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I'm not sure if it says in the WB2 write up if they are or not, and as I'm moving and have the books packed I thought I'd ask here. I would think they could be coming from Earth; or they'd at least be a similar species of hominid. What do you think?

i think it does say they are human.

they are "human" because they are also originally from Earth

True Atlanteans are not only human, but they must apparently, actively maintain their "Atlanteanicity" (to coin a word) in some yet-unknown fashion or it will apparently fade away over time.

The Atlanteans who were involuntarily pulled through a Time Rift to the far past (the "Atlanees" in Rifts: Mechanoid Invasion), and who eventually invented the Mechanoids, were not stated or implied to have retained any of the powers of True Atlanteans in any way, shape, or form.

This seems to imply some sort of ongoing link with mystical forces that can be lost if it is neglected, not raw genetics which would take millennia to be bred out of the TA sub-species.
A currently unknown Alien Intelligence or God or Pantheon of some sort who is serving as their Patron Deity, perhaps? Or did the ancient TAs figure out a way to grant themselves divine power without having to serve anyone else?

Based on p15 of Atlantis, I consider them near-human, or possibly a sub-species of human.

Physicially, True Atlanteans might be considered supermen. It appears that their one-time human physiology has adapted and mutated to accomodate their constant use of ley line energy, magic, and dimensional travel.

Underlining added for emphasis.

Plus there's a few other hints. They are referred to as a Racial Character Class. Psionics are "basically the same as humans", and Natural Abilities are "Similar to human's" meaning they are not human.

They were once humans .. according to text found in Atlantis world book 2.

Which means in my opinion they are just further along the genetic line then humans .. ergo .. they are what we will be eventually so to speak.

Yes they are humans, or an off shoot there of ..

Hope this helps.

Mack wrote:Based on p15 of Atlantis, I consider them near-human, or possibly a sub-species of human.

Physicially, True Atlanteans might be considered supermen. It appears that their one-time human physiology has adapted and mutated to accomodate their constant use of ley line energy, magic, and dimensional travel.

Underlining added for emphasis.

Plus there's a few other hints. They are referred to as a Racial Character Class. Psionics are "basically the same as humans", and Natural Abilities are "Similar to human's" meaning they are not human.

Dont'cha just love trying to fit the the words "internal consistency" and "Rifts" into the same sentence??

on page 85 of Rifts: Atlantis, the Author wrote:Racial Restrictions

Humans
True Atlanteans (humans)
Ogres (ancestors of humans)
Elves (tattoos have very different effects)
Chiang-Ku (the dragon-like creators of tattoo magic)

Don't worry, Kevin.

I still love your fictional universe.

cornholioprime wrote:

on page 85 of Rifts: Atlantis, the Author wrote:Racial Restrictions

Humans
True Atlanteans (humans)
Ogres (ancestors of humans)
Elves (tattoos have very different effects)
Chiang-Ku (the dragon-like creators of tattoo magic)

By listing them separately, that implies that TA's are separate from humans.

Mack wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

on page 85 of Rifts: Atlantis, the Author wrote:Racial Restrictions

Humans
True Atlanteans (humans)
Ogres (ancestors of humans)
Elves (tattoos have very different effects)
Chiang-Ku (the dragon-like creators of tattoo magic)

By listing them separately, that implies that TA's are separate from humans.

Yes...separate but still from the same basic stock.

That is to say, True Atlanteans are, perhaps to homo sapiens sapiens what homo sapiens sapiens sapiens are to homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Maybe Atlanteans are Homo Sapiens Mysticalia?

According to canon on the species:

True Atlanteans = Humans = Ogres

/Sub

I don't remember where, but somewhere it says that humans and ogres can breed true so ogres are simply giant sized humans. Atlanteans and humans can breed true as well, so that would then link Atlanteans and ogres.

/Sub

the Tattoo magic section of WB2 I believe.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Subjugator wrote:I don't remember where, but somewhere it says that humans and ogres can breed true so ogres are simply giant sized humans. Atlanteans and humans can breed true as well, so that would then link Atlanteans and ogres.

/Sub

It's the pf main book but just don't understand why?

Cause Kevin said so?

Ninjabunny wrote:

Subjugator wrote:I don't remember where, but somewhere it says that humans and ogres can breed true so ogres are simply giant sized humans. Atlanteans and humans can breed true as well, so that would then link Atlanteans and ogres.

/Sub

It's the pf main book but just don't understand why?

Because Ogres are simply a fictional, in-game Missing Link to Human Beings the same way that the fictional Bigfoot and the Yeti are supposed to be.

Maybe Atlanteans are Homo Sapiens Mysticalia?

This. Lol.

IIRC ogres where humans that got corrupted by evil thus transformed. i think it was in the PF line somewhere.

so if TA's are a human based race that can breed with humans, can true atantians breed with ogres?

The answer is, more likely than not, "Yes"...

The Gods Bless that poor child though... It should never have been born.

... And I approve this message.

Erinoth wrote:IIRC ogres where humans that got corrupted by evil thus transformed. i think it was in the PF line somewhere.

so if TA's are a human based race that can breed with humans, can true atantians breed with ogres?

That was what I was saying - yes, it must hold true throughout.

/Sub

Rorshach wrote:Wouldn't it be more accurate to say humans are an offshoot of Atlanteans?

No.

Humans -or in this case Homo Sapiens Sapiens -was several tens of thousands of years old as a species (if not hundreds of thousands) before they discovered and played with and mastered magic....and eventually used that magic to artificially increase their lifespans and make them immune to diseases and enslavement/turning by Vampires.

They are still human in the same way dogs are still wolves.

cornholioprime wrote:

Rorshach wrote:Wouldn't it be more accurate to say humans are an offshoot of Atlanteans?

No.
Humans -or in this case Homo Sapiens Sapiens -was several tens of thousands of years old as a species (if not hundreds of thousands) before they discovered and played with and mastered magic....and eventually used that magic to artificially increase their lifespans and make them immune to diseases and enslavement/turning by Vampires.

agreed. while the atlantians were playing around with dimensional travel, biomancy, and other such things, you had other civilizations on the planet as well, which weren't. they might have been fairly poor cousins to the inhabitants of atlantis, and atlantis vanishing certainly did a number on them, but atlantians were not the only group around.* and you had tribes of stone age humans roaming the planet at the time too.


*this is borne out by real world history, which has a number of finds recently indicating settled, and fairly developed, late paleolithic'/early bronze civilizations that existed prior to the end of the ice age (which matches up with the time of atlantis in the RIFTS/BTS backstory). and even in RIFTS, there are other variant human races around just as old. like the Amazons, and the psionic immortals. both of which could be examples of other civilizations that co-existed with the Atlantians, and which went down different paths of development as a people than the Atlantian one.

If an Altess and a true atlantean were to meet, they might have the most interesting conversation on what a human is...

True Atlanteans were made to break the rules! Their humans with enhanced physical bodies, mystical abilities and increased lifespans even greater than elves. First off they break their own special ability rule can't be physically altered by magic, curse, super power, etc... then oh wait they can turn into supernatural Tattoo Men, talk about a confusing rule. Nightbanes have the same ability and they too get to alter the rule as well with their talents & abilities lol. Even says in Between the Shadows Humans, Elves & True Atlanteans can become Nightbanes in Rifts which add more confusion lol. Still I think of them as advanced humans who can have children with normal humans or how else could their be a planet full of millions them in Phase World universe.

Ok, What about the Talus and Seermen from Skraypers? Where do they fit in, can they get Tattoos, are they "Human" enough?

Mack wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

on page 85 of Rifts: Atlantis, the Author wrote:Racial Restrictions

Humans
True Atlanteans (humans)
Ogres (ancestors of humans)
Elves (tattoos have very different effects)
Chiang-Ku (the dragon-like creators of tattoo magic)

By listing them separately, that implies that TA's are separate from humans.

as are ogres who still are generally regarded as humans for most purposes (aren't they officially neanderthals or something?)

Dr Megaverse wrote:I'm not sure if it says in the WB2 write up if they are or not, and as I'm moving and have the books packed I thought I'd ask here. I would think they could be coming from Earth; or they'd at least be a similar species of hominid. What do you think?

They were once humans. (iirc) which means they they area mutated form of humanity .. just as the Psi-Stalkers are .

probably ogre, since the ogre genes are apparently dominant, while Atlantean seem to be recessive...
anyway, the point is moot, since I don't see even a very depraved Atlantean mating with an ogress, or an Atlantean female being raped by ogres enough to get pregnant and carrying the gestation to term

All Floopers all the time wrote:

Erinoth wrote:IIRC ogres where humans that got corrupted by evil thus transformed. i think it was in the PF line somewhere.

so if TA's are a human based race that can breed with humans, can true atantians breed with ogres?

When Humans breed with Ogres, the offspring is always an Ogre. If a True Atlantean breeds with an Ogre, what is the offspring considered?

A fabulous looking Orge!

Dr Megaverse wrote:I'm not sure if it says in the WB2 write up if they are or not, and as I'm moving and have the books packed I thought I'd ask here. I would think they could be coming from Earth; or they'd at least be a similar species of hominid. What do you think?

No, they are not.

They are descended from human atlanteans of ancient atlantis, but with their 500 year life span, different abilities, and comments like "even humans tend to be awestruck when they realize they stand with or against a true atlantean" in the book, it seems pretty clear that they are no longer homo sapien.

I would rule that they can mate with a human though, not sure what stats the offspring would have or if it would be a "mule"...

The concept behind True Atlanteans is a lot like the concept of the First Men from Lord of the Rings. They're human, but they're better in every possible way. You need to understand the source material Kevin built this stuff from.

Balabanto wrote:The concept behind True Atlanteans is a lot like the concept of the First Men from Lord of the Rings. They're human, but they're better in every possible way. You need to understand the source material Kevin built this stuff from.

Aye.

I too wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that he drew the inspiration for his half-century lifespan Atlanteans from the half-century lifespan Numenoreans.

Normal humans, True Atlanteans and Ogres are all subspecies of humans.
Just as Dalmations, St. Bernards, and Chiuahuas are all subspecies of dogs.

13eowulf wrote:Ok, What about the Talus and Seermen from Skraypers? Where do they fit in, can they get Tattoos, are they "Human" enough?

You mean Homo Sapiens Talus (Skraypers p. 78) and Homo Sapiens Olecrus (Skraypers p. 76)? They are human with a few modifications - still human though.

Actually a breeding table would be a fun but useless bit of gamer time wasting for determining the outcome of the mating of any two of: Ogre, TA, Human, Talus, Seermen, and all of the other human subspecies and mutants (Psi-Stalkers, Sea Titans, Achilles Neo-humans, Amazons, Praxians, Zentraedi, Tirolians, etc). In the end though, I think most of us can agree that it would be whatever the GM and the players wanted it to be.

As for the Atlanees, perhaps their issue was less of losing their connection to magic (though that did happen) and more of a mingling with local humans that eventually bred out most, but not all, of their True Atlantean traits. You end up with a population above average in intelligence and drive, but below a TA (and lacking the megaversal outlook of the TA).

MikelAmroni wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Ok, What about the Talus and Seermen from Skraypers? Where do they fit in, can they get Tattoos, are they "Human" enough?

You mean Homo Sapiens Talus (Skraypers p. 78) and Homo Sapiens Olecrus (Skraypers p. 76)? They are human with a few modifications - still human though.

Actually a breeding table would be a fun but useless bit of gamer time wasting for determining the outcome of the mating of any two of: Ogre, TA, Human, Talus, Seermen, and all of the other human subspecies and mutants (Psi-Stalkers, Sea Titans, Achilles Neo-humans, Amazons, Praxians, Zentraedi, Tirolians, etc). In the end though, I think most of us can agree that it would be whatever the GM and the players wanted it to be.

As for the Atlanees, perhaps their issue was less of losing their connection to magic (though that did happen) and more of a mingling with local humans that eventually bred out most, but not all, of their True Atlantean traits. You end up with a population above average in intelligence and drive, but below a TA (and lacking the megaversal outlook of the TA).

I like your premise....but if memory serves, the Atlanees were ripped from Rifts Earth onto a habitable but otherwise uninhabited planet elsewhere (neither the Atlanees nor the Mechanoids ever managed to find their way back), and elsewhen (thousands of years into the past).