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One of the problems (or not depending on how you see it) with ATB is sometimes you end up with small heroes because you don't have enough Bio-e.

I'd appreciate if those who have played small heroes (or been in groups with those who have) could share how it worked and if they had any unexpected benefits or problems from being small.

Long responses are appreciated!

Atomic Ray wrote:One of the things I liked best about AtB is that very aspect, unlike RIFTs where everyone is a team unto themselves.

I always felt the bio-e left plenty of room to create uniqueness and avoid the carbon copy cookie cutter routine.

*****

Most times the smaller versions of characters really are not all that small, but certainly the mouse/gerbil types were normally hobbit sized

I like them a bit smaller...a bit more fun because of it.

"I may be small, but I compensate for it in other ways!"
***BRAINFRY***

I never had a problem with a house cat, mouse, raccoon or whatever being a smaller creature (3 - 5ft), my problem always came about when I tried to make a bear and he was always 3 to 4 feet! Come on! I want to play a big humanoid bear that towers over others and is strong. I dont want to play a freaking care bear!

MikeM wrote:I dont want to play a freaking care bear!

You never met the Terror Bears. Care Bears meet Freddy Kruger... *cringe*
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2594050926/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2105336134/

Rali wrote:

MikeM wrote:I dont want to play a freaking care bear!

You never met the Terror Bears. Care Bears meet Freddy Kruger... *cringe*
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2594050926/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/2105336134/

I love the terror bears!
Although where is that first picture from? I am only familiar with that second one.

I just think its silly that I can't make a huge bear-man. Although apparently you can in AtB2. I really need to pull that off the shelf and read it.

MikeM

MikeM wrote:I love the terror bears!
Although where is that first picture from? I am only familiar with that second one.

That was from the adventure published in TMNT Adventures.

There was a note at the end that this adventure could be used as a lead in for the original After the Bomb setting.

Yeah, in first edition I often had the same problems, with almost every character ending up between size levels 5-7 because I was hungry for animal powers. Okay for those animals that start out small, but it can be disappointing when you're forced to shrink your huge animals down so much.

But with the addition of vestigial disadvantages to ATB, I don't find this too much of a problem anymore.

I had a size level one mutant bat once. I basically ended up being the scout/spy all the time. IQ was a bit poor though at that level. Got careless and that mutant cow with the sunglasses (name?) swatted me to oblivion.

Atomic Ray wrote:If your only issue was the size, I as the GM would be more than happy to grant your size request...but then the issue of all the bonuses that come with being a huge character...would you still be interested in the larger size without all the extra pluses to stats?

I was recently putting together a rhino - I couldn't make it work at size level 1 with 15 extra bio-e from feral, and taking disadvantages...so yes I'd take you up on that offer. I think I needed about an extra 50-100 bio-e to make it work. Its interesting that a game system setup for making mutant animals doesn't let you be a full everything looks nothing with all the animal attributes at size level 10. Instead I end up with mighty rhino mouse, who doesn't have full hands, speech, etc.

I wonder how much fun it really is to have to trade off one thing for another, when we could just have the system setup differently. For example...if you are too large or small you decrease your IQ but increase something else (sdc for large and negatives for people to hit you when you are small). The difference between bipeds could be that your run speed is 50% faster at partial and twice as fast as a quadruped. As long as all the choices are balanced, then you could take what sounded like the most fun to you...without having to worry about not being able to purchase enough animal abilities to make you anything different than an oddly colored human.

Much as I like AtB and TMNT I never cared for the Bio-E building requirements, building an 'average' anthro as you'd see in comics and stories isn't often doable other than with rodents and sometimes not even then. You're out 30 Bio-E just for the basic human attributes (Full Hands, Biped, and Speech), being generally human-sized requires around at least Size level 6 if not 8 which eats quite a bit more and you don't even cover the possible features like claws or enhanced senses.

I also still scratch my head over Trandimensional TMNT and requiring a mutant animal to pay out 40 Bio-E to be a wizard, might as well just say 'no mutant mages' with that kind of expense and it doesn't even make sense charging Bio-E to become a wizard. Thankfully that's not a problem in other books featuring them like HU and AtB.

Mutant animals tend to fair poorly matching up to the average hero or villain in HU2 as well, with limited educational options and the mutant animal powers are inferior to what mutant humans and aliens can get. Worse you see animal-appearing aliens with a range of super-powers and still able to become Hardware experts or other power categories.

Nightmask wrote:I also still scratch my head over Trandimensional TMNT and requiring a mutant animal to pay out 40 Bio-E to be a wizard, might as well just say 'no mutant mages' with that kind of expense and it doesn't even make sense charging Bio-E to become a wizard. Thankfully that's not a problem in other books featuring them like HU and AtB.

actually, given that to get 40 bio-E you'd just have to make a quick juant into the future, not so hard in TDTMNT. the real trick would be to find a wizard to teach you to use that new talent..

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I also still scratch my head over Trandimensional TMNT and requiring a mutant animal to pay out 40 Bio-E to be a wizard, might as well just say 'no mutant mages' with that kind of expense and it doesn't even make sense charging Bio-E to become a wizard. Thankfully that's not a problem in other books featuring them like HU and AtB.

actually, given that to get 40 bio-E you'd just have to make a quick juant into the future, not so hard in TDTMNT. the real trick would be to find a wizard to teach you to use that new talent..

I've never seen anything in Transdimensional TMNT where you could ever get Bio-E especially at those levels from a little time travel. You have to jump forward tens of millions of years to acquire any appreciable temporal energy and must be an immature organism to acquire large doses of Bio-E from it. Adult organisms being more locked in only have a chance at a modest amount of Bio-E.

Plus again there's nothing about Bio-E that makes sense that you would have to spend it on acquiring a learned skill like magic, there is no blanket 'Magical Spell Potential' animal power one buys, especially when you can look at the AtB book and see that they're in fact considered more compatible with the idea of learning and working magic, complete with a PPE bonus, than humans are.

The Last Darkness wrote:I would not allow Wizards in After the Bomb, even if you spent 40 BIO-E.
This isnt OZ Dorothy.
(Druids are just a joke as well)

Same goes with super powers.
ATB works best as a low power campaign, Not Rifts: Furry Edition.

I was pointing out that it includes optional material regarding mutant animals and becoming mages, material that doesn't anywhere state or imply a mutant animal would have to burn Bio-E to become a mage and can become one via training or calling for classes like the Mystic and nothing about bringing mages into AtB specifically.

I was recently putting together a rhino - I couldn't make it work at size level 1 with 15 extra bio-e from feral, and taking disadvantages...so yes I'd take you up on that offer. I think I needed about an extra 50-100 bio-e to make it work. Its interesting that a game system setup for making mutant animals doesn't let you be a full everything looks nothing with all the animal attributes at size level 10. Instead I end up with mighty rhino mouse, who doesn't have full hands, speech, etc.

I thought I’d put this to the test, so I tried to make a character based on a rhino. As there is not rhino in the book, I picked a similar type of animal (I chose the buffalo). As I was creating the character, I realised that not only could I stay pretty big, but that I had a shot at staying really big using the really big and dumb and/or the big and slow options.

Buffalo SL: 19, Bio-E: 5

Size:
-2 size levels to size level 17 = 10 Bio-E.
Big and slow/dumb, and/or really big and slow/dumb, say 10 Bio-E depending on attribute rolls.

Vestigial traits:
Musk glands = 5 Bio-E
Diet: Ruminant = 5 Bio-E

So, 35 Bio-E to spend:

Human features:
Hands: Full
Biped: Full
Speech: partial
Looks: none
Cost = 25 Bio-E

Natural weapons/Powers:
Horns 2D6 (gotta have horns)
Brute strength (automatic)
Advanced vision (automatic)
Extra Spd. (making up for the Spd. penalty from being that big and from ‘big and slow’)
Cost = 10 Bio-E

So, I haven’t got a huge amount of powers, but I’m still absolutely massive at size level 17! Giving me a total P.S. bonus of 20! And there is another 30 Bio-E’s worth of vestigial disadvantages still available to me should I wish to trade them for more powers or features. Also, I think that a rhino or buffalo character lends itself well to a partial biped character, so there is an option there for further Bio-E. If I rolled high enough for I.Q. and M.E. or P.P. and Spd., I might even be able to get more Bio-E from the really big and slow/dumb option).

For a smaller character, created without using the big and slow/dumb option, I can get the following:

Size level: 12

Human features:
Hands: Full
Biped: Full
Speech: Partial
Looks: none

Natural weapons/Powers:
Horns (2D6)
Hooved feet (3D6)
Advanced vision (automatic)
Beastly strength
Extra Spd.

Vestigial traits:
Musk glands
Diet: Ruminant

Still 6-7 ft tall, with a couple of extra powers. And, as before, another 30 Bio-E’s worth of vestigial disadvantages available for those who want to be bigger or have full speech etc. Who says you have to make characters size level 1?!


Update: I found an updated Rhino template on the boards, and gave that one a go, as that was the example animal given:

Size level: 11

Human features:
Hands: Full
Biped: Full
Speech: Full
Looks: none

Natural weapons/Powers:
Horn (1D10)
Medium natural body armour
Advanced smell

Vestigial traits:
Musk glands
Diet: Ruminant
Colour blindness
Vestigial tail

More difficult, as the short build attached to this animal cuts the height down terribly, but you can still do it at a very reasonable size level, which is what determines attribute bonuses and S.D.C. If I also picked the vestigial trait of reptile brain: charge invented by the poster (which is pretty cool), I could increase my size back up to level 14!

Thank you for putting the time into it to test me Soldier of Od! You came up with an interesting build. I'll PM you.

For those who want it, here is the link mentioned, reproduced at the bottom of this post
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16795&hilit=rhino

In comparison, I was using the extra heavy armor, which took 30 more bio-e than your version (so chop off 6 size levels 11-6=5). For the turtle to get a NAR16 it costs 35 bio-e, compared to 60 for the Rhino. It also costs the Rhino more to buy human attributes and when you are trying to make every bio-e count, the rhino is a worse choice.

My rhino started with heavy armor & full hands/speech/biped. That cost me 100bio-e. Considering you start at SL20 with zero bio-e, I expect you can see why I was dissipointed. When I tried to add in the other animal abilities and flaws; 40 more bio-e for the abilities & 45 from the flaws...I didn't care for what I ended up with (a size level 1 humanoid rhino or SL9 intelligent normal animal).

If you want a normal but intelligent animal you are better off with a small animal than a large animal. Rhino=0bio-e, turtle=85 bioe. Its a lot easier to be a regular turtle, as you get 85bio-e worth of goodies before needing to take disadvantages. The reason is the system charges for size.

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS" - George Orwell, Animal Farm

Soldier of Od wrote:Update: I found an updated Rhino template on the boards, and gave that one a go, as that was the example animal given:

Size level: 11

Human features:
Hands: Full
Biped: Full
Speech: Full
Looks: none

Natural weapons/Powers:
Horn (1D10)
Medium natural body armour
Advanced smell

Vestigial traits:
Musk glands
Diet: Ruminant
Colour blindness
Vestigial tail

More difficult, as the short build attached to this animal cuts the height down terribly, but you can still do it at a very reasonable size level, which is what determines attribute bonuses and S.D.C. If I also picked the vestigial trait of reptile brain: charge invented by the poster (which is pretty cool), I could increase my size back up to level 14!

RHINOCEROS
Original Animal Characteristics
Description: Aggressive grazing animals inhabiting grasslands. They are good rummers and can get up to 35mph. They are also strong enough to overturn a truck. African Black and White Rhinos have two horns while the Asian Great Indian Rhino has just one.
Size Level: 20
Length: 5-6.5 feet tall at shoulder
Weight: 3,000 to 8,000 pounds
Build: Short
Mutant Changes & costs
Total BIO-E: 0
Attribute Bonuses: +2 M.E., +2 M.A., Brute Strength, +12 P.S. +6 Spd.
Human Features
Hands: 10 BIO-E for partial or 15 BIO-E for full.
Biped: 10 BIO-E for partial or 15 BIO-E for full.
Speech: 5 BIO-E for partial or 10 BIO-E for full.
Looks: None, huge head with massive jaws and muzzle, tiny eyes and large ears, long, massive bodies with thick, powerful legs, three toed hands and feet.
10 BIO-E for partial, strong muzzle, tiny eyes, large ears on top of head, massive body with naked, segmented skin, thick arms and legs.
15 BIO-E for full, very large jaw, nose, ears and head; small eyes, bald, powerfully built body with thick arms and legs.
Natural Weapons:
10 BIO-E for 1D10 damage Horn.
20 BIO-E for 2D8 damage Horns.
Mutant Animal Powers:
15 BIO-E for Light Natural Body Armor; A.R. 9, S.D.C. +30
30 BIO-E for Medium Natural Body Armor; A.R. 11, S.D.C. +60
45 BIO-E for Heavy Natural Body Armor; A.R. 14, S.D.C. +90
60 BIO-E for Extra-Heavy Natural Body Armor; A.R. 16, S.D.C. +120
10 BIO-E for Beastly Strength
20 BIO-E for Crushing Strength
10 BIO-E for Extra Speed
5 BIO-E for Advanced Hearing
5 BIO-E for Advanced Smell
Vestigial Disadvantages:
-5 BIO-E for Nearsightedness.
-5 BIO-E for Color Blindness.
-5 BIO-E for Vestigial Tail.
-5 BIO-E for Musk Glands.
-5 BIO-E for Diet: Herbivore(Pick either Herbivore or Ruminant, not both).
-10 BIO-E for Diet: Ruminant.
-10 BIO-E for Vestigial Horns.
-15 BIO-E for Reptile Brain: Charge(Special). When a Rhino fails to save vs insanity it will immediately charge whatever is in front of it, gaining a + 2 to initiative and +2 to strike, but is unable to preform any defensive moves at all. The Rhino will continue making charge attacks until it makes a saving throw vs insanity or every thing is dead.
Note: Don't forget that a Giant Animal can sell I.Q. & M.E. and/or P.P. & Speed attribute points to get BIO-E points with out sacrificing size.See Giant Animals in the creation section of the book under Growth Steps.

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS" - George Orwell, Animal Farm

Good reference!

You know what, I believe I missed the fact that rhinos have to pay extra for full hands and biped. That makes my build even harder; I think i'd drop to partial biped and drop advanced smell. That whole paying extra for hands and biped is poorly executed. I can see the reasoning behind it; for some animals it could have been put into place to penalise larger animals that effectively get a bio-E bonus based on Erick's rules for creating animal templates in the original TMNT: as it would cost 40 bio-E for full human features and dropping from size level 18 to 10 (human size) provides you with that 40, any animal beginning at levels 19 or 20 get access to more Bio-E than others. However, he seems to have forgotten in some cases that these animals also have attribute bonuses (that are paid for in creation of the template with Bio-E, according to his rules (which he doesn't always follow himself!)). I guess the main reason is that he is saying that hooves are further removed from hands than paws are, and so should cost more to change. I can see his reasoning, but it is inconsistent - why should deer be penalised when cows and buffalos aren't? And in most cases I disagree with increasing the cost for human bipedal stance; I just don't think it is necessary.

If a template is supposedly based on enough bio-E to get full human features at size level 10, then a horse should have 15 bio-E (would gain 40 points for dropping from size level 18 to 10, but it costs 55 bio-E to get full human hands, biped, speech and looks), but it gets none. The buffalo, that is a size level bigger and pays normal costs for human features gets 5 bio-E to start. Why? the horse is the most gypped animal in the book. Poor horsey.

I think I've ranted off topic abit there - the one thing I meant to say regarding your reply was that I think the main problem with having to build a rhino or turtle is that the armour powers cost way too much. It's not a size level issue, it's the 60 bio-E for a power. Pointless. may as well be 600 for all the good it would do.

The rules are simply not built around making a 'normal but intelligent animal'. Not allowing for many of their powers anyway. In the case of the rhino, you could have a go at reducing your size level two steps (therefore staying almost full size), taking any big and slow/dumb options you are able to, and taking all the vestigial disadvantages (which after all, do make the animal more 'normal' i.e. most of the vestigial disadvantages, with the exception of things like vestigail tail, horns, ears etc., are possessd by the original animal), giving you a fair amount of bio-E (50-70) to buy a few animal powers (just lay off the heavy or extra-heavy amour!).

I've tried in the past to come up with alternative systems, starting with an animal with all of its natural powers, and trading them in for size levels and human features (and a few 'upgrades' to powers), but that ended up being very lopsided, as some animals naturally would start with many more powers than others. In this case the larger animals had a massive advantage over the smaller ones. At least the current system is 'fair'. Does anyone have an alternative system of their own?

I just found out something - the original rhino template in TMNT was build: long, but the creator of the ATB version has changed it to short. I can see why (big, stocky animal), but that doesn't mean I have to follow that particular fan's concept! I think I'll change to to medium! problem solved!