enemies that would love to take advantage of the situation.

What's SLMH?

Aaryq wrote:What's SLMH?

Stabilized Liquid Metallic Hydrogen and it is the standard fuel used for 1st and 2nd gen mecha.

@glitterboy2098
Additional tankage could be made by sacrificing (in any combination):
-the Cyclone Storage Bay
-the VTOL thruster (model dependant)
-some internal ordance stations
-removing the auxilary fusion system

Probably a few other ways to modify the REF platforms.

However, the 2nd Gen Logan and AGAC, are about the same physical size as the Alpha in Fighter Mode and get 7days compared to the larger 1st Gen VF-1's 2days (Alpha, AGAC, and VF-1 are of similiar mass). So some efficiency improvements have been made between 1st and 2nd Gen systems.

It would depend then on what 1st and 2nd Gen platforms the REF has to work off of.

Long term I do think they would end up replacing the REF units with ASC/RDF style units if they developed a manufacturing capacity. They might also seek to modify the 3rd Gen systems to SLMH to keep them operating as long as possible instead of recycling them. Over the long run, they likely will develop new units better optimized for Rifts Earth, so duplicating existing RDF/ASC/REF mecha models likely won't happen.

It maybe possible to convert the Cyclones to use the same energy sytem the ASC power armor use. Though here I don't think they would get the 1week supply, the Cyclones are much smaller than the ASC units, so likely looking at a few days if it scales directly.

@Shiny_man
This is pretty much my take on the situation to. RT is handicapped from a long term perspective on Rifts Earth. They have to get a foot hold, which isn't going to be easy with the amount of information available on the geography of Rifts Earth (maybe Antarctica?, Space would be the best, even with competition from the locals).

Here's a thought. Since it's essentially a parallel reality, The Robotech Masters could be benevolent. The SDF-1 crashes on Earth but about the time of the Tolkeen War, and the Masters are in the are to revocer it. They see the ICC fold in on sensors, and after some scans determine that there is another Protoculture using race around outside their Tyrolian Republic. Just the first contact between the ICC and RM's could an interesting part of the campaign. If they form an alliance, at least on a small scale, they could push for the reclamation of the Earth from thr demonic and mostrous hordes. A contiuous supply of protoculture cells and a repair facility would go a long way, even if thet RM's wouldn't supply a Robotech factory ship (which would be out of scale and OP for what is wanted).

Skip the Icky and go with a robotech factory or the SDF-3
With either one it had a fold malfunction and they appear below the ice shelf in the Arctic Circle. Injuries all around but no fatalities, some may be out of action for months but luckilly no deaths. For a long time they are just recovering and have no idea where they are because they are locked in the ice and the guys with the big ideas are unconcious or comatose. Enter the PCs.