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The way our group does it:

1. If it's a stat that you're testing against (say, you need to make a PP check), you roll d20 and have to get under your stat to succeed. A natural 1 is always a success, and a natural 20 is always a failure.

2. If it's an opposed roll:

• If the players have the same stat, they roll d20s.
• If one player has a higher stat than another, both players roll a d20. The player with the lower stat gets a penalty equal to 1/2 the difference between the two stats, rounded up. For example, PC A has a PP of 20, and PC B has a PP of 15. There is a difference of 5, and half that (rounded up) would be 3. PC A rolls d20, while PC B rolls d20-3.
• In both of these instances, the higher roll wins. In these cases, a natural 1 is a failure, while a natural 20 is a success. If both players roll a natural 1 or both players roll a natural 20, they both roll again. You can't have both fail or both succeed when they are making an opposed roll.

Does this help?

Do you want PS 4 guys beating ST 24 guys? Then, do D20 + Stat vs. D20 + Stat. It's swingy, random and works for the gonzo where the the gnome occassionally flips the ogre. In the case of a base check, you make it D20 + Stat vs. Target Number chosen by GM.

You can make it less swingy if you use D6 + Stat or D10 + Stat, but then the gnome never beats the ogre in thumbwrestling. The die size you choose creates the "reality" factor in your game so choose wisely.

You could also do the old Comparison Chart that games like Gamma World, RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu use. Essentially, Player Stat - Opposting Stat gives you a number and you add/subtract that from 10. That becomes the TN for a straight D20 roll for success.

Gnome PS 4 vs. Ogre PS 24 is -20 for the gnome. He must roll a 30 or higher on D20 to successfully wrestle the ogre. Since this is impossible, the GM is nice and says roll a natural 20 to make it happen. If the ogre is the PC, the GM says he only fails on a natural 1.

Gnome IQ 14 vs. Ogre 8 is +6 for a game of chess. The Gnome must roll 4+ to beat the Ogre or the Ogre must roll 16+ to beat the Gnome.

For easy reference, you can easily create a 1-30 vs. 1-30 chart. In Rifts where you have stuff like Natural vs. Robotic vs. Supernatural strength, you need to decide how that modifies your chart.

If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

I use the D20 under the stat with situational modifiers, so far no problems with it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

Is there a book and page for this? Or is this direct from Kevin? (just curious...) I have been around here long enough to know that it is the canon way but I have never found out how we know this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

I got notes somewhere around my house, that I got from someone here, that used the same method, but with multipliers based on how difficult the stat check should be. If I can find them again, I'll repost them since I can't find the original thread.

I have both roll D20 subtract it from the stat whoever has the better number wins. I do like the natural 1 is auto success and natural 20 an auto fail though.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

Is there a book and page for this? Or is this direct from Kevin? (just curious...) I have been around here long enough to know that it is the canon way but I have never found out how we know this.

It originally came from Palladium staffers online, and I believe that it was eventually confirmed by Kevin.
Also, it actually works out in such a way that it fits the rest of the system; the base percentages for skills are typically low enough that attributes are comparable for somebody trying to improvise.

It'd be nice if they put it in a book, though.

Abub wrote:so in opposed checks... would you keep rolling until one side succeeds and the other fails? If its a strength check how would you mix in Supernatural and Robotic strengths?

depends how close the 2 strengths are to each other...
If the carry/lifts are close (very rare) then its a roll off with the higher strength step getting a "bonus" to his roll. if they aint even close (IE: a norm vs SNPS) the highest tier wins period.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

Is there a book and page for this? Or is this direct from Kevin? (just curious...) I have been around here long enough to know that it is the canon way but I have never found out how we know this.

It originally came from Palladium staffers online, and I believe that it was eventually confirmed by Kevin.
Also, it actually works out in such a way that it fits the rest of the system; the base percentages for skills are typically low enough that attributes are comparable for somebody trying to improvise.

It'd be nice if they put it in a book, though.

Actually, this is covered in the Nightbane Q&A section of Rifter #48. Just not in the way you describe.

Just as an FYI, Arms of Nargash Tor adventure uses D20 against attribute. In PFRPG 1E high attributes are rarer than most of the games, so it worked pretty good I'd say.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

how are there apropriate atts if virtualy every skill in the game uses IQ for its bonus?

GMs call.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

how are there apropriate atts if virtualy every skill in the game uses IQ for its bonus?

It's not always clear which attribute to use, but a fairly clear case would be when trying to Prowl (without having Prowl as a skill), you'd have to roll under your Physical Prowess attribute number using percentile dice.

besides the d20 with modifiers, or the % roll under attribute, you could use a system of xD6s under the attribute with the x being how difficult. Works well in the 3-24 range, or just add a 1 or 2d6 if you got super high attributes.

instead of adding modifiers, just adjust x up or down

Example:
Extremely easy 1d6 under attribute
easy 2d6
average 3d6
hard 4d6
very hard 5d6
never tell me the odds 6d6
etc.

if you got a 14 and it is easy (2d6) don't even bother rolling, you succeed. But your pal might have a 10, and need to roll. Such as climbing a tree with low sturdy branches using P.P.

I use -

Roll D20, get under the attribute for a success. nat 20 is an automatic fail (as well as being a fail if the attribute is over 20). fast and has worked ok so far.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

lather wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

how are there apropriate atts if virtualy every skill in the game uses IQ for its bonus?

It's not always clear which attribute to use, but a fairly clear case would be when trying to Prowl (without having Prowl as a skill), you'd have to roll under your Physical Prowess attribute number using percentile dice.

if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Do you know how best to step so as to make no sound?
How to move so as to not be seen.
Where to move so as to stay out of line of sight?
All of these are covered by the prowl skill.
Intelligence would/should give a bonus in that case.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

how are there apropriate atts if virtualy every skill in the game uses IQ for its bonus?

GMs call.

GMs call is code for "the rules arent very good at it" right?

Not really its code for no game can cover every situation perfectly and the GM is there to cover those that the game does not.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

lather wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you're defaulting a skill, the official way is to roll percentile dice, trying to roll under the appropriate attribute.

how are there apropriate atts if virtualy every skill in the game uses IQ for its bonus?

It's not always clear which attribute to use, but a fairly clear case would be when trying to Prowl (without having Prowl as a skill), you'd have to roll under your Physical Prowess attribute number using percentile dice.

if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

You're asking the wrong person. But I have an opinion as to why; the author seems to have thought that the smarter you are the more likely you are to do the things you know how to do better.

I would not be opposed to issuing a P.P. bonus to skills utilizing physical prowess, but that's a different and more complicated subject altogether.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Because IQ provides a bonus to ALL skills.
Being smart gives you an edge in everything.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Because IQ provides a bonus to ALL skills.
Being smart gives you an edge in everything.

so THATS why dudes with a nobel prize are better at cooking & driving than everyone else

Peole with high I.Q.s aren't better than "everyone else," just better than the average vis-a-vis the Palladium system.

Oh, and to a certain extent this is true in real life as well, as learning new things tends to be a bit easier on average for those with higher I.Q.s. That said, I.Q. is far from being everything (especially when you start looking at natural aptitudes), but it's the most common of the attribute constructs that applies on such a wide basis. I would personally argue that P.P. comes a close second with many of the physical skills and others that require manual dexterity, but stacking a skill bonus on top of the combat bonuses this attribute already gives would just be silly from a game-balance standpoint.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Because I.Q more or less shows a persons learning rate, and how quickly one can figure out what they're doing wrong, and applying those situational changes in life to better benefit from them, and avoid their draw backs. P.P is raw coordination, which has less to do with sneaking then people credit to it. As long as you don't bump into things, it's rarely a factor, and has more to do with burst speed (flashing by when you know it's not being looked at), and the ability to guess and abuse situations, and a HUGE measure of patience. The most PP would really affect things is being able to move through cluttered ground and slow pressure on ones feet, but a smart person will learn that pretty fast.

However, if something forces one to fall back on natural ability, PP is the closest thing to it. However, I don't ever see the need for a GM to declare someone can't use Prowl, and must use an Attribute check to Prowl, and if they do, they're bad at the whole GMing thing.

Cinos wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Because I.Q more or less shows a persons learning rate, and how quickly one can figure out what they're doing wrong, and applying those situational changes in life to better benefit from them, and avoid their draw backs. P.P is raw coordination, which has less to do with sneaking then people credit to it. As long as you don't bump into things, it's rarely a factor, and has more to do with burst speed (flashing by when you know it's not being looked at), and the ability to guess and abuse situations, and a HUGE measure of patience. The most PP would really affect things is being able to move through cluttered ground and slow pressure on ones feet, but a smart person will learn that pretty fast.

However, if something forces one to fall back on natural ability, PP is the closest thing to it. However, I don't ever see the need for a GM to declare someone can't use Prowl, and must use an Attribute check to Prowl, and if they do, they're bad at the whole GMing thing.

I have always just used the base percentage chance of the skill if the character does not have said skill (IQ bonus may apply). certain skills (those requiring intensive training such as Surgery) there is no chance of attempting.
ymmv

Cinos wrote:However, if something forces one to fall back on natural ability, PP is the closest thing to it. However, I don't ever see the need for a GM to declare someone can't use Prowl, and must use an Attribute check to Prowl, and if they do, they're bad at the whole GMing thing.

How do you figure?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Cinos wrote:However, if something forces one to fall back on natural ability, PP is the closest thing to it. However, I don't ever see the need for a GM to declare someone can't use Prowl, and must use an Attribute check to Prowl, and if they do, they're bad at the whole GMing thing.

How do you figure?

Because if you're saying someone can't use their skill in a situation that should use the skill, and instead default to a different method of checking, you're not thinking clearly and likely shouldn't be given your car keys (That might just be a Wisconsin thing though).

That's like saying you can't shoot your gun when you're shooting your gun, and can't change weapons because you're shooting your gun, so you have to use your weapon as a club instead of shooting your gun. It's so rife with logical fallacy I can't even describe it . . .

To make sure what I orginally said was clear;

Player: Ok, I make a Pilot Robot check to fly into the narrow cayon without clipping my wings <Rolls> Fourty two, so pass my skill by 31.
GM: No, hold up, because it's a stressful combat, your not thinking straight, make a PP check instead of a skill roll.
Player: You been drinking my vokda?

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:if PP is the best stat for prowl why is IQ the stat that give it a skill bonus?

Because IQ provides a bonus to ALL skills.
Being smart gives you an edge in everything.

so THATS why dudes with a nobel prize are better at cooking & driving than everyone else

It is simple to do it the way it does it. Perhaps even too simple. But being more complex about it and trying to pair attributes with skills introduces problems of its own. Climbing requires physical strength, dexterity, and conditioning. Which attribute should you use: one, two, all three?

Cinos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Cinos wrote:However, if something forces one to fall back on natural ability, PP is the closest thing to it. However, I don't ever see the need for a GM to declare someone can't use Prowl, and must use an Attribute check to Prowl, and if they do, they're bad at the whole GMing thing.

How do you figure?

Because if you're saying someone can't use their skill in a situation that should use the skill, and instead default to a different method of checking, you're not thinking clearly and likely shouldn't be given your car keys (That might just be a Wisconsin thing though).

That's like saying you can't shoot your gun when you're shooting your gun, and can't change weapons because you're shooting your gun, so you have to use your weapon as a club instead of shooting your gun. It's so rife with logical fallacy I can't even describe it . . .

To make sure what I orginally said was clear;

Player: Ok, I make a Pilot Robot check to fly into the narrow cayon without clipping my wings <Rolls> Fourty two, so pass my skill by 31.
GM: No, hold up, because it's a stressful combat, your not thinking straight, make a PP check instead of a skill roll.
Player: You been drinking my vokda?

Are you assuming that the person attempting the skill already HAS the skill?

Because I'm pretty sure that's not what the rest of us are talking about.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you assuming that the person attempting the skill already HAS the skill?

Because I'm pretty sure that's not what the rest of us are talking about.

Well you're the one who quoted the off handed comment and not the bulk of my post, so you'll get a comment about what you replied to