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Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:37 am
by Soldier of Od
Hi everybody,
So, am I reading this right?:
I thought I'd roll up a Headhunter, because, as suggested in their write-up, they get 'the best of both worlds'; I wanted the skills of a merc or bounty hunter, but with a bit of bionics just to add a little something extra to the character. Maybe a strong bionic arm so I can use the NG grenade launcher pistol or similar. However, when I came to the bionic limbs, I was unpleasantly surprised:
All of the attributes for replacement legs and arms start at 10. I get 10,000 credits to spend on upgrading the attributes for my bionic limbs. It costs 2,000 credits for each attribute point added. So, that's a total of only five extra points possible, distributed between all my limbs? If I went the whole hog and had two bionic arms and two bionic legs, I would have a total of eight different attributes that need boosting (P.S. and P.P. for each arm and P.S. and Spd. for each leg). Barely worth adding anything. Even if I opted for only one bionic limb, the best I could to is boost a single attribute to 15; not even enough to provide bonuses, and leaving the other one at a measly 10.
Even with average rolls and only a couple of physical skills, it is reasonable to expect the Headhunter to have much better physical attributes naturally, without resorting to bionics. These replacements are supposed to be modifications purposefully made by the Headhunter as improvements, not just cybernetics to replace missing parts. But they are, at best, equal to an average human, and realistically, much lower than your average merc or the Headhunter's non-bionic limbs.
What's the deal here? Am I missing something?
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:56 am
by dragonfett
I personally like having my bionic limb choice being an extra bionic limb (or a pair if the GM allows it as being one single package).
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:00 am
by The Galactus Kid
Talk to your GM and explain the situation. Maybe he will let you start with one souped up limb already. Also, you can have basic limbs and then upgrade them as you earn more money.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:30 am
by jedi078
I had a player roll (I forget what) to determine how much money he had to spend on upgrades. Worked out just fine.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:19 am
by The Dark Elf
I would become a cyber snatcher.
Or you could ask your fairy god mother to sprinkle fairy dust over your bionic arm in the hopes that one day it will become a real arm and not just some high school science lab pulley system.
Instead of the $6 million man you can become the $6 man but you have to make your own wub wub wub wub wub noises when your arm moves.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:57 pm
by Prysus
Greetings and Salutations. First, I'll say I'm not sure which book you're using. I happen to have my R:UE (3rd Printing) available, and as the most recent book it's the most updated. Because you want the Techno-Warrior who are Partial 'Borgs option.
1) You have a weapon for the hand or wrist, and one weapon or tool for the forearm. This is built-in and free of charge. Since a normal human arm doesn't have weapons built into it (beyond brute strength/muscle) this is an advantage.
2) Your spending cost is 2D6x1,000+10,000. Roll well on the 2D6 and you will have enough to fully upgrade the bionic arm to a PS of 20 (it's max), and maybe still some extra credits for other upgrades. Note: You only start with one limb, so you don't have to worry about upgrading more than one.
3) The strength is "Augmented" instead of normal (or even extraordinary). Augmented Strength can inflict M.D. on a power punch. Normal strength can't do this, EVER. Now, technically the chart doesn't start until a P.S. of 24 (which the Headhunter can't have), but I believe that's meant to be "24 or less." I say this because A) 24 is a VERY specific number, and kind of odd to have only that one number there, B) earlier in the Augmented description it lists who can have Augmented Strength and states "can inflict Mega-Damage, but only on a power punch," C) I believe this is meant to be the standard benefit to Augmented Strength, since it gives no other bonuses such as lifting or carrying bonuses, and D) this is also mentions dealing M.D. in the Headhunter section (which would be a lie if it didn't start until 24, since Headhunters max out at 20 or 22, if bionic bones are also taken).
Those are just off the top of my head, and mind you I've never played a Headhunter, none of my players have ever played a Headhunter, and I have almost no experience with Rifts (I play more PF and homebrewed settings). Hopefully some of that helped. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:01 am
by Soldier of Od
So, from most of your posts so far, it is safe to say that I am reading it correctly then? That is all they get?
Prysus, thanks for your answer. I am using R:UE. In response:
1) Yeah, but it's not a big deal to have a built in weapon unless it is concealed and can be used for sneaking weapons in where they're not allowed. I think I'd rather have an arm that is my own and just hold my gun like everyone else than sacrifice it for a weedy replacement just so that I can attach a blaster directly to my wrist.
2) I don't have the book with me to check, but is that definitely correct on your point 2? I thought that it was 10,000 for boosting attributes only, and there was a roll for money for other bionic stuff only. Maybe I read it wrong. But that total is still the same if I were to go with all four limbs replaced, right? Which stretches the budget extremely thinly.
3) I thought about the same issue regarding power punches - I saw the section you mentioned in the Headhunter write-up saying that they could inflict M.D. and was very annoyed when I turned to the damage table to discover that no, I couldn't inflict M.D. as it was impossible for me to have a P.S. of 24! Thanks for your thoughts on that - Does anyone else agree with Prysus that the table should really read "24 or less" for inflicting one point of M.D. with a power punch?
Regarding Galactus Kid's comment about upgrading later - yes that is possible, but (as others have commented in the past) the vast majority of Rifts:UE O.C.C.s are very 'front heavy' in that they get all or most of their good stuff at level one. While I am more than happy with advancing as I gain experience (or money!), it seems unusual for this one O.C.C. to require this when others don't. I mean, I would need to earned thousands of credits just to get enough of an upgrade to make me average. That's just not right.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:22 am
by Dustin Fireblade
Soldier of Od wrote:
2) I don't have the book with me to check, but is that definitely correct on your point 2? I thought that it was 10,000 for boosting attributes only, and there was a roll for money for other bionic stuff only. Maybe I read it wrong. But that total is still the same if I were to go with all four limbs replaced, right? Which stretches the budget extremely thinly.
It can be used for anything - boosting attributes or buying new bionics.
Soldier of Od wrote:3) I thought about the same issue regarding power punches - I saw the section you mentioned in the Headhunter write-up saying that they could inflict M.D. and was very annoyed when I turned to the damage table to discover that no, I couldn't inflict M.D. as it was impossible for me to have a P.S. of 24! Thanks for your thoughts on that - Does anyone else agree with Prysus that the table should really read "24 or less" for inflicting one point of M.D. with a power punch?
I would agree with that - the other tables say "x score or less"
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:41 pm
by Prysus
Soldier of Od wrote:Prysus, thanks for your answer. I am using R:UE. In response:
1) Yeah, but it's not a big deal to have a built in weapon unless it is concealed and can be used for sneaking weapons in where they're not allowed. I think I'd rather have an arm that is my own and just hold my gun like everyone else than sacrifice it for a weedy replacement just so that I can attach a blaster directly to my wrist.
Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll admit I always figured they'd be concealed. I mean, come on, who doesn't want a set of Wolverine claws? However, there are a few benefits to having the attached weapon.
1) You can't be disarmed, unless you're literally
disarmed.
2) Damage to the arm won't cause blood loss (okay, PB doesn't go too much into this anyways, so not a big deal really).
3) You can hold two weapons at once. Now, this probably won't do you much good if you have a forearm blaster and holding a gun. I doubt you'll be able to fire both with any type of accuracy. However, if one is a ranged weapon and one is a bladed weapon, you can fire and still parry melee attacks without switching weapons. They're both right there, readily available. I know this may not sound like much, but it's something to be considered.
4) Concealed weapons. Now, this likely will only get you so far. If they don't allow weapons into an area and they notice you have a bionic arm, they're probably going to check. The main advantage is when they don't check (which means it's probably not that big of a deal in the first place), or when doing something as simple as walking down the street. Wearing a coat (or long sleeve shirt) and gloves no one may even notice. Then they're there for a nice surprise attack. Granted, I'm a guy who loves stealth and the element of surprise, so this may not be as fun for everyone.
Anyways, just a few thoughts on the matter I figured to include.
Edit:: 5) You can only parry an MD weapon with an MD item (I believe). Since the Bionic arm is MD in nature, it should be able to parry a MD blade without the need of a weapon in hand. Just another random thought. Graet if you're caught off guard.
Soldier of Od wrote:2) I don't have the book with me to check, but is that definitely correct on your point 2? I thought that it was 10,000 for boosting attributes only, and there was a roll for money for other bionic stuff only. Maybe I read it wrong. But that total is still the same if I were to go with all four limbs replaced, right? Which stretches the budget extremely thinly.
Yeah, I'm sure. It's that much for boosting attribute bonuses, buying additional features, or saving for future repairs. I know, I know, it won't help much if you divide it into four limbs, right? However, there is a catch to that. You want to know what that catch is? By the write-up, you can't start with four limbs. Limbs are expensive (and I don't believe you can afford them even if you roll a 12 for 22,000 credits start up), and you only start with one. So, as written, you only need to upgrade one because that's all you have to start. Page 77 states the options for start up, and it's only one limb (as written).
Now, if a GM allows you to have all your limbs, then he may also want to increase that budget. However, for just one limb, the budget isn't too bad for start up. Though if you really want all your limbs to be bionic then it may just be easier to go with the Full Conversion Borg option. I know, the skill list wouldn't be as nice, but it'll have much better bionic options to choose from (I think, I've never technically compared). It'll also let you bypass that maximum PS 20 limit.
Anyways, hope some of that helps. For note, I'm not doing this to argue with you. I'm just trying to provide options and things you may not have considered. In the end, I just hope you can find something that makes sense to you and makes you happy. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:59 am
by Soldier of Od
Prysus wrote:Soldier of Od wrote:Prysus, thanks for your answer. I am using R:UE. In response:
1) Yeah, but it's not a big deal to have a built in weapon unless it is concealed and can be used for sneaking weapons in where they're not allowed. I think I'd rather have an arm that is my own and just hold my gun like everyone else than sacrifice it for a weedy replacement just so that I can attach a blaster directly to my wrist.
Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll admit I always figured they'd be concealed. I mean, come on, who doesn't want a set of Wolverine claws? However, there are a few benefits to having the attached weapon.
1) You can't be disarmed, unless you're literally
disarmed.
2) Damage to the arm won't cause blood loss (okay, PB doesn't go too much into this anyways, so not a big deal really).
3) You can hold two weapons at once. Now, this probably won't do you much good if you have a forearm blaster and holding a gun. I doubt you'll be able to fire both with any type of accuracy. However, if one is a ranged weapon and one is a bladed weapon, you can fire and still parry melee attacks without switching weapons. They're both right there, readily available. I know this may not sound like much, but it's something to be considered.
4) Concealed weapons. Now, this likely will only get you so far. If they don't allow weapons into an area and they notice you have a bionic arm, they're probably going to check. The main advantage is when they don't check (which means it's probably not that big of a deal in the first place), or when doing something as simple as walking down the street. Wearing a coat (or long sleeve shirt) and gloves no one may even notice. Then they're there for a nice surprise attack. Granted, I'm a guy who loves stealth and the element of surprise, so this may not be as fun for everyone.
Anyways, just a few thoughts on the matter I figured to include.
Edit:: 5) You can only parry an MD weapon with an MD item (I believe). Since the Bionic arm is MD in nature, it should be able to parry a MD blade without the need of a weapon in hand. Just another random thought. Graet if you're caught off guard.
Soldier of Od wrote:2) I don't have the book with me to check, but is that definitely correct on your point 2? I thought that it was 10,000 for boosting attributes only, and there was a roll for money for other bionic stuff only. Maybe I read it wrong. But that total is still the same if I were to go with all four limbs replaced, right? Which stretches the budget extremely thinly.
Yeah, I'm sure. It's that much for boosting attribute bonuses, buying additional features, or saving for future repairs. I know, I know, it won't help much if you divide it into four limbs, right? However, there is a catch to that. You want to know what that catch is? By the write-up, you can't start with four limbs. Limbs are expensive (and I don't believe you can afford them even if you roll a 12 for 22,000 credits start up), and you only start with one. So, as written, you only need to upgrade one because that's all you have to start. Page 77 states the options for start up, and it's only one limb (as written).
Now, if a GM allows you to have all your limbs, then he may also want to increase that budget. However, for just one limb, the budget isn't too bad for start up. Though if you really want all your limbs to be bionic then it may just be easier to go with the Full Conversion Borg option. I know, the skill list wouldn't be as nice, but it'll have much better bionic options to choose from (I think, I've never technically compared). It'll also let you bypass that maximum PS 20 limit.
Anyways, hope some of that helps. For note, I'm not doing this to argue with you. I'm just trying to provide options and things you may not have considered. In the end, I just hope you can find something that makes sense to you and makes you happy. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
I didn't think for a second that you were just trying to argue with me! I asked for information and opinions and that's what I got! You've made some good points, thank you. And I hope you don't think that if I'm questioning or commenting on your comments that I am just trying to argue with you!
I was sure that one of the options for Headhunter was to have a partial conversion "all four limbs" effectively for free if that was what the player wanted. Like Dr. Shiny says, I thought they'd given that option for Headhunters to be a replacement for partial conversion borgs. But I guess I really need to take another look at the book to check my facts before formulating a proper response.
Thanks.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:54 am
by dragonfett
Well, going by the book, you only get one bionic limb to start with.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:46 am
by Prysus
Soldier of Od wrote:I didn't think for a second that you were just trying to argue with me! I asked for information and opinions and that's what I got! You've made some good points, thank you. And I hope you don't think that if I'm questioning or commenting on your comments that I am just trying to argue with you!
I was sure that one of the options for Headhunter was to have a partial conversion "all four limbs" effectively for free if that was what the player wanted. Like Dr. Shiny says, I thought they'd given that option for Headhunters to be a replacement for partial conversion borgs. But I guess I really need to take another look at the book to check my facts before formulating a proper response.
Thanks.
Greetings and Salutations. Glad we're both on the same page with information. I've just had bad misunderstandings with people online before. Some have ended in bad feelings and insults (or felt it happened in the reverse). So I try to clarify once in a while just to be sure and help cut off ill intent before it may start.
As for Headhunters replacing Partial Conversion 'Borgs, part of the problem is that the information for Partial Conversion 'Borgs is placed in the middle of the Headhunter O.C.C. Of course, Headhunters and Partial 'Borgs is kind of another topic, one that was once discussed "ad nauseum." If curious, the topic is about a year old and discusses whether or not Headhunters are all Partial 'Borgs or not (
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=110628 ). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:21 am
by kmspade
Yeah, the way I'm reading the Headhunter OCC, I'd say they really gimped that up. Sad that in the game designer note it says they tried to correct it. I'd say it's still FUBAR. I mean, why put the partial conversion borg stats in the headhunter OCC if you go on to say (on p.77) that they can only have one limb and whatever implants, and a crappy upgrade budget?? And that's the correction?? Hahaha! Doesn't make a damn bit of sense. I'd say, if the player wants to be a partial conversion borg headhunter, and the partial conversion borg stats are listed
under the headhunter OCC, then the headhunter should be allowed the partial conversion.
Anyway, if I was your GM (and I GM two different groups) I would give you 2d6x
10,000 +10,000 for the bionic upgrade fund. Cause yeah, It doesn't make any sense to have all those bionic limbs and not have them upgraded. Or if you went with only the one limb option, it would be a fully upgraded limb.
If your GM doesn't allow that, I would check out the Headhunter Techno-Warrior OCC, and the other Headhunter OCC's in Rifts Canada. They don't say what the attributes start at, but they don't say they start at the lowest possible either. Again, that would be a GM call. But in my opinion, if you only get one limb, it should be a fully upgraded one.
Another option would be the CS Cyborg Strike Trooper in CWC. It says they can be full or partial conversion. I would go with the partial conversion, and use the stats for the partial conversion borg option #2 as described in the Bionics Sourcebook on p.74. That will gain you 400,000 for upgrades. Of course if you want to be a headhunter, that would mean you're a renegade CS borg, and will likely have a price on your head, but hey, that's just one more plot element for your GM to have fun with.
Hope this helps.
Re: Headhunter bionic limbs
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:53 am
by Soldier of Od
Oh, yeah, I see now - after re-reading it, it does clearly say on page 77 that you only start with one limb. My bad. I initially thought that the bit that said "60% of headhunters are partial conversion borgs with all four limbs replaced" (or something similar), and then goes on to describe in detail what partial conversion borgs get, including section 8, which specifically mentions headhunters, that this was an option if the player wanted it. Silly me.
In my opinion, the rules for partial borgs should have been left in the borg section, and only referenced in the headhunter O.C.C. description, if mentioned at all. From first edition, I always thought of headhunters as being pretty much a straight merc or a bounty hunter, just with a cool name to differentiate it from other games/films etc. and with a bit of bionics just to give the Rifts 'merc' an edge when working alongside juicers and crazies etc. That was fine with me, but with the addition of a Bounty Hunter O.C.C. and a Merc. O.C.C. in later books and now the main book, it kind of leaves the Headhunter with nothing to do. Perhaps that's why they tried to push the 'likes bionics' side of the character, but by doing so and then not letting the O.C.C. get any more bionics than before seems a bit of a bad fix to me.
Anyway, I still think that it's a bit stingey - with a maximum roll for extra money, I can only improve my arm to a P.P. of 15 and a P.S. of 16 (or a combination thereof), provided I spend all my money on attributes only. Not bad, but hardly superhuman, and quite possibly lower than the strength of my normal arm! With a low roll, I can only raise them both to 13. Rubbish.
Thanks for all your input!
P.S. I watched 'For a Few Dollars More' the other day. Good old Clint gets into a scrap in a bar whilst wearing his big old poncho, and beats the guy up with one arm only, as the other arm is hidden under his poncho (and on his gun) at all times. Made me think that's what it must be like to see a guy with only one bionic arm do his stuff!