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CK has many ranged attacks .. that are energy based ..

Mystic Knights have energy based invulnerabilities ..

CK has SNPS .. MK's have spell based attacks ..

One on One .. lvl 15's .. both knowing they are going up against each other and are equipped as such .. MK know's the CK's vulnerabilities .. as does the CK know about the MK's ..

Who wins in your opinion an why ?

*EDIT: Yes I am talking about Cosmo-Knights. I apologize for not being more direct. And there are poster's who are correct for not knowing and taking a guess I do apologize for that mistake peeps. Carry on I am loving the read so far thank you all for your imput.

The CK hands down. It's not even a question of how badly would the CK be hurt or injured in the fight. Cosmo-Knights are designed to take on galactic level threats. I would even take range completely out of the equation. Why? Cause a 15th level Cosmo-Knight can fly at Mach 15 in atmo! That's a lot of ground covered in a heartbeat (700 MPH * 15 = 10,500 MPH!/60 minutes = 175 Miles Per Minute/4 melée rounds = 43.75 miles/7 attacks per melée = 6.25 miles to the action!).

Even in a worst case scenario the CK could just grapple the MK and go full speed for a minute or so and turn the MK into liquified goo.

All the Cosmo Knight really needs to do is fly by body block tackles all day. at mach 15, your talking a LOT of impact damage to the Mystic Knight--even though his armor, and he'll be far out of range of anything the Mystic Knight can cast or do about it.

Why did I think a CK was a Cyber-Knight at first? I never realized that they were both CK.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:All the Cosmo Knight really needs to do is fly by body block tackles all day. at mach 15, your talking a LOT of impact damage to the Mystic Knight--even though his armor, and he'll be far out of range of anything the Mystic Knight can cast or do about it.

Niiiiiiiiice.

Cain I agree the Cosmo-knight should be able to beat the MK, but I think its a lot closer fight then you all want to admit

There is no question a 15th lvl MK would mop the floor with a 15th lvl Cyber-knight. In my honest opinion.

15th leveled MK vs 15th leveled Cosmo-knight .. CK wins 9/10 fights rather easily..

15th leveled MK vs 15th leveled Cyber-knight .. MK wins 8/10 x easily..

I love the well thought out explanations very nice

I just love the idea of a Mach 15 body block....

taalismn wrote:I just love the idea of a Mach 15 body block....

Makes me wonder what type of damage that would produce haha

Lenwen wrote:

taalismn wrote:I just love the idea of a Mach 15 body block....

Makes me wonder what type of damage that would produce haha

Well, it's a certain amount of damage if you fall, multiplied by the number of feet you fall (I don't remember the number).

Terminal Velocity is about 250 miles an hour or something like that under most conditions.

Figure out how long it takes a falling body to reach that speed, plug in the Rifts Fall Damage....then multiply it by about 40 (250 times 2.6 =650 mph or Mach 1, times 15).

In other words, squishy SDC Knight inside the MDC armor -which may or may not itself remain intact after that first hit.

You all assume the mk fails to dodge or counter. Oh the mach 15 body block just became a mach 15 sword impalment.

Then there is the mks defence prep. There is a spell like shield wall (can't remenber the right name) that stops everything. If the ck hit that he is stuck. Mk wallks around and starts sawing ck in half.

As far as mach speed damage I would use HU rules.

taalismn wrote:I just love the idea of a Mach 15 body block....

In a prep fight ( possibly using scrolls, TW devices, amulets, help from other spell casters)

the Mk surrounds himself with several "impenetrable wall of force" Spelsl (or whatever the spell is called) and watches what happens to the CK as it impacts it at mach 15

and/or puts up mystic portal spell , just in time in the path of the CK at the last possible moment and sends CK travelling at mach 15 into Lord Modeus bedroom

Lenwen wrote:CK has many ranged attacks .. that are energy based ..

Mystic Knights have energy based invulnerabilities ..

CK has SNPS .. MK's have spell based attacks ..

One on One .. lvl 15's .. both knowing they are going up against each other and are equipped as such .. MK know's the CK's vulnerabilities .. as does the CK know about the MK's ..

Who wins in your opinion an why ?

*EDIT: Yes I am talking about Cosmo-Knights. I apologize for not being more direct. And there are poster's who are correct for not knowing and taking a guess I do apologize for that mistake peeps. Carry on I am loving the read so far thank you all for your imput.

IMO

1:1 fight CK wins
prep fight CK wins

the 1 in 10 MK who happens to have enough resources and friends behind him, could IMO get enough magic based hardware to really make things tough for the CK.

but IMO a 15th lvl CK, even an ordinary one, will have far more resources, contacts and favors to call upon than a 15th lvl MK.

steve652 wrote:What about other powerhouse champions. Undead slayers, antimonsters, phasemystics all champions of the people technically knights.

These would give a mk more trouble the n the ck

Robroy wrote:You all assume the mk fails to dodge or counter. Oh the mach 15 body block just became a mach 15 sword impalment.

Then there is the mks defence prep. There is a spell like shield wall (can't remenber the right name) that stops everything. If the ck hit that he is stuck. Mk wallks around and starts sawing ck in half.

As far as mach speed damage I would use HU rules.

No, I took all that into account. Yes, a simultanious attack is really the only way the MK is going to get a hit in. the problem is, the impact damage is 1d8 SDC per 10 MPH. that adds up to 1d6*1000 SDC damage, which adds up to 1d6*10 MD. This goes DIRECTLY TO HIT POINTS, even though armor. The mystic knight, if he does stick his sword out to impale the cosmo knight, he is DEAD, as simultanious strikes deal damage to both parties. The Mystic KNight is liquified.

On the Cosmo Knights side on the other hand, 1d6*10 added onto his own damage is gonna hurt, but not be lethal. Their personal MD is more than enough to absorb it even on a low roll.

Also: you forget that mystic knights cannot learn spells higher than 6th level ever. That spell is called Wall of Defence, and it's very useful, unfortunatly, the mystic knight can never learn it.

Finnally: if the mystic knight dodges....well, so what? as I said, it's a fly-by attack. the cosmo knight misses, his speed takes him FAR out of range of anything the mystic knight can do to counterattack on his turn immediately. then on the cosmo knights next turn he turns around and does it again. and again. he's going to hit eventually, and there simply isn't much of anything the MK can do except try to flee and hide.

I'll give it to the Cosmo-Knight. Like John said way back at the start, a Cosmo-Knight takes on Galactic level threats. This is a guy that goes toe to toe with most fully armed space cruisers and stands a good shot at coming out on top. The Mystic Knight, while possibly able to hit and maybe even hurt a Cosmo-Knight, just can't compete.
On the Mach 15 body block I say why? Just grab him and head for the stars. If the hard vacuum of space doesn't kill him, the killer sattellites will.

JuliusCreed wrote:I'll give it to the Cosmo-Knight. Like John said way back at the start, a Cosmo-Knight takes on Galactic level threats. This is a guy that goes toe to toe with most fully armed space cruisers and stands a good shot at coming out on top. The Mystic Knight, while possibly able to hit and maybe even hurt a Cosmo-Knight, just can't compete.
On the Mach 15 body block I say why? Just grab him and head for the stars. If the hard vacuum of space doesn't kill him, the killer sattellites will.

Jhonathan played a cosmo knight in a game where we were fighting the four hoseman of the apocalypse.

He tried that with War

He used his power to take control of ANY war mashine and took command of the Killer sattaghts and aimed them to earth.

He's been...touchy about doing that sinse.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:I'll give it to the Cosmo-Knight. Like John said way back at the start, a Cosmo-Knight takes on Galactic level threats. This is a guy that goes toe to toe with most fully armed space cruisers and stands a good shot at coming out on top. The Mystic Knight, while possibly able to hit and maybe even hurt a Cosmo-Knight, just can't compete.
On the Mach 15 body block I say why? Just grab him and head for the stars. If the hard vacuum of space doesn't kill him, the killer sattellites will.

Jhonathan played a cosmo knight in a game where we were fighting the four hoseman of the apocalypse.

He tried that with War

He used his power to take control of ANY war mashine and took command of the Killer sattaghts and aimed them to earth.

He's been...touchy about doing that sinse.

Well Luckily he'd be up against a Mystic Knight instead of War in this scenario

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Robroy wrote:You all assume the mk fails to dodge or counter. Oh the mach 15 body block just became a mach 15 sword impalment.

Then there is the mks defence prep. There is a spell like shield wall (can't remenber the right name) that stops everything. If the ck hit that he is stuck. Mk wallks around and starts sawing ck in half.

As far as mach speed damage I would use HU rules.

No, I took all that into account. Yes, a simultanious attack is really the only way the MK is going to get a hit in. the problem is, the impact damage is 1d8 SDC per 10 MPH. that adds up to 1d6*1000 SDC damage, which adds up to 1d6*10 MD. This goes DIRECTLY TO HIT POINTS, even though armor. The mystic knight, if he does stick his sword out to impale the cosmo knight, he is DEAD, as simultanious strikes deal damage to both parties. The Mystic KNight is liquified.

On the Cosmo Knights side on the other hand, 1d6*10 added onto his own damage is gonna hurt, but not be lethal. Their personal MD is more than enough to absorb it even on a low roll.

Also: you forget that mystic knights cannot learn spells higher than 6th level ever. That spell is called Wall of Defence, and it's very useful, unfortunatly, the mystic knight can never learn it.

Finnally: if the mystic knight dodges....well, so what? as I said, it's a fly-by attack. the cosmo knight misses, his speed takes him FAR out of range of anything the mystic knight can do to counterattack on his turn immediately. then on the cosmo knights next turn he turns around and does it again. and again. he's going to hit eventually, and there simply isn't much of anything the MK can do except try to flee and hide.

Wall of Defense is the spell I was thinking of but on the Knights of the White Rose TW shield.

We play the transfer of damage through armor from falls and impact as 1d6 SDC for every 10 MD. But magic armor ( Armor of Ithan) prevents a character from taking SDC damage. But that aside the MK is going to have 28 spells (level 1-6) plus the ones he started with and 14 psi powers (physical and sensitive) plus the ones he started with.

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

The MK will buff with Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Speed.

Defenses will be Armor of Ithan.

To mislead and avoid getting hit there is Invisibility: Simple and Multiple Image

To disorient he can use Blinding Flash, Befuddle, Blind, and Horrific Illusion. Or the psi power of Bio Manipulation

The MK can force the CK to the ground by Domination (or aa good hit) and keep him there by Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net.

Sorry I just don’t think the fight would be so one sided.

Ah... Carpet of Adhesion. One of the most broken spells in a magic users repertoire...

Anyway, yes. These are all possibilities, naturally. And some of them COULD work. However, even then, with a 3D6+10+whatever physical skill boosts to P.E. the Cosmo-knight might have can compensate for that accordingly. It all hinges on the Cosmo-Knight failing his save vs magic...

Could it work? Of course it could. Is it possible? Of course it is. Is it probable? Not really...

Robroy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Robroy wrote:You all assume the mk fails to dodge or counter. Oh the mach 15 body block just became a mach 15 sword impalment.

Then there is the mks defence prep. There is a spell like shield wall (can't remenber the right name) that stops everything. If the ck hit that he is stuck. Mk wallks around and starts sawing ck in half.

As far as mach speed damage I would use HU rules.

No, I took all that into account. Yes, a simultanious attack is really the only way the MK is going to get a hit in. the problem is, the impact damage is 1d8 SDC per 10 MPH. that adds up to 1d6*1000 SDC damage, which adds up to 1d6*10 MD. This goes DIRECTLY TO HIT POINTS, even though armor. The mystic knight, if he does stick his sword out to impale the cosmo knight, he is DEAD, as simultanious strikes deal damage to both parties. The Mystic KNight is liquified.

On the Cosmo Knights side on the other hand, 1d6*10 added onto his own damage is gonna hurt, but not be lethal. Their personal MD is more than enough to absorb it even on a low roll.

Also: you forget that mystic knights cannot learn spells higher than 6th level ever. That spell is called Wall of Defence, and it's very useful, unfortunatly, the mystic knight can never learn it.

Finnally: if the mystic knight dodges....well, so what? as I said, it's a fly-by attack. the cosmo knight misses, his speed takes him FAR out of range of anything the mystic knight can do to counterattack on his turn immediately. then on the cosmo knights next turn he turns around and does it again. and again. he's going to hit eventually, and there simply isn't much of anything the MK can do except try to flee and hide.

Wall of Defense is the spell I was thinking of but on the Knights of the White Rose TW shield.

When one says Mystic Knight, it is assumed you are refering to the standard Mystic Knight class. Especially as a Cosmo Knight would have little reason to fight a Knight of the White Rose in any case. Regardless, the wall is still not much of a problem to the Cosmo Knight. it is trivial to fly around it, and at 55 PPE to activate the function on the sheild, the White Rose wouldn't be able to box himself in even at 15th level. not enough PPE. And even if he somehow did, he'd just have to wait until the duration expires.

We play the transfer of damage through armor from falls and impact as 1d6 SDC for every 10 MD. But magic armor ( Armor of Ithan) prevents a character from taking SDC damage. But that aside the MK is going to have 28 spells (level 1-6) plus the ones he started with and 14 psi powers (physical and sensitive) plus the ones he started with.

Houserules have little impact on a debate on who'd win RAW (Rules As Written). But iffin you wanna play that way. considering a probable 1d6*10 damage from body block/tackle added onto 1d6*10 from impact damage still means 6d6 damage direct to HP each body block tackle AND each hit will stun him, knocking him prone and making him loose an attack, being knocked down making it impossible to dodge, it quickly becomes a cycle of being pummled helplessly to death unable to do anything to attack or defend yourself. So even with your houserules, advantage Cosmo Knight. Then he can put his cosmic sword in front of him as he charges for an additional 2d4*10. See where this is going? That's a slight chance he'll bash though the 150 MD armor of ithan with raw damage.

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

True. and the +4 dodge might save them for a while.

The MK will buff with Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Speed.

Probablly. Won't help much.

Defenses will be Armor of Ithan.

Respectable, but still won't help when the impact damage jellifies him.

To mislead and avoid getting hit there is Invisibility: Simple and Multiple Image

Multiple Image might be useful if it made people guess which one to attack, all it does is give a piddling -2 strike. at level 15, negligable.

To disorient he can use Blinding Flash, Befuddle, Blind, and Horrific Illusion. Or the psi power of Bio Manipulation

The MK can force the CK to the ground by Domination (or aa good hit) and keep him there by Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net.

No he cannot do these things, because under the fly-by body block senario the cosmo knight will never be in range of those powers when the mystic knights turn comes around. I think you need to look at how fast mach 15 is. The cosmo knight is traveling at 2.7 miles per second. Litterally the mystic knight will be attacked. if he is hit, he dies, if the cosmo knight missed, then on the mystic knights turn the cosmo knight will be over two miles away whenever it's actually the mystic knights turn. That puts him out of range even if your mystic knight is holding a Boom gun.

Small correction. It would 175 miles to the minute. 2.9 miles to the second. A moot point at best... Since the Cosmo-Knight would STILL be out of range with a heartbeat/blink of an eye...

Johnathan wrote:Small correction. It would 175 miles to the minute. 2.9 miles to the second. A moot point at best... Since the Cosmo-Knight would STILL be out of range with a heartbeat/blink of an eye...

My bad. but yes. they'll be nearly 3 miles away.

what if the mystic knight grappls with the CK that would at least get rid of the flying about
h casts SN PS first of course

csbioborg wrote:what if the mystic knight grappls with the CK that would at least get rid of the flying about
h casts SN PS first of course

Grappling with somebody who has Supernatural Strength, and you don't??

BAD idea.


Even if you have the Superhuman Strength spell at the ready and cast it -you may be able to lift 20 tons for a brief time, but you won't be able to trade close-combat punches, or even punch the C-Knight's MDC body back, you squishy SDC creature you.

csbioborg wrote:what if the mystic knight grappls with the CK that would at least get rid of the flying about
h casts SN PS first of course

Not really...even if you cast supernatural strenght, the cosmo knight's still far stronger, he can fly while grappling you

Robroy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Robroy wrote:You all assume the mk fails to dodge or counter. Oh the mach 15 body block just became a mach 15 sword impalment.

Then there is the mks defence prep. There is a spell like shield wall (can't remenber the right name) that stops everything. If the ck hit that he is stuck. Mk wallks around and starts sawing ck in half.

As far as mach speed damage I would use HU rules.

No, I took all that into account. Yes, a simultanious attack is really the only way the MK is going to get a hit in. the problem is, the impact damage is 1d8 SDC per 10 MPH. that adds up to 1d6*1000 SDC damage, which adds up to 1d6*10 MD. This goes DIRECTLY TO HIT POINTS, even though armor. The mystic knight, if he does stick his sword out to impale the cosmo knight, he is DEAD, as simultanious strikes deal damage to both parties. The Mystic KNight is liquified.

On the Cosmo Knights side on the other hand, 1d6*10 added onto his own damage is gonna hurt, but not be lethal. Their personal MD is more than enough to absorb it even on a low roll.

Also: you forget that mystic knights cannot learn spells higher than 6th level ever. That spell is called Wall of Defence, and it's very useful, unfortunatly, the mystic knight can never learn it.

Finnally: if the mystic knight dodges....well, so what? as I said, it's a fly-by attack. the cosmo knight misses, his speed takes him FAR out of range of anything the mystic knight can do to counterattack on his turn immediately. then on the cosmo knights next turn he turns around and does it again. and again. he's going to hit eventually, and there simply isn't much of anything the MK can do except try to flee and hide.

Wall of Defense is the spell I was thinking of but on the Knights of the White Rose TW shield.

We play the transfer of damage through armor from falls and impact as 1d6 SDC for every 10 MD. But magic armor ( Armor of Ithan) prevents a character from taking SDC damage. But that aside the MK is going to have 28 spells (level 1-6) plus the ones he started with and 14 psi powers (physical and sensitive) plus the ones he started with.

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

The MK will buff with Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Speed.

Defenses will be Armor of Ithan.

To mislead and avoid getting hit there is Invisibility: Simple and Multiple Image

To disorient he can use Blinding Flash, Befuddle, Blind, and Horrific Illusion. Or the psi power of Bio Manipulation

The MK can force the CK to the ground by Domination (or aa good hit) and keep him there by Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net.

Sorry I just don’t think the fight would be so one sided.

Neither do I ..

Johnathan wrote:The CK hands down. It's not even a question of how badly would the CK be hurt or injured in the fight. Cosmo-Knights are designed to take on galactic level threats. I would even take range completely out of the equation. Why? Cause a 15th level Cosmo-Knight can fly at Mach 15 in atmo! That's a lot of ground covered in a heartbeat (700 MPH * 15 = 10,500 MPH!/60 minutes = 175 Miles Per Minute/4 melée rounds = 43.75 miles/7 attacks per melée = 6.25 miles to the action!).

Even in a worst case scenario the CK could just grapple the MK and go full speed for a minute or so and turn the MK into liquified goo.

Hold action. Body/Flip,Throw. Carpet of Adhesion. Plus, remember the equation of knowledge. The Mystic Knight will cheat and come in with a full spell load. So the CK won't be able to see, locate, or otherwise be aware of the MK in his 15th level, fully loaded out technowizard armor that makes him invisible to everything and immune to energy until after the first shot. Not to mention the ever-present deathbringer sword or battle fury blade that pumps out tons of magic damage.

You're assuming MKs are honorable opponents. They aren't.

There's also one other important fact. A Mystic Knight gets paid 1.5x what every other character in the game gets. That's got to be worth some significant gear that can seriously hose a Cosmo-Knight. We can start with TW-Enhanced Warlock Armor, for instance. It's only 50 million credits to get an attuned suit. Not hard, really. Trick it out with a 15th level operator first, then TW the thing out. Watch the Cosmo-Knight scream. Plus, Realm of Chaos from the armor equals dead Cosmo-Knight. No special defenses vs. Magic equals eventual save fail. Which means the Cosmo-Knight has to fight one of his greatest enemies AND the Mystic Knight at the same time in a 100 foot zone of death. That's a no brainer who wins at that point.

Balabanto wrote:

Johnathan wrote:The CK hands down. It's not even a question of how badly would the CK be hurt or injured in the fight. Cosmo-Knights are designed to take on galactic level threats. I would even take range completely out of the equation. Why? Cause a 15th level Cosmo-Knight can fly at Mach 15 in atmo! That's a lot of ground covered in a heartbeat (700 MPH * 15 = 10,500 MPH!/60 minutes = 175 Miles Per Minute/4 melée rounds = 43.75 miles/7 attacks per melée = 6.25 miles to the action!).

Even in a worst case scenario the CK could just grapple the MK and go full speed for a minute or so and turn the MK into liquified goo.

Hold action. Body/Flip,Throw. Carpet of Adhesion. Plus, remember the equation of knowledge. The Mystic Knight will cheat and come in with a full spell load. So the CK won't be able to see, locate, or otherwise be aware of the MK in his 15th level, fully loaded out technowizard armor that makes him invisible to everything and immune to energy until after the first shot. Not to mention the ever-present deathbringer sword or battle fury blade that pumps out tons of magic damage.

You're assuming MKs are honorable opponents. They aren't.

What TW Armor does a Mystic Knight start off with?

We are assuming that both combatants start off with their most basic sets of gear and weapons and spells, yes?

Also...how do you get off a "hold action" against an opponent who for all intents and purposes is a Mach 15 flying missile? Wouldn't we be rolling on the Knockdown Table instead (assuming we're gonna be generous enough to allow that MK to survive that first hit)?

What 15th level character/NPC has starting gear?

Jorel wrote:What 15th level character/NPC has starting gear?

Bingo.

Considering a Cosmo-Knight is capable of flying at several times the speed of light... somehow I don't think flying at several times the speed of sound would be much of a concern for him.... Just a thought...

Jorel wrote:What 15th level character/NPC has starting gear?

One assumes that you're joking, and pretending that you don't understand what I'm asking.

Let me rephrase: what TW Armor does a Mystic Knight get as part of his or her regular rollout?

One assumes that both parties are equipped with the basics, right?

No joke. I'm assuming they might have acquired more than their basic starting gear by the time they reach 15th level, unless they were born at 15th level, at which point I give them nothing but their mother's protection and sorrow when her child dies, assuming she is female.

Okay.

If you assume the Mystic KNight has all kinds of awsome TW gear, then you have to assume the Cosmo Knight does as well.

Also about the "coming perpared" line. You have to assume the cosmo knight has come prepared to take down such an evil and cunning being.

Sorry all, those sorts of advantages have to be assumed to cancel each-other out. Otherwise your blantantly stacking the deck.

Nowhere in the OP does it say starting gear. It says they are prepared to deal with their opponent. To me that says they both have time to acquire whatever they want.

Jorel wrote:Nowhere in the OP does it say starting gear. It says they are prepared to deal with their opponent. To me that says they both have time to acquire whatever they want.

Okay, then.....

Cosmo-Knight acquires a Phase Beamer from his locale, the Three Galaxies, and continuously blasts away at the Mystic Knight from a safe distance until his PPE gives out (he can't cast protective spells if he has them) and he gets fried in his armor.

OR

Cosmo-Knight calls in a favor or two, rifts a Starship (and its crew) in from the SpaceGates on Center and blasts the Mystic Knight from beyond the M-Knight's range.

OR

Cosmo-Knight uses some the funds that he's acquired in the many years since he got from Level 1 to Level 15, buys a single-manned, atmospheric-capable craft (also from Center), and crashes it into the Mystic Knight since the CK will easily survive the explosion.

Just how far do you want to take the "fully loaded opponents" thing?

Or should we not just stick to having two opponents with the basic loadouts for their respective RCCs and go from there?

Remember, whatever gear the Cosmo-Knight can afford, the Mystic Knight gets to spend 1.5x that amount. That's what the OCC ability means.

Balabanto wrote:Remember, whatever gear the Cosmo-Knight can afford, the Mystic Knight gets to spend 1.5x that amount. That's what the OCC ability means.

Yes. This dosn't mean that the mystic knight can spend it on the same stuff. Three Galaxies technology is rare on Rifts earth, even Naruni, the most common exsample, is very rare, wherewas for the Cosmo Knight it is trivial to aquire. Just because the mystic knight has a bit more dosn't mean he shops at the same places.

cornholioprime wrote:

Jorel wrote:Nowhere in the OP does it say starting gear. It says they are prepared to deal with their opponent. To me that says they both have time to acquire whatever they want.

Okay, then.....

Cosmo-Knight acquires a Phase Beamer from his locale, the Three Galaxies, and continuously blasts away at the Mystic Knight from a safe distance until his PPE gives out (he can't cast protective spells if he has them) and he gets fried in his armor.

OR

Cosmo-Knight calls in a favor or two, rifts a Starship (and its crew) in from the SpaceGates on Center and blasts the Mystic Knight from beyond the M-Knight's range.

OR

Cosmo-Knight uses some the funds that he's acquired in the many years since he got from Level 1 to Level 15, buys a single-manned, atmospheric-capable craft (also from Center), and crashes it into the Mystic Knight since the CK will easily survive the explosion.

Just how far do you want to take the "fully loaded opponents" thing?

Or should we not just stick to having two opponents with the basic loadouts for their respective RCCs and go from there?

Y'know... Cornholioprime and I sometimes have not seen eye to eye on some matters within these forums... However, I have to agree with him whole-heartedly on this one. The truth is there are so many different ways to tweek and geek these two out due to the "EQ Acquired through 15 levels" clause as to make it relatively pointless. HECK! The MK could have found the Eternity Sword and the Cosmo-Knight found Castlerake!

See? It's pointless...

Steelbreeze wrote:and how well can he steer at 2.9 miles/second? lol

i have to ask this question too on page 164 of the hu galaxy guide it gives rules
for combat at mach speeds buy those rules there is a -2 per mach to all combat rolls.
so a cosmo-knight flying at mach 15 would have a -30 to hit or dodge anything.

so its going to have a hard time hitting a mk with intuitive combat ,multiple image, and superhuman speed.

As to the body block idea ..

I am extremely curious as to why you all think the MK would stay visible .. in combat with a being he know's can not see invisible in the first place ?

Very curious ..

Also curious as to why you think the MK would fight "fair" on any lvl of the meaning ?

again .. VERY curious ..

Lenwen wrote:As to the body block idea ..

I am extremely curious as to why you all think the MK would stay visible .. in combat with a being he know's can not see invisible in the first place ?

Very curious ..

Also curious as to why you think the MK would fight "fair" on any lvl of the meaning ?

again .. VERY curious ..

I would play BOTH characters smartly.

C-Knight simply outlasts the MK's spell protections -hovering in the sky well out of range of virtually any ranged weapon and using his telescopic sight to keep track of the enemy's location -then swoops in for the kill (or at least to try and spook the M-Knight).

Also, a 15th Level C-Knight isn't going to be surprised, or care how much the M-Knight will cheat; by 15th level, he'll probably disappointed if the guy doesn't try to pull a fast one.

Lenwen wrote:As to the body block idea ..

I am extremely curious as to why you all think the MK would stay visible .. in combat with a being he know's can not see invisible in the first place ?

Very curious ..

Also curious as to why you think the MK would fight "fair" on any lvl of the meaning ?

again .. VERY curious ..

What makes you think the cosmo knight dosn't have a way to see the invisible? what with there only being about a bajillion ways to get around it

just curious.

Just what makes you think that the MK has a clue he's about to be attacked or has ANY time whatsoever to prepare, beyond a heads up by sixth sense.

Just curious.

This battle could be fought with both knights stark naked.

Cain wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Jorel wrote:Nowhere in the OP does it say starting gear. It says they are prepared to deal with their opponent. To me that says they both have time to acquire whatever they want.

Okay, then.....

Cosmo-Knight acquires a Phase Beamer from his locale, the Three Galaxies, and continuously blasts away at the Mystic Knight from a safe distance until his PPE gives out (he can't cast protective spells if he has them) and he gets fried in his armor.

OR

Cosmo-Knight calls in a favor or two, rifts a Starship (and its crew) in from the SpaceGates on Center and blasts the Mystic Knight from beyond the M-Knight's range.

OR

Cosmo-Knight uses some the funds that he's acquired in the many years since he got from Level 1 to Level 15, buys a single-manned, atmospheric-capable craft (also from Center), and crashes it into the Mystic Knight since the CK will easily survive the explosion.

Just how far do you want to take the "fully loaded opponents" thing?

Or should we not just stick to having two opponents with the basic loadouts for their respective RCCs and go from there?

A 'safe' distance? Of 400 ft(122m), 800 ft(244m) or 1600 ft(488m)? Those are the ranges of Phase Beamers, and they are not 'safely out of range' of any weapons the Mystic Knight could acquire on Rifts earth, nor safelay out of range of all spells. The Phase weapons have low range compared to other guns in the 3-galaxies, to offset their power. They are also unlikely to bypass the armor of a mystic knight. Magic armor prevents the bypassing. You'd have to take out the armor's MDC completely before the beam would affect the creature wearing it (assuming his only defense is the armor he's wearing, and at 15th level this will simply not be so-- the mystic knight will have spells he can erect before and after his armor is toasted, that the phase beamer will also have to damage.

Furthermore, you are forgetting that the Cosmo-knight is not the only one with immunities and resistances to energy weapons. In fact, the Mystic Knight has superior damage immunity, and comparable resistance to the Cosmo-knight. Mystic Knights are Impervious to Energy: Impervious to Lasers, Ion Blasts, Particle Beams, Plasma Bolts, Electricity, fire, heat and radiation. Magically created energy and ley line storms inflict half damage.

Since it's not clearly stated in the Mystic Knight write-up, a GM's call is required on how to classify the Cosmo-knight's Cosmic Energy Blasts and the energy of a Phase Beamer. Myself, I would classify the phase beamer as regular non-magical energy, therefore doing NO damage to the mystic knight once it's taken out his magic shields and magic armor, it will do no damage at all to the knight. I would classify the Cosmic Energy Blasts of the Cosmo-knight as magical, therefore doing half damage to the Mystic Knight. No matter which way it is ruled, however, the phase beamer would clearly be a poor choice of weapon to use against the Mystic Knight in this scenario, and a cosmo-knight attempting to use a Phase Beamer from a 'safe range' to take out the Mystic Knight would find his tactics failing, and likely get the tables turned on him very quickly. They're too short ranged, and the Mystic Knight is either completely immune to them, or takes half damage from them, AND they won't bypass his armor (even a level 1 MK gets starting armor that is said to be likely crafted of magically created materials. A 15th level knight DEFINITELY has magic armor (even if you don't let us pimp him out realistically in sick magic armor with maxed out TW features added to it).



The Spacegates at Center can only pull a ship from where it is to Centre. They cannot send ships from Centre to anywhere else. And only the newly released top of the line Phase Drive can pull sihps from another dimension to Phaseworld, nay? While I'm sure there are many ways to rift a spaceship from the 3 G's to Rifts Earth, the Spacegates at center are not an option for that. Gateland couldn't be used unless it was a very small spacecraft (maybe a shuttle? No way in hell a full on sub-cap or capital starship could fit inside there to get rifted to Earth). Also, it would have to be rifted into Earth's Armosphere, nay? Orbital bombardment on earth doesn't work due to the lame 'killer satellites'. You'd have to take them and the space stations out first. You'd have to approach the Atlanteans, Splugorth or UWW to accomplish rifting a starship or two from Phaseworld to earth.

I'm don't even want to debate the idea of crashing a small spacecraft into the Mystic Knight, but I have to at least point this out. It's hard enough to hit a man-sized target on the ground while flying mach 15 as demonstrated above by the strike penatlies. Trying to do that with a space ship would be extremely difficult and unlikely even for an 'ace pilot' who gets OCC bonuses to piloting skills. Besides, even if the cosmo-knight rolled a natural 20 and hits the Mystic Knight with the spaceship, both Knights are just as immune to any fire/energy of the impact, and both will suffer kinetic damage. If the CK has a chance of surviving this, so does the MK (though the CK probably has more MDC and has a better chance of surviving, this tactic is not as sound as it would be if used against anything other than a MK).

Any CK player in my game that 'crashes a spaceship into something' better have a VERY good reason for doing so, if he doesn't wish to become a Fallen Knight. It better be a 'do this immediately or the world ends, there's no time to fight him man to man!' kind of scenario. Cosmo-knights uphold Fair Play and Honour as part of their code. A foe standing on the ground is pretty much helpless vs a spaceship crashing into them. Never attack a helpless foe. Taking a Mystic Knight on Man to Man on the other hand would be honourable. But using a SPACESHIP to fight a single man? That could also be considered cowardly in addition to dishourable and unfair-- and a third part of the Cosmo Knight's code is Valour. Three stikes agaisnt the code in one blow? I'd make the Knight fall immediately, and he'd best hope the Mystic Knight did not survive the crash or teleport away from it, because the Cosmo-knight will be severely weakened without his powers for the rest of the battle. He'd not yet have time to pick and develop magic or psi powers so soon after his fall-- that shouldn't happen within seconds or minutes of falling.

Do you understand that the ENTIRETY of that post was to point out the ridiculousness of "This Guy vs. That Guy" scenarios whereby one side or the other gets "their" guy to be armed to the teeth with any piece of Equipment that is available?

I am NOT for Guy A to be fighting Guy B with anything besides their basic OCC loadout.

In my not-so-humble opinion, the only intellectually honest way to determine the winner of a "this guy versus that guy" scenario, is for them both to fighting with the stuff that their OCC has them "born" with, and/or which they innately acquire through leveling up (i.e, just for a totally made-up example, a Mystic Kuyzna who gets awarded a Greater Rune Forging Item at level 10 or something). Nothing more.

Why would the OP say "time to prepare", if all they have time to get is what they start with? Wouldn't they just say "starting gear/load-out", if that is what they wanted to know?

cornholioprime wrote:In my not-so-humble opinion, the only intellectually honest way to determine the winner of a "this guy versus that guy" scenario, is for them both to fighting with the stuff that their OCC has them "born" with, and/or which they innately acquire through leveling up (i.e, just for a totally made-up example, a Mystic Kuyzna who gets awarded a Greater Rune Forging Item at level 10 or something). Nothing more.

So a class which wouldn't even be in this contest gets a magic weapon at a higher level, and they can use that, but anything that isn't directly stated in a class description isn't allowable. So again...why have time to prepare? Again I'm going by what the OP is asking, not how anyone else would set up this "ridiculous" matching.

Jorel wrote:Why would the OP say "time to prepare", if all they have time to get is what they start with? Wouldn't they just say "starting gear/load-out", if that is what they wanted to know?

Okay, then........the Cosmo-Knight gets to use his contacts to buy an Anti-Matter Warhead from Phase World.

Mystic-Knight is impervious to the energy resulting from the Matter/Anti-Matter intermix....but not the tremendous secondary effects of the explosion itself, not to mention the prompt radiation release, even if said knight rolls to dodge and take "only" half damage.

I ask, and ask, and ask again: does it really make sense to compare the two with anything that they can carry, or just their raw stats and any equipment assigned to their respective OCCs/RCCs??

So a class which wouldn't even be in this contest gets a magic weapon at a higher level, and they can use that, but anything that isn't directly stated in a class description isn't allowable.

I'm not sure what you mean by '...a class which wouldn't even be in this contest...' nor am I sure what you mean by 'magic weapon at a higher level' (the M-Knight gets a magic weapon, some common ancient weapons, and modern weaponry to start IIRC).

But other than that, and their respective level-up enhancements, that's all they should get as far as I'm concerned.

So again...why have time to prepare?

Since when does "prepare" involve being able to go to Ye Olde TW/Rune Weapon Shoppe (if one can even easily find one) and purchase anything you want (assuming that you can even buy anything you want with money/credits, which you can't)?

It seems obvious to me at least that the OP is allowing the M-Knight and the C-Knight time to prepare themselves personally before the battle proper begins (M-Knight casts protective spells as he deems necessary to take on a foe with these capabilities, Cosmo-Knight formulates strategies to take on a Knight impervious to his energy-expulsion powers as he deems fit).

Cain wrote:If the intention of your post is to point out the rediculousness of the thread, I would suggest not using equally rediculous arguments to point that out. Then I wouldn't feel compelled to tear it to shreds.

Phase Weapons aren't that useful vs a Mystic Knight, nor can you simply 'rift in' starships from the Promethean Phase Gates, nor should 'crashing ships into people' be a viable tactic for a Cosmo Knight to use.

At least make it look like you tried, and put some thought into it.

I'm not required to make a 100% airtight scenario in order to put forth a reducto ad absurdium rebuttal.

I'm only required to point out the logical uselessness of playing the 'bring anything you want to' game in a This Guy vs. That Guy scenario.

It's like asking "could Superman beat The Sentry?" but then allow The Sentry to bring along a Cosmic Cube, and Superman to don the Helmet of Fate -that is, then the contest turns into one of the extra equipment brought in to give one side or another the advantage, not a test of skills and strength and ability between the two Character Classes.

We're not being 'one-sided' here in that regard. We're going off what the books say about each class.

Since the books don't say anything specific about what the M-Knight gets to bring, or acquire over time, it's useless in a "A vs. B" scenario.
Anyone who wants a Mystic Knight to win could therefore "wish" virtually any weapon that he wants into the fight, like a sort of ersatz Batman Utility Belt that just happens to always have the right tool for the situation ("Mystic Knight.....uh.....has....the, um......RUNE SWORD OF 10D10 X 1000 DAMAGE LONG-RANGE MAGIC BLASTS, that he's kept in reserve for just such a time as this!!")

Maybe the OP should clarify what is being asked. It has already been pointed out that CK could have been Cyber-Knights or Cosmo-Knights. Perhaps they would like to clarify what gear and how much time is acceptable for preparation in this scenario. As if the concept of all of the classes involved aren't "absurd" or "ridiculous". It is a fantasy game.

Jorel wrote:Maybe the OP should clarify what is being asked. It has already been pointed out that CK could have been Cyber-Knights or Cosmo-Knights. Perhaps they would like to clarify what gear and how much time is acceptable for preparation in this scenario. As if the concept of all of the classes involved aren't "absurd" or "ridiculous". It is a fantasy game.

Just for the record, if the OP did mean "Cyber-Knight, then I think that that character gets his arse handed to him by the Mystic Knight.

Literally.

While he's still conscious to see it.