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Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:46 am**

We have spells of legend, what would you think of Psionics of legend.Psychic Disciplines/Powers a cut above the norm in range/effect? And does anyone have suggestions on possible powers that could be used and penalties for developing them?

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:39 pm**

1. There should be a different name, even if they're the psionic equivalent. Come to think of it, Super Psionics might BE the closest equivalent.
2. Palladium's psychic powers are mostly grounded in "real" psychic powers, so I tend to think that any future powers should be grounded in either real-world alleged psychic phenomena or in existing Palladium psychic powers.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:24 pm**

... Why would you NEED a higher level of psi powers? Are they not broken and overpowered enough for you?

Also, spells and psi are VERY different. Spells are a learned thing, essentially a "science". They can be studied and created. Psi powers are NOT done like that. You can't study them and learn them.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:31 pm**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:... Why would you NEED a higher level of psi powers? Are they not broken and overpowered enough for you?

Broken?

Overpowered? :?:

I am afraid I just can not see it... Sorry.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:43 pm**

Greetings!

I agree that Psionic Powers, including Super/Master Psionic Powers are not broken.

To the Original Poster: The only examples would be: Proffessor X level of Telepathic Power (Control, Communications and Trickery). If I think of any more then I shall post them.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:49 pm**

Johnathan wrote:
Goliath Strongarm wrote:... Why would you NEED a higher level of psi powers? Are they not broken and overpowered enough for you?

Broken?

Overpowered?

I am afraid I just can not see it... Sorry.

Telepathy lets you read anybody's mind, without alerting them to the fact, without any savings throw unless they know you can read minds, and are deliberately trying to block you.
Telemechanics lets you use any technological device proficiently.
Other powers are essentially "save or die" powers that let you take somebody out of the picture with one attack if they roll poorly.
Telekinesis lets you pick people up and chuck them off a cliff, and they don't really have any way to defend against it. Or you can hit them in the head with a Buick, or a Glitter Boy, if you have enough ISP.

That's all pretty powerful stuff.

Edit: fixed a typo where I swapped PPE for ISP

Posted: **Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:34 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Johnathan wrote:
Goliath Strongarm wrote:... Why would you NEED a higher level of psi powers? Are they not broken and overpowered enough for you?

Broken?

Overpowered?

I am afraid I just can not see it... Sorry.

Telepathy lets you read anybody's mind, without alerting them to the fact, without any savings throw unless they know you can read minds, and are deliberately trying to block you.
Telemechanics lets you use any technological device proficiently.
Other powers are essentially "save or die" powers that let you take somebody out of the picture with one attack if they roll poorly.
Telekinesis lets you pick people up and chuck them off a cliff, and they don't really have any way to defend against it. Or you can hit them in the head with a Buick, or a Glitter Boy, if you have enough PPE.

That's all pretty powerful stuff.

A lot of psi powers are equal to, or greater than, their magical counterparts. Throw on top of that that psionics are faster (equal speed to H2H attack, instead of the spells/round issue). Plus, when mumbling spells there is a chance someone will hear you. If captured, they rip out your tongue. Do you see this issue with psi? NOPE.

Posted: **Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:05 pm**

It's a much bigger problem in Palladium fantasy than Rifts. In Palladium Fantasy a Mind Mage can be a kickass fighter and have all these awsome powers on top. There's also far fewer special races so bonus's tend to be lower. and psionics tend to be less rare overall.

If your playing Rifts and almost always fighting demons and high powered badasses who all have mind block yea. in PF your almost always fighting ordianry humans for 90% of the game.

Posted: **Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:23 am**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Johnathan wrote:
Goliath Strongarm wrote:... Why would you NEED a higher level of psi powers? Are they not broken and overpowered enough for you?

Broken?

Overpowered?

I am afraid I just can not see it... Sorry.

Telepathy lets you read anybody's mind, without alerting them to the fact, without any savings throw unless they know you can read minds, and are deliberately trying to block you.
Telemechanics lets you use any technological device proficiently.
Other powers are essentially "save or die" powers that let you take somebody out of the picture with one attack if they roll poorly.
Telekinesis lets you pick people up and chuck them off a cliff, and they don't really have any way to defend against it. Or you can hit them in the head with a Buick, or a Glitter Boy, if you have enough I.S.P..

That's all pretty powerful stuff.

A lot of psi powers are equal to, or greater than, their magical counterparts. Throw on top of that that psionics are faster (equal speed to H2H attack, instead of the spells/round issue). Plus, when mumbling spells there is a chance someone will hear you. If captured, they rip out your tongue. Do you see this issue with psi? NOPE.

you are talking about super psionics available to about a dozen characters and NPC's in the game, not to mention it takes 200 isp per ton to lift something, so a GB would take 2400 isp, nobody has that, with the possible exceptions of gods, and only does 60 M.d. on average. and I don't see any of your so called save or die powers other than possibly possession. maybe you are thinking of the death word or annihilation spells. and with regards to telemechanics, they are very short ranged with a very short duration, and unavailable to most characters. I'm not saying that psionics aren't good, just not as powerful as you say they are.

Posted: **Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:02 pm**

BIBBI wrote:you are talking about super psionics available to about a dozen characters and NPC's in the game,

Seriously?
Only about a dozen characters and NPCs have any super psionic abilities?
There's only 12-24 Mind Melters, Mystics, or other major psychics in your game of Rifts?
You're actually going to hold that up as an argument?

not to mention it takes 200 isp per ton to lift something, so a GB would take 2400 isp, nobody has that, with the possible exceptions of gods, and only does 60 M.d. on average.

A GB weighs about 2400 lbs, and Super Telekinesis can lift 100 lbs per 10 ISP.
By my math, that comes out to 240 ISP.
The minor Telekinesis can lift 20 lbs for 8 ISP, with every 10 lbs after that costing 1 ISP.
By my math, that comes out to 246 ISP, which isn't much higher than for Super TK.

An average Mind Melter has 115 ISP base at first level, +10 for each additional level, so using completely average rolls, it would take a 12th level Mind Melter with average ISP to chuck a Glitter Boy at somebody.
But it would be doable.
And not every Mind Melter has average rolls for his attributes and ISP.
And there are certain objects (like the PFRPF Idradine Circlet) that provide additional ISP. Up to 100, IIRC, for the circlet, meaning that the hypothetical Average Mind Melter would only need to be level 3 to chuck that GB at somebody.
You're right about the average damage of 60 MD, but I never really claimed that this would be a devastating attack, simply impressive. Keep in mind that the damage would logically apply to both the GB and the target, though, so that's 120 MD average assuming that neither target successfully rolls with impact. If one does, then it's 90 MD, and if both do then it's back down to 60 MD.
And if the target you're hurling the Glitterboy at is in the water, at the bottom of a cliff, or on the outside of an aircraft or spacecraft that the GB is currently standing on, then the damage would only be part of the significance of the attack.

and I don't see any of your so called save or die powers other than possibly possession.

Induce Sleep- there's a bonus to save for unwilling victims, but this minor psionic power can take somebody down if they make a bad roll to save. Use it on anybody driving a high-speed vehicle, especially a flying vehicle, and it can kill them without you having to lift so much as a finger. Use it on somebody in combat to drop them, then walk over and shoot them a few times point blank, or stick a fusion block on their head, and it's generally Game Over for them there as well, and this one power was the deciding factor.
Bio-Manipulation- Paralysis will render you completely helpless for 4-16 minutes, more than enough time for somebody to walk over, remove your helmet, and slit your throat. Or shoot you, or slip a grenade down your pants, or whatever else they want to do to you while you're completely helpless.
(although, if they're psychic, they won't necessarily be completely helpless because they can still think... but mages are just screwed)
That's the main one, though there are situations in which being rendered Blind (say while piloting at high speeds or walking a tightrope or whatever), Deaf (say while defusing a bomb or some other dangerous task while being guided by somebody else telling you what to do), or Mute ("don't shoot, it's me!") can kill somebody in certain situations.
Also, Pain can actually drop somebody through sheer physical damage, if you're lucky and they're unlucky. The damage is only 1 HP per minute, but the effect lasts for up to 16 minutes. An average person only has about 14 HP, so this is something that could kill them right through MDC armor, leaving the armor intact. Yes, it can take a while, but you don't have to be there the whole time. You can zap them, then leave until the effects are up. Repeat if necessary. They can try to stop you, but at -6 to strike, parry, and dodge, it's not likely they'll succeed. Especially if you want to toss in other powers, like Paralysis, Psionic Invisibility, or other stuff that will keep them from fighting back.
Electrokinesis: Manipulate Electrical Devices- It's amazing how much damage you can do simply by turning off somebody's jet-pack at the right time, or by firing their Rail Gun for them. Granted, this isn't exactly a "Save or Die" power, because there is no savings throw.
Empathic Transmission- Despair/Sorrow: fail the save, and there's a 50% chance of instant surrender or retreat. Fear: 66% chance of turning and running. Love/Peace: 60% chance of deciding not to fight any more. Trust: "Surrender now, or I'll have to kill you, and believe me when I say that I can."
Hypnotic Suggestion- "Relax, have a drink before you kill me. No, it's not drain cleaner; it's your favorite wine."
"Don't worry about defusing that bomb; you have plenty of time. The clock is showing minutes, not seconds."
And so on.
Mentally Possess Other- 'Nuff said.
Psychosomatic Disease- Stroke. Heart attack. Brain Tumor. Spinal dysfunction. Ebola. Motor Neuron Disease.
Need I go on?
Telemechanic Mental Operation- Crash somebody's vehicle for them. Use the ejection seat for them. Or the Self-Destruct. Control their power armor and play "Stop hitting yourself," or the classic "Stop shooting yourself."
[bTelemechanic Paralysis-[/b] Stops simple robots instantly, or people in power armor, or powered exoskeletons.
Telemechanic Possession- As above, only more so.

maybe you are thinking of the death word or annihilation spells.

Nope.
Deathword is a Save or Die power, but Annihilation only inflicts damage.
I never said that magic didn't have any Save or Die powers, just that Psionics had quite a few of them.

and with regards to telemechanics, they are very short ranged with a very short duration,

You don't generally NEED much range with them.

and unavailable to most characters.

Uh... as opposed to Spells of Legend?

I'm not saying that psionics aren't good, just not as powerful as you say they are.

They're exactly as power as I say they are, because everything I've said is true.
Which may not be everything you think I said, but that's not my fault.

Posted: **Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:33 pm**

Greetings and Salutations. I've been reading this thread so far, but after seeing the last post I do have a few questions and comments. I did cut up the post, but not to change meaning. I'm merely focusing on the parts I was going to address (I really only wanted to make 1 or 2 comments, but since I'm here I might as well make a full post). If by any chance you feel I've changed the tone of the post by my editing, I apologize as it is unintentional.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Induce Sleep- there's a bonus to save for unwilling victims, but this minor psionic power can take somebody down if they make a bad roll to save. Use it on anybody driving a high-speed vehicle, especially a flying vehicle, and it can kill them without you having to lift so much as a finger. Use it on somebody in combat to drop them, then walk over and shoot them a few times point blank, or stick a fusion block on their head, and it's generally Game Over for them there as well, and this one power was the deciding factor.

This one requires a 2 minute trance before you can use it. After a 2 minute trance you're not likely to still be within range. The bonus to unwilling victims also makes this all the more difficult. If you're in a combat with a villain who is staying in range but ignoring you for 2 minutes, then you probably have much better options than the long shot.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Empathic Transmission- Despair/Sorrow: fail the save, and there's a 50% chance of instant surrender or retreat. Fear: 66% chance of turning and running. Love/Peace: 60% chance of deciding not to fight any more. Trust: "Surrender now, or I'll have to kill you, and believe me when I say that I can."

Powerful, but not really a save or die. Running away doesn't mean you die. Fear gives you penalties and a good chance to run, but far from dead. Love/Peacefulness is again not likely to fight, but you're not prey either. Trust and Despair/Sorrow may happen ... if they surrender (neither are a guaranteed response, and Trust provides additional bonuses if you do something against their nature), drop their weapons, and leave themselves totally open (either shackled, or turn their backs) when you decide to attack, but it's much more difficult to pull off and just as likely if not more (even if they fail) things won't make them dead (unless you count penalties as dead).

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hypnotic Suggestion- "Relax, have a drink before you kill me. No, it's not drain cleaner; it's your favorite wine."
"Don't worry about defusing that bomb; you have plenty of time. The clock is showing minutes, not seconds."
And so on.

Huh ... I had always thought there was a line in there against suicidal suggestions or things too strong against their nature. I looked, and I was wrong. Learn something new every day.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Mentally Possess Other- 'Nuff said.

What made that really scary is that before R:UE came out I can't find any lists for a Saving Throw (but there is a Saving Throw as of R:UE).

Killer Cyborg wrote:Psychosomatic Disease- Stroke. Heart attack. Brain Tumor. Spinal dysfunction. Ebola. Motor Neuron Disease.
Need I go on?

Wow! I never even heard of that power before (I mainly play PF). I looked it up. Interesting. Death is possible, though from the description really only from reaction to it (I don't think the belief can kill you in itself). Things like sweating (from a fever) and not drinking enough fluids so you die from dehyrdation, you think you're having a heart attack and fall down some stairs breaking your neck, or something like that (or maybe fear of a heart attack causing a real heart attack). Also, I dont' think a heart attack of spinal dysfunction are "diseases."

Killer Cyborg wrote:I never said that magic didn't have any Save or Die powers, just that Psionics had quite a few of them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I'm not saying that psionics aren't good, just not as powerful as you say they are.

They're exactly as power as I say they are, because everything I've said is true.
Which may not be everything you think I said, but that's not my fault.

Okay, I put these two together. This posters response started (at the top of the thread) about how he felt psionics weren't "overpowered" and "broken" to which you originally responded. I'm not really here to argue (or trap you), I'm just curious if these responses here indicate that you also think that magic is "overpowered" and "broken"? I'm just seeking clarity. I honestly don't have any personal stake or concern on your stance. If you feel they are I'm fine with that (I won't try to convince you otherwise), and if you say that you don't (that's fine too). I'm just curious to your personal opinion on the matter.

All the other powers I've read and agree with their overall application. There is no need to repost those for me, and I agree psionics do have some "save or die" powers (as does magic). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:15 am**

Prysus wrote:If by any chance you feel I've changed the tone of the post by my editing, I apologize as it is unintentional.

No worries.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Induce Sleep- there's a bonus to save for unwilling victims, but this minor psionic power can take somebody down if they make a bad roll to save. Use it on anybody driving a high-speed vehicle, especially a flying vehicle, and it can kill them without you having to lift so much as a finger. Use it on somebody in combat to drop them, then walk over and shoot them a few times point blank, or stick a fusion block on their head, and it's generally Game Over for them there as well, and this one power was the deciding factor.

This one requires a 2 minute trance before you can use it. After a 2 minute trance you're not likely to still be within range. The bonus to unwilling victims also makes this all the more difficult. If you're in a combat with a villain who is staying in range but ignoring you for 2 minutes, then you probably have much better options than the long shot.

Yes, it takes 2 minutes prep time, and yes, it's not an easy one to get to work due to the penalties.
The prep time doesn't make it useless; it just means that you have to be careful about how and when you try to use this one offensively. The best way is to use the 2 minutes before combat even starts.
Yes, that's not always possible, but there are plenty of times and situations where it IS.
And, as I point out, this is just a Minor psychic power.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Empathic Transmission- Despair/Sorrow: fail the save, and there's a 50% chance of instant surrender or retreat. Fear: 66% chance of turning and running. Love/Peace: 60% chance of deciding not to fight any more. Trust: "Surrender now, or I'll have to kill you, and believe me when I say that I can."

Powerful, but not really a save or die. Running away doesn't mean you die.

Quite true, but I did define the term as I was using it:
Other powers are essentially "save or die" powers that let you take somebody out of the picture with one attack if they roll poorly.

If they're gone from combat, they are effectively "dead" for the purposes of that battle.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that point.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hypnotic Suggestion- "Relax, have a drink before you kill me. No, it's not drain cleaner; it's your favorite wine."
"Don't worry about defusing that bomb; you have plenty of time. The clock is showing minutes, not seconds."
And so on.

Huh ... I had always thought there was a line in there against suicidal suggestions or things too strong against their nature. I looked, and I was wrong. Learn something new every day.

The impression I get is that it's not powerful enough to just tell somebody, "Slit your own throat," because that's so directly against their nature (unless they're suicidal anyway), but you can use the power to fool somebody into killing themselves or dying through false information. If they think the drain cleaner in that case is wine, they're not performing anything suicidal as far as they know.
But yes, unlike many other spells and powers, there's no direct penalty for or ban against directing somebody to harm themselves.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Psychosomatic Disease- Stroke. Heart attack. Brain Tumor. Spinal dysfunction. Ebola. Motor Neuron Disease.
Need I go on?

Wow! I never even heard of that power before (I mainly play PF). I looked it up. Interesting. Death is possible, though from the description really only from reaction to it (I don't think the belief can kill you in itself). Things like sweating (from a fever) and not drinking enough fluids so you die from dehyrdation, you think you're having a heart attack and fall down some stairs breaking your neck, or something like that (or maybe fear of a heart attack causing a real heart attack). Also, I dont' think a heart attack of spinal dysfunction are "diseases."

According to the dictionary, a "disease" is "an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning," so it really covers an extremely large range.
I fundamentally agree with you about "heart attack," because it's more of an event caused by a disease than an actual disease itself. I just didn't bother to research whatever medical conditions would bring about an immediate heart attack.
Spinal dysfunction would really be a large category, ranging from minor dis-alignment to sever problems.
Again, I didn't feel like looking up specifics.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I never said that magic didn't have any Save or Die powers, just that Psionics had quite a few of them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I'm not saying that psionics aren't good, just not as powerful as you say they are.

They're exactly as power as I say they are, because everything I've said is true.
Which may not be everything you think I said, but that's not my fault.

Okay, I put these two together. This posters response started (at the top of the thread) about how he felt psionics weren't "overpowered" and "broken" to which you originally responded.

Looking back, the person I was responding to here is not the person I responded to originally.
Johnathan responded with incredulity to Goliath's claim that psionics were broken and overpowered.
I pointed out that psionics are really quite powerful (though I did not actually endorse Goliath's claims).
Goliath agreed and said a bit more, then BIBBI came into the mix, seemingly addressing my input more than Goliath's.

I'm not really here to argue (or trap you), I'm just curious if these responses here indicate that you also think that magic is "overpowered" and "broken"? I'm just seeking clarity.

Some magic is, and some isn't.
Overall, my issues with magic are more about the change in tone over time than any real power imbalances.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:42 am**

And to add to KC's points about some of those abilities...

You also have to remember how often you can throw them. Most of the "save or die" spells of wizardry are high enough that you're throwing 2 per round (MAYBE more, but doubtful), vs the psi abilities that you're popping out for every H2H attack you have.

Now, that means, even with NO HtH, a level 1 char is throwing 3 per round. With HtH basic, 4 per round. Twice as fast as a mage with HtH basic. That's if the mage even HAS save or die spells that early (extremely doubtful).

If the psi is being smart, the best way to take out a psychic char is with a missle that's remotely launched. And cloaked, so they don't know it's coming (although 6th sense could give them a bit of a chance).

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:47 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes, it takes 2 minutes prep time, and yes, it's not an easy one to get to work due to the penalties.
The prep time doesn't make it useless; it just means that you have to be careful about how and when you try to use this one offensively. The best way is to use the 2 minutes before combat even starts.
Yes, that's not always possible, but there are plenty of times and situations where it IS.

Greetings and Salutations. Hmm ... that does raise an interesting question. After you complete the trance, how long do you have before you have to use the ability or repeat the trance? A few moments? Until you use another power? Indefinitely, until you finally use it? I know the books don't really state (to the best of my knowledge) and I've always gone with a relatively small window, but I am curious to other opinions. Though, to avoid derailing the topic, if I have further questions on this I will start another thread.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Quite true, but I did define the term as I was using it:
Other powers are essentially "save or die" powers that let you take somebody out of the picture with one attack if they roll poorly.

If they're gone from combat, they are effectively "dead" for the purposes of that battle.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that point.

Ah, fair enough. If that's the definition, then agreed on your points. I was thinking clinically dead, but I do admit I had skimmed parts of the thread (I read most of it, but a few parts I figured I knew what was being said and skipped it because I read kind of slow and it takes me forever to read).

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to the dictionary, a "disease" is "an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning," so it really covers an extremely large range.
[snip]
Again, I didn't feel like looking up specifics.

Fair enough. I don't think that's what Palladium meant (I think they mean in the sense of a virus type disease). But I'll admit that is only my "interpretation." Though, with the power as written, you could really name any disease you want (or make one up) and list whatever desired symptoms you want. Unless the character is a medic (or knows that specific disease for one reason or another), he's not likely to realize it. Suggest the victim has Boneitis (points if you get the reference) and throw in "heart attack" as one of the symptoms and you're good to go. Though I stand by I don't think the the power can cause the heart attack (unless the character really freaks out). While it would take them out of combat (in the "dead from combat" sense), I think the only way it causes physical harm or death is if the victim causes it himself.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Looking back, the person I was responding to here is not the person I responded to originally.

I didn't notice either until you pointed it out. :lol:

And okay, thank you for your time and responses. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:54 am**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:And to add to KC's points about some of those abilities...

You also have to remember how often you can throw them. Most of the "save or die" spells of wizardry are high enough that you're throwing 2 per round (MAYBE more, but doubtful), vs the psi abilities that you're popping out for every H2H attack you have.

Now, that means, even with NO HtH, a level 1 char is throwing 3 per round. With HtH basic, 4 per round. Twice as fast as a mage with HtH basic. That's if the mage even HAS save or die spells that early (extremely doubtful).

If the psi is being smart, the best way to take out a psychic char is with a missle that's remotely launched. And cloaked, so they don't know it's coming (although 6th sense could give them a bit of a chance).

Greetings and Salutations. Off the top of my head for a mage ... Cloud of Slumber, Carpet of Adhesion (in a setting like Fantasy this really can be a "die" type power because even if you save you're still stuck and you're not as likely to have ranged tech), Magic Net (can't defend or attack), and Domination. These are all level 5 or lower and can be cast for 10 PPE or less. As of R:UE those spells cost a single action, just as fast as a psychic. This rule is also reprinted in Mysteries of Magic as an optional rule (though in R:UE it's the canon rule). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:37 am**

Prysus wrote: Hmm ... that does raise an interesting question. After you complete the trance, how long do you have before you have to use the ability or repeat the trance? A few moments? Until you use another power? Indefinitely, until you finally use it? I know the books don't really state (to the best of my knowledge) and I've always gone with a relatively small window, but I am curious to other opinions. Though, to avoid derailing the topic, if I have further questions on this I will start another thread.

In this case, since it's preparatory meditation, I'd say that you'd have to use it as soon as you're done meditating, but that you could meditate as long as you want as long as you're not interrupted.

Killer Cyborg wrote:According to the dictionary, a "disease" is "an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning," so it really covers an extremely large range.
[snip]
Again, I didn't feel like looking up specifics.

Fair enough. I don't think that's what Palladium meant (I think they mean in the sense of a virus type disease). But I'll admit that is only my "interpretation." Though, with the power as written, you could really name any disease you want (or make one up) and list whatever desired symptoms you want. Unless the character is a medic (or knows that specific disease for one reason or another), he's not likely to realize it. Suggest the victim has Boneitis (points if you get the reference) and throw in "heart attack" as one of the symptoms and you're good to go. Though I stand by I don't think the the power can cause the heart attack (unless the character really freaks out). While it would take them out of combat (in the "dead from combat" sense), I think the only way it causes physical harm or death is if the victim causes it himself.

Points for the Futurama reference. :ok:

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:11 pm**

Prysus wrote:
Goliath Strongarm wrote:And to add to KC's points about some of those abilities...

You also have to remember how often you can throw them. Most of the "save or die" spells of wizardry are high enough that you're throwing 2 per round (MAYBE more, but doubtful), vs the psi abilities that you're popping out for every H2H attack you have.

Now, that means, even with NO HtH, a level 1 char is throwing 3 per round. With HtH basic, 4 per round. Twice as fast as a mage with HtH basic. That's if the mage even HAS save or die spells that early (extremely doubtful).

If the psi is being smart, the best way to take out a psychic char is with a missle that's remotely launched. And cloaked, so they don't know it's coming (although 6th sense could give them a bit of a chance).

Greetings and Salutations. Off the top of my head for a mage ... Cloud of Slumber, Carpet of Adhesion (in a setting like Fantasy this really can be a "die" type power because even if you save you're still stuck and you're not as likely to have ranged tech), Magic Net (can't defend or attack), and Domination. These are all level 5 or lower and can be cast for 10 PPE or less. As of R:UE those spells cost a single action, just as fast as a psychic. This rule is also reprinted in Mysteries of Magic as an optional rule (though in R:UE it's the canon rule). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Since I was comparing level 1 characters, and a level 1 wiz starts with nothing higher than a level 4 (and only one of those)..
We have CoA, Blind, OR magic net. Choose one.

Now, take that oh-so-high save of 12. Compare it to the 15 that's needed for psychic abilities (non-psychics saving throw).

Now, grabbing up a mind mage, let's see what abilities they might have at level 1...
Bion-Manipulation, catatonic strike, mind bolt, TK, TK super, pyrokinesis... and plenty more. Oh, and not just ONE of them, but several. Three per category. So, randomly, I'll take Bio-manip, mind bolt, catatonic strike, TK, teleport object...need I continue?

Yes, I feel that psionics are broken. ESPECIALLY in a fantasy campaign. I've seen what damage a group of 5 mind mages can do compared to a "normal" adventuring party. From level 1 through level 10. And then they went head to head (after the MM group took a break for a few games, waiting for the others to catch up). It was a SLAUGHTER. And it was the same GM for both groups, and he was a highly experienced GM.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:11 pm**

At least they got rid of Alter Alignment.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:53 pm**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:Since I was comparing level 1 characters, and a level 1 wiz starts with nothing higher than a level 4 (and only one of those)..
We have CoA, Blind, OR magic net. Choose one.

Now, take that oh-so-high save of 12. Compare it to the 15 that's needed for psychic abilities (non-psychics saving throw).

Greetings and Salutations. First, I'll admit for some odd reason (that I may never understand) Fantasy got the more powerful psychic class (Mind Mage) compared to Rifts (Mind Melter, which is actually WEAKER than the Mind Mage). How Rifts got the weaker version and Fantasy got the pumped up version I don't think I'll ever understand. Similarly in Rifts the Ley Line Wizard (main spell caster for Rifts) gets more spells than a Wizard (main spell caster for Fantasy), so the gap is among the absolute worst in Fantasy (from what I've noticed). That aside ... you're still selling the mages short.

First, Cloud of Slumber is a starting spell for ALL wizards (this is part of basic training, you get it automatic!). This is an area affect spell as well. This covers a 20x20x20 area. Everyone in it, and everyone who passes through it later, must make that save. Things like this could easily take out the entire enemy group (even 5 mind mages) all in one shot. Once asleep, you're defenseless.

Carpet of Adhesion covers 10x20 and whether you save or not you'll still be stuck.

Magic Net covers 10 feet and can capture up to 6 people at once, requires a 16 to dodge (higher than even the psychic saving throw). If you're caught, you're useless (by the rules) because you can't attack or defend. With a Wizard only selecting one level 4 spell (Ley Line Wizards could easily take both), I'll admit I'd take this one. Hard to dodge (even if they do they wasted a move to dodge), cheap, can capture multiple people, and once they do they can't even fight back or dodge (which puts it over the CoA ability in my opinion).

Fear (level 2, so no problems taking this one too) has a HF of 16 (again higher than the psychic), and freezes any opponents who fail in their tracks.

Heck, if a wizard is that worried about Mind Mages, Cloud of Smoke (30 foot area) will pretty much negate every psychic as they won't be able to see their targets. No saving throw at all. Invisibility: Simple is another option (since they can fight while invisible, there's no saving throw, and without seeing a target a psychic can't do much) but some psychics may have See the Invisible.

All those can be known by a first level Wizard, and with the exception of Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net, ALL can be known at the same time. This is me not even being creative. With the psionics, with the exception of Bio-Manipulation, the others get very costly very fast. They're also all single targets only. Spell casters have lots of spells that'll target areas and can take out groups, and for cheaper.

Then factor in that mages will have a higher spell strength (Wizards will have 17 by the end) than psychics down the line, can learn spells at any level (so that level 1 wizard can technically learn a level 15 spell or even a spell of legend).

I agree psioncs are powerful, but I just don't see the "broken" part. Now, with that said, I will say that I think the "Mind Mage" might be broken. If they had switched the Mind Melter and Mind Mage (putting Mind Melter into PF and Mind Mage into Rifts) it probably would have been better. Mind Mage gets more psionics per level (dramatically more), more ISP per level, and recovers ISP faster (I can't find the Mind Melter's recovery rate, but I do believe this is true). I don't think any psychic in Rifts (the more powerful setting) has the power level of a Mind Mage.

Anyways, just my opinion. I wanted to point out the advantages magic, especially now that level 1-5 spells cost a single action. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:22 pm**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Prysus wrote:
Goliath Strongarm wrote:And to add to KC's points about some of those abilities...

You also have to remember how often you can throw them. Most of the "save or die" spells of wizardry are high enough that you're throwing 2 per round (MAYBE more, but doubtful), vs the psi abilities that you're popping out for every H2H attack you have.

Now, that means, even with NO HtH, a level 1 char is throwing 3 per round. With HtH basic, 4 per round. Twice as fast as a mage with HtH basic. That's if the mage even HAS save or die spells that early (extremely doubtful).

If the psi is being smart, the best way to take out a psychic char is with a missle that's remotely launched. And cloaked, so they don't know it's coming (although 6th sense could give them a bit of a chance).

Greetings and Salutations. Off the top of my head for a mage ... Cloud of Slumber, Carpet of Adhesion (in a setting like Fantasy this really can be a "die" type power because even if you save you're still stuck and you're not as likely to have ranged tech), Magic Net (can't defend or attack), and Domination. These are all level 5 or lower and can be cast for 10 PPE or less. As of R:UE those spells cost a single action, just as fast as a psychic. This rule is also reprinted in Mysteries of Magic as an optional rule (though in R:UE it's the canon rule). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Since I was comparing level 1 characters, and a level 1 wiz starts with nothing higher than a level 4 (and only one of those)..
We have CoA, Blind, OR magic net. Choose one.

Now, take that oh-so-high save of 12. Compare it to the 15 that's needed for psychic abilities (non-psychics saving throw).

Now, grabbing up a mind mage, let's see what abilities they might have at level 1...
Bion-Manipulation, catatonic strike, mind bolt, TK, TK super, pyrokinesis... and plenty more. Oh, and not just ONE of them, but several. Three per category. So, randomly, I'll take Bio-manip, mind bolt, catatonic strike, TK, teleport object...need I continue?

Yes, I feel that psionics are broken. ESPECIALLY in a fantasy campaign. I've seen what damage a group of 5 mind mages can do compared to a "normal" adventuring party. From level 1 through level 10. And then they went head to head (after the MM group took a break for a few games, waiting for the others to catch up). It was a SLAUGHTER. And it was the same GM for both groups, and he was a highly experienced GM.

actually it is completely possible for a 1st level Wizard to have up to 13 spells ranging from level 4 to to level 6. Granted it is highly improbable but still possible. I have successfully managed to do so with 2 Wizard characters. (or am I the only player to actually use the enchanted cauldron class feature?)

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:19 pm**

Look, I really don't want to jump into a fight that already has a lot of emotion invested into it. I just want to declare something.

I already submitted an article entitled Psionics of Legend to Wayne. I sent it in a year ago. I declared it at the time on another discussion board. My article has nothing to do with this thread -- it just has the same name.

Before anyone asks, my Psionics of Legend varied in power from minor boosts to significant new powers. The designation ...of Legend meant that these powers had prerequisites. Most significantly, to gain these powers, a psychic had to be taught by a master or otherwise discovered, not simply chosen from a list when reaching a new experience level.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:13 pm**

Prysus wrote: especially now that level 1-5 spells cost a single action. [/justify]

Still haven't seen that as a PF rule. Oh wait, that's because PB doesn't do anything for PF anymore...

Yes, by the end run, a high level mage has more OPTIONS than a MM, but, the MM has quicker actions, with more than enough of them capable of disrupting the mage. If a wiz can't get a spell off, then it doesn't matter what spells he knows, does it?

"Spontaneous combustion" can be thrown wherever the mage is standing. Granted, you can't set him or his clothes on fire, but you CAN set off all the branches and leaves he's standing on (granted, range is only 10 feet, but that's easy enough to overcome). Bio-manipulation: Mute. Or Blind. Can't cast, you're dead.
Advantage: MM

Cloud of Slumber: Forgot I had to dig through the elemental spells, because it never got put into the wizardry spells... (not even in BoM, iirc). Nice range (90'). Save is still wimpy, (somewhere around a 40% success rate, before any bonuses chars have to save). But, I'll give it to the Wiz. Still half a round to cast, by PF rules and easily interrupted, but I'll let that slide. Against a fighter-type char, with a high PE is going to give a better save, much less effective)

CoA- nowhere near a save or die spell. Sure, you're stuck, but still PLENTY of options to engage in combat. Sure, it's ranged combat, but MM has plenty of ranged options. Advantage- neither side

Fear- well, first, a psychic only needs a 9+ to save. So we have a better than 50% save rate. Advantage: MM
ALSO: Empathic Transmission: fear. 66% chance of just turning and running. Advantage: MM

Magic Net: Compare it to bio-manip paralysis. Range: Bio wins (8 times the range!), Save: almost identical- 1 pt advantage to Net, Duration: bio. Winner: MM

I normally play mages of one sort or another. I KNOW the "advantages" that they have. And sad to say, just about every one of them can be countered and outdone by a MM. The same can NOT be said in reverse. Not even close.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:15 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:actually it is completely possible for a 1st level Wizard to have up to 13 spells ranging from level 4 to to level 6. Granted it is highly improbable but still possible. I have successfully managed to do so with 2 Wizard characters. (or am I the only player to actually use the enchanted cauldron class feature?)

Actually, I've used it several times. Just typically not at level 1. By the time I got the ingredients together, I was usually higher. Also, the success ratio at level 1 is low enough that it rarely works at that point.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:48 pm**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:actually it is completely possible for a 1st level Wizard to have up to 13 spells ranging from level 4 to to level 6. Granted it is highly improbable but still possible. I have successfully managed to do so with 2 Wizard characters. (or am I the only player to actually use the enchanted cauldron class feature?)

Actually, I've used it several times. Just typically not at level 1. By the time I got the ingredients together, I was usually higher. Also, the success ratio at level 1 is low enough that it rarely works at that point.

well I did only succeed twice at first level out of 30 characters.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:01 pm**

Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Prysus wrote: especially now that level 1-5 spells cost a single action. [/justify]

Still haven't seen that as a PF rule. Oh wait, that's because PB doesn't do anything for PF anymore...

Yes, by the end run, a high level mage has more OPTIONS than a MM, but, the MM has quicker actions, with more than enough of them capable of disrupting the mage. If a wiz can't get a spell off, then it doesn't matter what spells he knows, does it?

"Spontaneous combustion" can be thrown wherever the mage is standing. Granted, you can't set him or his clothes on fire, but you CAN set off all the branches and leaves he's standing on (granted, range is only 10 feet, but that's easy enough to overcome). Bio-manipulation: Mute. Or Blind. Can't cast, you're dead.
Advantage: MM

Cloud of Slumber: Forgot I had to dig through the elemental spells, because it never got put into the wizardry spells... (not even in BoM, iirc). Nice range (90'). Save is still wimpy, (somewhere around a 40% success rate, before any bonuses chars have to save). But, I'll give it to the Wiz. Still half a round to cast, by PF rules and easily interrupted, but I'll let that slide. Against a fighter-type char, with a high PE is going to give a better save, much less effective)

CoA- nowhere near a save or die spell. Sure, you're stuck, but still PLENTY of options to engage in combat. Sure, it's ranged combat, but MM has plenty of ranged options. Advantage- neither side

Fear- well, first, a psychic only needs a 9+ to save. So we have a better than 50% save rate. Advantage: MM
ALSO: Empathic Transmission: fear. 66% chance of just turning and running. Advantage: MM

Magic Net: Compare it to bio-manip paralysis. Range: Bio wins (8 times the range!), Save: almost identical- 1 pt advantage to Net, Duration: bio. Winner: MM

I normally play mages of one sort or another. I KNOW the "advantages" that they have. And sad to say, just about every one of them can be countered and outdone by a MM. The same can NOT be said in reverse. Not even close.

Mysteries of Magic page 55.

Posted: **Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:30 pm**

Psionics are not broken or overpowered.

Posted: **Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:30 am**

Greetings!

I have a question for those who believe that Psionics/Psychics are so Powerful as to be "broken"; Have you ever played a Mind Melter?

I have played Ley Line Walkers, a NB Sorcerer, and a Dragon Hatchling (Fire), as well as a Burster, and a few Mind Melters.

Here is the sum of my actual gaming experience:
1) Mages recover PPE MUCH, MUCH faster then any Psychic can even HOPE to recover ISP!!! A Line Walker at a Ley Line (Not exactly a RARE occurance) will recover 20 PPE per MELEE!!! That is 80 PPE/ MINUTE!!! This is equal to 4,800 PPE per HOUR!!! O. M. G. This is really HUGE! The best ANY Psychic can hope for is what? 12 ISP per HOUR!!! That is a 400 to 1 ratio!!! 400 to 1!!! The moment combat/exitement/emergency is over, the Casters recover all their used points in less time than the Psychics can even try to recover 12 measly ISP. So that if I were so foolish as to spend enough ISP to "TK a Buick", I would be totally USELESS for the rest of the day! The Mages will cast all day long, and it hardly matters if they spend 240 PPE per Combat, they get it all back in a few MINUTES. It will take a Mind Melter 20 HOURS to recover that mucy ISP. Seriously! I'm just incredulous that anyone thinks that any Psychic has a hope in heck of being the equal of a Mage. I have tried. And tried. And tried. There is no way that a Mage is OK, but a Mind Melter is broken. If I use more than 100 ISP in a fight, I'll not likely survive the next, because I'l be near empty of points!

2) Very few Mind Melters ever get enough ISP to TK an object of 1 Ton Mass. It's really unlikely that any MM under 12th Level is going to have that much ISP. A Mage gets:
A) Base PPE of OCC
B) PE as a Bonus.
C) Plus X per Level.
D) Plus Ley Lines/Nexus Point adds.
E) Plus PPE donated from Party members.
F) Talismans as PPE Batteries.
G) Energy Sphere Spells.
H) TW Items to duplicate Spells that the Mage does not need to know him/herself.

Psychics get:
A) Base ISP of OCC.
B) ME as a bonus.
C) Plus X per Level.
That's it. EVER. If a symbiote that pumps up ISP is available it is normally either unavailable outside Atlantis or the creature itself will turn out to be a problem(Evil or so goody-goody it will not let you do much "Oh dear! You musn't use a Psi-Sword on that skull-helmed man! He's only a normal Human!"). Sigh. I have yet to see anything else that is even remotely a feasable idea. I have seen the Implants for Psychics, and the side effects are hardly worth it, and STILL the Mages will be back at full power while the Psychic is begging to keep resting because he spent 100 ISP, and needs to meditate for about 9-10 HOURS to get it back.

3) Mages (except for Mystics) get unlimited versatility. Psychics are very limited in how many different effects they can EVER have. Picking my Psionic Powers is both an Art and a Science as one must balance need (survival of PC in gameplay) VS want (Neat stuff that will likely come in handy, mostly-sometimes).
Mages just pick a few standard (gotta have) Spells, and after that, go grab whatever they want for effects. They can learn anything (especially Line Walkers/Sorcerers)!

Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I have tried Psychics too many times to believe that (too me balatantly false) notion of "Psychics are Broken".

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike.

Posted: **Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:32 am**

GaredBattlespike wrote:Greetings!

I have a question for those who believe that Psionics/Psychics are so Powerful as to be "broken"; Have you ever played a Mind Melter?

I have played Ley Line Walkers, a NB Sorcerer, and a Dragon Hatchling (Fire), as well as a Burster, and a few Mind Melters.

Here is the sum of my actual gaming experience:
1) Mages recover PPE MUCH, MUCH faster then any Psychic can even HOPE to recover ISP!!! A Line Walker at a Ley Line (Not exactly a RARE occurance) will recover 20 PPE per MELEE!!! That is 80 PPE/ MINUTE!!! This is equal to 4,800 PPE per HOUR!!! O. M. G. This is really HUGE! The best ANY Psychic can hope for is what? 12 ISP per HOUR!!! That is a 400 to 1 ratio!!! 400 to 1!!! The moment combat/exitement/emergency is over, the Casters recover all their used points in less time than the Psychics can even try to recover 12 measly ISP. So that if I were so foolish as to spend enough ISP to "TK a Buick", I would be totally USELESS for the rest of the day! The Mages will cast all day long, and it hardly matters if they spend 240 PPE per Combat, they get it all back in a few MINUTES. It will take a Mind Melter 20 HOURS to recover that mucy ISP. Seriously! I'm just incredulous that anyone thinks that any Psychic has a hope in heck of being the equal of a Mage. I have tried. And tried. And tried. There is no way that a Mage is OK, but a Mind Melter is broken. If I use more than 100 ISP in a fight, I'll not likely survive the next, because I'l be near empty of points!

2) Very few Mind Melters ever get enough ISP to TK an object of 1 Ton Mass. It's really unlikely that any MM under 12th Level is going to have that much ISP. A Mage gets:
A) Base PPE of OCC
B) PE as a Bonus.
C) Plus X per Level.
D) Plus Ley Lines/Nexus Point adds.
E) Plus PPE donated from Party members.
F) Talismans as PPE Batteries.
G) Energy Sphere Spells.
H) TW Items to duplicate Spells that the Mage does not need to know him/herself.

Psychics get:
A) Base ISP of OCC.
B) ME as a bonus.
C) Plus X per Level.
That's it. EVER. If a symbiote that pumps up ISP is available it is normally either unavailable outside Atlantis or the creature itself will turn out to be a problem(Evil or so goody-goody it will not let you do much "Oh dear! You musn't use a Psi-Sword on that skull-helmed man! He's only a normal Human!"). Sigh. I have yet to see anything else that is even remotely a feasable idea. I have seen the Implants for Psychics, and the side effects are hardly worth it, and STILL the Mages will be back at full power while the Psychic is begging to keep resting because he spent 100 ISP, and needs to meditate for about 9-10 HOURS to get it back.

3) Mages (except for Mystics) get unlimited versatility. Psychics are very limited in how many different effects they can EVER have. Picking my Psionic Powers is both an Art and a Science as one must balance need (survival of PC in gameplay) VS want (Neat stuff that will likely come in handy, mostly-sometimes).
Mages just pick a few standard (gotta have) Spells, and after that, go grab whatever they want for effects. They can learn anything (especially Line Walkers/Sorcerers)!

Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I have tried Psychics too many times to believe that (too me balatantly false) notion of "Psychics are Broken".

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike.

Low ISP, slow recovery, poor versatility...
that doesn't sound broken to you? :-D

Posted: **Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:02 am**

Greetings!

:lol:

Good one! I admit that I was only thinking of the term "broken" in the "Too-Powerful" sense!

It seems a tragic shame that Psychics are so hated/feared by many, yet truely are not as "brokenly-powerful" as your average Juicer, with her Auto-Dodge.

I see now that you are right, Killer Cyborg! If only I had seen it your way sooner...

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

Posted: **Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:57 am**

GaredBattlespike wrote:Greetings!

Good one! I admit that I was only thinking of the term "broken" in the "Too-Powerful" sense!

It seems a tragic shame that Psychics are so hated/feared by many, yet truely are not as "brokenly-powerful" as your average Juicer, with her Auto-Dodge.

I see now that you are right, Killer Cyborg! If only I had seen it your way sooner...

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

Actually, I think they're a bit broken in both ways; over-powered in some, and underpowered in others.
Same as mages, really, although they're slowly fixing the damage they did to mages.

As for autododge, it's matched by simultaneous attack. Never really had a big problem with Juicers.

Really, I think the most broken classes are stuff like the Battle Mage (a mage that out-fights the fighting classes), and a lot of the New West OCCs (Because somebody dedicating their life to gunfighting is 10x better if they happen to live west of the Mississippi? Please.)

Posted: **Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:23 pm**

Greetings!

Killer Cyborg, and others... How do we go about fixing what is "broken" about the psychic, and making Psionics a viable choice again?

In the early days of Rifts, a Mind Melter real WAS FEARED by whole adventuring parties! Now it's just a matter of a few "hit-and-run" attacks that make the Psychic use up ISP, then kill him when he get's low on points, because there is NO way he's gonna get anything back in less than an hour. Ho hum...

What about more ISP recovered as the Psychic goes up in level? Perhaps a 12 ISP + 1 per level Base, and have a few Powers that can help: Advanced Meditation (Sensitive Power) that adds another + 1 per Level to ISP Recovery, and Mega-Meditation (Super) that adds (ME) to the recovery rate?

Another option: Recovery is a straight 10 % per Hour, so a Psychic never needs more than 10 Hours to get back all ISP?

Something else? I am open to ideas here, and want to make Psionic PC's a viable/playable option again! Let's here from YOU!

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

Posted: **Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:37 pm**

OK, as for the "over-powered" broken... I admit, in a RIFTs setting, they are not as uber as I'm used to. I'm a PF player, and in PF, Psi is WAAY overpowered compared to everything else.

As for them being "under-powered" in RIFTs... I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's that the REST of the setting has become broken and overpowered. And each new book just adds to the problem. I read somewhere (can't remember) that the next RIFTs book should be called something like "Unstoppable Enemy Vehicles that you can't hope to defeat but every party will soon have 10" or something like that.

Each RIFTs book ups the power-level exponentially, with little to NO (more often the NO) attention to balance. It's the setting more than the class that's "broken".

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:32 am**

GaredBattlespike wrote:Greetings!

Killer Cyborg, and others... How do we go about fixing what is "broken" about the psychic, and making Psionics a viable choice again?

Goliath has it pegged pretty well- it's the setting more than the powers or OCCs that's broken.
Too much power creep.

But....

The best, easiest fix that would have the least impact on the existing rules of the game and the setting would be to have a new category of skills: Psychic Skills.
Available only to psychics, of course.

People keep wanting more powers and more powerful powers, but since psychics have a limited number of powers they can have, what they actually need is a way to get more out of what they have.
So you can have stuff like:

Advanced Meditation- Special training in slipping into a more effective trance, increasing the ISP recovery by 50%.
Telepathic Probe- This skill allows a telepathic psychic to slip deeper into the target's mind, and to read thoughts that are deeper than just what's on the surface. The psychic can read not just the current conscious thoughts of the target, but also their current subconscious thoughts.
Combat Telepathy- This skill allows a psychic to gain combat bonuses against a foe whose mind he is reading.
Telepathic Scan- This skill allows a psychic to read more than one target's surface thoughts at a time.
Combat Empathy- By reading a foe's emotions during combat, the psychic can gain some warning of offensive or defensive moves, which provides some combat bonuses.
Telekinetic Touch- This skill allows a telekinetic psychic to use his TK powers by feel instead of just sight, and to utilize his sense of touch indirectly through is telekinesis.

That sort of thing.
I've been thinking of writing up a full list of fleshed-out powers, but I haven't yet.
It makes psychics more powerful, but doesn't require them to have additional power, or require the creation of new powers that make the old ones obsolete.
It's somewhat balanced, though, because psychics don't have a lot of skills (usually), so each of these skills they learn will mean one less other skill they have access to. A psychic who puts a lot of skills into enhancing his powers will be a powerful psychic, but that's about all they'll be able to do.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:06 am**

Greetings!

I agree with Killer Cyborg's ideas, regarding skills ECT. Mostly. It still does not address the huge disparity between the Mages per-Melee/Minute PPE recovery VS the Psychics per-Hour ISP recovery.
I have a simple fix. Psychics recover ISP per-Minute at Ley Lines/Nexus Points. The increased Power in the area concentrates the returning ISP to speed the recovery rate.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:41 pm**

GaredBattlespike wrote: Psychics recover ISP per-Minute at Ley Lines/Nexus Points. The increased Power in the area concentrates the returning ISP to speed the recovery rate.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

BtS 1 has rules for psychics drawing ISP from ley lines, or regaining it faster.

(Although one of the skills I mentioned would indeed help them recover ISP faster, and others could be made as well)

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:14 am**

I honestly think it could ALL be fixed in one simple way...

A complete rework of the system. A few people (including some people who USED to be associated with the company) have said it. Several players/GMs have said it.

As the system/setting "grew", the balance and workability of the entire thing went out of whack. Every book became "more power". Rules were "adjusted" (but not clarified). Skills were added, but no mention of how they affected old OCCs. Etc etc etc.

A complete and total rework of the ENTIRE system, from book one through the most recent is what is needed to completely fix it. However, since apparently KS can not see any "flaw" in the not-megaversal system, that isn't likely to happen. Thankfully, some band-aid solutions are available.

KC's "skills" for psionics are an option. Personally, instead of "skills" for it, I'd go with "improved" versions of the powers. The improved versions costing a slot on the power/ability selection list. This removes some of the flexibility by improving one specific area. Think DND and wizard specialization.

Also, you could try giving psionics the same boost from ley lines that mages get is another way to help that difference.

Or, allow that there is something LIKE ley lines, only ISP based instead of PPE based.

I think the whole "ppe/isp" is part of the problem. PPE is "potenial psychic energy". While ISP "inner strength points" is better called "actual psychic energy". So instead of treating them so differently, we should treat them a LOT more alike.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:36 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
GaredBattlespike wrote: Psychics recover ISP per-Minute at Ley Lines/Nexus Points. The increased Power in the area concentrates the returning ISP to speed the recovery rate.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

BtS 1 has rules for psychics drawing ISP from ley lines, or regaining it faster.

(Although one of the skills I mentioned would indeed help them recover ISP faster, and others could be made as well)

R:UE pg 366 also states this. Ley Line PPE can be converted to ISP, and power ranges/damage/etc. inhanced but it its a use it or lose it thing. Can't save it for later.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:48 am**

KC's thought on them working like skills got me thinking.

During the character's advancement, they choose skills at later level, which then are not as high as skills they had originally. Such as at level 3 you gain a skill at level 1 and all your other skills are at level 3.

Maybe would be interesting to do this with psychic powers if they gain extra things at higher levels. So if you took "See Aura" at 1st lvl, you would be better at it, than a psychic wo chose it at 3rd lvl (because when he got to 15th lvl, he would have See Aura at only 13th lvl.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:43 pm**

Lord Z wrote:Look, I really don't want to jump into a fight that already has a lot of emotion invested into it. I just want to declare something.

I already submitted an article entitled Psionics of Legend to Wayne. I sent it in a year ago. I declared it at the time on another discussion board. My article has nothing to do with this thread -- it just has the same name.

Before anyone asks, my Psionics of Legend varied in power from minor boosts to significant new powers. The designation ...of Legend meant that these powers had prerequisites. Most significantly, to gain these powers, a psychic had to be taught by a master or otherwise discovered, not simply chosen from a list when reaching a new experience level.

Hi Lord Z...

Along with someone else's previous comment...I believe that the term "legend" should be replaced with another term. Some super powers (mainly the telemechanics powers) already have prerequisties. Here's maybe a quick example:

"Ascended Abilities"
-Prerequisit (character must be a master level psychic and have the power of astral projection)
-Permenant investment of (2) M.E. points and costs one O.C.C. related skill slot
-Gains new skill Transending 35% plus 5% per level

Psychics gain access to a new level of being within the astral plane. While there the character can gain additional power and awareness in his astral (co-existance) form. Firstly, the character can access all of this sensitive and healing powers and affect those in the normal realm as well as some physical and super abilities!

New Ascended Psionic Powers:
(usable only outside the astral plane and in the regular realm)

*Mass Telekinetic Lift
-Range: 200ft radius per level (centered on psychic)
-Affects all object weighing less than 1000 pounds per level
-5 minutes per level
-living beings get a saving throw at -4

*Pyrokinesis (Ascended)
-Cloud of Fire (100' radius burning fire cloud per level, 3D6+1D6 per level damage, 1 min per level)
-Plasma bolt (1000' plus 200 per level, 1D4x10 per level, 1 minute per level duration)

*Techno shut-down
-renders all technology within a 1000' radius per level inert.

*Accelerate self
-greatly increases physical movement (+150 to spd, +8 strike, parry, dodge, entangle, disarm, throw, escape hold, +4 attacks per melee)

*Psionic Overshield
-creates a personal force field of immense protection (100 M.D.C. per level, +7 vs psi and magical effects, no need to breathe, 1 hour per level duration, complete environmental protection)

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:06 pm**

I've always thought group psionics would be a great area for expansion.
-Thought bomb from Starwars
-TK field from wheel of time (I know it was actually individuals creating "Bricks" to build it but still the idea is there
-Psi-storm from starcraft
-Tk pushing back a whole army (some anime which escapes me)

Two powers i created for my players when they hit level 10 were:
Enlightened swordsman's ship: 100 ISP, activates all physical psionics and psi-sword for 1 melee per level (note that duration supersedes any individual powers duration, also note that this is one power not multiple for things like psi nullifier counters). This lets the neo-human hop right into things without needing to spend long amounts of time with sixth sense powering up. The down side is the higher isp cost and shorter duration. If you use this ever fight you'll be out of ISP before lunch.

TK-Kill: Fills the target with kinetic energy causing joints to pop, ligaments to tear, bones to break etc. 100 ISP. On save, 1d6 per lvl damage and roll on the minor injury table. On fail, 3d6 damage per level, lose 2 attacks and roll on the critical HP injury table.

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