How much loot is enough loot

[kogwar]

Ive been having trouble giving my group the rightr amount of loot for a battle i don't want ot give them to much cs stuff or else they will out balance the new west setting but i don't want to give them to little can you guys help.

[Jorel]

If it is a small to medium sized group I would say a resupply on ammo and maybe armor with a few new toys to split amongst them. If it is a bigger group then I'd double or triple the new toys. Money is always useful if you have somewhere to spend it. If your trying to limit what they can take there is always the handy self destructing of items so they can't be reused, or DNA trigger-locks on anything so they won't be able to use it for more than bartering. It's hard to carry a lot of items if you don't have the vehicle or pack-space.

[Noon]

Ask your players?

Either they'll say too much and A: you haggle them down to something your comfortable with or B: it shows the game just wont work out in this regard
OR they'll say "I dunno", in which case just do whatever you want. If they complain, say that you asked them. If they still complain, they are just the sort to complain about something they could easily fix themselves.

Rather than DNA trigger locks (which to me are a bit...meh), you could have it that the CS institutes a policy of 'enemy denial', with weapons that are linked to the wearers pulse and if that pulse stops, a small charge in the weapon slags it (perhaps good for scrap, which is worth - whatever you want). Also they can voluntarily slag weapons upon capture, but that depends on whether the soldier decides to or follows CS policy to the letter.

Just ask your players - and if they give you some airy fairy answer, say you don't get what they mean and you'll do whatever...

[kogwar]

thanks i think the self slagging works thank.

[Spinachcat]

It's better to give too much than too little.

If they get too powerful, then you can always challenge them with more foes, a cunning thief, bandits or others who will steal stuff from them.

Also, they have to haul around loot. That usually means vehicles. There are plenty of ways to disable / destroy / vanish vehicles.

[SkyeFyre]

For my group I generally look at an encounter, see what it could be dealt with reasonably with and then just add a bit.

Example: The party is going to have a run in with a couple bandits wearing light MDC armor totalling 120MDC (40MDC each) and they've got Wilk's Laser Pistols (Main book... 320 I believe). So If I recall correctly it's 1D6MD and 20 shots.

So on average, the damage will be 3.5 so with average damage it would take 35 shots (rounding up fractions) So that's about 2 e-clips worth of fire.

They're probably going to take damage so I take that into account too. On average 10 MDC is going to cost about 7000 to repair (IIRC). So I look at the bonuses, and kinda eyeball it... lets say in this case I conclude that they could easily take the group (as they're going to have the jump on them) taking minimal damage... maybe 30-40MDC worth.

I assign everything a value

2 e-clips brand new (5000cr)
40 MDC worth of repairs (28,000cr)
Total: 33,000cr

So I might bump it up by lets say 25% to 41,250 and that's how much stuff worth I would allow them to get out of it. Mind you these are not rigid and I might roll with things here and there but it's a guide I use. That way if they do poorly, they can still break even, if they do well, things will really pay off.

It works for me.

EDIT: Yeah I realize that I only accounted for one of the e-clips in my calculations but you get the point.

[dragonfett]

You could have them find nugget so gold on the dead enemies (for some reason I could have sworn that I had seen your setting was in the New West).

[Noon]

Oh, a further idea on the slagging is that they don't just slag them - if they think they are going to be beaten, they set their weapon to 'overclock', where it'll produce more damage for a round or two, but it's burning out during that time and the process is by and large irreversable. So the slagging isn't just a spoilsport thing by the enemy, it's an attempt at survival.

[BookWyrm]

I asked a freind & medevial re-enactor this question, and he smirked & answered; Everything that one can carry, and still make enough of a getaway.

[kogwar]

You could have them find nugget so gold on the dead enemies (for some reason I could have sworn that I had seen your setting was in the New West).

Well it does say that in my sig and i have posted on this gorup before and I think i may start takign weight into acount now so that they don't walk away wiht the impossible amout of eclips, and i like the alt slag frules kina goes aloing with the breakign coalition rules for the army they are fighting.

[Colt47]

Well, I don't know how much would be TOO much as a reward, but the minimum reward per play session that my home GM goes by is based on experience points. The minimum amount someone should earn in a single play session should be equal to the experience they gained during the session x10 in the games major currency. This way, the players that take the greater risks (and gain more experience points in the process) also get proportionally more wealth.

This formula would probably have to be tweaked for combat heavy games or games that involve heavy resource expenditure. (Maybe x20 instead of x10?)

[kogwar]

I am about to kit them out with a group vehicle any sugestions.

[Damian Magecraft]

I am about to kit them out with a group vehicle any sugestions.

how many in the group?
do not "give" them a vehicle. make them earn it.
if they have requested said vehicle then let them find a vehicle market.
give them options. offer up a handful transports in varying states of repair (it is a "post" apocolyptic setting after all) the worse its the shape the cheaper it is.

[kogwar]

They are part of a merc company and they used to have a vehicle that was toched during a job and they are abotu to go into a warzone i thought it woudl be pertanate and about 8.

[Damian Magecraft]

They are part of a merc company and they used to have a vehicle that was toched during a job and they are abotu to go into a warzone i thought it woudl be pertanate and about 8.

ok part of a merc unit.
hang on a sec
*puts on evil GM hat*
was destruction of the transport avoidable?
if so then it is with in the rights of the Merc Company owner to either ...
A) dock their pay
B) garnish their wages for the cost of the transport
c) issue the crew a lesser transport
d) any combination of options A, B, & C

If no The owner could still do the above anyway (depends on "cheap" he/she is).
or issue a replacement transport identical to the original but with a stern talk about taking "better" care of this one.

[kogwar]

really honorable owner (Was my chari before i understood that running a charactor in your own campaign is not so much fun) they are his start up unit they were sent to pre rifts earth and came back what was a week for them was 5 years real time he had built up his unit to a small army and they just got back and lost htere vehicle during the assanation of a cs general and the fact the vehicles were not rifted to evens out. Though i was nto all nice to join they had to get a brand .

(p.s. sry rambled a little.)

[Noon]

Here's what I'd do - allow the players to buy more armour on the vehicle - make it cheap for the first few extra MDC, then slowly go up.

This way they become invested in the vehicle by their own choice, and don't just get it for free.

[Shorty Lickens]

When I can purchase Center I will have had enough loot.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Enough to make it worth it,but not enough to make them flush. To much loot makes players expect that thats the way it sould always be and not enough makes them feel cheated.

[Noon]

Enough to make it worth it,but not enough to make them flush. To much loot makes players expect that thats the way it sould always be and not enough makes them feel cheated.

Or the player can feel that the GM's just trying to manipulate them between the two states and the whole loot thing has become pointless except as a mind game.

[cornholioprime]

Do you GMs ever have them slog through a tough dungeon only for them to find out that the "treasure" in question was only a hoax?

You know, not to be deliberately "mean" to your Gaming Group, but just to mix things up every now and again?

[Noon]

In terms of depicting a world, an occasional hoax or chinese whisper treasure seems plausible and some people who would enjoy world depiction would enjoy that.

But just for the sake of mixing it up? Who's interested in that?

[Damian Magecraft]

In terms of depicting a world, an occasional hoax or chinese whisper treasure seems plausible and some people who would enjoy world depiction would enjoy that.

But just for the sake of mixing it up? Who's interested in that?

most of the players I have met.
Not every player thinks in terms of

"duh...kill monster, collect loot...der"

[Noon]

When you say 'mix it up' to me, I'm hearing the idea of having things happen even if it makes no sense for it to happen. And I'm talking it not making sense to even one person at the game table. Even the GM. Again, who's interested in that?

Do you mean you can see some way of the hoax happening in the world and you go with that? If so, okay, you meant something other than what 'just to mix it up' brought to my mind.

[Colt47]

In D&D, loot is everything. You can't survive without loot in that system.

In many of the palladium games, loot isn't as needed by many of the classes. Doesn't mean that some PC's don't want excessive loot, but others could really care less.
-Pax

To be fair, Rifts isn't exactly the shining example of game engineering, either. It's mostly a large grouping of ideas that are worked together and balanced comparatively upon previous writings. This game could probably use a standards manual considering how many factors there are when creating new weapons, vehicles, and armor (Kind of like how there are rules for creating TW weapons in the Rifts Ultimate Edition). Beyond this, the game is still an enjoyable pass time and I believe the majority of this board would agree.

But on to responding once more to the Opening posters question after thinking upon it:

From my perspective, the game is designed so that damage to mega-damage armor, ammo loss, and e-clip recharges are the money sinks in the game, which is a good way to determine what kind of money characters should be earning in their games. When making the adventure, check to see on average what it would take the PCs resource wise to get through it if they were to utilize the preferred method of completion (Diplomacy, running and gunning, sneaking, etc.). After determining the previous information, look at how opulent the adventure setting is. This should give at least a ballpark range of where the reward values should be set at.

Do you GMs ever have them slog through a tough dungeon only for them to find out that the "treasure" in question was only a hoax?

You know, not to be deliberately "mean" to your Gaming Group, but just to mix things up every now and again?

My home GM does it all the freaking time. 9 out of 10 times most rumors turn out to be either false or only partially true, so the same can be applied to how often someone can score a jackpot as far as technology, magic, and weapons go. However, if the group has the right OCCs, items that are normally junk can become valuable commodities. Anyone here ever had an Operator or Rogue Scientist who would always try to cobble interesting gadgets together? Just take a look at the fallout 3 custom weapons list and you can get all sorts of wacky ideas to try out.

As for myself: I haven't run enough Rifts games to actually give a fair assessment on that statement.

[Shorty Lickens]

Its entirely possible to play a D&D game that lacks any serious loot. But none of the official published sourcebooks and adventures are ever set up like that. You would have to make a whole campaign and series of adventures yourself, and make them with the notion that the PC's will not be stockpiling awesome magic goodies along the way. It could be done.

I think that Rifts actually lends itself more to the Monty Haul problem because of the all the fancy military grade stuff that most of your opponents possess. GM's have to go out of their way to make sure salvage is not too rich or else their level 2 team could have all kinds of big bots and vehicles and crateloads of guns. Or use more supernatural beasts with no useful body parts to keep. OR..... run a campaign where the PC's always have to be moving and rarely have time to stop and loot.

[Shorty Lickens]

If your not too keen on loot just use HU2, or skraypers, for super powered PCs (actual super powers, not hardware or other versions that need gear). The amount of actual loot a PC needs when they have natural weapons and armor with near unlimited uses, is almost none.

You still might want them to be able to find cool gadgets and other neat/silly equipment, but their mostly good without any gear found while looting.
-Pax

In general you have to remember to play in character. Not every OCC or personality type will be a packrat. Sometimes I have to tell players to focus more on their character and not themselves.

[LostOne]

The thing with the CS is: If a player is smart they will have one complete set of armor for every two grunts they kill (shoot one in the legs and one in the head, or one in the back and one in the front combine armors).

So two grunts = 1 full armor, 1 partial armor, 2 rifles and 2 sidearms and 2 vibroblades. I figure that's about standard armament. So if the players have a vehicle they can clean up pretty good with a patrol group.

But the thing to do if they are doing this and you feel they are getting too many is this: The CS has seen too many of their items showing up on the black market, so they started using RFID tags on everything tied to a health monitor in the armor that puts out an SOS transmission if the soldier in the armor dies. Suddenly it is a bad thing to loot deadboys. Also any CS vehicle and power armor should have a hidden and difficult to find and disable transponder.

Even if they do manage to get away with all this, they still have to find a buyer for it if they don't intend to use it themselves. A black market buyer is likely to give them only 10% of the open market value so they can mark it up for a good profit.

[Killer Cyborg]

Err on the side of "Too Little."
You can always give more stuff later, but if you try to take stuff away from them after giving it, THAT can cause some trouble.

[dragonfett]

Or if you gave them too much on accident or it's a big game changer, such as power armor or a robot vehicle or a vehicle, there is always equipment failure. Nothing drains their purses faster than trying to get a piece of equipment to work. Just make sure that they don't spend more on getting it to work than it's worth at one time.

[drewkitty ~..~]

enough loot is when they are able to restock and repair and eat, but not much more.
throwing in items now and again.
If you give them something "cool" every session/quest the players will just meta-game or turn into munchkins.

[Shorty Lickens]

I am a fan of "too good to be true," but temporary loot in addition to the regular stuff. The "one ring" type item that has incredible power, but eventually it has to be thrown into the pit of lava and is gone forever.

Such items might include a magical or rune weapon or trinket that must be consumed, it's power drained in order to save the world/party/whatever. Or perhaps a souped-up energy weapon, custom built with next-generation optics and high-damage, but has a tracking device and the rightful owner (bounty hunter, assassin, juicer, etc) comes looking for his favorite toy.

In Rifts thats pretty easy cuz so many techs can be lost and anything cool might run out of power or break and be unfixable.

[Colt47]

The CS has seen too many of their items showing up on the black market, so they started using RFID tags on everything tied to a health monitor in the armor that puts out an SOS transmission if the soldier in the armor dies. Suddenly it is a bad thing to loot deadboys. Also any CS vehicle and power armor should have a hidden and difficult to find and disable transponder.

They always have used RFID tags, at least in the games I've played in. It still doesn't stop people from looting the armor since anyone with the ECM skill can disable the tags or scramble the signal to the point of being unrecognizable. Not to mention the RFID tags can be used as a "call more people with black armor button", which got abused to the point of insanity. Got bandit problems? Give them your RFID tag laden armor! Got dinosaur problems? Stick the RFID tag on the dinosaur!

On the flip side, if the group doesn't have the ECM skill the entire encounter could turn into an endless siege since chances are the group will not be able to get far enough away from the signal point if they are on foot. Also, if they don't have the ECM skill they probably are not a military OCC group and some members may lack camouflage, Use/Detect Concealment, and Prowl. Magic can help in some instances, but not if the enemy group also brings along a dog pack and the CS are infamous for using them; especially in Central United States with the magic zone nearby.

Self destruct systems in the armor are probably a better deal than the RFID tags, as it slags the internals and ruins the armors environmental features. It might not stop the players from looting the suits, but it would make them a bit less profitable.

[Dog_O_War]

Ive been having trouble giving my group the rightr amount of loot for a battle i don't want ot give them to much cs stuff or else they will out balance the new west setting but i don't want to give them to little can you guys help.

Give them nothing, but take from them, EVERYTHING.


That is, stop using CS in the New West setting, as they aren't what the setting is about. That is, you can't expect them to take a loot-cut for fighting the CS because you believe it's setting-inappropriate to give out CS-level gear. If they fight the CS, then they should get what they get; damaged CS armour and vehicles, and CS guns and ammo.

I would suggest using the setting appropriate monsters and badguys, because they basically have no gear to loot (see my opening comment). Take away the "easy" loot of a CS patrol, and replace it with the meager loot of an MD weapon and body armour of a gunfighter, who in all likelyhood will put the party at negative credits thanks to their superior damage-dealing ability with minimal equipment.

Basically the New West is all about skill and making-do with what you have, in direct conflict with the "standard" Rifts setting. People should be relying on personal skill, wits, subterfuge, and luck to get by. A tough challenge in the setting is a single foe in PA; if that isn't considered a tough challenge, I suggest picking another setting for your group to adventure in, or whittling down your group of resources until a single foe in PA is a challenge.