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Warlocks are only allowed up to two different elements, and only if the ME (IIRC) is high enough. Then they get less spells when they level up for each element. But I know what you mean, several times when my players have looked over what options they have for characters, a couple of them see themselves as and Avatar-esque type character when looking at both the Warlock and Elemental Fusionist, even though they never through with their thoughts (damn pity, too, because these players tend to want to play more munchy type characters like a combat 'borg).

Warlocks hold up really well in actual gameplay though. As for more spells, the Palladium Mysteries of Magic book already updates much on magic and adds a number of new warlock spells, such as Globe of True Daylight.

Personally, I would add some more situational powers to them than anything. I would love to see the fusion stuff that Carl Gleba and I discussed on the last show with him, but that's now more the realm of the elemental fusionist

I hate to toot the same horn again, but Warlocks already got Armor spells in the Mysteries of Magic book as well. You really should pick it up

And what about those of us that haven't even heard of the book until this thread? Does the book deal with converting the material from PFRPG to Rifts?

No, then again, palladium did absolutely nothing to warlock spells than to make them deal MD. just have MD spells do MD and Armor spells give MDC. That's all palladium ever did for warlock conversion in the first place

Also, it is true that Mysteries of Magic was written primarly for PFRPG, then again, you have to understand that the Warlock was Written for PFRPG. Palladium pretty much did litterally nothing to the class other than make most spells deal MD and give them a few modern skills. There's basically no conversion necessary.

Besides, while Mark Hall did write it, Kevin of course edited it heavilly to suit his own vision for the game. While it reflects his work, it's definatly been changed to work well with what's already written, and I find the material works just fine for Rifts, myself, in fact I find myself frequently refering to it.

It dosn't convert to rifts, but it dosn't need to, because by and large what's there only needs to swap an S with a M and your done.

dragonfett wrote:Warlocks are only allowed up to two different elements, and only if the ME (IIRC) is high enough. Then they get less spells when they level up for each element. But I know what you mean, several times when my players have looked over what options they have for characters, a couple of them see themselves as and Avatar-esque type character when looking at both the Warlock and Elemental Fusionist, even though they never through with their thoughts (damn pity, too, because these players tend to want to play more munchy type characters like a combat 'borg).

Warlocks can learn all 4 elements; there's such a warlock in one of the PFRPG adventure books.
No explanation of HOW it was done, but there are two ways I can think of:

1. Start off as a warlock of one element (say, Fire), and stick with it for a few levels. Then change your OCC to Water Warlock. Then after a while, change your OCC to Earth Warlock, and later Air.
The order of the elements doesn't matter, of course.

2. Start off as a warlock of two elements. After you level up for a while, switch your OCC to being a Warlock of the other two elements.

Huh, happen to be doing just that for my home brew! Create a stronger theme within spell lists, and stronger elemental hybrid spells (i.e Air + Water = Ice for me, Earth + Water = Plant), and then grant bonuses to spells which match all of a warlocks type (meaning warlocks of two elements have the greater range of selection, but weaker specialization compared to a single element warlock). Increase number of spells per element, mainly in the Levels 5+ (there's like six level 6+ total per element, not much choice to be had). Create better minion spells that have more synergy with the class itself and are more generally useful, as well as at least 3 core element minions spells (i.e single type), and 1 per combo element. Allow Warlocks to interact more with their minions (casting spells with them for increased power, consuming them for short term bonuses and sending the essence back to the planes, etc).

I've also removed Spell Power from all of their spells so far in an experiment, but their effects are diluted when it's unavoidable, or there is some other way around it (Dodge, parry, etc).

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

dragonfett wrote:Does the book deal with converting the material from PFRPG to Rifts?

Curious about this myself.

Yes (can't give page no, at work) but I recall, for damage anyway, it's just a straight 4D6 SDC = 4D6 MD. I'll look tonight.

Dr. Hellstromme wrote:I would just give stronger spells to start with. Elemental spell level one is hardly more than cantrips. Ideally, elemental spells should range from levels 1-15 like all others, and levels 1-4 would be allowed at xp level one, just like a mystic.
When the (canon) warlock reaches level 3 or 4, I dont think he is underpowered anymore.

PS: sometimes I think the elemental fusionist is meant to be the warlock V2. IIRC Rifts Merctown says somewhere (around the magic guilds) that warlocks call themselves EFs nowadays. The only problem is the EF doesnt have acces to most of the elemental spells

But Elemental Fusionists suck, while Warlocks are still good characters. IMHO.

Rider wrote:I'd like to increase the spells to 4 per level so that Warlocks get more spells than the Elemental Shamans from Spirit West. That peeved me off.

Not sure what to do about split elements though. 2/2 may not work since it's supposed to be more than the sum. If it was 2/2 I'd have to ask for 5 per level, lol.

Why exactly should duel warlocks get more spells than single elements? They already get the flexibility of two elements, that's a big enough bonus.

Cinos wrote:

Rider wrote:I'd like to increase the spells to 4 per level so that Warlocks get more spells than the Elemental Shamans from Spirit West. That peeved me off.

Not sure what to do about split elements though. 2/2 may not work since it's supposed to be more than the sum. If it was 2/2 I'd have to ask for 5 per level, lol.

Why exactly should duel warlocks get more spells than single elements? They already get the flexibility of two elements, that's a big enough bonus.

In my experiance, no, 1 spell from two elements per level is not enough flexibility if you want them to be a pure caster.

If you treat them like a skill-focused character, and use magic as backup, then it works better. But they don't get enough skills to be really effective in this role. In every game I saw them tried, a duel-element warlock was the fifth wheel.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Cinos wrote:

Rider wrote:I'd like to increase the spells to 4 per level so that Warlocks get more spells than the Elemental Shamans from Spirit West. That peeved me off.

Not sure what to do about split elements though. 2/2 may not work since it's supposed to be more than the sum. If it was 2/2 I'd have to ask for 5 per level, lol.

Why exactly should duel warlocks get more spells than single elements? They already get the flexibility of two elements, that's a big enough bonus.

In my experiance, no, 1 spell from two elements per level is not enough flexibility if you want them to be a pure caster.

If you treat them like a skill-focused character, and use magic as backup, then it works better. But they don't get enough skills to be really effective in this role. In every game I saw them tried, a duel-element warlock was the fifth wheel.

You miss-read what I wrote.

Cinos wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Cinos wrote:

Rider wrote:I'd like to increase the spells to 4 per level so that Warlocks get more spells than the Elemental Shamans from Spirit West. That peeved me off.

Not sure what to do about split elements though. 2/2 may not work since it's supposed to be more than the sum. If it was 2/2 I'd have to ask for 5 per level, lol.

Why exactly should duel warlocks get more spells than single elements? They already get the flexibility of two elements, that's a big enough bonus.

In my experiance, no, 1 spell from two elements per level is not enough flexibility if you want them to be a pure caster.

If you treat them like a skill-focused character, and use magic as backup, then it works better. But they don't get enough skills to be really effective in this role. In every game I saw them tried, a duel-element warlock was the fifth wheel.

You miss-read what I wrote.

I did, but my point remains the same even after re-reading. 1/1 is simply not enough to make a duel-classed warlock viable, whatever implications that has for the single-classed.

I would make sure to put in text about not being able to have two opposing elemental signs. Fire<->Water & Earth<->Air.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would make sure to put in text about not being able to have two opposing elemental signs. Fire<->Water & Earth<->Air.

Why? that would limit the class more than it already is.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would make sure to put in text about not being able to have two opposing elemental signs. Fire<->Water & Earth<->Air.

Actually, that was one of the things I enjoyed most about the Elemental Fusionist.

I wouldn't mind a remake of both classes that merges the two somehow, but I would at least allow dual-element Warlocks with the appropriate combos to select a few Fusionist powers during their career.

And Fusionists are a separate class from the warlock class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would make sure to put in text about not being able to have two opposing elemental signs. Fire<->Water & Earth<->Air.

This is something that bugs me. Why is water seen as the opposing of fire? Throw dirt on a fire, it goes out just as fast (often better, why they stopped using water in many fire fighters and use chems), blow on a match, what happens? Earth and air are almost non-reactive. Air carves out earth, earth stops air (in a short term only). Air does the same to water as it does to earth, it shoves it around. Water carves out earth just the same and changes it into other things (mud, clay, etc), earth throws water around via earthquakes and creates horrific typhoons. Each element opposes each element. Each element supports each element.

And since I didn't respond to the earlier bit; No I wouldn't give them more spells than a normal warlock, I'd give the two the the same amount, but the dual elemental must pick between. 3 seems like the correct number for both.

There are dragons and godlings and one or two other rather powerful rare races that could choose two classes, and have each of them progress at the same time if you really wanted a 4 element warlock.

I agree that Warlocks may not be as good as a primary caster needs to be. If you pick your elements and all level spells when you make your character you might do better...but most people want to pick them for fun as they go through the game. To fix this, we COULD, since the class is reprinted from PF, make the powers sub categories for shifter links. I think it would add a lot of flavor to the linking ability of the shifter, and show people not everything you link to has to be evil. I have done this and was happy with the result. Plus I like that you get spells as you level, that are appropriate to your level, as opposed to starting with a bunch of the highest level spells.

G wrote:There are dragons and godlings and one or two other rather powerful rare races that could choose two classes, and have each of them progress at the same time if you really wanted a 4 element warlock.

I agree that Warlocks may not be as good as a primary caster needs to be. If you pick your elements and all level spells when you make your character you might do better...but most people want to pick them for fun as they go through the game. To fix this, we COULD, since the class is reprinted from PF, make the powers sub categories for shifter links. I think it would add a lot of flavor to the linking ability of the shifter, and show people not everything you link to has to be evil. I have done this and was happy with the result. Plus I like that you get spells as you level, that are appropriate to your level, as opposed to starting with a bunch of the highest level spells.

I really like the idea of "shifter" in the possible re-write of the Warlock.

Maybe the class should be re-done once more.

I would make it a male witch