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Got a question for you all, and I'm hoping to not only generate an answer but to also have a good discussion on the topic. The topic at hand is Saving Throws. The question is: How do you determine the target number for a particular Save?

I know that the books all list some target numbers for different things, but I have found that, from time to time, the target numbers listed aren't consistent. I'm not talking about "The target is x under these circumstances, but x under this other one". I mean that at times I've seen the general target be 15, where in other places it's less than that. And it's something that bothers both me and the guys I game with. So we came up with something that we think works. At least for us.

If a specific ability/spell/power/weapon/etc. doesn't explicitly state what the target saving throw is, we use the old 2nd edition AD&D saving throw chart. I know that there are far more things to save against in the megaverse than AD&D accounted for, but the chart works. We can (somewhat logically) group OCCs by the old AD&D classes, and we can (somewhat) group the saving throw types by the old AD&D saving throw types. And the bonus to this is that the saving throws do get better as you get up in levels (which counteracts the penalties for having to deal with harsher and harsher things to save against).

What do you guys think about this? What do you guys do? Anybody have anything they've done?

Ummm, in Rifts I dont. I just use whatever number the OCC says. Like AD&D 1st and 2nd edition.

I do not use the D&D 3rd edition saving throw system in my Palladium games. BUT, I sometimes think maybe I should.

Well, just like the writers of D&D 3rd had to generate difficulty checks for EVERYTHING in the game, we would need to do the same for everything in Rifts (or whatever system you use). It would require buttloads of work but in the end may be worth the effort. Horror Factor would be a will save, most poisons are Fortitude saves, and so forth.

Certain classes get higher or lower bonuses to saves, just like D&D. Wizards would get a +4 bonus (at level 1) to Will saves, while many other classes would only get a +2. Men At Arms might get a +4 to fortitude saves. Juicers would not get any special bonuses to Reflex saves but their high PP would allow a stat bonus.

Of course at this point we are talking about converting other system rules directly over to Palladium and thats not allowed here. The change isnt dicey at all, (in fact it would be quite easy) we just arent allowed to do it publicly.

Abub wrote:Um... you understand that saves in palladium generally do not improve as you level right?

I am aware of that. Everything in the megaverse - except for saving throws - gets better as you level up. The premise is that as you gain experience/levels, you get better at doing things. The same should hold true for your body. As a child, you aren't very wise and could fail many tasks involving intelligence and/or wisdom (in this case, IQ, ME, and MA). But as you get older, you get wiser, and you should get better at these tasks. Same thing for the body.

Abub wrote:Um... you understand that saves in palladium generally do not improve as you level right?

Which is why we suggested using an alternate system.

I have never found myself lacking a "save against X"

I would also like to see some improvements to saves but they would be in the form of +1 at lvl 5 or similar.

You see I wouldn't decrease the saving throw required (like psionics for minor, major and master) - I would simply increase the saves to read +2, +5 etc. Simplifies the list of saves to remember.

KISSIE - Keep It Simple, Simple Is Effective.

saves
coma/Death-- (rolling under the Char's coma % 2 out of three times)

15-Druges/toxins-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
16-Poison(non-lethal)--+ (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
14-Poison(lethal)-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)

12-Magic-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
16-Ritual Magic-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
13-Magic Circles-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
13-Magic Wards-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
14-Magic Fumes- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)
16-Faeriy Magic-- (add in the PE vs magic bonus number to the roll)

12-insanity-- (add the ME insanity bonus number to the roll, Rifts players, this is not listing in the rifts books so you will need to see the PF2 or HU2 books to find it.)

15/12/10-Psioics-- (non-psi's/ minior, major, and animals/ master Psi's target numbers to roll over)
Horror Factor-- (added to roll vs the other's HF, & Awe Factor)
mind control(any)-- (added to the save role vs any and all types of mind control, including Psi. magic, drugs, brain washing, etc...)

possession-- (added to the char's roll vs the possessing entity's possessing roll)

disease-- (added to the char's roll vs disease)
Pain-- (added to the char's roll vs pain in addition to the ¿PE? attribute magic bonus number)

perception-- (added to the char's roll vs the perception difficulty)

MA--[char's MA%] (the target number the other chars have to roll under to avoid being affected by the char's charisma)
PB--[char's PB%] (the target number the other chars have to roll under to avoid being affected by the char's Beauty/Good Looks)

Note: the save vs MA % and PB % are disputed, but the only example of there usage are found in the 'Warrior's Spirit Kata' in Ninja and SuperSpies.

Going up in level is not going to help you survive a nerve agent.... same applies to tear gas and pepper spray.

jedi078 wrote:Going up in level is not going to help you survive a nerve agent.... same applies to tear gas and pepper spray.

Then how do you explain Arnold Schwarzenegger?

Level actually does help with tear gas and pepper spray
the more exposure you have to it the less it affects you
In boot camp our base commander wanted to show off in front of the new recruits and during the exercise for the gas masks he stood in the shack without a mask staring the recruits down

Regarding HF
Something that is suppose to be immeasurably old and evil and sadistic is still within a few points of a zombie?

Shorty Lickens wrote:

jedi078 wrote:Going up in level is not going to help you survive a nerve agent.... same applies to tear gas and pepper spray.

Then how do you explain Arnold Schwarzenegger?

I doubt he has been exposed to nerve gas.

KillWatch wrote:Level actually does help with tear gas and pepper spray
the more exposure you have to it the less it affects you
In boot camp our base commander wanted to show off in front of the new recruits and during the exercise for the gas masks he stood in the shack without a mask staring the recruits down

Yes I've gone into the gas chamber before without a gas mask too. Thing is that was a controlled situation. You know it is coming so you can prepare for it and if you focus all of your attention on fighting through the tear gas then yes you can fight it off.

But I bet the situation would be different if your base CO was in a combat situation where he was fighting for his life and having to breath heavily, give out orders and think about other things then fighting off the effects of tear gas.

Saves in Palladium generally work well, when it comes to posions / magic and the like. Only real weirdness comes with HF, which just don't measure up in many cases as pointed out before, some of the creatures out there should have over 20 for their HF (meaning not only do you need a great roll, you need a solid bonus).

jedi078 wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:

jedi078 wrote:Going up in level is not going to help you survive a nerve agent.... same applies to tear gas and pepper spray.

Then how do you explain Arnold Schwarzenegger?

I doubt he has been exposed to nerve gas.

KillWatch wrote:Level actually does help with tear gas and pepper spray
the more exposure you have to it the less it affects you
In boot camp our base commander wanted to show off in front of the new recruits and during the exercise for the gas masks he stood in the shack without a mask staring the recruits down

Yes I've gone into the gas chamber before without a gas mask too. Thing is that was a controlled situation. You know it is coming so you can prepare for it and if you focus all of your attention on fighting through the tear gas then yes you can fight it off.

But I bet the situation would be different if your base CO was in a combat situation where he was fighting for his life and having to breath heavily, give out orders and think about other things then fighting off the effects of tear gas.

CS gas, the stuff used in military training, is one of those lovely things that repeated exposure builds up an immunity to. Gas chamber trainers are functionally immune to the stuff after a few training cycles and drill instructors do eventually develop that immunity as well. I'm often bemused that the military doesn't put everyone thru the chamber enough times to build up that immunity.