Forums of the Megaverse®

OK, here's the question...

A juicer can leap about 30 ft lengthwise, and 20 ft in the air unassisted. (per the OCC)

Jump boots (jet boots?) allow the juicer to leap 60 ft in the air, and 10-20 ft lengthwise.

If said juicer leaps 20 ft in the air, and at the apex of his jump fires up the jet boots, would that add the extra 60 ft? Sort of like a Megaman double jump?

It's been a while since I took physics, but I think this probably should be possible. I'm considering allowing it, but with the following caveats: 1) Juicer has to make a successful acrobatics or gymnastics skill roll to time the firing of the boots just right, or he loses some height (doesn't get the max) and 2) all the usual penalties for a failed jump apply (lose Initiative and take 2d6 SDC damage). or perhaps use the falling damage rules (1d6 damage per 10 ft).

What does everyone think?

Sounds reasonable to me.

Which part of the acrobatics and gymnastics skill? I wouldn't require that roll but I would use the falling damage.

kmspade wrote:OK, here's the question...

A juicer can leap about 30 ft lengthwise, and 20 ft in the air unassisted. (per the OCC)

Jump boots (jet boots?) allow the juicer to leap 60 ft in the air, and 10-20 ft lengthwise.

If said juicer leaps 20 ft in the air, and at the apex of his jump fires up the jet boots, would that add the extra 60 ft? Sort of like a Megaman double jump?

I'd have to say close, but not quite... because (based on your post), the jump boots add 40feet up, and then subtract 10-20 feet out. So, I'd say that if at the very apex he hits it, then it would add, at most, 40 feet up. And it might actually create a balance on the distances, making it about 15-25 feet.

Just my two cents...

If he jumps 20 feet up, and at the top of the jump hits the jet boots for another 60 feet, that would be 80 feet total. The question is can he do that. Same thing for lengthwise...can he add the distances together?

The jump boots require a roll of 16 or higher to execute the jump properly...but that seems a little tough. I don't know, maybe they're just that uncontrollable, but I thought an acrobatics or gymnastics roll seemed more appropriate.

I would have to say they would have to roll an 18 or higher on a d20 (if the 16 was being rolled on a d20, that is), because they don't have the stability of the ground to push off from. But I would also allow them to add in any bonuses from PP.

As for hight, I would say that it would add only 50' of height, again due to the fact that you are not pushing off from a solid surface. I however have never taken an advanced physics (one semester back in high school), so I honestly don't know. I was initially going to say reduce the height gained by 25%, but the net gain would have only been 5' feet. With 50', at least it makes it a little bit more worth the risk of failing.

Tell everyone I said hi.

dragonfett wrote:As for hight, I would say that it would add only 50' of height, again due to the fact that you are not pushing off from a solid surface.

I thought of that, but then I thought of a jet aircraft flying through the air. It still moves forward even though there isn't a solid wall behind it to push off of. So the height attained by the jet boots should not be affected by their proximity to the ground. I could be wrong in this too, as it has also been a long time since I was in a physics classroom.

Also, only non-juicers have to roll a 16 or higher to execute the jump. Juicers have to pass an acrobatics or gymnastics backflip skill roll.

dragonfett wrote:Tell everyone I said hi.

Will do!

Yes, but jet air craft also have wings and all that other jazz. But like I had previously said, the only physics class that I had taken was a semester back in high school, however I had learned a thing or two about aircraft physics due to the fact that I used to work on aircraft when I was in the military.

dragonfett wrote:I would have to say they would have to roll an 18 or higher on a d20 (if the 16 was being rolled on a d20, that is), because they don't have the stability of the ground to push off from. But I would also allow them to add in any bonuses from PP.

You do know that what you just said makes less sense than how the jet-boots would work in real life, right?

That is, jet boots that can propel you 60 feet into the air would have to have a lifting strength of about 10 times that of your legs, and that your legs would more than likely just accordion into your chest if you were to fire them from a planted position.
It actually makes more sense that you would be successful using them while moving upwards from a jump, because it is easier to keep an object in motion than it is to begin to move an object.

Also, where does this "15%" chance (18-20) come from? It seems like an awfully slim chance to succeed by, more-so than directing a jump that you didn't start.

Honestly, I'd say he should get more distance out of a rocket-boosted jump after a regular jump, if I didn't assume that it was already factored in. Saying that, I'd actually add +10 feet to the combined number for a properly timed rocket-boost, in conjunction with a juicer-powered leap.

Well Dog of War, I have repeatedly say that I have only had one semester of physics in high school/

Dog_O_War wrote:Also, where does this "15%" chance (18-20) come from? It seems like an awfully slim chance to succeed by, more-so than directing a jump that you didn't start.

It's in the description of the jet boots. Juicers must roll a successful backflip to execute the jump, while non-juicers must roll a 16 or better. This is presumable for a jump starting on the ground (which probably wouldn't accordion a juicers legs, a normal human...maybe. But not a juicer). Dragonfett suggested making it 18 or better because it would presumably be more difficult to time the firing of the jet boots precisely with the apex of the jump, and thus achieving maximum distance.

Dog_O_War wrote:That is, jet boots that can propel you 60 feet into the air would have to have a lifting strength of about 10 times that of your legs ....

Where did you get the "10 times" number? To know that you'd have to know the jumper's initial velocity and that's nowhere to be found in the rules.

lather wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:That is, jet boots that can propel you 60 feet into the air would have to have a lifting strength of about 10 times that of your legs ....

Where did you get the "10 times" number? To know that you'd have to know the jumper's initial velocity and that's nowhere to be found in the rules.

From a stand-still, most people can only jump about 6 feet.
10 times that is about 60 feet.

dragonfett wrote:Well Dog of War, I have repeatedly say that I have only had one semester of physics in high school/

It's okay; I wasn't trying to single you out on knowledge or anything. I was only curious about your reasoning behind the numbers.

kmspade wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:Also, where does this "15%" chance (18-20) come from? It seems like an awfully slim chance to succeed by, more-so than directing a jump that you didn't start.

It's in the description of the jet boots. Juicers must roll a successful backflip to execute the jump, while non-juicers must roll a 16 or better. This is presumable for a jump starting on the ground (which probably wouldn't accordion a juicers legs, a normal human...maybe. But not a juicer). Dragonfett suggested making it 18 or better because it would presumably be more difficult to time the firing of the jet boots precisely with the apex of the jump, and thus achieving maximum distance.

Well, I suggest that you consider the following:
The boots were designed with juicers in-mind; why would they stack?

Or rather, is it not easier for the juicer than the normal person to control the jump? That is, I believe juicers get a different mechanic to the jump because or their physique. The two then (juicer's jump and the rocket-boost) should not stack.

The suggestion in my other post was without consideration to how the boots functioned. I take it that these boots are found in Juicer Uprising?

Dog_O_War wrote:

lather wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:That is, jet boots that can propel you 60 feet into the air would have to have a lifting strength of about 10 times that of your legs ....

Where did you get the "10 times" number? To know that you'd have to know the jumper's initial velocity and that's nowhere to be found in the rules.

From a stand-still, most people can only jump about 6 feet.
10 times that is about 60 feet.

Not in the vertical direction they can't (unless you're speaking about a rule in the game somewhere). Nevertheless, power requirements depend upon how rapidly you want you want to get the juicer to be displaced 60 feet.

lather wrote:Not in the vertical direction they can't (unless you're speaking about a rule in the game somewhere). Nevertheless, power requirements depend upon how rapidly you want you want to get the juicer to be displaced 60 feet.

Why are these boots capable of propelling a person 60 feet up, but only 20 feet forward?
I thought that was a typo on kmspades' behalf, and that it was 60 feet across and 20 feet up.

The way they wrote it seems to me that they are implying that is what the user could do with no forward momentum. If said Juicer was running full tilt, then I would say that his horizontal distance would be calculated as such ((15/#ofAttacks) * Spd attribute) + 20 (I had highlighted the formula to make it easy for me to read). Since when you break down your speed stat, that is really how many feet you can move in a second, it makes the math pretty easy.

Dog_O_War wrote:

lather wrote:Not in the vertical direction they can't (unless you're speaking about a rule in the game somewhere). Nevertheless, power requirements depend upon how rapidly you want you want to get the juicer to be displaced 60 feet.

Why are these boots capable of propelling a person 60 feet up, but only 20 feet forward?

They're completely arbitrary numbers. They ignore that the jumper's initial velocity determines the vertical and horizontal components of the jump. In addition, they ignore that the jumper's launch angle plays a fundamental role in determining these things.

45 degrees gives the most horizontal distance while complimentary angles give the same distance as each other (but always come up short of the distance at 45 degrees); however, at 60 degrees the jumper gains more air than at 30 degrees (or 45 degrees). The angle the jumper chooses would depend if the juicer needs to jump over something or if it's purely a matter of distance. The problem is that people can't jump at 45 degrees: the best Olympic long jumpers can get close to 20 degree launches. However, I'd say that the boots would allow the jumper to control the angle of launch.

dragonfett wrote:The way they wrote it seems to me that they are implying that is what the user could do with no forward momentum.

An object's momentum varies with its velocity. The other component of momentum, mass, generally cancels out. A running start gives you more momentum, but physical strength is a critical component in that determination.

dragonfett wrote:((15/#ofAttacks) * Spd attribute) + 20

As you gain attacks you lose range. A vagabond character with just 4 attacks an average Spd attribute number of 10 goes about 60 feet but when he gains an attack he goes 50 feet.

I made that formula as a quick and dirty method of guesstamating how far you could, in theory, fly through the air in one melee attack/action.

The house rules we use in the game I GM are as follows for jumping:

House Rule wrote:Normal, human-type beings:
1 foot of length per 2 PS points
1 foot of height per 4 PS points

Augmented/Robotic Strength:
1 foot of length per PS point
1 foot of height per 2 PS points

Characters with both augmented/extraordinary strength and speed, or with SN strength:
1.5 feet of length per PS point
3 foot of height per 4 PS points

Decrease jumping distance to 40% of the above if character does not take a running start.

Characters that have acrobatics and/or gymnastics skills can add 2 feet per level to the length and .5 feet per level to the height.

The juicer in the game I GM has a PS of 33, and is 4th level. Thus he can jump 55.5 ft across, and 26.25 ft high without any boots at all.

Dog_O_War wrote:The boots were designed with juicers in-mind; why would they stack?

Or rather, is it not easier for the juicer than the normal person to control the jump? That is, I believe juicers get a different mechanic to the jump because or their physique. The two then (juicer's jump and the rocket-boost) should not stack.

If a Juicer can jump 50 ft across and 26 ft high without boots, and the distances don't stack, then what's the point of having them in the first place? For the wannabe's I suppose? OK, then why does it list in the rules different rules for controlling the jump for juicers separate from everyone else? Personally, I am inclined to let the distances stack, I think.

Dog_O_War wrote:Why are these boots capable of propelling a person 60 feet up, but only 20 feet forward?
I thought that was a typo on kmspades' behalf, and that it was 60 feet across and 20 feet up.

Haha! I wish it was, as I agree it makes more sense to jump further across than up. Perhaps those numbers were switched by accident?

If I remember physics correctly, you get the maximum distance across from a jump of 45 degrees, right? Anything less and gravity pulls you down to the ground before you go farther, and anything more, you go higher rather than farther. So all I should have to figure out is what the maximum across distance is, divide than # by 45, and then if you know the angle you can figure the distance. (Yes, I know velocity and mass are also involved here, but this is a game, not a physics classroom, and I want to keep it simple.) The same goes for height...jumping straight up would give the most distance upwards. Again, divide the height by the angle of the jump to get the height of a particular jump.

So for example... a juicer that can leap, let's say 45 ft across and 30 ft high (to keep the math simple), He obtains maximum across distance when jumping at a 45 degree angle. Thus, if he jumps at a 30 degree angle, he'll go 30 ft across. Also, if he jumps at 60 degrees, he'll again go 30 ft. As for the height...a jump straight up would yield no horizontal distance, and max vertical. A 45 degree jump would be the full 45 feet across, and 15 ft high. At 30 degrees, he'd go 30 ft across, and 10 ft high. At 60 degrees, he'd go the same 30 ft across, and 20 ft high.

I'd have the juicer announce his intended distance/angle combination, and roll his acrobatics skill to determine how close he comes to his desired jump.

kmspade wrote:OK, here's the question...

A juicer can leap about 30 ft lengthwise, and 20 ft in the air unassisted. (per the OCC)

Jump boots (jet boots?) allow the juicer to leap 60 ft in the air, and 10-20 ft lengthwise.

If said juicer leaps 20 ft in the air, and at the apex of his jump fires up the jet boots, would that add the extra 60 ft? Sort of like a Megaman double jump?

It's been a while since I took physics, but I think this probably should be possible. I'm considering allowing it, but with the following caveats: 1) Juicer has to make a successful acrobatics or gymnastics skill roll to time the firing of the boots just right, or he loses some height (doesn't get the max) and 2) all the usual penalties for a failed jump apply (lose Initiative and take 2d6 SDC damage). or perhaps use the falling damage rules (1d6 damage per 10 ft).

What does everyone think?

Depends on the jump boots. See R:JU for the only set of rifts jump boots I can think of for the rule/mechanics for the jump.

kmspade wrote:If a Juicer can jump 50 ft across and 26 ft high without boots, and the distances don't stack, then what's the point of having them in the first place? For the wannabe's I suppose? OK, then why does it list in the rules different rules for controlling the jump for juicers separate from everyone else? Personally, I am inclined to let the distances stack, I think.

I endorse your inclination. The rules assigned to the boots are dumb.

I would change it to a straight, "everyone rolls a back-flip check to use them properly" version.
For people who do not have back-flip instead make a PP check roll a d20,needing a 16 or better (you get +1 to your roll for every point over 20, and a -1 to your roll for every point under 20. This means that it is a minimum of an 18 PP to succeed on a 20).

This takes the original rules and makes them work for the boots.

The boots then are looked at as if the 60 feet and 20 feet distances were actually +60 feet and +20 feet to distances, with the acrobatics check acting as the control.


EDIT: the above mechanism for default checks. It's unfair to those with back-flip if a high-PP user wears the boots.