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One of the topic i find infinitely fascinating is the idea of technology and its ability to alter our definitions of human. this idea has basically broken down into two camps of thought, related and effectively indistinguishable to those who do not make the effort to research the distinction. these are the Posthumanism and Transhumanism concepts. in many ways, they are similar. both postulate that we will develop technology that will allow the transcendance of the 'Human condition'. meaning eliminating things like sickness, old age, physical or mental disabilities, and so on. the two feilds of thought however differ greatly in their goals. Posthumanism basically assumes "Mankind is a flawed species, and thus must be replaced!", and tends to focus on concepts like Cybernetics (replacing organic parts with artificial ones) and things like uploading human minds into computer systems, abandoning flesh for circuts and machines. Transhumanism, on the otherhand, is more "Humanity is a flawed species, and can be improved!" Transhumanism tends to focus more on using technology to offset human weaknesses, without greatly altering the basic form of humanity. developing new medicines to cure sickness, extend life, or treat disabilities. developing technologies to augment our natural abilities. this distinction, that of 'replacing' humanity vs. 'improving' humanity, is a major difference, but subtle.

RIFTS is predominantly a Posthuman future. particularly in the realm of cybernetics. the most common form of 'human augmentation' is Cybernetics and Bionics. in both technologies, the core concept is to replace the individuals flesh and bone with mechanical or synthetic parts. for some this is done as a result of injury, where the organic parts could not be saved or replacement transplants not available. but for many, this is done as a conscious choice, to throw away their functional organic parts in favor of parts of metal and plastic. this attitude is also seen in the Chemical augmentation and Mind over matter Technologies (Juicers and Crazies). Juicers throw away their lifespan in order to gain extreme strength, agility, and toughness. Crazies throw away their sanity. in both cases, it is the extreme nature of these so-called augmentations that place them in the Posthumanism concept. "Humanity is weak, so i will sacrifice my humanity to become a Borg/Crazy/Juicer." however, there are virtually no Transhumanism elements in RIFTS. attempts to develop technologies that address the problems of humanity without sacrificing the inherent strengths already present. Cybernetics that do not rely on replacing parts of one's body are almost entirely cosmetic in nature, and invariably result in an individual which no longer appears human, for example. There was a small amount of such in Chaos Earth, primarily the Genetic enhancements one could select, that made one smarter or stronger or tougher, along with the life extending treatments mentioned that allowed individuals to live 200 years or more. but after the cataclysm, the transhumanism approach seems to have been forgotten.

Personally, i beleive that RIFTS should include more Transhumanist elements. certainly the Transhumanist approach has become the more popular one in the popular conscious in recent years, given the ongoing development of medical technologies. So how would Transhumanist themes be intergrated into RIFTS? first, the place Transhumanism could be added is in Cybernetics. adding cybernetics that can enhance an individual without requiring that individual to replace their natural body would be a good start. systems that improve the function of their biology without hazardous or debilitating side effects. these systems would invariably be weaker than the current fully mechanical cybernetics, but probably cheaper and definitely less 'dehumanising'. i suggest looking at current research into augmentation technologies for ideas to 'spin out' into RIFTS. implanted or contact lense data displays. Cornea transplants. and so on. many of the transhumanist elements from the early Cyberpunk stories (muscle implants, minor genetic alterations, and so on.) would fit right in with RIFTS.

couldnt every suit of power armor be considered a transhumanist device?

Powered armor is really more of a temporary augmentation, while Transhumanism tends to strive for more permanent ones. certainly extremely long lived ones.

Powered armor certainly could be a Transhumanist element, but it would have to be Ubiquitous, or darn near it, to be a strong one. meaning that powered armor is cheap, common, and widely used. currently RIFTS powered armor is not cheap, common, nor widely used outside the military. Civilian PA, unarmed and perhaps with minimal armor, certainly would be a Transhumanist element.

however i was mainly thinking about direct human augmentation, like borgs, and not indirect augmentation like PA. i beleive rifts has a tendancy to get 'into a rut'. there is a great tendancy to play around with cosmetic aspects of the setting (the damage of guns, the appearance of bots/borgs, etc), and stick to making variations on existing elements. most laser weapons for example, and basically the same gun with a few stats changed. most cyborgs invariably are just "man who replaced all/part of his body with machines", regardless of their stats. we as players, GM's, and writers need to try and think about the core concepts being used, and try to add more real variety of concept to the game. especially since reality is beginning to produce some very interesting ideas that make stuff in rifts seem kinda mundane.

I think the definitions of posthuman and transhuman being used by the original poster are kinda fundamentally flawed. Especially since in Rifts, human augmentation is just there because it's cool and very very cyberpunk, not because any of the writers were trying to explore any deeper social/moral/philosophical ramifications of it all.

Plus you'll notice that in Rifts, virtually everyone treats human augmentation as a tool, not as a goal. Juicers, crazies, cyborgs, and so on are just attempts to enhance the body's performance in dangerous environments, they aren't trends that are being adopted in a big way by society as a whole (except for relatively minor amounts of cybernetics).

All in all, I'd say that trying to read posthumanism/transhumanism into the Rifts canon is just trying too hard to get too much depth from a relatively shadow product. Some places have androids and mutant animals fighting for them because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. Some people replace 90% of their body with bionics or doom themselves to a few brief years as a drug-enhanced supersoldier because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. And that's all there is to it.

Rallan wrote:I think the definitions of posthuman and transhuman being used by the original poster are kinda fundamentally flawed. Especially since in Rifts, human augmentation is just there because it's cool and very very cyberpunk, not because any of the writers were trying to explore any deeper social/moral/philosophical ramifications of it all.

Plus you'll notice that in Rifts, virtually everyone treats human augmentation as a tool, not as a goal. Juicers, crazies, cyborgs, and so on are just attempts to enhance the body's performance in dangerous environments, they aren't trends that are being adopted in a big way by society as a whole (except for relatively minor amounts of cybernetics).

All in all, I'd say that trying to read posthumanism/transhumanism into the Rifts canon is just trying too hard to get too much depth from a relatively shadow product. Some places have androids and mutant animals fighting for them because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. Some people replace 90% of their body with bionics or doom themselves to a few brief years as a drug-enhanced supersoldier because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. And that's all there is to it.

I am sorry that the people you game with are shallow( or as you say 'shadow'...though I think you meant shallow)...but you are right in that Rifts is not a game where people are at the point where they are agumenting to better'...that is not what Rifts is about. People in Rifts do it for a number of reasons...

1) Surival...
2) a sense of duty...rather it is misplaced or not.
3) many are forced to do it...etc.

So really I don't see Rifts as a place where people are using tech to replace or improve humanity...atleast not yet.

Though there are hints that this was a issue back before the Rifts...which is why you had cyborgs, Juicers...crazies etc...also Human were geneticaly better back then...as shown in Chaos Earth.

Oh it's not the people I game with, it's the game. Rifts is not (and has never been) a game that explores issues in any great depth. There's certainly plenty of room there for groups who want to take an in-depth look at various stuff, but the published material itself is all about explosions and awesomeness and robots punching dragons in the face. And I doubt that many of the authors who've written for Rifts over the years would deny that it's a game which puts explosions first and philosophy a distant second.

I sort of took steps towards this although not on purpose but by my own logic, as flawed as it is.

I created a scale of evolution during the character creation process.

So long as you were human/human like (ie sdc mortal race) that had been on Rifts earth for at least 10 generations (200 years) then you could role on this table.

I had Highly Evolved (rare), Moderately Evolved (very uncommon), moderately evolved (pretty uncommon) and normal (everyone else). I did this based on the vast amounts of magic energy now permeating the planet.

EDIT - The above also have a higher chance of psionics/magic.

I say mgic because I also added something akin to teh minor psionic abilities randomly availble to humans as well. Minor is 2 spelss form level one major is 6 total from levels 1-3 or 8 from level 1. Sort of a minor mystic but not enough to be full blown magic user per se.

Check out the Eclipse Phase RPG (the .pdf torrent is legal) - an awesome Transhuman RPG.

jaymz wrote:I sort of took steps towards this although not on purpose but by my own logic, as flawed as it is.

I created a scale of evolution during the character creation process.

So long as you were human/human like (ie sdc mortal race) that had been on Rifts earth for at least 10 generations (200 years) then you could role on this table.

I had Highly Evolved (rare), Moderately Evolved (very uncommon), moderately evolved (pretty uncommon) and normal (everyone else). I did this based on the vast amounts of magic energy now permeating the planet.

EDIT - The above also have a higher chance of psionics/magic.

I say mgic because I also added something akin to teh minor psionic abilities randomly availble to humans as well. Minor is 2 spelss form level one major is 6 total from levels 1-3 or 8 from level 1. Sort of a minor mystic but not enough to be full blown magic user per se.

Charles Darwin is spinning in his grave.

Rallan wrote:

jaymz wrote:I sort of took steps towards this although not on purpose but by my own logic, as flawed as it is.

I created a scale of evolution during the character creation process.

So long as you were human/human like (ie sdc mortal race) that had been on Rifts earth for at least 10 generations (200 years) then you could role on this table.

I had Highly Evolved (rare), Moderately Evolved (very uncommon), moderately evolved (pretty uncommon) and normal (everyone else). I did this based on the vast amounts of magic energy now permeating the planet.

EDIT - The above also have a higher chance of psionics/magic.

I say mgic because I also added something akin to teh minor psionic abilities randomly availble to humans as well. Minor is 2 spelss form level one major is 6 total from levels 1-3 or 8 from level 1. Sort of a minor mystic but not enough to be full blown magic user per se.

Charles Darwin is spinning in his grave.

Beofre i take this as MUCH of an insult, care to elaborate rather than just state something?

basically, Evolution is a process of non-random selection apon random variables. the enviroment favors some traits and not others, so those traits it favors tend t become more widespread over the generations.

so the idea of "guided evolution" or the idea of "levels of evolution" are contrary to what darwin discovered and described, and later scientists further explained. all things are equalally evolved. it's just the types and complexity of traits they express differ.

while some Transhumanists hold to the idea of Eugenics (using selective processes to create a new version of humanity), they mainly see such as an example of the Evolution of technology alongside that of humanity. they beleive that man and machine will become so interlinked in interdependancy that where ever evolution ends up taking us, our forms will invariably include synthetic elements.

Rallan wrote:I think the definitions of posthuman and transhuman being used by the original poster are kinda fundamentally flawed. Especially since in Rifts, human augmentation is just there because it's cool and very very cyberpunk, not because any of the writers were trying to explore any deeper social/moral/philosophical ramifications of it all.

Plus you'll notice that in Rifts, virtually everyone treats human augmentation as a tool, not as a goal. Juicers, crazies, cyborgs, and so on are just attempts to enhance the body's performance in dangerous environments, they aren't trends that are being adopted in a big way by society as a whole (except for relatively minor amounts of cybernetics).

All in all, I'd say that trying to read posthumanism/transhumanism into the Rifts canon is just trying too hard to get too much depth from a relatively shadow product. Some places have androids and mutant animals fighting for them because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. Some people replace 90% of their body with bionics or doom themselves to a few brief years as a drug-enhanced supersoldier because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. And that's all there is to it.

and yet, there is also the stock scifi trope of the badass soldier who's been subtly augmented with nanites/synthetic implants/symbotic components. or the stock trope about the badass character who has had a computer added to their brain for greater intellegence and mental capabilities.

Time marches on, and new Tropes develop. why should the only method of making a survivable 'bionic' character be to throw away large parts of the body? why should all chemically enhanced warriors have to throw away all but 5 years of their lifespans? why should Mental implants sacrifice sanity? all of those are the result of the technology being used in extremis, the approach taken to sometimes illogical extremes in an effort to create a being with more power, but not nessecarily more character.

sure, transhumanist approaches (the JAEP in WB5 being a good example of such for chemical enhancemnt) may not be as powerful, but they certainly add more character to the Character. you expect a full conversion cyborg to be powerful. but the guy who used biosystem muscles to strengthen up, then had cyberarmor and enhanced senses installed is a chance for a more interesting roleplay experiance due to his lack of brute force options. the old adage is "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". when all you've got is brute force, everything looks like a solution solvable by brute force. but Transhumnist approaches would require Characters to consider (indeed rely on) more subtle methods. much like how their augmentations are far more subtle than the current RIFTS options.

would these be as popular? probably not. unlike Eclipse Phase, which manages to include both Post and Trans humanist approaches from the start, RIFTS has been forced into its current mold for a long time, and even after that mold is broken, it will retain it's current form. but by adding these alternative approaches, we can at least knock holes in that mold before the contents harden completely, give it a chance to adapt and grow in new ways...

i'm not saying RIFTS has to have any deep philosophy (although i have found that examining different philosophies to produce superior gaming material).

i'm just saying that we, as player, GM's, writers, and readers, should consider using some of these alternative approaches, as a way of adding more diversity to the game.

I've been tinkering with a high tech augmentation for Rifts that as a working title, I called the "Cyber-Nano Enhancement". The concept was based on a combination of genetic enhancement, nano-technology and cybernetic implants. The combination provides increases in physicals stats much like a juicer or crazy. Or perhaps more accurately, like the super-soldier option from Heroes Unlimited.

I never really thought of it in terms of trans or post humanism. I just wanted to create a form of augmentation that wasn't as externally obvious or internally invasive. In essence, a way to enhance a human without losing any humanity. It's something I think Rifts could use more of, if only because it would provide more options to those that play the game.

It would be interesting to see other peoples ideas on human augmentation without the loss of humanity.

the core difference is, as far as i can tell;
Transhumanist philosophy seeks augmentation of mind, body, and 'soul' without sacrificing control over said.
posthumanist philosophy assumes that you must sacrifice one or more of those to achaive improvements.

as a result, Transhumanist philosophy tends to result in more subtle, less potent enhancements. currently, these are all curative in nature, but they don't have to be.

in your example..bio-systems are a tech certainly derived fro ma Trans-H philosophy. while the mechanical forms are more derived fro m a post-H. remeber that technology is nuetral though, it's how it's employed that makes the difference.

juicer tech probably started as a trans-H derived system..but in it's application, the user sacrifices his body to achaive his augmentation. this makes it a post-H derived type. but a JAEP user preserves his control over his body, making it more of a Trans-H.
crazies mind implants simiarly probably started as Trans-H, but because a crazy must sacrifice his sanity to acheive the enhancement, it's post-h derived type.

this is more of a spectrum than approach, but even viewing it as such opens up lots of new paths to explore in the game.

So the juicer/crazy v cyborg debate right?

Rallan wrote:I think the definitions of posthuman and transhuman being used by the original poster are kinda fundamentally flawed. Especially since in Rifts, human augmentation is just there because it's cool and very very cyberpunk, not because any of the writers were trying to explore any deeper social/moral/philosophical ramifications of it all.

Plus you'll notice that in Rifts, virtually everyone treats human augmentation as a tool, not as a goal. Juicers, crazies, cyborgs, and so on are just attempts to enhance the body's performance in dangerous environments, they aren't trends that are being adopted in a big way by society as a whole (except for relatively minor amounts of cybernetics).

All in all, I'd say that trying to read posthumanism/transhumanism into the Rifts canon is just trying too hard to get too much depth from a relatively shadow product. Some places have androids and mutant animals fighting for them because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. Some people replace 90% of their body with bionics or doom themselves to a few brief years as a drug-enhanced supersoldier because it's badass and it's a stock science fiction trope. And that's all there is to it.

I was just about to type in a response along these lines....but Rallan pretty much covered it all.

"Cyborg" is a lot cooler than "Altess" to the average Gamer because, well.........you can see the difference.

Which is all that the Authors wanted -hence almost no discussion in-game of the very "transhuman" elements such as those that exist in Chi-Town (the 'super-vitamins' that let humans be as healthy as teenagers almost until the day they die -in about 200 years).

Hairy_Homebrewer3.25 wrote:Such a topic is not without a 'fuzzy line' however... and that is where we begin to discuss what we perceive the term 'human' really means. If we did delve into that arena, I must say, I am far too cynical to be taken seriously. The point being, that 'Post-human' is the term for the result of a conscious being having transcended humanity to the point that he/she/it is no longer (but retains a semblance of) human, while 'Trans-human' refers to being in a state of augmentation, while still being considered 'human' to some extent or another.

and this is a good example of a post-human viewpoint. Posthmanist thinkers tend to assume transhumanism is merely a stepping stone to a post-human result, much the same way that in politics marxists assume socialism is merely a stepping stone towards true communism.

but many transhumanists disagree, perceiving transhumanity as a goal in itself, and denying the idea that a Post-human state is desireable. for these, the required sacrifice of what we are to acheive a post-human state is an abborrent idea.

The Idea of trans-humanism/post-human states are to philosophically and physically ascend beyond, or improve upon the 'human' condition. The setting in Rifts, is generally post-apocalyptic. The ramifications of such an apocalypse imply that the luxuries of civilization are, and have been, absent for a long time.
The ability to survive as a trans/post-human without some kind of competitive edge, would have rendered the post/trans-humans without combat capabilities ineffective at survival, especially if said trans/post-humans require costly maintenance.
The persons with such modifications should be rare (but not absent altogether), as upkeep would commonly (though not always) require large costs, and only those with power/luxuries/resources specific to the type of trans/post-human states, during such turbulent times, would have the capacity to maintain the existence of the trans/post-humans.

however, many of the technologies behind transhumanist approaches can be applied to survival or combat, without havign to resort to a posthumanist approach. synthetic muscle implants for example, where artifical muscle fibers are used to enhance normal strength, could give a person the strength of a juicer without the need to cut their life short. nano-technological symbiotes could accellerate healing similarly. brain implants to enhance memory, balance, even sensory acuity can be employed without sacrificing sanity. (these would not effect brain chemistry, like MOM tech)

combine several combinations and you can obtain a very effective transhumanist combat enhancement. strong, heals fast, better able to fight...toss on some cyber-armor and you'd have a decent fighter.

and genetic enhancements could simialry be employed without making the individual something non-human.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the core difference is, as far as i can tell;
Transhumanist philosophy seeks augmentation of mind, body, and 'soul' without sacrificing control over said.
posthumanist philosophy assumes that you must sacrifice one or more of those to achaive improvements.

as a result, Transhumanist philosophy tends to result in more subtle, less potent enhancements. currently, these are all curative in nature, but they don't have to be.

in your example..bio-systems are a tech certainly derived fro ma Trans-H philosophy. while the mechanical forms are more derived fro m a post-H. remeber that technology is nuetral though, it's how it's employed that makes the difference.

juicer tech probably started as a trans-H derived system..but in it's application, the user sacrifices his body to achaive his augmentation. this makes it a post-H derived type. but a JAEP user preserves his control over his body, making it more of a Trans-H.
crazies mind implants simiarly probably started as Trans-H, but because a crazy must sacrifice his sanity to acheive the enhancement, it's post-h derived type.

this is more of a spectrum than approach, but even viewing it as such opens up lots of new paths to explore in the game.

A summary in two pithy slogans.

Transhumanism is about changing ourselves with technology so we can be better people.

Posthumanism is about changing ourselves with technology until we're better than people.

Rallan wrote:A summary in two pithy slogans.

Transhumanism is about changing ourselves with technology so we can be better people.

Posthumanism is about changing ourselves with technology until we're better than people.

and the technology focus is heavily effected by those philosophies.
Transhumanists focuses on things like life extension, wetware interfaces, cloning, regeneration, medical genetic correction.
Posthumanists focus on things like cybernetic prosthetics, mind uploading, genetic alteration.

RIFTS has far more of the later than the former.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Rallan wrote:A summary in two pithy slogans.

Transhumanism is about changing ourselves with technology so we can be better people.

Posthumanism is about changing ourselves with technology until we're better than people.

and the technology focus is heavily effected by those philosophies.
Transhumanists focuses on things like life extension, wetware interfaces, cloning, regeneration, medical genetic correction.
Posthumanists focus on things like cybernetic prosthetics, mind uploading, genetic alteration.

RIFTS has far more of the later than the former.

The technology focus is irrelevant, because posthumanism (as it applies to transhumanism) is more of a what-if concern than movement within the transhumanist ideology. Individual transhumanists have their own personal favourite ideas, but transhumanism itself doesn't have some arbitrary dividing line between biological improvements and mechanical/electronic improvements. And the idea of deliberately improving the human race to the point where it's no longer human, or of replacing it with superior synthetic life forms, is something that really doesn't get much exploration anywhere except by people arguing the case for why transhumanism is a scary ideology.