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Alright, well after Shiiva just kind of exploded spontaneously due to this class feature, I'd like to know how exactly other people would work with this situation: Let's say that some character has impervious to horror factor as a class feature, but you hate that the person doesn't need to make saves vs horror factor and want that person to make saves like everyone else, how exactly would you handle it? The thing is, because the OCC has impervious to horror factor as a class feature, it has no save vs horror factor progression. Would you go by the saving throw related to the power source, such as save vs magic against a cause fear? Or do you assign a hefty save bonus in place of the immunity?

im·mune [ih-myoon]; exempt or protected, not responsive or susceptible.

Immunity to Horror Factor means just that: you are totally, 100% unaffected. No need to even roll. That said, it's nto a very wide-spread rule. Off the top of my head, there is only one OCC in all of Palladium canon that gets such a thing, that being the Apok from Wormwood... and knowing no fear is one of the chief reason for playing one. To take that away from them, well, really sucks.

If you feel you must impose some kind of mechanic on it, then a +10 to save is ridiculously high enough to serve as "immune to horror factor", since you can look Death in the face and only need a 9+ to save.

Braden Campbell wrote:im·mune [ih-myoon]; exempt or protected, not responsive or susceptible.

Immunity to Horror Factor means just that: you are totally, 100% unaffected. No need to even roll. That said, it's nto a very wide-spread rule. Off the top of my head, there is only one OCC in all of Palladium canon that gets such a thing, that being the Apok from Wormwood... and knowing no fear is one of the chief reason for playing one. To take that away from them, well, really sucks.

If you feel you must impose some kind of mechanic on it, then a +10 to save is ridiculously high enough to serve as "immune to horror factor", since you can look Death in the face and only need a 9+ to save.

I believe in the Merc Sourcebook the Paratrooper O.C.C. ...Is immune to possession and Horror Factor

Immune to possesion too? Well, that makes him worse than an Apok.

Astral Pantheon wrote:

Braden Campbell wrote:im·mune [ih-myoon]; exempt or protected, not responsive or susceptible.

Immunity to Horror Factor means just that: you are totally, 100% unaffected. No need to even roll. That said, it's nto a very wide-spread rule. Off the top of my head, there is only one OCC in all of Palladium canon that gets such a thing, that being the Apok from Wormwood... and knowing no fear is one of the chief reason for playing one. To take that away from them, well, really sucks.

If you feel you must impose some kind of mechanic on it, then a +10 to save is ridiculously high enough to serve as "immune to horror factor", since you can look Death in the face and only need a 9+ to save.

I believe in the Merc Sourcebook the Paratrooper O.C.C. ...Is immune to possession and Horror Factor

I don't think they are immune to possession, perhaps a bonus to save.

The Magebane from that book might be immune to possession (they are also immune to horror factor too)

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Astral Pantheon wrote:

Braden Campbell wrote:im·mune [ih-myoon]; exempt or protected, not responsive or susceptible.

Immunity to Horror Factor means just that: you are totally, 100% unaffected. No need to even roll. That said, it's nto a very wide-spread rule. Off the top of my head, there is only one OCC in all of Palladium canon that gets such a thing, that being the Apok from Wormwood... and knowing no fear is one of the chief reason for playing one. To take that away from them, well, really sucks.

If you feel you must impose some kind of mechanic on it, then a +10 to save is ridiculously high enough to serve as "immune to horror factor", since you can look Death in the face and only need a 9+ to save.

I believe in the Merc Sourcebook the Paratrooper O.C.C. ...Is immune to possession and Horror Factor

I don't think they are immune to possession, perhaps a bonus to save.

The Magebane from that book might be immune to possession (they are also immune to horror factor too)

You may be right...Don't have the book anymore. But either way, there are other O.C.C. with Immunity to Horror Factor.

**Edit---the Paratrooper and tell us the immunities (I really thought it was both...but I have been wrong before )

Sorry, I Was wrong again (found a character sheet)....it was Immune to Horror Factor and Pain...thats not too bad either

If you can't scare the character, scare the player.

If the OCC states that the character is immune to something - horror factor, possession, magic, etc. - then they are immune. They shouldn't be penalized by having to make a saving throw roll if they aren't affected.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you can't scare the character, scare the player.

Yep. Having the player go "OH ****!" and it doesn't matter if he's impervious, made the save, or whatever. Works just as good (maybe even better)

Yeah well I mean I'm not having any issues with the whole immunity thing in the home run game. This just popped up during the beginning of the game session I was in with Shiiva, where supposedly she was trying to balance the encounter by not making my character immune to horror factor.

Severus Snape wrote:If the OCC states that the character is immune to something - horror factor, possession, magic, etc. - then they are immune. They shouldn't be penalized by having to make a saving throw roll if they aren't affected.

Yup.

I personally would say they're Impervious to Horror Factor.

If you're asking for suggestions about how to balance around removing these abilities, call it a +5 and call it a day.

Colt47 wrote:Yeah well I mean I'm not having any issues with the whole immunity thing in the home run game. This just popped up during the beginning of the game session I was in with Shiiva, where supposedly she was trying to balance the encounter by not making my character immune to horror factor.

Sounds bunk.
Demand compensation.

If a character is impervious to HF I still make them roll a saving throw. Roll a nat one and you fail, otherwise your just fine.

jedi078 wrote:If a character is impervious to HF I still make them roll a saving throw. Roll a nat one and you fail, otherwise your just fine.

The character wouldn't be impervious then.

Also, you just made every horror factor TN, from 1 to 1 million - failable 5% of the time, all of the time. That's the equivalent to being scared of your worst nightmare one day (reasonable), to being scared of a Dee-Bee infant the next (unreasonable).

Dog_O_War wrote:

jedi078 wrote:If a character is impervious to HF I still make them roll a saving throw. Roll a nat one and you fail, otherwise your just fine.

The character wouldn't be impervious then.

Also, you just made every horror factor TN, from 1 to 1 million - failable 5% of the time, all of the time. That's the equivalent to being scared of your worst nightmare one day (reasonable), to being scared of a Dee-Bee infant the next (unreasonable).

There should always be room for failure....

jedi078 wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

jedi078 wrote:If a character is impervious to HF I still make them roll a saving throw. Roll a nat one and you fail, otherwise your just fine.

The character wouldn't be impervious then.

Also, you just made every horror factor TN, from 1 to 1 million - failable 5% of the time, all of the time. That's the equivalent to being scared of your worst nightmare one day (reasonable), to being scared of a Dee-Bee infant the next (unreasonable).

There should always be room for failure....

While I agree that there should be room for failure in normal circumstances, in this case the character is immune to horror factor. This means that nothing frightens the character. Nothing. Meaning he would never fail to stand resolute in the face of the most vile horrors imaginable. Ever. Period. To say otherwise is bs.

Severus Snape wrote:

jedi078 wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

jedi078 wrote:If a character is impervious to HF I still make them roll a saving throw. Roll a nat one and you fail, otherwise your just fine.

The character wouldn't be impervious then.

Also, you just made every horror factor TN, from 1 to 1 million - failable 5% of the time, all of the time. That's the equivalent to being scared of your worst nightmare one day (reasonable), to being scared of a Dee-Bee infant the next (unreasonable).

There should always be room for failure....

While I agree that there should be room for failure in normal circumstances, in this case the character is immune to horror factor. This means that nothing frightens the character. Nothing. Meaning he would never fail to stand resolute in the face of the most vile horrors imaginable. Ever. Period. To say otherwise is bs.

Seconded.

I don't think people really realize that when you are holding a single dice, pre-roll probability for any facing is just as likely. You could say "Natural 10's are always a failure" and if that's the only number that fails, it's just as likely or unlikely as getting a 1, a straight 5% chance, which isn't terribly improbably. And as pointed out, that result means you could just get horrified. Keep in mind, that's what horror factor is, the effects of it are CRIPPLING in a fight, this isn't Oh I jump a bit', it's HOLY BEJEEZUS I'M LOOKING AT THE FACE OF DEATH, entire seconds of crippling fear that prevent even defense.

Sadly to me, there isn't enough range within the game to truly represent horror factor, with most D-Bees that are 'spooky' or odd getting 12ish (60% fail rate for typical), and truly horrific (Horror / Beast / etc) are in the 16-18 Range, not a huge step, when it should be like 6 to 24 on the high end, where you must have bonus to have a chance to stand that initial ground, but that's a rant for another time.

Giving that hardened monk that chance of failure undermines the character concept that they can look upon the face of evil and know only resolve and determination.

If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

I wish I had an answer for you on that. But I don't.

I've found that throughout the Palladium Megaverse there are things that just don't make sense. For example, can someone explain to me how a character with the Extraordinary Speed super power can stand still and punch/kick at 40 mph (getting a +8 to damage), but the same power also states that you need 10 feet for every 10 mph when building up speed?

Severus Snape wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

I wish I had an answer for you on that. But I don't.

I've found that throughout the Palladium Megaverse there are things that just don't make sense. For example, can someone explain to me how a character with the Extraordinary Speed super power can stand still and punch/kick at 40 mph (getting a +8 to damage), but the same power also states that you need 10 feet for every 10 mph when building up speed?

Because you can't automatically start off at 40mph running. Think of a car. If you set a car down with the wheels spinning fast enough for the car to go 40mph it is going to smoke the tires, do a burnout, and stay still. When running you need traction as well. Plus Spd isn't truly the same as acceleration. I dunno thats why that speed thing makes sense to me.

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

Yeah... I don't buy it.

For one thing, there's stuff that's a LOT scarier than death.
For another, different people are scared of different things. One person might be scared of spiders, but have no problem jumping out of an airplane. Another person might freak out if they tried parachuting, but they can eat live spiders for breakfast.

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

yeah sorry I can not buy that one. no matter how unafraid of death they claim to be faced with a being that radiates pure evil is gonna have an effect. I can understand not being affected by normal crap like the "horrors of war" but supernatural evil is just that supernatural. A high bonus to HF I wouldnt even question but immune? that is too far.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

yeah sorry I can not buy that one. no matter how unafraid of death they claim to be faced with a being that radiates pure evil is gonna have an effect. I can understand not being affected by normal crap like the "horrors of war" but supernatural evil is just that supernatural. A high bonus to HF I wouldnt even question but immune? that is too far.

You wouldn't, except death doesn't have any specific face. Your making a pretty big assumption.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

Yeah... I don't buy it.

For one thing, there's stuff that's a LOT scarier than death.
For another, different people are scared of different things. One person might be scared of spiders, but have no problem jumping out of an airplane. Another person might freak out if they tried parachuting, but they can eat live spiders for breakfast.

The truth is that a person is ALWAYS afraid of death or of getting killed. It is how you manage that fear. Do you let the fear control you, or do you use the fear to help you survive?

This IMO is how HF works. A demon come at you with the intent to kill you. Yes your afraid, but in that split second is your fear going to take control of your body? Maybe or maybe not. That is why, even if your supposedly immune to horror factor you can still be scared by that demon trying to kill you.

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Jorel wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:If the Class feature is used sparingly and applied intelligently then I have no problem with it.
Could someone please explain why a Paratrooper is able to look upon the face of a true supernatural horror and not even blink; let alone not **** himself?

Because...at some point he is ready for death at any moment. You know...when his chute doesn't doesn't open that one time like probability says it won't. See...when a person has confronted the inevitability that you will die...death isn't that frightening. And neither is some freak that might kill you.

yeah sorry I can not buy that one. no matter how unafraid of death they claim to be faced with a being that radiates pure evil is gonna have an effect. I can understand not being affected by normal crap like the "horrors of war" but supernatural evil is just that supernatural. A high bonus to HF I wouldnt even question but immune? that is too far.

You wouldn't, except death doesn't have any specific face. Your making a pretty big assumption.

and giving the class an immunity to HF is not an big assumption?

I don't question the illogical choices of the creator.

jedi078 wrote:The truth is that a person is ALWAYS afraid of death or of getting killed. It is how you manage that fear. Do you let the fear control you, or do you use the fear to help you survive?

I can go with that, in most cases at least.
But it nets out the same. Some people can manage their fear in certain situations, but not in others.

This IMO is how HF works. A demon come at you with the intent to kill you. Yes your afraid, but in that split second is your fear going to take control of your body? Maybe or maybe not. That is why, even if your supposedly immune to horror factor you can still be scared by that demon trying to kill you.

Originally, HF was supposed to be inflicted by the evil aura of supernatural creatures; it was a magical effect.

Ah, the good old days...

People, as fear is an emotion, its presence is a measurable one.
It's an involuntary chemical reaction.

And because it can be measured and classified, it can be controlled. For all we know, OCCs such as the Mage Bane and the Paratrooper have curbed their fears through drugs (magical or otherwise), or through some made-up mental mitigating exercise where they have learned to think away their fear instantaneously. Or maybe they have an implant.

In the end though it doesn't matter; fear, like your bladder, can be controlled. We have been doing this kind of thing with emotions for thousands of years; it's not impossible. Hell, there probably isn't a person in here who hasn't suppressed a smile when something they shouldn't laugh at happens (but is funny nonetheless).

To further reinforce this; suicide. Fear is a basic survival instinct response; that we can override it (suicide) means that it most certainly can be controlled.

I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

ditto

Then don't use it for the class if it doesn't makes sense? Seriously!

For a class like the Apok, it makes PERFECT sense for them to be immune to horror factor. Why? Because they have walked amongst demons and monsters without fear. Not only that, but they have been forced to look at the darkness in their own soul. Like the book says, there is no greater fear. These guys are SUPPOSED to be able to walk up to some slobbering monstrosity and spit in it's eye(s) without even blinking about it. P

The Paratrooper...? Not so much...

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Are you saying that the men and women who jump out of planes with canvas chutes into MD anti-air fire would otherwise be fearful of crap like BB-6 revolvers (because big revolvers are scary), the Altara BWW's "killer rep", OCCs like the gunslinger, or "disturbing" Dee-Bees such as the Centaur, Cactus-People, and Trimadore?

'Cause I think that being afraid of that stuff is not something I can buy. At least as far as the Paratrooper OCC goes.


That said, there seems to be no middle ground; no "mid-level" fear that an OCC can be immune to, while still possibly scared of creepy nightmare-monsters.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Are you saying that the men and women who jump out of planes with canvas chutes into MD anti-air fire would otherwise be fearful of crap like BB-6 revolvers (because big revolvers are scary), the Altara BWW's "killer rep", OCCs like the gunslinger, or "disturbing" Dee-Bees such as the Centaur, Cactus-People, and Trimadore?

'Cause I think that being afraid of that stuff is not something I can buy. At least as far as the Paratrooper OCC goes.


That said, there seems to be no middle ground; no "mid-level" fear that an OCC can be immune to, while still possibly scared of creepy nightmare-monsters.

a high bonus to save I can buy. not an immunity.

Johnathan wrote:Then don't use it for the class if it doesn't makes sense? Seriously!

For a class like the Apok, it makes PERFECT sense for them to be immune to horror factor. Why? Because they have walked amongst demons and monsters without fear. Not only that, but they have been forced to look at the darkness in their own soul. Like the book says, there is no greater fear. These guys are SUPPOSED to be able to walk up to some slobbering monstrosity and spit in it's eye(s) without even blinking about it. P

The Paratrooper...? Not so much...

The Apok lives in a mickey-mouse world as far as Rifts is concerned. Sure, Wormwood is "scary" in that it has demons and magic and what-not.

Rifts though has magic-wielding demons who use modern weapons you'd typically mount on APCs and Tanks. And Paratroopers fight these things without any amount of crazy immunities (beyond fear), supernatural strength (most of the time), or some other magical edge. Hell, these OCCs might even be working along-side demons; it'd be very humbling to work beside an "icon of fear" (Demons and what-not).

Beyond the explanation of "magic", the Apok has no real reason to be any more immune to fear than a Paratrooper has. In fact, it has less.

Building on that; magic in Rifts often does not even compare to technology; why then is it so hard for some of you to accept that non-magical solutions to problems are just as good?

Dog_O_War wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Are you saying that the men and women who jump out of planes with canvas chutes into MD anti-air fire would otherwise be fearful of crap like BB-6 revolvers (because big revolvers are scary), the Altara BWW's "killer rep", OCCs like the gunslinger, or "disturbing" Dee-Bees such as the Centaur, Cactus-People, and Trimadore?

Actually, I don't think that any of those things should have Horror Factors in the first place.
And why should they be any more resistant to Horror Factor than Grunts who undergo heavy fire?

And are you saying that somebody who jumps out of an airplane wouldn't be scared when sees that he's going to land on Cthulu?

That said, there seems to be no middle ground; no "mid-level" fear that an OCC can be immune to, while still possibly scared of creepy nightmare-monsters.

Situational bonuses would make sense.
If they want to make Paratroopers impervious to Horror Factor related to falling, or maybe to enemy artillery, I could kind of see that (though it should still just be a high bonus).
But none of that prepares them for demons and supernatural threats.

Or you could just say, "Impervious / Bonus to HF from non-Magic or Supernatural causes". That way they too can look down the barrel of a big O' Hand Cannon without fear! But still crap themselves when Netosa sneezes again.

Cinos wrote:Or you could just say, "Impervious / Bonus to HF from non-Magic or Supernatural causes". That way they too can look down the barrel of a big O' Hand Cannon without fear! But still crap themselves when Netosa sneezes again.

Exactly.

(Although I maintain that guns shouldn't have a horror factor in the first place. But what're ya gonna do?)

I'd like HF better if it didn't max out at 20.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Are you saying that the men and women who jump out of planes with canvas chutes into MD anti-air fire would otherwise be fearful of crap like BB-6 revolvers (because big revolvers are scary), the Altara BWW's "killer rep", OCCs like the gunslinger, or "disturbing" Dee-Bees such as the Centaur, Cactus-People, and Trimadore?

Actually, I don't think that any of those things should have Horror Factors in the first place.
And why should they be any more resistant to Horror Factor than Grunts who undergo heavy fire?

'Cause that's what the training says. It's as good a reason as 'magic'.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And are you saying that somebody who jumps out of an airplane wouldn't be scared when sees that he's going to land on Cthulu?

As Cthulu is a cross-RPG "thingy", he'd need to be converted, which we can't do, so I won't worry about what would happen if...

On the other hand, against a Cthulu-esque horror; it's nothing new. In Rifts, there are half-a dozen known nations/factions that can wipe clean the face of the planet. One "scary guy" in a world populated by gods and demons is just another face in the crowd.

So what I'm saying is that a somebody who jumps out of an airplane with an otherwise "mundane" immune to fear ability is going to be as un-scared as a guy with a magical immunity to fear.

And to summarize what I've said in my other posts about fear; it's an emotion. It can be controlled. Let's not get hung up on the how.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:That said, there seems to be no middle ground; no "mid-level" fear that an OCC can be immune to, while still possibly scared of creepy nightmare-monsters.

Situational bonuses would make sense.
If they want to make Paratroopers impervious to Horror Factor related to falling, or maybe to enemy artillery, I could kind of see that (though it should still just be a high bonus).
But none of that prepares them for demons and supernatural threats.

You're right.

Though being in a world full of supernatural threats in a military that more than likely fights them on a regular basis, then asks you to jump out of planes in personal armour to combat them would prepare a person.
That is, you're getting hung up on the how.

Finally; horror factor.
There is no scale telling us when it's a magical effect, or a visual/audio effect. It covers looks and reputation exclusively as far as I know, barring a few spells that actually need to be cast (and even then, the effect is visual).

So what about a scary sight is it that we cannot steel ourselves against?

I mean honestly; I've seen freakier crap in movies than the stuff portrayed as "scary" in Rifts. For instance, vampires; They have a horror factor. They look human (often completely) though, but can "bare their fangs and claws" for a horrifying effect. We've all seen dozens of vampire movies, and I don't really think they are going to get much scarier than the images that come from our own minds. Yet they have a horror factor. Because people in the future who went through a literal hell (complete with demons) are somehow less desensitized than people from the 20th century are.

Effectively, visuals are almost undeserving of a horror-factor element, yet that is the basis for horror factor. So having a "normal guy" OCC that's immune to horrific sights is not that significant.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can buy it for some classes, just not paratrooper.

Are you saying that the men and women who jump out of planes with canvas chutes into MD anti-air fire would otherwise be fearful of crap like BB-6 revolvers (because big revolvers are scary), the Altara BWW's "killer rep", OCCs like the gunslinger, or "disturbing" Dee-Bees such as the Centaur, Cactus-People, and Trimadore?

Actually, I don't think that any of those things should have Horror Factors in the first place.
And why should they be any more resistant to Horror Factor than Grunts who undergo heavy fire?

'Cause that's what the training says. It's as good a reason as 'magic'.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And are you saying that somebody who jumps out of an airplane wouldn't be scared when sees that he's going to land on Cthulu?

As Cthulu is a cross-RPG "thingy", he'd need to be converted, which we can't do, so I won't worry about what would happen if...

On the other hand, against a Cthulu-esque horror; it's nothing new. In Rifts, there are half-a dozen known nations/factions that can wipe clean the face of the planet. One "scary guy" in a world populated by gods and demons is just another face in the crowd.

So what I'm saying is that a somebody who jumps out of an airplane with an otherwise "mundane" immune to fear ability is going to be as un-scared as a guy with a magical immunity to fear.

And to summarize what I've said in my other posts about fear; it's an emotion. It can be controlled. Let's not get hung up on the how.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:That said, there seems to be no middle ground; no "mid-level" fear that an OCC can be immune to, while still possibly scared of creepy nightmare-monsters.

Situational bonuses would make sense.
If they want to make Paratroopers impervious to Horror Factor related to falling, or maybe to enemy artillery, I could kind of see that (though it should still just be a high bonus).
But none of that prepares them for demons and supernatural threats.

You're right.

Though being in a world full of supernatural threats in a military that more than likely fights them on a regular basis, then asks you to jump out of planes in personal armour to combat them would prepare a person.
That is, you're getting hung up on the how.

Finally; horror factor.
There is no scale telling us when it's a magical effect, or a visual/audio effect. It covers looks and reputation exclusively as far as I know, barring a few spells that actually need to be cast (and even then, the effect is visual).

So what about a scary sight is it that we cannot steel ourselves against?

I mean honestly; I've seen freakier crap in movies than the stuff portrayed as "scary" in Rifts. For instance, vampires; They have a horror factor. They look human (often completely) though, but can "bare their fangs and claws" for a horrifying effect. We've all seen dozens of vampire movies, and I don't really think they are going to get much scarier than the images that come from our own minds. Yet they have a horror factor. Because people in the future who went through a literal hell (complete with demons) are somehow less desensitized than people from the 20th century are.

Effectively, visuals are almost undeserving of a horror-factor element, yet that is the basis for horror factor. So having a "normal guy" OCC that's immune to horrific sights is not that significant.

incorrect. I refer you to page 367 of RUE the section on Horror Factor.

Key words emphasized by me.

R:UE wrote:The horror factor represents either the hideous appearance or its overwhelming aura of evil and power or a combination of the two.

so clearly appearance is not all that determines HF.

I agree with Dog_O_War.

These guys are the elite of the elite in terms of military training. Best of the best type stuff. As the book mentions they aren't just a "paratrooper" they are US Marines, Army Rangers and Navy SEALS rolled in one. They are the super-soldier through training, not augmentation like the Juicer or Borg.

I'd say look at the movie "Soldier" as a good example of the Paratrooper - but it's been perfected in that the Paratrooper OCC training doesn't suppress the personality.


Personally I've always used HF as more of a role-playing thing, and seldom used it's actual game effects (which I found to be minimal)

Dog_O_War wrote:why should they be any more resistant to Horror Factor than Grunts who undergo heavy fire?

'Cause that's what the training says. It's as good a reason as 'magic'.[/quote]

No, it's really, really, really not.
Training is real.
Magic is not.
Having something real do absurd things is different from having something fictional do absurd things.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And are you saying that somebody who jumps out of an airplane wouldn't be scared when sees that he's going to land on Cthulu?

As Cthulu is a cross-RPG "thingy", he'd need to be converted, which we can't do, so I won't worry about what would happen if...

There's no copyright on any of Lovecraft's work.

On the other hand, against a Cthulu-esque horror; it's nothing new. In Rifts, there are half-a dozen known nations/factions that can wipe clean the face of the planet. One "scary guy" in a world populated by gods and demons is just another face in the crowd.

I didn't say "scary guy."
I said "Cthulu."
(You can go "Cthulu-like" if you want, but it nets out the same. )
If you don't get the difference between the two, then you don't get the scenario I asked about.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Situational bonuses would make sense.
If they want to make Paratroopers impervious to Horror Factor related to falling, or maybe to enemy artillery, I could kind of see that (though it should still just be a high bonus).
But none of that prepares them for demons and supernatural threats.

You're right.

Though being in a world full of supernatural threats in a military that more than likely fights them on a regular basis, then asks you to jump out of planes in personal armour to combat them would prepare a person.[/quote]

No, it wouldn't.
If it DID, then Grunts would have the same ability. A giant critter about to swallow your soul is a giant critter about to swallow your soul, and it's not significantly scarier if you jumped out of an airplane first.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:I agree with Dog_O_War.

These guys are the elite of the elite in terms of military training. Best of the best type stuff. As the book mentions they aren't just a "paratrooper" they are US Marines, Army Rangers and Navy SEALS rolled in one.

If Marines, Rangers, or SEALS were immune to fear when demons are after them, that'd matter.
But they're not.

Personally I've always used HF as more of a role-playing thing, and seldom used it's actual game effects (which I found to be minimal)

Seriously?
The scared person loses an attack and can't defend against the next attack from whatever scared them.
That can cause a battle to be won or lost right there.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Seriously?
The scared person loses an attack and can't defend against the next attack from whatever scared them.
That can cause a battle to be won or lost right there.

They loose one attack and can't defend against the creature's first attack, and attacked last in the melee according to the old RMB (changed that up I believe in RUE). Since the creature itself has no way of knowing who is or isn't affected by its HF, who it attacked I always determined that randomly. So if they failed their save, but didn't get attacked, that was it and were able to act normal, although last for that melee. Actually my players sometimes found a tactical advantage to going last in the melee.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Seriously?
The scared person loses an attack and can't defend against the next attack from whatever scared them.
That can cause a battle to be won or lost right there.

They loose one attack and can't defend against the creature's first attack, and attacked last in the melee according to the old RMB (changed that up I believe in RUE). Since the creature itself has no way of knowing who is or isn't affected by its HF, who it attacked I always determined that randomly. So if they failed their save, but didn't get attacked, that was it and were able to act normal, although last for that melee. Actually my players sometimes found a tactical advantage to going last in the melee.

Not last to be attack. Last to act in initiative. always been that way.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:They [lose] one attack and can't defend against the creature's first attack, and [attacks] last in the melee according to the old RMB (changed that up I believe in RUE). Since the creature itself has no way of knowing who is or isn't affected by its HF, who it attacked I always determined that randomly. So if they failed their save, but didn't get attacked, that was it and were able to act normal, although last for that melee. Actually my players sometimes found a tactical advantage to going last in the melee.

The people spending their first attack/action quivering in fear, crapping their pants, and/or running away are probably the ones that the horror factor worked against. Not that tricky for most creatures to notice.

On a bad day, one supernatural creature can make every single member of the party each lose an attack. That's a pretty impressive power.

And there can be a tactical advantage to going last in the melee, but only if you don't get killed or beat up in the mean time.

Also, I'm unaware of any rule stating that only one Horror Factor applies per combat (though that may indeed be the way it's intended to be played).
Which means that technically, if the party is fighting a dozen wild vampires, each member of the party could lose 12 attacks that first melee round. For most characters, this would mean they didn't get to attack at all, and the vamps had a free round to tear everybody up.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:They [lose] one attack and can't defend against the creature's first attack, and [attacks] last in the melee according to the old RMB (changed that up I believe in RUE). Since the creature itself has no way of knowing who is or isn't affected by its HF, who it attacked I always determined that randomly. So if they failed their save, but didn't get attacked, that was it and were able to act normal, although last for that melee. Actually my players sometimes found a tactical advantage to going last in the melee.

The people spending their first attack/action quivering in fear, crapping their pants, and/or running away are probably the ones that the horror factor worked against. Not that tricky for most creatures to notice.

On a bad day, one supernatural creature can make every single member of the party each lose an attack. That's a pretty impressive power.

And there can be a tactical advantage to going last in the melee, but only if you don't get killed or beat up in the mean time.

Also, I'm unaware of any rule stating that only one Horror Factor applies per combat (though that may indeed be the way it's intended to be played).
Which means that technically, if the party is fighting a dozen wild vampires, each member of the party could lose 12 attacks that first melee round. For most characters, this would mean they didn't get to attack at all, and the vamps had a free round to tear everybody up.

It's much harder that it would seem. I've always read it as a person is "frozen in place" with "momentary" fear - a single attack. I don't think it says anything about a person running away or putting their head in the sand or some such. If it did then I missed it.

I'd also point out that I've never had group just walking around Rifts Earth like they are on the Yellow Brick Road. They are always dispersered. So the monster scared the guy 50 meters away? Great, it just has to deal with the guy walking point. There's that tactical advantage coming into play.

There's also no way I'm rolling dice multiple times for a bunch of monsters, and forcing my players to counter each roll.