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I wanted to get the official word on this because I can't find it anywhere in the books.

When combining a game that uses chi like N&SS with another game that uses P.P.E. like any other game that has magic, would adding cybernetics to somebody reduce the amount of chi in the same way that it does with P.P.E.?

If so, then by how much?

there are no rules concerning this in my edition of N&S. However as a GM I would have to say yes cybernetics and bionics would indeed interfere with CHI. as to rate? use the rules for which ever genre you have chosen to play.

Bones wrote:I wanted to get the official word on this because I can't find it anywhere in the books.

When combining a game that uses chi like N&SS with another game that uses P.P.E. like any other game that has magic, would adding cybernetics to somebody reduce the amount of chi in the same way that it does with P.P.E.?

If so, then by how much?

Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Yup.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Yup.

while strictly book correct this seems strongly unbalancing (even by palladium standards).
I would suggest using the Magic and Psionics reductions as a guideline for chi reduction.
However that is a HOUSE RULE not canon.

Canon is bionics have no effect on chi.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Yup.

while strictly book correct this seems strongly unbalancing (even by palladium standards).
I would suggest using the Magic and Psionics reductions as a guideline for chi reduction.
However that is a HOUSE RULE not canon.

Canon is bionics have no effect on chi.

Not really all that unbalancing. in N&SS, they had a very limited selection of avaible martial arts styles, only one or two gave any chi powers, and those didn't grant much. A sensible GM would be similarly restrictive and limit them to only to styles that give minimal chi ability.

The issue is more this, I think. Martial arts require a significant investment of Time, reflected by the fact that all martial arts have a minimum number of years of training needed to gain even first level proficency. The martial art studied always reflects the personality of the one who studies it, because humans in general don't keep at something for years and years that's completly optional if they don't think it's a good way to do things.

This forms the core of the divide in N&SS between "Soft" styles focuing on internal and chi development and "Hard" styles focusing purely on physical power.

If you honestly went though Full Bionic Conversion, odds are you are already firmly in the camp of "Hard" school of though where problems are best solved though precice application of raw power. It's very doubtful that most conversion borgs are even interested in developing "Magic" powers, which is what most people would likely consider Chi powers, not understanding the technical differences.

Now it's not and has never been an either/or proposition. There are schools which focus entirely on physical development (Tae Kwon Do), and a few that focus entirey on internal development (Touch mastery, Snake Style), but the majority fall in between these two extremes. Some styles (like Kyoskyno Karate) enitre purpose is to provide it's adherents with a balance between Hard power and soft subtlety.

The few styles avaible to the cyborg class, are all hard styles, with only a couple of them offering minimal chi ability at higher levels as a degree of rounding them out.

So your still perfectly valid in limiting a Cyborgs selection of martial arts to restrict chi powers, without actually limiting their ability to focus Chi. The limits are psycological. If you don't beleive you can or should, they won't, regardless of ability. Most cyborgs would find Chi mastery unnatural and difficult to learn anyway.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Yup.

while strictly book correct this seems strongly unbalancing (even by palladium standards).
I would suggest using the Magic and Psionics reductions as a guideline for chi reduction.
However that is a HOUSE RULE not canon.

Canon is bionics have no effect on chi.

Not really all that unbalancing. in N&SS, they had a very limited selection of avaible martial arts styles, only one or two gave any chi powers, and those didn't grant much. A sensible GM would be similarly restrictive and limit them to only to styles that give minimal chi ability.

The issue is more this, I think. Martial arts require a significant investment of Time, reflected by the fact that all martial arts have a minimum number of years of training needed to gain even first level proficency. The martial art studied always reflects the personality of the one who studies it, because humans in general don't keep at something for years and years that's completly optional if they don't think it's a good way to do things.

This forms the core of the divide in N&SS between "Soft" styles focuing on internal and chi development and "Hard" styles focusing purely on physical power.

If you honestly went though Full Bionic Conversion, odds are you are already firmly in the camp of "Hard" school of though where problems are best solved though precice application of raw power. It's very doubtful that most conversion borgs are even interested in developing "Magic" powers, which is what most people would likely consider Chi powers, not understanding the technical differences.

Now it's not and has never been an either/or proposition. There are schools which focus entirely on physical development (Tae Kwon Do), and a few that focus entirey on internal development (Touch mastery, Snake Style), but the majority fall in between these two extremes. Some styles (like Kyoskyno Karate) enitre purpose is to provide it's adherents with a balance between Hard power and soft subtlety.

The few styles avaible to the cyborg class, are all hard styles, with only a couple of them offering minimal chi ability at higher levels as a degree of rounding them out.

So your still perfectly valid in limiting a Cyborgs selection of martial arts to restrict chi powers, without actually limiting their ability to focus Chi. The limits are psycological. If you don't beleive you can or should, they won't, regardless of ability. Most cyborgs would find Chi mastery unnatural and difficult to learn anyway.

while I agree with your assessment. It only addresses 1/2 of the subject. simply put what about a chi master (Tien-Hsueh [level 8]) who (through an admittedly complex and highly unlikely set of circumstances) undergoes forced conversion (improbable but possible [especially in Rifts])? Assuming an "average" base chi of 11, (doubled at 1st level) 22, (doubled at 4th) 44, (doubled at 8th) 88, considering the average cost of chi abilities is 1 chi per action thats rather powerful... add on to those chi powers the abilities of a now Bionically enhanced body and I hope you can agree that it does become a bit excessive.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever. a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever. Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

Yup.

while strictly book correct this seems strongly unbalancing (even by palladium standards).
I would suggest using the Magic and Psionics reductions as a guideline for chi reduction.
However that is a HOUSE RULE not canon.

Canon is bionics have no effect on chi.

Not really all that unbalancing. in N&SS, they had a very limited selection of avaible martial arts styles, only one or two gave any chi powers, and those didn't grant much. A sensible GM would be similarly restrictive and limit them to only to styles that give minimal chi ability.

The issue is more this, I think. Martial arts require a significant investment of Time, reflected by the fact that all martial arts have a minimum number of years of training needed to gain even first level proficency. The martial art studied always reflects the personality of the one who studies it, because humans in general don't keep at something for years and years that's completly optional if they don't think it's a good way to do things.

This forms the core of the divide in N&SS between "Soft" styles focuing on internal and chi development and "Hard" styles focusing purely on physical power.

If you honestly went though Full Bionic Conversion, odds are you are already firmly in the camp of "Hard" school of though where problems are best solved though precice application of raw power. It's very doubtful that most conversion borgs are even interested in developing "Magic" powers, which is what most people would likely consider Chi powers, not understanding the technical differences.

Now it's not and has never been an either/or proposition. There are schools which focus entirely on physical development (Tae Kwon Do), and a few that focus entirey on internal development (Touch mastery, Snake Style), but the majority fall in between these two extremes. Some styles (like Kyoskyno Karate) enitre purpose is to provide it's adherents with a balance between Hard power and soft subtlety.

The few styles avaible to the cyborg class, are all hard styles, with only a couple of them offering minimal chi ability at higher levels as a degree of rounding them out.

So your still perfectly valid in limiting a Cyborgs selection of martial arts to restrict chi powers, without actually limiting their ability to focus Chi. The limits are psycological. If you don't beleive you can or should, they won't, regardless of ability. Most cyborgs would find Chi mastery unnatural and difficult to learn anyway.

while I agree with your assessment. It only addresses 1/2 of the subject. simply put what about a chi master (Tien-Hsueh [level 8]) who (through an admittedly complex and highly unlikely set of circumstances) undergoes forced conversion (improbable but possible [especially in Rifts])? Assuming an "average" base chi of 11, (doubled at 1st level) 22, (doubled at 4th) 44, (doubled at 8th) 88, considering the average cost of chi abilities is 1 chi per action thats rather powerful... add on to those chi powers the abilities of a now Bionically enhanced body and I hope you can agree that it does become a bit excessive.

I dunno, remember Tien Hiseu, more than any other art, is focused on mastering pressice application of force though just a couple of finger attacks. considering a full cyborg retains less than 50% touch sensitivity, I would rule that they would find the entire martial art unuseable. They might retain knowlage of chi powers, but it's doubtful they could use them effectively. and they certaintly would lose the fine control required for Dim Mak.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I dunno, remember Tien Hiseu, more than any other art, is focused on mastering pressice application of force though just a couple of finger attacks. considering a full cyborg retains less than 50% touch sensitivity, I would rule that they would find the entire martial art unuseable. They might retain knowlage of chi powers, but it's doubtful they could use them effectively. and they certaintly would lose the fine control required for Dim Mak.

no most people tend to ignore the chi mastery abilities is all... they can select up to 4 abilities at level 1 and receive additional abilities as the art progresses. however would you want a borg to have Hardened chi or fist gesture or even find weakness? heck forget chi powers, a Tien-Hsueh can select powers of invisibility a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Damian Magecraft wrote: a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Okay, I'm the guy always complaining about munchkinism, power creep, and general lack of balance, but I just find the idea of a borg with mystic invisibility to be awesome.


One thought, though.
In Rifts, I don't believe that Full Conversion Borgs have a PE score, and Chi is based on PE, isn't it?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote: a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Okay, I'm the guy always complaining about munchkinism, power creep, and general lack of balance, but I just find the idea of a borg with mystic invisibility to be awesome.


One thought, though.
In Rifts, I don't believe that Full Conversion Borgs have a PE score, and Chi is based on PE, isn't it?

yes...
but technically chi does not exist in Rifts (see CB1 2e, China 1 and 2) CB1 suggests converting all powers to psi (dont get me started on that issue [probably the only one I agree with the "rules are broken" crowd about])

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote: a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Okay, I'm the guy always complaining about munchkinism, power creep, and general lack of balance, but I just find the idea of a borg with mystic invisibility to be awesome.


One thought, though.
In Rifts, I don't believe that Full Conversion Borgs have a PE score, and Chi is based on PE, isn't it?

I don't know where people get that Full conversion cyborgs have no PE score. Bionics don't provide a PE score because they don't modify it any. They still have the PE score they rolled when they rolled all 8 attributes.

The Character generation system is very specific. Roll 8 attributes, then pick an OCC. the Bionics OCC modifies certain physical attributes to match the abilities of the new limbs. PE is not modified in any way, increased or subtracted, Ergo, the PE attribute is exsactly the same as it was before the OCC was selected and still counts for purposes of saving vs magic and similar.

Just because some people pick OCC first and roll attributes second dosn't mean that the rules don't clearly demonstrate they had a PE score before the character was cyborgized, bionics do not modify PE score in any way, ergo, the PE is wahtever was rolled origionally.

Bones wrote:I wanted to get the official word on this because I can't find it anywhere in the books.

When combining a game that uses chi like N&SS with another game that uses P.P.E. like any other game that has magic, would adding cybernetics to somebody reduce the amount of chi in the same way that it does with P.P.E.?

If so, then by how much?

Thanks Bones for starting this cool thread!

I actually took another look at the P.P.E. reduction rule for getting cybernetics. I only got one limb replaced and one implant. So, it didn't even matter in the first place. If chi was supposed to be used in the same way as P.P.E. then I still would not have to reduce either one. I guess it's all a moot point anyways. I'm glad I could start such a debate though.

Abub wrote:i forget... do bionics effect psionics? I would say Chi is much closer to ISP then PPS

Chi is Closer to PPE then the unaffiliated ISP. [In other words, Chi is not anywhere related to ISP]
(please do not bring up the Frel from Rifts China, RC was made to be different from everything else, so anything from there can not be used as the basis to support using the RC rules outside of RC.)

All the data about what affects Chi is found in the N&S book, and there are augmented classes that get MAF w/o any penalties.

The one type of cybernetic augmentation that would have an effect on Chi are those that use chemicals to affect the user's body (such as a juicer drug harness). When the drugs are in use the penalties for chi use would follow those for how alcohol affects chi use.

Yes, there would probably be lots of chemicals and hormones and injections of stem cells so that new nerve cells would grow to attach to the cybernetic links. But once the operation and physical therapy is finished then the chemicals shouldn't be necessary. It should work just like a normal piece of the body.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote: a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Okay, I'm the guy always complaining about munchkinism, power creep, and general lack of balance, but I just find the idea of a borg with mystic invisibility to be awesome.


One thought, though.
In Rifts, I don't believe that Full Conversion Borgs have a PE score, and Chi is based on PE, isn't it?

yes...
but technically chi does not exist in Rifts (see CB1 2e, China 1 and 2) CB1 suggests converting all powers to psi (dont get me started on that issue [probably the only one I agree with the "rules are broken" crowd about])

and then to add more fun to the mix, Rifts Japan uses PPE for Chi.

The best move is to ignore both and convert both to use Chi.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote: a borg with mystic invisibility (1 chi per melee and 1 more for each action) again strikes me as excessive.

Okay, I'm the guy always complaining about munchkinism, power creep, and general lack of balance, but I just find the idea of a borg with mystic invisibility to be awesome.


One thought, though.
In Rifts, I don't believe that Full Conversion Borgs have a PE score, and Chi is based on PE, isn't it?

yes...
but technically chi does not exist in Rifts (see CB1 2e, China 1 and 2) CB1 suggests converting all powers to psi (dont get me started on that issue [probably the only one I agree with the "rules are broken" crowd about])

and then to add more fun to the mix, Rifts Japan uses PPE for Chi.

The best move is to ignore both and convert both to use Chi.

yeah well thats what happens when you let some one who has no understanding of the mechanic (talking about CJ here not Big Kev) try to incorporate it into the setting. I am not sure why Kevin chose to have Erick exclude it from China but it is his decision to make.

Just to add one more monkey to the barrel, don't forget the Three Galaxies Oni Ninja 'Ki' abilities, which are said to be equivalent to N&SS martial arts chi abilities in the description, and recommends the inclusion of N&SS martial arts into Phase World and the Three Galaxies. Burns ISP.
As for cybernetics, Oni Ninja start with none, and avoid them, but no mention of penalties from their use.

Armorlord wrote:Just to add one more monkey to the barrel, don't forget the Three Galaxies Oni Ninja 'Ki' abilities, which are said to be equivalent to N&SS martial arts chi abilities in the description, and recommends the inclusion of N&SS martial arts into Phase World and the Three Galaxies. Burns ISP.
As for cybernetics, Oni Ninja start with none, and avoid them, but no mention of penalties from their use.

They are similar but unrelated, so this dosn't really effect anything.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Armorlord wrote:Just to add one more monkey to the barrel, don't forget the Three Galaxies Oni Ninja 'Ki' abilities, which are said to be equivalent to N&SS martial arts chi abilities in the description, and recommends the inclusion of N&SS martial arts into Phase World and the Three Galaxies. Burns ISP.
As for cybernetics, Oni Ninja start with none, and avoid them, but no mention of penalties from their use.

They are similar but unrelated, so this dosn't really effect anything.

Though it is interesting that despite having a different name and burning a different fuel the description claims that it is related to N&SS chi, specifically.

Armorlord wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Armorlord wrote:Just to add one more monkey to the barrel, don't forget the Three Galaxies Oni Ninja 'Ki' abilities, which are said to be equivalent to N&SS martial arts chi abilities in the description, and recommends the inclusion of N&SS martial arts into Phase World and the Three Galaxies. Burns ISP.
As for cybernetics, Oni Ninja start with none, and avoid them, but no mention of penalties from their use.

They are similar but unrelated, so this dosn't really effect anything.

Though it is interesting that despite having a different name and burning a different fuel the description claims that it is related to N&SS chi, specifically.

that's not what it actually says. What it says is that they are considered equivlent in purpose, not that they are in any way similar.

Bones wrote:When combining a game that uses chi like N&SS with another game that uses P.P.E. like any other game that has magic, would adding cybernetics to somebody reduce the amount of chi in the same way that it does with P.P.E.?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever.

Correct. Which is kind of unfortunate as you could have some interesting repercussions from a ruling about this.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever.

Actually, the "Man Machine option" -- the one that has major parts of the characters body replaced by cybernetics -- is limited to HtH: Martial Arts. The regular Cyborg Soldier O.C.C. can have a "name" martial art but is limited to minor cybernetic modifications.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Even a full conversion cyborg has no problems using chi powers.

That, I have no idea about.

Mantisking wrote:

Bones wrote:When combining a game that uses chi like N&SS with another game that uses P.P.E. like any other game that has magic, would adding cybernetics to somebody reduce the amount of chi in the same way that it does with P.P.E.?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Bionics have no effect on Chi whatsoever.

Correct. Which is kind of unfortunate as you could have some interesting repercussions from a ruling about this.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:a Bionic soldiger class already exsists in N&SS, they can take martial arts that give Chi powers and suffer no penalties whatsoever.

Actually, the "Man Machine option" -- the one that has major parts of the characters body replaced by cybernetics -- is limited to HtH: Martial Arts. The regular Cyborg Soldier O.C.C. can have a "name" martial art but is limited to minor cybernetic modifications.

Not true. it says that bionic characters from Heros Unlimited do not study the greater martial arts. the Man/Machine option has no limitation.

Mantisking wrote:Actually, the "Man Machine option" -- the one that has major parts of the characters body replaced by cybernetics -- is limited to HtH: Martial Arts. The regular Cyborg Soldier O.C.C. can have a "name" martial art but is limited to minor cybernetic modifications.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Not true. it says that bionic characters from Heros Unlimited do not study the greater martial arts. the Man/Machine option has no limitation.

I'm using the UNrevised edition. The Revised Edition of N&S is all sorts of screwed up.

Mantisking wrote:

Mantisking wrote:Actually, the "Man Machine option" -- the one that has major parts of the characters body replaced by cybernetics -- is limited to HtH: Martial Arts. The regular Cyborg Soldier O.C.C. can have a "name" martial art but is limited to minor cybernetic modifications.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Not true. it says that bionic characters from Heros Unlimited do not study the greater martial arts. the Man/Machine option has no limitation.

I'm using the UNrevised edition. The Revised Edition of N&S is all sorts of screwed up.

word

Mantisking wrote:

Mantisking wrote:Actually, the "Man Machine option" -- the one that has major parts of the characters body replaced by cybernetics -- is limited to HtH: Martial Arts. The regular Cyborg Soldier O.C.C. can have a "name" martial art but is limited to minor cybernetic modifications.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Not true. it says that bionic characters from Heros Unlimited do not study the greater martial arts. the Man/Machine option has no limitation.

I'm using the UNrevised edition. The Revised Edition of N&S is all sorts of screwed up.

Nevertheless, Revised is the current and offical word on the matter.