Forums of the Megaverse®

I many of the threads here I've seen a raging debate going on about the Ninja arts and why they are inferior to other available styles and whether or not it should be one of the very few forms that count as 2 forms, much less whether or not it should be an exclusive form. So here's a thread where I'm posting my take on it. Of course my views are open for debate to any and all sides of the argument and I welcome all views with open arms. Just one rule on this thread.... try to keep things from getting personal. Nobody who posts an opinion on this thread is "wrong" or "right"... we all have differing opinions and I'm just putting this up for the sake of posting my opinions and seeing the opinions of others.
So, with that said, let the show begin...

Ninjutsu... many decry it as underpowered and incapable of holding its own against comparable forms. Among the most popular of those mentioned are Monkey and Drunken Style Kung Fu, both quite solid forms and with a heavy dose of the Arts of Invisibility that puts them on par with Ninjutsu in the stealth department as well as a decent array of combat moves and powers that can sert them above the form in overall combat strength. in just straight numbers here's how it stacks up...

Drunken Style Kung Fu
Attacks per Melee: 5
Strike: +2
Parry: +3
Dodge: +3
Damage: +2
Roll w/punch: +7
Stagger/Somersault/Roll/back Flip: +7
Rear Attacks: +3
Criticals: Behind (triple damage!), 19-20
KO/Stuns: Behind, 19-20
Death Blow: Nat. 20

Monkey Style Kung Fu
Attacks per Melee: 6
Strike: None
Parry: +5
Dodge: +5
Damage: +4
Roll w/Punch:+8
Leap/Backflip/Somersault/Cartwheel: +7
Breakfall: +2
Criticals: Behind, 18-20
KO/Stuns: Behind, 19-20
Death Blow: Nat. 20

Ninjutsu
Attacks per Melee: 5
Strike: +2
Parry: +2
Dodge: +2
Damage: +4
Roll w/Punch: +7
Leap: +4
Roll/Knock-Down: +5
Backflip/Cartwheel: +5
Criticals: Behind, 18-20
KO/Stuns: 19-20
Death Blow: 19-20

On a styrictly numbers basis, both Monkey and Drunken styles of Kung Fu have Ninjutsu pretty well beaten. Its only real advantages lie in having a better Death Blow and a higher Strike bonus compared to Monkey style. Advantage... Kung Fu
From a powers standpoint...

Dunken Style Kung Fu
4 total powers from among Arts of Invisibility and Body Hardening

Monkey Style Kung Fu
6 total powers from among Arts of Invisibility, Body Hardening, Chi Mastery, and Special Katas, including 4 special Monkey Katas exclusive to the form, one of which is guaranteed at level 1

Ninjutsu
6 powers total from among Arts of Invisibility (2 of which are required at level 1), Body Hardening, Martial Arts Techniques, Special Katas and Zenjorike, plus one additional choice at level 5 which is described only as an "Additional Martial Arts Skill". Not certain if this refers to an additional power or what, so that's open for interpretation.

The way I see it, Ninjutsu has a pretty solid advantage here, especially considering the 2 Weapon Kata choices required at level 1 as well, thus bringing its actual total powers up to 8. Advantage... Ninjutsu
From a combat skills angle...

Rather than list each and every combat move from each form, I'll just sum it up by saying that both forms display an impressive array of moves and defenses. The biggest difference I can see goes to Monkey and Drunken style Kung Fu with the presence of the much vaunted Auto-Dodge, something Ninjutsu does not have. Drunken Style Kung Fu even goes a step further by including an Auto-Roll. Advantage... Kung Fu.

The final note I'd like to bring up about the differences between the forms comes from a role-playing aspect that few people seem to consider. When playing a character with either of the Kung Fu styles, they go through the standard runs of making and using their resources via contacts and/or any organizations they belong to. The Ninjutsu character can also go through the same motions, but few people realize that by taking this form, they are automatically part of what can be considered a global espionage organization... a Ninja Clan! This organization even comes complete with a selection of cover identities for each of its agents as listed in the forms description. Of course, the big disadvantage of this is the fact that the form counts as 2 selections making it exclusive to the Dedicated Martial Artist who is sorely lacking in skills needed for a serious espionage agent, but for something as simple as a high-end assassin, this can probably be one of the best choices to make. Of course the skill problem is easilly remedied with simple house rulings or trading in a power or two for skill programs. However you want to work it out, I say go for it.
In the end, yes Ninjutsu has its downside, but I see a lot of an upside to it as well. It's really just a matter of choice and what kind of character you want to play. For a decent reference, try watching the movie "Ninja Assassin", circa 2009, starring Rain and Naomie Harris. It might be a bit over the top from a gaming aspect, but the back history of Ninja Clan operations through history can make for some pretty solid ideas of how a Ninja character might work and the flashback sequences of the main character make for some pretty intense insights into possible indoctrination techniques. That and it has some pretty kick-ass fight sequences.

Good Luck and Great Gaming!

Monkey Style Kung Fu
6 total powers from among Arts of Invisibility, Body Hardening, Chi Mastery, and Special Katas, including 4 special Monkey Katas exclusive to the form, one of which is guaranteed at level 1

For the sake of argument, let's figure the guaranteed one is the Drunken kata -- which simplifies the comparison by giving Monkey Style the same "to strike" bonus as Drunken Style and Ninjitsu (while pulling it well ahead on parry and damage, given the double-knuckle strike). And, sure, factor in Ninjutsu's assassin-friendly flavor text -- but only while likewise factoring in the assassin-friendly text about how Drunken/Drunken Monkey types can make all attacks look accidental.

That said, I think you have the wrong number of attacks per round for Monkey Style; shouldn't it be higher than Ninjutsu?

Regularguy wrote:

Monkey Style Kung Fu
6 total powers from among Arts of Invisibility, Body Hardening, Chi Mastery, and Special Katas, including 4 special Monkey Katas exclusive to the form, one of which is guaranteed at level 1

For the sake of argument, let's figure the guaranteed one is the Drunken kata -- which simplifies the comparison by giving Monkey Style the same "to strike" bonus as Drunken Style and Ninjitsu (while pulling it well ahead on parry and damage, given the double-knuckle strike). And, sure, factor in Ninjutsu's assassin-friendly flavor text -- but only while likewise factoring in the assassin-friendly text about how Drunken/Drunken Monkey types can make all attacks look accidental.

That said, I think you have the wrong number of attacks per round for Monkey Style; shouldn't it be higher than Ninjutsu?

The number of attacks given is just the baseline amount barring any gained from skills, powers, katas etc. And after checking them both over again, they both max at 5 per melee. Monkey starts with 2 and gains an additional 1 at levels3, 6, and 9. Ninjutsu starts at 2 with an additional 1 at levels 3, 6, and 11. Also, in looking at the Monkey katas, only the Stone Monkey adds any extra attacks. And for some odd reason the Drunken Monkey says it includes an Auto Dodge when the base form already has one. Probably just an oversight, but a bit repetetive nonetheless.

Strange, I never had problems with Ninjitsu or felt it was somehow underpowered or sucky. One of my favorites from the set, along with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu. Then again not having to worry about a restrictions I tend to use it with characters like the Worldly Martial Artist since Dedicated is way way too limited on skills or the Natural and Genius from Nightbane.

And after checking them both over again, they both max at 5 per melee. Monkey starts with 2 and gains an additional 1 at levels3, 6, and 9.

I think you're missing the additional one at 12th, right when existing chi doubles.

Strange, I never had problems with Ninjitsu or felt it was somehow underpowered or sucky. One of my favorites from the set, along with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu.

I, too, have no problems with it. I, too, think it's neither underpowered nor sucky, such that it stacks up just fine in comparison with Tae Kwon Do or Zanji Shinjinken Ryu -- and, for that matter, with Monkey Style Kung Fu. Tae Kwon Do, of course, isn't exclusive, and neither is Zanji Shinjinken Ryu, and neither is Monkey Style Kung Fu.

Regularguy wrote:

And after checking them both over again, they both max at 5 per melee. Monkey starts with 2 and gains an additional 1 at levels3, 6, and 9.

I think you're missing the additional one at 12th, right when existing chi doubles.

Strange, I never had problems with Ninjitsu or felt it was somehow underpowered or sucky. One of my favorites from the set, along with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu.

I, too, have no problems with it. I, too, think it's neither underpowered nor sucky, such that it stacks up just fine in comparison with Tae Kwon Do or Zanji Shinjinken Ryu -- and, for that matter, with Monkey Style Kung Fu. Tae Kwon Do, of course, isn't exclusive, and neither is Zanji Shinjinken Ryu, and neither is Monkey Style Kung Fu.

When you look at some of the other MA that seem to also have steep requirements it's odd that Ninjitsu is an exclusive form when some of the others aren't. Great to combine it with Worldly Martial Artist though, since they get a few extra MA powers as they advance in levels. Some may decry that as 'not-canon' but who cares really? Not like it makes sense that a Dedicated Martial Artist taking Ninjitsu only ends up with one MA, Ninjitsu, and a couple of secondary skills when career-wise alone they should have a great deal more especially when dealing with the modern world.

I mean really, all these MA are depicted as being part of the modern world and it's unrealistic for them to not have at least SOME modern skills and reasonable education especially when the Ninja career path requires knowing how to get modern surveillance systems and techniques otherwise they're going to end up more ineffective over time and you really can't expect an organization like that to not keep up with the times. Sure they stick to ancient weapons as part of their training but should be getting modern skills too that are in keeping with their expected goals (even if the PC is a renegade who left all that behind). Can't infiltrate a modern-day fortress if you can't bypass a security system for example.

When you look at some of the other MA that seem to also have steep requirements it's odd that Ninjitsu is an exclusive form when some of the others aren't. Great to combine it with Worldly Martial Artist though, since they get a few extra MA powers as they advance in levels. Some may decry that as 'not-canon' but who cares really?

I care, as it happens. How far do you take this sort of thing, exactly? The book likewise forbids a Worldly Martial Artist from becoming a Sumo wrestler or a Thai Kickboxer or a Hwarang-Do stylist; do you disregard that as well? Do you let a Commando Mercenary say "Screw it, I want Moo Gi Gong -- or, for that matter, Ninjutsu -- and who cares what the rules say, anyway?" Do you let a Wired Agent start play with a second cyber-attachment because, shucks, why not let the guy have a bionic hand to match his bionic eye, right? Do you let folks trade out a martial art power for skill programs other than the specified basics? Where do you draw the line?

I of course sidestep all such questions by simply going with the rules as written; the powers that be wanted to limit Ninjitsu to Dedicated Martial Artists the same way they wanted Worldly types barred from Sumo wrestling, and wanted the Commando walled off from Moo Gi Gong, and wanted the Wired agent to be decidedly restricted in his cybernetic options -- they built in all sorts of restrictions, and I don't want to invent my own rules; if I did, I'd write my own game.

I mean really, all these MA are depicted as being part of the modern world and it's unrealistic for them to not have at least SOME modern skills and reasonable education especially when the Ninja career path requires knowing how to get modern surveillance systems and techniques otherwise they're going to end up more ineffective over time and you really can't expect an organization like that to not keep up with the times.

Given the rules, I expect the organization to have people for that sort of thing.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:When you look at some of the other MA that seem to also have steep requirements it's odd that Ninjitsu is an exclusive form when some of the others aren't. Great to combine it with Worldly Martial Artist though, since they get a few extra MA powers as they advance in levels. Some may decry that as 'not-canon' but who cares really?

I care, as it happens. How far do you take this sort of thing, exactly? The book likewise forbids a Worldly Martial Artist from becoming a Sumo wrestler or a Thai Kickboxer or a Hwarang-Do stylist; do you disregard that as well? Do you let a Commando Mercenary say "Screw it, I want Moo Gi Gong -- or, for that matter, Ninjutsu -- and who cares what the rules say, anyway?" Do you let a Wired Agent start play with a second cyber-attachment because, shucks, why not let the guy have a bionic hand to match his bionic eye, right? Do you let folks trade out a martial art power for skill programs other than the specified basics? Where do you draw the line?

I of course sidestep all such questions by simply going with the rules as written; the powers that be wanted to limit Ninjitsu to Dedicated Martial Artists the same way they wanted Worldly types barred from Sumo wrestling, and wanted the Commando walled off from Moo Gi Gong, and wanted the Wired agent to be decidedly restricted in his cybernetic options -- they built in all sorts of restrictions, and I don't want to invent my own rules; if I did, I'd write my own game.

And why exactly do you care? I'm quite free to create characters and play around with things however I feel like. Sure if I were submitting them for a particular game they might not meet approval but so what? I'm not going to limit my creativity or act as if trying something outside the rules is some kind of heresy. You like to play completely inside the box never peeking out? Good for you, but I happen to like looking outside the box as there might be something great there but I'd never know if I kept hiding inside the box. The books are guidelines not straight-jackets or tablets carved in stone from on high.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I mean really, all these MA are depicted as being part of the modern world and it's unrealistic for them to not have at least SOME modern skills and reasonable education especially when the Ninja career path requires knowing how to get modern surveillance systems and techniques otherwise they're going to end up more ineffective over time and you really can't expect an organization like that to not keep up with the times.

Given the rules, I expect the organization to have people for that sort of thing.

Right, that'd be the Worldly Martial Artist Ninja, since ninja generally operate alone and they can hardly get by in the modern world barely literate and with two secondary skills and not going to be a particularly effective ninja when he can't even get past a locked door because it's got an electronic keypad and there's a surveillance camera nearby.

Nightmask wrote:You like to play completely inside the box never peeking out? Good for you, but I happen to like looking outside the box as there might be something great there but I'd never know if I kept hiding inside the box.

I want to see what can be done inside the box because I already know what can be done outside the box; anything can be done outside the box. Eight martial arts and every gizmoteering skill program? Sure, it can be done. A bionic foot that can bring the dead back to life? Yup. A new kata that lets you summon angry bees to sting people's eyes for you? Naturally.

Look, you asked an interesting question a little while back in another thread: why be a Thief (Free Agent)? It goes without saying that anyone could've popped in to say "because they get half-a-dozen Arts of Invisibility," or "because they can start play with every Cyber-Disguise plus a cool million in pocket money" or whatever, making up whatever they want as they go along. Nobody did, because it's beyond obvious that someone who jettisons the rules can of course produce the answer of their choice at will.

In this thread, JuliusCreed kicked off a rules-as-written comparison by listing the bonuses to strike and dodge and parry and so on. Again, it's beyond obvious that anyone could've replied by swapping in completely different bonuses -- preferably with a quip about how there might be something great if we look outside the box -- but no one did, because that's always on the table. We can always throw stuff out and make up our own rules. It goes without saying.

What we can do inside the rules is limited and needs to be spelled out. What we can do outside the rules is, simply, unlimited. Feel free to post a note to that effect in pretty much every thread from here on out, whenever someone asks about the merits of a skill or a class or a martial art or whatever; just copy-and-paste a quick "Just stopping in to mention that you can ignore the rules if you want." I think we all take that for granted, but, by all means, make it explicit time and again, y'know?

Nightmask wrote:ninja generally operate alone and they can hardly get by in the modern world barely literate and with two secondary skills

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "ninja generally operate alone". That said, why do you think they designed the game so that Ninjitsu is the exclusive province of the DMA and his severely restricted skill list?

Regularguy wrote:

And after checking them both over again, they both max at 5 per melee. Monkey starts with 2 and gains an additional 1 at levels3, 6, and 9.

I think you're missing the additional one at 12th, right when existing chi doubles.

You're absolutely right... thanks for the catch

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You like to play completely inside the box never peeking out? Good for you, but I happen to like looking outside the box as there might be something great there but I'd never know if I kept hiding inside the box.

I want to see what can be done inside the box because I already know what can be done outside the box; anything can be done outside the box. Eight martial arts and every gizmoteering skill program? Sure, it can be done. A bionic foot that can bring the dead back to life? Yup. A new kata that lets you summon angry bees to sting people's eyes for you? Naturally.

Look, you asked an interesting question a little while back in another thread: why be a Thief (Free Agent)? It goes without saying that anyone could've popped in to say "because they get half-a-dozen Arts of Invisibility," or "because they can start play with every Cyber-Disguise plus a cool million in pocket money" or whatever, making up whatever they want as they go along. Nobody did, because it's beyond obvious that someone who jettisons the rules can of course produce the answer of their choice at will.

I imagine no one did such because they wouldn't have been actually responding to the thread, since in asking about the Thief (Free Agent) it was a question about the actual class so tossing out wild comments about it having things it absolutely doesn't would make one look stupid. Since it was comparing that class to the other classes naturally no one who responded would toss out reasons that aren't even included with the class as written.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:In this thread, JuliusCreed kicked off a rules-as-written comparison by listing the bonuses to strike and dodge and parry and so on. Again, it's beyond obvious that anyone could've replied by swapping in completely different bonuses -- preferably with a quip about how there might be something great if we look outside the box -- but no one did, because that's always on the table. We can always throw stuff out and make up our own rules. It goes without saying.

What we can do inside the rules is limited and needs to be spelled out. What we can do outside the rules is, simply, unlimited. Feel free to post a note to that effect in pretty much every thread from here on out, whenever someone asks about the merits of a skill or a class or a martial art or whatever; just copy-and-paste a quick "Just stopping in to mention that you can ignore the rules if you want." I think we all take that for granted, but, by all means, make it explicit time and again, y'know?

You realize that's quite the snarky and condescending comment right? Particularly since what you're tossing that fit about was a comment about enjoying the MA and noting I enjoyed trying it out in ways not just how the book restricts things NOT as you are trying to allude just rewriting it with whatever bonuses or abilities I feel like. I guess you ought to feel free to post in every thread from here on out how everyone has to do everything by the rules because no one should ever try anything outside the box because of the horrible anarchy involved.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:ninja generally operate alone and they can hardly get by in the modern world barely literate and with two secondary skills

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "ninja generally operate alone". That said, why do you think they designed the game so that Ninjitsu is the exclusive province of the DMA and his severely restricted skill list?

You might have noticed that the revised printing has items left over from the original scattered throughout and you can get a feeling that the revisions have problems as a result of various problems. The DMA originally got three MA selections, one could easily imagine in that case someone having spent all that time learning three different styles would be lacking in other skills (but even then just a couple of secondary skills is still really pitiful unless you select MA that carry conventional skills as well like Zanji). The WMA would have had two styles available, making it possible to learn an exclusive form with a two-style cost like Ninjitsu and still be fairly well-rounded.

I imagine no one did such because they wouldn't have been actually responding to the thread, since in asking about the Thief (Free Agent) it was a question about the actual class so tossing out wild comments about it having things it absolutely doesn't would make one look stupid. Since it was comparing that class to the other classes naturally no one who responded would toss out reasons that aren't even included with the class as written.

And this is a thread comparing Ninjitsu to other forms -- "many decry it as underpowered and incapable of holding its own against comparable forms. Among the most popular of those mentioned are Monkey and Drunken Style Kung Fu, both quite solid forms and with a heavy dose of the Arts of Invisibility that puts them on par with Ninjutsu in the stealth department as well as a decent array of combat moves and powers that can sert them above the form in overall combat strength. in just straight numbers here's how it stacks up ... On a styrictly numbers basis, both Monkey and Drunken styles of Kung Fu have Ninjutsu pretty well beaten. Its only real advantages lie in having a better Death Blow and a higher Strike bonus compared to Monkey style ... The way I see it, Ninjutsu has a pretty solid advantage here, especially considering the 2 Weapon Kata choices required at level 1 as well, thus bringing its actual total powers up to 8 ... I'll just sum it up by saying that both forms display an impressive array of moves and defenses. The biggest difference I can see goes to Monkey and Drunken style Kung Fu with the presence of the much vaunted Auto-Dodge, something Ninjutsu does not have."

It's comparing a martial art to other martial arts. You toss out talk of a Worldly Martial Artist bolstering Ninjitsu with yet other powers, which the class as written can't do. Why do in one thread what you'd decry in another? (And while expressly mentioning that it's non-canonical, but, hey, who cares?) Your reasons don't factor in to a rules-as-written comparison; they merely jettison the rules as written.

The WMA would have had two styles available, making it possible to learn an exclusive form with a two-style cost like Ninjitsu and still be fairly well-rounded.

Nah, you need a non-canonical two-step on that one: change the rules so the WMA gets two arts, and also change the rules so he gets exclusive ones. Do one or the other and he still can't take Ninjitsu; stick with the rules as written and he also can't take Sumo or Hwarang-Do sure as he can't take Tai Chi and Cotton Fist Kung Fu

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I imagine no one did such because they wouldn't have been actually responding to the thread, since in asking about the Thief (Free Agent) it was a question about the actual class so tossing out wild comments about it having things it absolutely doesn't would make one look stupid. Since it was comparing that class to the other classes naturally no one who responded would toss out reasons that aren't even included with the class as written.

And this is a thread comparing Ninjitsu to other forms -- "many decry it as underpowered and incapable of holding its own against comparable forms. Among the most popular of those mentioned are Monkey and Drunken Style Kung Fu, both quite solid forms and with a heavy dose of the Arts of Invisibility that puts them on par with Ninjutsu in the stealth department as well as a decent array of combat moves and powers that can sert them above the form in overall combat strength. in just straight numbers here's how it stacks up ... On a styrictly numbers basis, both Monkey and Drunken styles of Kung Fu have Ninjutsu pretty well beaten. Its only real advantages lie in having a better Death Blow and a higher Strike bonus compared to Monkey style ... The way I see it, Ninjutsu has a pretty solid advantage here, especially considering the 2 Weapon Kata choices required at level 1 as well, thus bringing its actual total powers up to 8 ... I'll just sum it up by saying that both forms display an impressive array of moves and defenses. The biggest difference I can see goes to Monkey and Drunken style Kung Fu with the presence of the much vaunted Auto-Dodge, something Ninjutsu does not have."

It's comparing a martial art to other martial arts. You toss out talk of a Worldly Martial Artist bolstering Ninjitsu with yet other powers, which the class as written can't do. Why do in one thread what you'd decry in another? (And while expressly mentioning that it's non-canonical, but, hey, who cares?) Your reasons don't factor in to a rules-as-written comparison; they merely jettison the rules as written.

You should reread the Worldly Martial Artist, under Special Martial Arts Bonus, they acquire an extra Martial Arts power at level 1 in their chosen MA based on the available forms, and acquire another 5 levels later and a Zenjoriki at level 10 on top of what they're getting via level advancement in the MA. Which would mean a WMA Ninjitsu master can have a few extra powers to bolster it. I'm looking at the Ninjitsu MA in general based on its own merits rather than counting up bonuses and comparing game advantages of the various MA.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:The WMA would have had two styles available, making it possible to learn an exclusive form with a two-style cost like Ninjitsu and still be fairly well-rounded.

Nah, you need a non-canonical two-step on that one: change the rules so the WMA gets two arts, and also change the rules so he gets exclusive ones. Do one or the other and he still can't take Ninjitsu; stick with the rules as written and he also can't take Sumo or Hwarang-Do sure as he can't take Tai Chi and Cotton Fist Kung Fu

Or go by the canonical original unrevised book instead of the revised book's revisions. Really, you're making it way more important than it actually is with the whole 'everything by the letter of the book else the world end in destruction!' deal. A Worldly Martial Artist Ninjitsu master isn't the horrible thing you're making it out to be, certainly not in a game where most of the other classes can have upwards of 80 skills available to them and many of those classes include a dedicated MA being available to them like Tai-Chi or Tae Kwon Do.

Nightmask wrote:You should reread the Worldly Martial Artist, under Special Martial Arts Bonus, they acquire an extra Martial Arts power at level 1 in their chosen MA based on the available forms

I know that. I recently pointed it out, in another by-the-book comparison thread you'd started. My point is that Ninjitsu can't be "their chosen MA based on the available forms". Ninjitsu is an exclusive martial art that requires two selections; Drunken Style is nonexclusive and requires one selection, Monkey Style is nonexclusive and requires one selection, Ninjitsu -- is restricted to the DMA, just like the other two are open to Worldly types (and Wired types, and the Operative and the Commando, and the Dreamer Gizmoteer and the Veteran Grunt, and so on).

I'm looking at the Ninjitsu MA in general based on its own merits rather than counting up bonuses and comparing game advantages of the various MA.

You're looking at the Ninjitsu MA on its own merits, but not on its own drawbacks. For example, it's limited to the DMA.

Or go by the canonical original unrevised book instead of the revised book's revisions.

The canonical revisions?

A Worldly Martial Artist Ninjitsu master isn't the horrible thing you're making it out to be, certainly not in a game where most of the other classes can have upwards of 80 skills available to them and many of those classes include a dedicated MA being available to them like Tai-Chi or Tae Kwon Do.

That sure is how it's written. I don't have a problem with how it's written.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You should reread the Worldly Martial Artist, under Special Martial Arts Bonus, they acquire an extra Martial Arts power at level 1 in their chosen MA based on the available forms

I know that. I recently pointed it out, in another by-the-book comparison thread you'd started. My point is that Ninjitsu can't be "their chosen MA based on the available forms". Ninjitsu is an exclusive martial art that requires two selections; Drunken Style is nonexclusive and requires one selection, Monkey Style is nonexclusive and requires one selection, Ninjitsu -- is restricted to the DMA, just like the other two are open to Worldly types (and Wired types, and the Operative and the Commando, and the Dreamer Gizmoteer and the Veteran Grunt, and so on).

I shouldn't have to point out that whether or not it's restricted to the dedicated martial artist is purely up to the GM and not everyone does everything that the book says like you do.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I'm looking at the Ninjitsu MA in general based on its own merits rather than counting up bonuses and comparing game advantages of the various MA.

You're looking at the Ninjitsu MA on its own merits, but not on its own drawbacks. For example, it's limited to the DMA.

Or not, as the case might be.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Or go by the canonical original unrevised book instead of the revised book's revisions.

The canonical revisions?

Which are only as canonical as the GM wants them to be, which seems to be the one rule in all the books you seem to ignore. The book is a set of guidelines, it's not a bible writ in stone tablets.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:A Worldly Martial Artist Ninjitsu master isn't the horrible thing you're making it out to be, certainly not in a game where most of the other classes can have upwards of 80 skills available to them and many of those classes include a dedicated MA being available to them like Tai-Chi or Tae Kwon Do.

That sure is how it's written. I don't have a problem with how it's written.

Well of course not, your only focus seems to be on 'I never do or allow anything that isn't in the book and follow the most restrictive interpretation possible', you don't care if something's written great or poorly just as long as it's adhered to. I don't have that problem.

Actually I find being a ninja who cannot deal with modern surveillance and security measures to be silly and one of the reasons N&SS needs a serious update.

A clan/organization that goes so far to train a ninja is going to make damn sure they can deal with a variety of modern surveillance problems in order to remain the stealthy assassins they are. The book may not state they do as written but if that is how you (Regularguy) do everything do you still use all the so called high tech as high tech when compared to modern day tech it is in fact NOT so hi tech? Do you restrict yourself to the weapons listed int eh book as the standard weapons even though many militaries and organizations no longer use them?

Back in the 80's (when the book was made and last revised) A classic DMA Ninja didn't have to deal with the plethora of motion sensors, thermal detection via infa-red cameras etc etc as they would now in 2011. THAT is why I think THAT Nightmask is saying the Ninja as is no longer is viable and needs to have people thinking out of the box. The game as a whole now needs you to think out of the box because the damn thing is so outdated by the modern era in comparison to the 80's when the game was written. Sadly PB is not likely to actually do a 2nd edition or major revision to update it to the modern world.

jaymz wrote:Actually I find being a ninja who cannot deal with modern surveillance and security measures to be silly and one of the reasons N&SS needs a serious update.

A clan/organization that goes so far to train a ninja is going to make damn sure they can deal with a variety of modern surveillance problems in order to remain the stealthy assassins they are. The book may not state they do as written but if that is how you (Regularguy) do everything do you still use all the so called high tech as high tech when compared to modern day tech it is in fact NOT so hi tech? Do you restrict yourself to the weapons listed int eh book as the standard weapons even though many militaries and organizations no longer use them?

Back in the 80's (when the book was made and last revised) A classic DMA Ninja didn't have to deal with the plethora of motion sensors, thermal detection via infa-red cameras etc etc as they would now in 2011. THAT is why I think THAT Nightmask is saying the Ninja as is no longer is viable and needs to have people thinking out of the box. The game as a whole now needs you to think out of the box because the damn thing is so outdated by the modern era in comparison to the 80's when the game was written. Sadly PB is not likely to actually do a 2nd edition or major revision to update it to the modern world.

One of the main reasons I tend to ignore those restrictions when creating Ninja characters with Ninjitsu and have them be Worldly Martial Artists (like the TMNT). Makes them more a part of the world and suited to surviving and prospering in modern times, because they aren't stupid they're only going to hold to the old ways that still work in a modern time, and incorporate new stuff to deal with what the old ways don't.

Then again it's fun to use the Natural and Genius class from Nightbane and have the character with Ninjitsu (not impossible afer all that a clan could have one born into it), just charge it 6 skills and still have six left over for more modern skills. Given there's at least one and maybe two special abilities that could be selected Mental Genius and Electrical Genius would quite complement the character too.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:Actually I find being a ninja who cannot deal with modern surveillance and security measures to be silly and one of the reasons N&SS needs a serious update.

A clan/organization that goes so far to train a ninja is going to make damn sure they can deal with a variety of modern surveillance problems in order to remain the stealthy assassins they are. The book may not state they do as written but if that is how you (Regularguy) do everything do you still use all the so called high tech as high tech when compared to modern day tech it is in fact NOT so hi tech? Do you restrict yourself to the weapons listed int eh book as the standard weapons even though many militaries and organizations no longer use them?

Back in the 80's (when the book was made and last revised) A classic DMA Ninja didn't have to deal with the plethora of motion sensors, thermal detection via infa-red cameras etc etc as they would now in 2011. THAT is why I think THAT Nightmask is saying the Ninja as is no longer is viable and needs to have people thinking out of the box. The game as a whole now needs you to think out of the box because the damn thing is so outdated by the modern era in comparison to the 80's when the game was written. Sadly PB is not likely to actually do a 2nd edition or major revision to update it to the modern world.

One of the main reasons I tend to ignore those restrictions when creating Ninja characters with Ninjitsu and have them be Worldly Martial Artists (like the TMNT). Makes them more a part of the world and suited to surviving and prospering in modern times, because they aren't stupid they're only going to hold to the old ways that still work in a modern time, and incorporate new stuff to deal with what the old ways don't.

Then again it's fun to use the Natural and Genius class from Nightbane and have the character with Ninjitsu (not impossible afer all that a clan could have one born into it), just charge it 6 skills and still have six left over for more modern skills. Given there's at least one and maybe two special abilities that could be selected Mental Genius and Electrical Genius would quite complement the character too.

You do realize I was, in essence, agreeing with your stance on the matter right?

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:One of the main reasons I tend to ignore those restrictions when creating Ninja characters with Ninjitsu and have them be Worldly Martial Artists (like the TMNT). Makes them more a part of the world and suited to surviving and prospering in modern times, because they aren't stupid they're only going to hold to the old ways that still work in a modern time, and incorporate new stuff to deal with what the old ways don't.

Then again it's fun to use the Natural and Genius class from Nightbane and have the character with Ninjitsu (not impossible afer all that a clan could have one born into it), just charge it 6 skills and still have six left over for more modern skills. Given there's at least one and maybe two special abilities that could be selected Mental Genius and Electrical Genius would quite complement the character too.

You do realize I was, in essence, agreeing with your stance on the matter right?

Why yes, yes I did. I didn't realize my reply would be read the opposite of what I thought I was saying (I do repeat myself sometimes and the power went off while I was writing the post and didn't really get to review it either). Then just tossed in something I like as an amusing idea, I really like the flexible fun of the N&G.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:One of the main reasons I tend to ignore those restrictions when creating Ninja characters with Ninjitsu and have them be Worldly Martial Artists (like the TMNT). Makes them more a part of the world and suited to surviving and prospering in modern times, because they aren't stupid they're only going to hold to the old ways that still work in a modern time, and incorporate new stuff to deal with what the old ways don't.

Then again it's fun to use the Natural and Genius class from Nightbane and have the character with Ninjitsu (not impossible afer all that a clan could have one born into it), just charge it 6 skills and still have six left over for more modern skills. Given there's at least one and maybe two special abilities that could be selected Mental Genius and Electrical Genius would quite complement the character too.

You do realize I was, in essence, agreeing with your stance on the matter right?

Why yes, yes I did. I didn't realize my reply would be read the opposite of what I thought I was saying (I do repeat myself sometimes and the power went off while I was writing the post and didn't really get to review it either). Then just tossed in something I like as an amusing idea, I really like the flexible fun of the N&G.

No worries...the sad part is the game will never likely receive the proper update it needs in order to stay relevant and appealing to new gamers looking for a spy like game. In the days of Top Secret or Top Secret/S.I. N&SS was the **** now.....I read thru it and think I should really get more Spycraft stuff....not because of the system but because of the setting and how one is old and in serious need of update and hte other is not.

jaymz wrote:No worries...the sad part is the game will never likely receive the proper update it needs in order to stay relevant and appealing to new gamers looking for a spy like game. In the days of Top Secret or Top Secret/S.I. N&SS was the **** now.....I read thru it and think I should really get more Spycraft stuff....not because of the system but because of the setting and how one is old and in serious need of update and hte other is not.

Would be nice to see it get some attention instead of everything going into Rifts (or nearly everything). Clean up the errors left over in creating the revised book and update things across the board. It does make a nice template for creating characters when I'm trying to write. Palladium tends to be my favorite to use for characters more human level, I use Marvel and AD&D for more high-fantasy or super-heroic. Luckily you can import stuff and use the more updated books like HU to fill in some of the holes at least for N&SS.

Nightmask wrote:I shouldn't have to point out that whether or not it's restricted to the dedicated martial artist is purely up to the GM and not everyone does everything that the book says like you do.

You shouldn't ever have to point that out. It's beyond obvious.

Again, you recently asked why anyone would play a Thief; again, anyone could've pointed out that whether or not the Thief is restricted to the martial arts and skill programs in the OCC description is up to the GM. Nobody bothered, because everybody already knows that; it goes without saying.

I'll add that you recently asked what everyone's favorite OCC was. You posted your own choice: "I tend to lean towards the Tinker Gizmoteer myself. There's a lot of flexibility when it comes to what kind you can create. You can have a Cyber-doc, Professional Thief, Bodyguard/Assassin, and even a vehicle expert and pilot depending on what you center your non-Gizmoteer program around. Sure you don't get any dedicated MA and have to settle for the standard HtH selections but depending on the choices for your Skill programs you can be an incredible asset for a team." Nobody -- including you -- bothered to point out that a GM can of course ignore the rules to allow Tinker Gizmoteers to gain a dedicated MA; it was too obvious to deserve mention.

And if, in days to come, someone asks whether Te is underpowered compared to Jujutsu -- well, no, you shouldn't have to point out that whether each art is restricted to the punches and kicks and powers and bonuses listed in the book is merely a matter of GM discretion. If someone asks whether the Commando Mercenary is underpowered compared to the Veteran Grunt, you likewise shouldn't have to point out that any OCC can start play with bionic limbs or an extra zenjorike power if the GM feels like it. If someone asks whether the Explosive Construction skill program is underpowered compared to the Computer Hacking skill program, you again shouldn't have to point out that a GM can of course add half-a-dozen skills to either program at will.

In fact, you should probably just skip over mentioning that sort of thing at all; we already know it. I'm astonished that you felt the need to post it in this thread; it seems too obvious to deserve mention.

jaymz wrote:Back in the 80's (when the book was made and last revised) A classic DMA Ninja didn't have to deal with the plethora of motion sensors, thermal detection via infa-red cameras etc etc as they would now in 2011.

I'm not sure I agree. Doesn't the '80s-era "Equipment" section already have a commercially-available motion detector that (with sensor placement and monitor screen) neatly pinpoints the location of a would-be intruder for a low price, easy as you can install a decidedly affordable strip of invisible-light sensors across a doorway -- easy as you can cheaply set up a 25' field of detection some 250' away from the portable/handheld heat sensors, if you didn't want the cheaper (but just as available) infrared optics good out to 1200 feet? So wouldn't the mundane stuff rigged up with the Surveillance Systems skill -- "motion detectors, trip alarm systems, complex alarm systems, video and camera equipment, amplified sound systems," and so on -- have troubled a DMA-with-two-secondary-skills guy back when, loooong before we got to 2011-era tech? (Heck, wouldn't the '80s-era Infrared Sensing Chip [cost: $12] from the book sufficed?) And didn't the Agency Design chapter already give the option of locking down offices not just with video monitors and metal detectors, but with retinal scanners?

I don't see how an '80s-era Ninja was supposed to outfox the gear in that book on his own, sure as I also don't see how a current one is supposed to outfox stuff these days. And so I figure whatever he was meant to do then is -- what he's still meant to do now.

Regularguy wrote:
I don't see how an '80s-era Ninja was supposed to outfox the gear in that book on his own, sure as I also don't see how a current one is supposed to outfox stuff these days. And so I figure whatever he was meant to do then is -- what he's still meant to do now.

Yet in the movies of the day (and I have many of them on dfvd and have watched them repeatedly) as wellas more modern movies, which may I remind everyone N7SS is supposed to emulate (along with James Bond, and any number of Chuck Norris-esque 80's movies) Ninjas were in fact quite capable of getting around such security measures. yet in N&SS they cannot and never can without help. Much like the issues I have with HU in that you cannot create a true powerhouse ala Hulk or Juggernaut within the rules given.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I shouldn't have to point out that whether or not it's restricted to the dedicated martial artist is purely up to the GM and not everyone does everything that the book says like you do.

You shouldn't ever have to point that out. It's beyond obvious.

Again, you recently asked why anyone would play a Thief; again, anyone could've pointed out that whether or not the Thief is restricted to the martial arts and skill programs in the OCC description is up to the GM. Nobody bothered, because everybody already knows that; it goes without saying.

I'll add that you recently asked what everyone's favorite OCC was. You posted your own choice: "I tend to lean towards the Tinker Gizmoteer myself. There's a lot of flexibility when it comes to what kind you can create. You can have a Cyber-doc, Professional Thief, Bodyguard/Assassin, and even a vehicle expert and pilot depending on what you center your non-Gizmoteer program around. Sure you don't get any dedicated MA and have to settle for the standard HtH selections but depending on the choices for your Skill programs you can be an incredible asset for a team." Nobody -- including you -- bothered to point out that a GM can of course ignore the rules to allow Tinker Gizmoteers to gain a dedicated MA; it was too obvious to deserve mention.

And if, in days to come, someone asks whether Te is underpowered compared to Jujutsu -- well, no, you shouldn't have to point out that whether each art is restricted to the punches and kicks and powers and bonuses listed in the book is merely a matter of GM discretion. If someone asks whether the Commando Mercenary is underpowered compared to the Veteran Grunt, you likewise shouldn't have to point out that any OCC can start play with bionic limbs or an extra zenjorike power if the GM feels like it. If someone asks whether the Explosive Construction skill program is underpowered compared to the Computer Hacking skill program, you again shouldn't have to point out that a GM can of course add half-a-dozen skills to either program at will.

In fact, you should probably just skip over mentioning that sort of thing at all; we already know it. I'm astonished that you felt the need to post it in this thread; it seems too obvious to deserve mention.

I don't know, seems like you at least need the reminder that the books aren't stone tablets that one risks universal destruction if not followed to the letter in all things. That and the exaggerations you like to toss out to confuse the matter and skip addressing actual points are a waste of time spent typing. You really can't equate suggesting that the restrictions on Ninjitsu are too restrictive when it comes to making it only available to the Dedicated Martial Artist instead of available to the Worldly Martial Artist as well with Academy Officers starting out as Partial Conversion Borgs if they want to or whatever exaggeration you feel like making.

Regularguy wrote:

jaymz wrote:Back in the 80's (when the book was made and last revised) A classic DMA Ninja didn't have to deal with the plethora of motion sensors, thermal detection via infa-red cameras etc etc as they would now in 2011.

I'm not sure I agree. Doesn't the '80s-era "Equipment" section already have a commercially-available motion detector that (with sensor placement and monitor screen) neatly pinpoints the location of a would-be intruder for a low price, easy as you can install a decidedly affordable strip of invisible-light sensors across a doorway -- easy as you can cheaply set up a 25' field of detection some 250' away from the portable/handheld heat sensors, if you didn't want the cheaper (but just as available) infrared optics good out to 1200 feet? So wouldn't the mundane stuff rigged up with the Surveillance Systems skill -- "motion detectors, trip alarm systems, complex alarm systems, video and camera equipment, amplified sound systems," and so on -- have troubled a DMA-with-two-secondary-skills guy back when, loooong before we got to 2011-era tech? (Heck, wouldn't the '80s-era Infrared Sensing Chip [cost: $12] from the book sufficed?) And didn't the Agency Design chapter already give the option of locking down offices not just with video monitors and metal detectors, but with retinal scanners?

I don't see how an '80s-era Ninja was supposed to outfox the gear in that book on his own, sure as I also don't see how a current one is supposed to outfox stuff these days. And so I figure whatever he was meant to do then is -- what he's still meant to do now.

The 80's Ninja wasn't in an era of ubiquitous spy cameras and advanced security systems that were seen as science fiction back then like Retinal and Fingerprint/Palmprint scanners. There was little of that advanced tech around in general for a Ninja in the game to worry about, unlike a modern game set today when everyone's running around with digital cameras, instant uploading to youtube, and just about anyone can afford gadgets that weren't even available in the 80s.

Yet in the movies of the day (and I have many of them on dfvd and have watched them repeatedly) as wellas more modern movies, which may I remind everyone N7SS is supposed to emulate (along with James Bond, and any number of Chuck Norris-esque 80's movies) Ninjas were in fact quite capable of getting around such security measures. yet in N&SS they cannot and never can without help.

So let's be clear: regardless of whether a DMA with two secondary skills can do it now, you seem to agree that they "cannot and never can" have done it then.

Let's see if we likewise agree on the following: while a DMA with two secondary skills would be vexed by the stuff in the book -- motion detectors, invisible-light beams, video cameras, heat sensors, burglar alarms, infrared optics, retinal scanners -- other OCCs could easily dress up all in black while supplementing the Arts of Invisibility with cutting-edge gizmoteering skills to get around electronic security measures, and draw on a Military skill program and a Basic skill program to boot. I figure a Worldly Martial Artist could do it, and start play with a free martial-arts power; I likewise figure a Wandering Free Agent could do it, and pick up an Espionage program instead; a "technical specialist" Operative could do it, and double up on Military and Espionage programs; a "jack-of-all trades" Dreamer could do it, and triple up on Gizmoteering instead; and so on.

So that's who you're seeing in the movies of the day. And if we needed that solution back in the '80s, and still need it now, I don't see that anything has changed; the rules were already meant to hamstring a DMA up against motion detectors and video cameras and invisible-light beams and burglar alarms and heat sensors and infrared optics; they still do; so what?

The 80's Ninja wasn't in an era of ubiquitous spy cameras and advanced security systems that were seen as science fiction back then like Retinal and Fingerprint/Palmprint scanners. There was little of that advanced tech around in general for a Ninja in the game to worry about, unlike a modern game set today when everyone's running around with digital cameras, instant uploading to youtube, and just about anyone can afford gadgets that weren't even available in the 80s.

The book makes clear that some items are of poor availability and high cost, but spells out that the stuff I'm harping on -- motion detectors, invisible-light beams, infrared optics, and so on -- are plenty cheaper and quite available (and video cameras and burglar alarms even more so). That said, while you're saying the game treats retinal and fingerprint scanners like science fiction, I'm not seeing that tone; the book just mentions 'em while going on to spell out that "fooling the retina camera is simple" given the next step in technology. (Heck, a Wired Agent -- who, like I was just saying, can help along the Arts of Invisibility with gizmoteering skills and military skills and espionage skills -- can use his bionic eye to beat the retinal scanner and manipulate his vocal cords and fingertips to beat yet other scanners and still have a cybernetic part to spare; in fact, the book spells out exactly what such an eye is: "Designed for one, and only one, purpose. To get around retinal canera security devices.") Strikes me as no different than spelling out how nifty the Tempest Monitor is for someone looking to grab info, and then adds the obvious next step: "shielded anti-tempest machines are available and will be found in most high-budget security installations."

But I digress. The point is, I don't see how a DMA with two secondary skills was supposed to beat the '80s-era tech in the book all by himself, and so it doesn't bother me that yet other stuff would also be a problem.

I don't know, seems like you at least need the reminder that the books aren't stone tablets that one risks universal destruction if not followed to the letter in all things.

Again, feel free to post it in every comparison thread from here on out; I figured it was beyond obvious to mention that we can of course jettison the rules at will, and figured that was why you hadn't bothered doing it in previous threads; knock yourself out in days to come.

That and the exaggerations you like to toss out to confuse the matter and skip addressing actual points are a waste of time spent typing. You really can't equate suggesting that the restrictions on Ninjitsu are too restrictive when it comes to making it only available to the Dedicated Martial Artist instead of available to the Worldly Martial Artist as well with Academy Officers starting out as Partial Conversion Borgs if they want to or whatever exaggeration you feel like making.

Actually, I think that's less of an exaggeration. At least an Academy Officer could eventually get bionic parts; the restrictions on Ninjitsu aren't open to ever getting bypassed, since they take the DMA limitation MUCH more seriously. For some reason, they really wanted to make Ninjitsu -- and Hwarang-Do, and Chi Hsuan Men, and so on -- exclusive to DMAs with two secondary skills.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Yet in the movies of the day (and I have many of them on dfvd and have watched them repeatedly) as wellas more modern movies, which may I remind everyone N7SS is supposed to emulate (along with James Bond, and any number of Chuck Norris-esque 80's movies) Ninjas were in fact quite capable of getting around such security measures. yet in N&SS they cannot and never can without help.

So let's be clear: regardless of whether a DMA with two secondary skills can do it now, you seem to agree that they "cannot and never can" have done it then.

Let's see if we likewise agree on the following: while a DMA with two secondary skills would be vexed by the stuff in the book -- motion detectors, invisible-light beams, video cameras, heat sensors, burglar alarms, infrared optics, retinal scanners -- other OCCs could easily dress up all in black while supplementing the Arts of Invisibility with cutting-edge gizmoteering skills to get around electronic security measures, and draw on a Military skill program and a Basic skill program to boot. I figure a Worldly Martial Artist could do it, and start play with a free martial-arts power; I likewise figure a Wandering Free Agent could do it, and pick up an Espionage program instead; a "technical specialist" Operative could do it, and double up on Military and Espionage programs; a "jack-of-all trades" Dreamer could do it, and triple up on Gizmoteering instead; and so on.

So that's who you're seeing in the movies of the day. And if we needed that solution back in the '80s, and still need it now, I don't see that anything has changed; the rules were already meant to hamstring a DMA up against motion detectors and video cameras and invisible-light beams and burglar alarms and heat sensors and infrared optics; they still do; so what?

Actually I don't agree with you on that, since while I dislike the idea of penalizing the Ninja in such a way he can sacrifice a MA power in exchange for a basic problem, which could include ones containing electrical and mechanical knowledge that would let one deal with such things. Also that's only your opinion as to what the purpose of the rule was, it's by no means the actual reason why the DMA is so improperly weighted down. In fact it could actually be because someone could take multiple MA and give up a number of MA powers and stack up on Basic Skill programs. Which would also explain the reduction from 3 forms down to 2; while I don't claim it to be the reason why it's possible in feedback they learned too many players were gaming the system taking a MA or two and selling off the powers for a lot of skill programs. Plenty of reasons other than 'Palladium wanted to intentionally hose a player of a DMA'. Meanwhile the WMA reduced to allowing just one form encourages a player to keep all those MA powers because they've got those other skill programs to fill in.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:The 80's Ninja wasn't in an era of ubiquitous spy cameras and advanced security systems that were seen as science fiction back then like Retinal and Fingerprint/Palmprint scanners. There was little of that advanced tech around in general for a Ninja in the game to worry about, unlike a modern game set today when everyone's running around with digital cameras, instant uploading to youtube, and just about anyone can afford gadgets that weren't even available in the 80s.

The book makes clear that some items are of poor availability and high cost, but spells out that the stuff I'm harping on -- motion detectors, invisible-light beams, infrared optics, and so on -- are plenty cheaper and quite available (and video cameras and burglar alarms even more so). That said, while you're saying the game treats retinal and fingerprint scanners like science fiction, I'm not seeing that tone; the book just mentions 'em while going on to spell out that "fooling the retina camera is simple" given the next step in technology. (Heck, a Wired Agent -- who, like I was just saying, can help along the Arts of Invisibility with gizmoteering skills and military skills and espionage skills -- can use his bionic eye to beat the retinal scanner and manipulate his vocal cords and fingertips to beat yet other scanners and still have a cybernetic part to spare; in fact, the book spells out exactly what such an eye is: "Designed for one, and only one, purpose. To get around retinal canera security devices.") Strikes me as no different than spelling out how nifty the Tempest Monitor is for someone looking to grab info, and then adds the obvious next step: "shielded anti-tempest machines are available and will be found in most high-budget security installations."

But I digress. The point is, I don't see how a DMA with two secondary skills was supposed to beat the '80s-era tech in the book all by himself, and so it doesn't bother me that yet other stuff would also be a problem.

That's because you're looking at it from the 'I just want to justify doing nothing but what the book says' standpoint, you interpret it from that framework instead of considering all angles.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I don't know, seems like you at least need the reminder that the books aren't stone tablets that one risks universal destruction if not followed to the letter in all things.

Again, feel free to post it in every comparison thread from here on out; I figured it was beyond obvious to mention that we can of course jettison the rules at will, and figured that was why you hadn't bothered doing it in previous threads; knock yourself out in days to come.

Again feel free to tell everyone that they're only allowed to go by the books because you deem it so because only what's written there matters and changing viewpoints and the like are irrelevant to you. That's certainly been your point here, singing 'lalala I don't want to think just follow the book instead'.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:That and the exaggerations you like to toss out to confuse the matter and skip addressing actual points are a waste of time spent typing. You really can't equate suggesting that the restrictions on Ninjitsu are too restrictive when it comes to making it only available to the Dedicated Martial Artist instead of available to the Worldly Martial Artist as well with Academy Officers starting out as Partial Conversion Borgs if they want to or whatever exaggeration you feel like making.

Actually, I think that's less of an exaggeration. At least an Academy Officer could eventually get bionic parts; the restrictions on Ninjitsu aren't open to ever getting bypassed, since they take the DMA limitation MUCH more seriously. For some reason, they really wanted to make Ninjitsu -- and Hwarang-Do, and Chi Hsuan Men, and so on -- exclusive to DMAs with two secondary skills.

No, YOU take the limitation much more seriously. Others see it as a 'that doesn't make any sense'. That Academy Officer is learning without much trouble how to fight with every weapon modern and ancient, pilot nearly everything, and more. What you really think it's easier to learn 70+ skills across a variety of fields than it is to learn a focused MA? Think again. When you look at how long it takes a Ninjitsu Master to train to become a 1st level expert he's taking way longer to learn a related set of skills than the Academy Officer learning a range of skills with little to no relation to one another for probably half of them.

Anyway, on the actual topic Ninjitsu is just as competitive as any other MA and can't really be said to be underpowered compared to other forms. The actual MA has no problems, it's simply suffering from being both ascribed a cost that's fairly excessive by taking up 2 forms and being limited only to the Dedicated Martial Artist which is a very underpowered OCC which is what is likely really being held against Ninjitsu. To take it strictly by the book you've only got one MA and only two secondary skills available to you meanwhile every other class with access to just one MA including those that compare fairly well in stats with Ninjitsu can have a range of skill programs and easily 40+ skills. So the MA itself isn't what's underpowered it's the OCC that it gets restricted to even though it isn't comparably so powerful that it would unbalance things since those other MA aren't considered so.

JuliusCreed wrote:Good Luck and Great Gaming!

Julius, that's a nice breakdown but you're missing a few important pieces. For example; just when each style reaches different Criticals and Knockout/Stun thresholds, skills, and just how many combat moves each style gets. Here's a link to my thread breaking down all the styles.

Mantisking wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:Good Luck and Great Gaming!

Julius, that's a nice breakdown but you're missing a few important pieces. For example; just when each style reaches different Criticals and Knockout/Stun thresholds, skills, and just how many combat moves each style gets. Here's a link to my thread breaking down all the styles.

Been through there before and I find it very comprehensive and helpful. Thanks for the add-on MK

Anyway, on the actual topic Ninjitsu is just as competitive as any other MA and can't really be said to be underpowered compared to other forms. The actual MA has no problems, it's simply suffering from being both ascribed a cost that's fairly excessive by taking up 2 forms and being limited only to the Dedicated Martial Artist which is a very underpowered OCC which is what is likely really being held against Ninjitsu. To take it strictly by the book you've only got one MA and only two secondary skills available to you meanwhile every other class with access to just one MA including those that compare fairly well in stats with Ninjitsu can have a range of skill programs and easily 40+ skills. So the MA itself isn't what's underpowered it's the OCC that it gets restricted to even though it isn't comparably so powerful that it would unbalance things since those other MA aren't considered so.

I agree with all of this.

Actually I don't agree with you on that, since while I dislike the idea of penalizing the Ninja in such a way he can sacrifice a MA power in exchange for a basic problem, which could include ones containing electrical and mechanical knowledge that would let one deal with such things.

I'm not seeing it; full-blown Electrical Engineering can let you deal with such things -- "can attempt to bypass security systems and burglar alarms at a -25%; if Surveillance Systems is also taken, then there is a +10% bonus instead" -- but (like Surveillance Systems itself, along with Disguise and Impersonation, and even brute-force Electronic Counter-Measures), it's not available through basic skill programs; the only Electrical skill available through such a program is the same "repair appliances and read schematics" one you can already get with a DMA's secondary skill. I'm not seeing how the limited Mechanical choices improve anything, either.

Also that's only your opinion as to what the purpose of the rule was, it's by no means the actual reason why the DMA is so improperly weighted down. In fact it could actually be because someone could take multiple MA and give up a number of MA powers and stack up on Basic Skill programs. Which would also explain the reduction from 3 forms down to 2; while I don't claim it to be the reason why it's possible in feedback they learned too many players were gaming the system taking a MA or two and selling off the powers for a lot of skill programs. Plenty of reasons other than 'Palladium wanted to intentionally hose a player of a DMA'.

I'm not weighing in on what the reason was; I'm merely saying the result was to cut off the DMA from the "bypass electronic surveillance" skills -- and from Plastic Surgery, and from the Military WPs, and from Supercomputers, and so on; for whatever reason, the powers that be meant to so limit the DMA.

No, YOU take the limitation much more seriously. Others see it as a 'that doesn't make any sense'.

No, I also see it as a 'that doesn't make any sense'.

What you really think it's easier to learn 70+ skills across a variety of fields than it is to learn a focused MA?

Well, yeah; that much makes sense to me, anyhow. I can learn skills across a variety of fields; various people have. To the best of my knowledge, I can't learn a focused MA that grants wacky super-powers; as far as I know, nobody has. You think you could learn Karumi-Jutsu to harmlessly fall 2000' at will in between executing 50' leaps? You think you could learn how to launch Negative Empty Chi attacks via telekinetic force from 30' away, in between firing up Body Chi for bursts of speed and strength that could routinely smash Olympic records? You think you could learn a kata that automatically deflects every incoming arrow and spear? Yeah, no.

Again feel free to tell everyone that they're only allowed to go by the books because you deem it so because only what's written there matters and changing viewpoints and the like are irrelevant to you. That's certainly been your point here, singing 'lalala I don't want to think just follow the book instead'.

Again, I find it hilarious that you've started up yet another thread based around the rules as written: "I tend to favor Tae Kwon Do and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu. They have equal attacks starting out, the character is as capable unarmed as armed, and the starting MA available to them are able to be used by both techniques without restriction unlike most others." Will anyone jump in to reply that such arts only start out with equal attacks if we don't ignore the rules, or that the weapon katas can be removed if the GM feels like it, or that the MA powers in question would be restricted if not for the pesky book? Will anyone post that their favorite pairing is Aikido and Tien-Hsueh, noting that we can of course disregard the part about DMAs not being allowed to take both?

Regularguy wrote:I'm not seeing it; full-blown Electrical Engineering can let you deal with such things -- "can attempt to bypass security systems and burglar alarms at a -25%; if Surveillance Systems is also taken, then there is a +10% bonus instead" -- but (like Surveillance Systems itself, along with Disguise and Impersonation, and even brute-force Electronic Counter-Measures), it's not available through basic skill programs; the only Electrical skill available through such a program is the same "repair appliances and read schematics" one you can already get with a DMA's secondary skill. I'm not seeing how the limited Mechanical choices improve anything, either.

Secondary skills are inferior to Scholastic/OCC-related skills and come with no bonuses other than possible IQ bonuses. It is true though that the skills best suited for dealing with a modern society are denied the DMA, which doesn't work with the nature of the Ninjitsu master and their society as they would have to adapt modern knowledge to be effective in a high-tech world. They simply can't fulfill contracts if they can't get around modern surveillance systems or get into a modern safe to acquire secret documents when all they've got are a couple secondary skills and maybe a basic program bought from sacrificing a MA power.

Regularguy wrote:I'm not weighing in on what the reason was; I'm merely saying the result was to cut off the DMA from the "bypass electronic surveillance" skills -- and from Plastic Surgery, and from the Military WPs, and from Supercomputers, and so on; for whatever reason, the powers that be meant to so limit the DMA.

Or they simply were in too much haste to put out the Revised book and didn't adjust the DMA accordingly after reducing the number of forms available. Much like the WMA compared to most of the other OCC that provide access to a dedicated MA comes up inferior with only a few extra MA powers as they gain levels maybe providing enough appeal to make someone find the class okay to take instead of say an Operative Agent.

Regularguy wrote:No, I also see it as a 'that doesn't make any sense'.

You don't, however, make any effort to change things until it does.

Regularguy wrote:

What you really think it's easier to learn 70+ skills across a variety of fields than it is to learn a focused MA?

Well, yeah; that much makes sense to me, anyhow. I can learn skills across a variety of fields; various people have. To the best of my knowledge, I can't learn a focused MA that grants wacky super-powers; as far as I know, nobody has. You think you could learn Karumi-Jutsu to harmlessly fall 2000' at will in between executing 50' leaps? You think you could learn how to launch Negative Empty Chi attacks via telekinetic force from 30' away, in between firing up Body Chi for bursts of speed and strength that could routinely smash Olympic records? You think you could learn a kata that automatically deflects every incoming arrow and spear? Yeah, no.

You THINK you could, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone you can point to who knows as many diverse and unrelated things as an Operative Agent or Academy Officer could pull off short of Da Vinci. You also can't go involving the real world in the argument when it comes to the Martial Arts powers since there is no real world involvement possible and one must go by the book. These things can be learned, and can be learned very quickly depending on how active a PC is in gaining experience. They're also fairly limited and a PC is learning these powers related to their Martial art so they're an extension of it not unrelated. So the MA learning these things has more justifying his ease in learning them than the guy learning basket weaving, every weapon known to man, every vehicle known to man, cooking, advanced Mathematics, and a half-dozen unrelated languages and more.

Regularguy wrote:

Again feel free to tell everyone that they're only allowed to go by the books because you deem it so because only what's written there matters and changing viewpoints and the like are irrelevant to you. That's certainly been your point here, singing 'lalala I don't want to think just follow the book instead'.

Again, I find it hilarious that you've started up yet another thread based around the rules as written: "I tend to favor Tae Kwon Do and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu. They have equal attacks starting out, the character is as capable unarmed as armed, and the starting MA available to them are able to be used by both techniques without restriction unlike most others." Will anyone jump in to reply that such arts only start out with equal attacks if we don't ignore the rules, or that the weapon katas can be removed if the GM feels like it, or that the MA powers in question would be restricted if not for the pesky book? Will anyone post that their favorite pairing is Aikido and Tien-Hsueh, noting that we can of course disregard the part about DMAs not being allowed to take both?

I find it hilarious that you keep saying something like that repeatedly when they aren't related. A discussion as to why someone likes something by definition requires them to actually discuss it as it's written and would only have one look like an idiot spouting stuff completely unrelated to the book. That is not the same thing as discussing what one sees as a problem and how they would correct it at which point someone can go 'well I think X should be available to it, as I always run it like that'. For someone who's so devoted to the books one would think you'd realize that.

No, I also see it as a 'that doesn't make any sense'.

You don't, however, make any effort to change things until it does.

Precisely. My idea of "thinking outside the box" involves trying to get the desired result within the rules as written. You and I both look at a "ninja" who can't get around modern (or '80s-era) surveillance systems; you ignore the rules you don't like by rejecting 'em, I ignore 'em to focus on different ones. You talk about changing the rules to allow WMAs to get Ninjitsu along with tech savvy; I talk about using the rules to make a WMA who acts like a tech-savvy ninja. I'd rather find a way to make it look like a duck and quack like a duck instead of simply declaring "screw this, let's just declare a duck."

Or, for that matter, we could give the DMA a (book-legal) contact to help with the tech work. Or we could use the (book-legal) option of sacrificing various skills from an HU-style Physical Training character to acquire Ninjitsu: "This effectively makes him a Dedicated Martial Artist", we're told -- but, of course, with a crucial difference. Or -- well, look, we could come up with all sorts of outside-the-box ideas within the rules; we could also jump straight to discarding the rules instead, but why bother?

You THINK you could, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone you can point to who knows as many diverse and unrelated things as an Operative Agent or Academy Officer could pull off short of Da Vinci. You also can't go involving the real world in the argument when it comes to the Martial Arts powers since there is no real world involvement possible and one must go by the book. These things can be learned, and can be learned very quickly depending on how active a PC is in gaining experience.

But that cuts both ways; never mind involving the real world, since -- by the book -- being an Academy Officer really does involve learning as many diverse and unrelated things as you mention. And being an Operative likewise really does involve learning that stuff very quickly, and learning a variety of mystical powers to boot. In my opinion, "one must go by the book" when it comes to accepting both types of implausibilities.

I find it hilarious that you keep saying something like that repeatedly when they aren't related. A discussion as to why someone likes something by definition requires them to actually discuss it as it's written and would only have one look like an idiot spouting stuff completely unrelated to the book. That is not the same thing as discussing what one sees as a problem and how they would correct it

But the OP here didn't simply kick off the latter type of discussion; he stacked up various martial arts by the numbers, compared them from a number of standpoints, and concluded that "In the end, yes Ninjutsu has its downside, but I see a lot of an upside to it as well." And while he declared in a quick aside that the skill problem is easily remedied with simple house rulings, he immediately ended that sentence by adding that in his opinion it's also easily remedied by trading in a power or two for skill programs.

And, as always, I have no problem with a by-the-book comparison involving quick mention of the obvious fact (a) that house rules can of course make any by-the-book comparison irrelevant (b) and then swiftly moving on; I wouldn't mind someone doing it in every thread; I figure it goes without saying, it's true by definition, it's the inside-the-rules stuff that calls for discussion since "just change the rules" is already complete in itself -- but, hey, if it's crucial to you, then by all means spell out at length that doing anything lets you do anything.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You don't, however, make any effort to change things until it does.

Precisely. My idea of "thinking outside the box" involves trying to get the desired result within the rules as written. You and I both look at a "ninja" who can't get around modern (or '80s-era) surveillance systems; you ignore the rules you don't like by rejecting 'em, I ignore 'em to focus on different ones. You talk about changing the rules to allow WMAs to get Ninjitsu along with tech savvy; I talk about using the rules to make a WMA who acts like a tech-savvy ninja. I'd rather find a way to make it look like a duck and quack like a duck instead of simply declaring "screw this, let's just declare a duck."

Or, for that matter, we could give the DMA a (book-legal) contact to help with the tech work. Or we could use the (book-legal) option of sacrificing various skills from an HU-style Physical Training character to acquire Ninjitsu: "This effectively makes him a Dedicated Martial Artist", we're told -- but, of course, with a crucial difference. Or -- well, look, we could come up with all sorts of outside-the-box ideas within the rules; we could also jump straight to discarding the rules instead, but why bother?

You're not thinking outside the box when all your thinking is done inside the box, plus the entire point of the 'if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it's a duck' is that it IS a duck, not someone dressed up like a duck. A DMA that looks like but actually isn't tech-savvy isn't tech-savvy. Then again you seem to be incapable of handling differing degrees of variation, you are completely black and white such that anything not as you see the book written is equally outrageous. The idea of a DMA having even a single Skill program available to him whether it be a Basic one or a Gizmoteer one is treated with exaggerated rejection as if someone were suggesting the class should have every Gizmoteer program and all Martial Arts powers. So please try and avoid the overhyped exaggerations because while you seem to think so suggesting the DMA have access to a skill program is not some horribly outrageous 'Let's just ignore all the rules!' effort you're making it out to be.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You THINK you could, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone you can point to who knows as many diverse and unrelated things as an Operative Agent or Academy Officer could pull off short of Da Vinci. You also can't go involving the real world in the argument when it comes to the Martial Arts powers since there is no real world involvement possible and one must go by the book. These things can be learned, and can be learned very quickly depending on how active a PC is in gaining experience.

But that cuts both ways; never mind involving the real world, since -- by the book -- being an Academy Officer really does involve learning as many diverse and unrelated things as you mention. And being an Operative likewise really does involve learning that stuff very quickly, and learning a variety of mystical powers to boot. In my opinion, "one must go by the book" when it comes to accepting both types of implausibilities.

No, you cherry pick things, you claimed how it was possible in RL when it wasn't to have such skills then tried to claim some kind of RL basis for the un-real MA powers for learning them. If you accept the implausibility of the Academy Officer or Operative Agent learning such diverse and unrelated skills when one can't in RL (and certainly not in the numbers available in the game) then you can't argue it to be implausible for a DMA to be incapable of learning a skill program or two and claim his MA powers are so counter to education and learning these related fields for the DMA especially when if that were the case then the Operative Agent couldn't have a formal MA form since he's got nearly twice the skill programs of a WMA even when they both have the same MA.

[/quote]I find it hilarious that you keep saying something like that repeatedly when they aren't related. A discussion as to why someone likes something by definition requires them to actually discuss it as it's written and would only have one look like an idiot spouting stuff completely unrelated to the book. That is not the same thing as discussing what one sees as a problem and how they would correct it[/quote]

But the OP here didn't simply kick off the latter type of discussion; he stacked up various martial arts by the numbers, compared them from a number of standpoints, and concluded that "In the end, yes Ninjutsu has its downside, but I see a lot of an upside to it as well." And while he declared in a quick aside that the skill problem is easily remedied with simple house rulings, he immediately ended that sentence by adding that in his opinion it's also easily remedied by trading in a power or two for skill programs.

And, as always, I have no problem with a by-the-book comparison involving quick mention of the obvious fact (a) that house rules can of course make any by-the-book comparison irrelevant (b) and then swiftly moving on; I wouldn't mind someone doing it in every thread; I figure it goes without saying, it's true by definition, it's the inside-the-rules stuff that calls for discussion since "just change the rules" is already complete in itself -- but, hey, if it's crucial to you, then by all means spell out at length that doing anything lets you do anything.[/quote]

Strange, seems like you're the one who felt it essential to jump in and repeat ad nauseum how 'No everything has to be done by the rules, don't bring up anything else!' anytime someone suggests anything that might modify or reject a single rule. 'No that's impossible you can't do that!' seems to be all you keep saying, and anyone bringing up the slightest rules change or dismissal you jump on to declare how that's just so wrong and equate it erroneously with acting as if no rules exist at all. As I've already noted elsewhere the world isn't going to end if your bible isn't adhered to as strictly as you think it ought to be, and discussing or suggesting things that step a little outside the book isn't a heresy that must be squashed lest people think for themselves and act to change things that make no sense to something that does.

RGG wrote:Honestly your character(s) are pretty one dimensional if your only focusing on the martial aspect.
You also need to remember the other skills that round out the character. Martial arts is nothing compared to many a gun/explosive toting character in the palladium game system. You can't dodge what goes boom!

Though I see your point, the death blow is an advantage that goes straight to health (damage) and many characters can do this with bonuses or the straight die roll. I think the odds are fair... of course you still have to try and hit the juicer... that is a bit more challenging in melee.

This is a pretty minor peeve you have.

The DMA is definitely over-specialized, makes it even worse for a character like the Ninjutsu master since the DMA only has one MA unlike most others that have two and could possibly have enough Martial Arts powers that they could afford to sacrifice one without hindering the core of the MA. Sticking a Ninja where it ends up having to sacrifice a MA power that helps define being a ninja just to demonstrate it's got some modern skills really hurts playing that ninja.

End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

Definitely this. We won't see it but definitely needs it to clean up the inequities. Just think, a Heroes unlimited Physical Training character could take Ninjitsu with suitable skill expenditures but with decent rolls for the Education table could be in possession of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering programs plus some of those serious Physical Training bonuses and all the Ninjitsu MA available.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

Definitely this. We won't see it but definitely needs it to clean up the inequities. Just think, a Heroes unlimited Physical Training character could take Ninjitsu with suitable skill expenditures but with decent rolls for the Education table could be in possession of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering programs plus some of those serious Physical Training bonuses and all the Ninjitsu MA available.

SUPER-NEEEENJA!!!!!

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

Definitely this. We won't see it but definitely needs it to clean up the inequities. Just think, a Heroes unlimited Physical Training character could take Ninjitsu with suitable skill expenditures but with decent rolls for the Education table could be in possession of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering programs plus some of those serious Physical Training bonuses and all the Ninjitsu MA available.

SUPER-NEEEENJA!!!!!

*laughs and nods* Imagine said Physical Training Ninja with the Mega-Hero option, even with just a minor mega-power the bonuses in other areas would make a Ninja suitable for more than a few Japanese anime.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

Definitely this. We won't see it but definitely needs it to clean up the inequities. Just think, a Heroes unlimited Physical Training character could take Ninjitsu with suitable skill expenditures but with decent rolls for the Education table could be in possession of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering programs plus some of those serious Physical Training bonuses and all the Ninjitsu MA available.

SUPER-NEEEENJA!!!!!

*laughs and nods* Imagine said Physical Training Ninja with the Mega-Hero option, even with just a minor mega-power the bonuses in other areas would make a Ninja suitable for more than a few Japanese anime.

UBER-SUPER-NEEEENJA!

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:SUPER-NEEEENJA!!!!!

*laughs and nods* Imagine said Physical Training Ninja with the Mega-Hero option, even with just a minor mega-power the bonuses in other areas would make a Ninja suitable for more than a few Japanese anime.

UBER-SUPER-NEEEENJA!

Hmmm, now I'm tempted to making up a Mega-hero Physical Training Ninja for the fun of it, and hey he'll be completely book legal too!

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:SUPER-NEEEENJA!!!!!

*laughs and nods* Imagine said Physical Training Ninja with the Mega-Hero option, even with just a minor mega-power the bonuses in other areas would make a Ninja suitable for more than a few Japanese anime.

UBER-SUPER-NEEEENJA!

Hmmm, now I'm tempted to making up a Mega-hero Physical Training Ninja for the fun of it, and hey he'll be completely book legal too!

BOOK LEGAL UBER-SUPER-NEEEENJA!

You're not thinking outside the box when all your thinking is done inside the box

Sure you are. Think of, say, MacGyver: the whole point is that he thinks outside the box by using whatever is available. He'll be in a tight spot, with neither visible weapons nor obvious tools at hand, and solve the problem du jour with little more than a bag of groceries or the contents of a woman's purse. He'll use a fire extinguisher for everything except extinguishing fires, will use cleaning supplies for everything except cleaning, will use light bulbs not to cast light, will use the springs of a cot not to support a man's weight, will use shoestrings and refrigerator magnets and chewing-gum wrappers for uses far removed from shoes or refrigerators or chewing gum -- and so on and so on.

When he's cornered in a kitchen with no gun, it makes perfect sense to call it "thinking outside the box" when he solves the problem with little more than alcohol and a stove -- maybe spreading a lot of cooking oil on the floor while using pots and pans atop swiftly melting ice for a clattering distraction to boot. Your alternative is the equivalent of the writers instead saying "so he's cornered in a kitchen, and, uh, suddenly a revolver materializes out of thin air."

It was "thinking outside the box" when the Apollo 13's problems get fixed with a sock. Why a sock? Because that's what they had to work with. It was "thinking outside the box" when the folks who couldn't convict Al Capone for anything else decided to go after him for tax evasion. It was "thinking outside the box" when desperate folks under siege were down to one cow and not much grain -- and decided, hey, let's stuff the cow with the grain and catapult it over the walls, to make it look like we've got food to waste showing off.

I look at someone Who Can Be Killed By No Man and think, okay, maybe a woman or a small child or a big wolf could swing it. You think, screw that, how about just having a man kill him anyway?

plus the entire point of the 'if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it's a duck' is that it IS a duck, not someone dressed up like a duck.

Not if the entire point is to come up with something that can do what a duck would. If you're in a situation where you need something that quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it doesn't matter whether you supply a duck or something that merely quacks and looks like one.

If you want someone who looks like a ninja and fights like a ninja and stealths around like a ninja but also deals with modern-day problems -- well, as I've said, I'm fine with a book-legal Worldly Martial Artist who combines a comparable martial art with a gizmoteering program. And as I've said, I'm also fine with using a book-legal Physical Training character who combines Ninjitsu with assorted HU skills. And as I've also also said, I'm also fine with simply using book-legal DMAs who have useful contacts at their disposal; as it happens, that's pretty much spelled out as working for the "typical White Moth ninja" in the ADVENTURES section (since their organization sensibly draws on the benefits of Blanket Infiltration, sure as they've got plenty of up-to-date tech on hand). Why jettison the rules just to get a duck, when there are so many book-legal ways to get something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck?

So please try and avoid the overhyped exaggerations because while you seem to think so suggesting the DMA have access to a skill program is not some horribly outrageous 'Let's just ignore all the rules!' effort you're making it out to be.

It's the "let's just ignore rules when we feel like it" effort. Which, of course, is always an option; I just think it's entirely too tempting, since of course what I propose will always seem reasonable to me. If I instead simply work with what I'm given, then I don't need to worry that I might be seeing unreasonable changes as reasonable ones.

Strange, seems like you're the one who felt it essential to jump in and repeat ad nauseum how 'No everything has to be done by the rules, don't bring up anything else!' anytime someone suggests anything that might modify or reject a single rule. 'No that's impossible you can't do that!' seems to be all you keep saying, and anyone bringing up the slightest rules change or dismissal you jump on to declare how that's just so wrong and equate it erroneously with acting as if no rules exist at all. As I've already noted elsewhere the world isn't going to end if your bible isn't adhered to as strictly as you think it ought to be, and discussing or suggesting things that step a little outside the book isn't a heresy that must be squashed lest people think for themselves and act to change things that make no sense to something that does.

I'd rather act to find solutions by working with what we're given. No, the world isn't going to end if we ignore the rules whenever we feel like it -- but why bother if we can do it within the rules? Why ponder whether a given change is reasonable or unreasonable if we don't need to make a change at all?

No, you cherry pick things, you claimed how it was possible in RL when it wasn't to have such skills then tried to claim some kind of RL basis for the un-real MA powers for learning them.

I'm afraid you've got that exactly backwards.

If you accept the implausibility of the Academy Officer or Operative Agent learning such diverse and unrelated skills when one can't in RL (and certainly not in the numbers available in the game) then you can't argue it to be implausible for a DMA to be incapable of learning a skill program or two

For multiple reasons, that's not what I've been claiming.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You're not thinking outside the box when all your thinking is done inside the box

Sure you are. Think of, say, MacGyver: the whole point is that he thinks outside the box by using whatever is available. He'll be in a tight spot, with neither visible weapons nor obvious tools at hand, and solve the problem du jour with little more than a bag of groceries or the contents of a woman's purse. He'll use a fire extinguisher for everything except extinguishing fires, will use cleaning supplies for everything except cleaning, will use light bulbs not to cast light, will use the springs of a cot not to support a man's weight, will use shoestrings and refrigerator magnets and chewing-gum wrappers for uses far removed from shoes or refrigerators or chewing gum -- and so on and so on.

When he's cornered in a kitchen with no gun, it makes perfect sense to call it "thinking outside the box" when he solves the problem with little more than alcohol and a stove -- maybe spreading a lot of cooking oil on the floor while using pots and pans atop swiftly melting ice for a clattering distraction to boot. Your alternative is the equivalent of the writers instead saying "so he's cornered in a kitchen, and, uh, suddenly a revolver materializes out of thin air."

It was "thinking outside the box" when the Apollo 13's problems get fixed with a sock. Why a sock? Because that's what they had to work with. It was "thinking outside the box" when the folks who couldn't convict Al Capone for anything else decided to go after him for tax evasion. It was "thinking outside the box" when desperate folks under siege were down to one cow and not much grain -- and decided, hey, let's stuff the cow with the grain and catapult it over the walls, to make it look like we've got food to waste showing off.

I look at someone Who Can Be Killed By No Man and think, okay, maybe a woman or a small child or a big wolf could swing it. You think, screw that, how about just having a man kill him anyway?

Or as Buffy realized 'no weapon forged by man isn't literal it's just a description that the weapons known at the time couldn't kill it', at which point she acquired a rocket launcher and that was all she wrote. 'Someone who can be killed by no man' depending on the area and location can easily just mean the men in the area just didn't have what it takes to win the fight rather than a literal invulnerability to men.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:plus the entire point of the 'if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it's a duck' is that it IS a duck, not someone dressed up like a duck.

Not if the entire point is to come up with something that can do what a duck would. If you're in a situation where you need something that quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it doesn't matter whether you supply a duck or something that merely quacks and looks like one.

If you want someone who looks like a ninja and fights like a ninja and stealths around like a ninja but also deals with modern-day problems -- well, as I've said, I'm fine with a book-legal Worldly Martial Artist who combines a comparable martial art with a gizmoteering program. And as I've said, I'm also fine with using a book-legal Physical Training character who combines Ninjitsu with assorted HU skills. And as I've also also said, I'm also fine with simply using book-legal DMAs who have useful contacts at their disposal; as it happens, that's pretty much spelled out as working for the "typical White Moth ninja" in the ADVENTURES section (since their organization sensibly draws on the benefits of Blanket Infiltration, sure as they've got plenty of up-to-date tech on hand). Why jettison the rules just to get a duck, when there are so many book-legal ways to get something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck?

Because when someone wants a duck they want a duck, not to settle for 'well it's almost a duck'. If you want a ninja you want a ninja with all the perks and penalties rather than to try and fake it but knowing 'it's just not the same'. You also really miss my point with the example of the Physical Training character that clearly the DMA class needs revised because you can have these other DMA's that can have dozens of skills while having the same MA selections as the DMA yet the DMA only gets two secondary skills which simply isn't logical. Look at the Wai Chia Wu Shih OCC in Mystic China, access to two MA, one of which can be the exclusive MA Tien Hsueh, and two dozen skills 19 of them being scholastic/OCC skills. Totally contradicts the DMA OCC which with the same two MA would only have 2 secondary skills. Clearly rigidly holding to the write-up for the DMA with its overly restrictive layout is an error.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:So please try and avoid the overhyped exaggerations because while you seem to think so suggesting the DMA have access to a skill program is not some horribly outrageous 'Let's just ignore all the rules!' effort you're making it out to be.

It's the "let's just ignore rules when we feel like it" effort. Which, of course, is always an option; I just think it's entirely too tempting, since of course what I propose will always seem reasonable to me. If I instead simply work with what I'm given, then I don't need to worry that I might be seeing unreasonable changes as reasonable ones.

Or you could just be treating completely reasonable changes as unreasonable rather than bother thinking them over.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Strange, seems like you're the one who felt it essential to jump in and repeat ad nauseum how 'No everything has to be done by the rules, don't bring up anything else!' anytime someone suggests anything that might modify or reject a single rule. 'No that's impossible you can't do that!' seems to be all you keep saying, and anyone bringing up the slightest rules change or dismissal you jump on to declare how that's just so wrong and equate it erroneously with acting as if no rules exist at all. As I've already noted elsewhere the world isn't going to end if your bible isn't adhered to as strictly as you think it ought to be, and discussing or suggesting things that step a little outside the book isn't a heresy that must be squashed lest people think for themselves and act to change things that make no sense to something that does.

I'd rather act to find solutions by working with what we're given. No, the world isn't going to end if we ignore the rules whenever we feel like it -- but why bother if we can do it within the rules? Why ponder whether a given change is reasonable or unreasonable if we don't need to make a change at all?

Except that there is a change needed, since it can't be done in the rules and the class obviously doesn't work as written when you can see every other example of a DMA class having far more skills available and without sacrificing MA powers. When the DMA had 3 MA available it was understandable that a player might spend some MA to load up on skills to be more competitive with the other OCC and that was taken into account for the low skill count available. But when it was revised and reduced to 2 MA available the available skills weren't revised to account for this.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:If you accept the implausibility of the Academy Officer or Operative Agent learning such diverse and unrelated skills when one can't in RL (and certainly not in the numbers available in the game) then you can't argue it to be implausible for a DMA to be incapable of learning a skill program or two

For multiple reasons, that's not what I've been claiming.

Except that is what you've been claiming, you've been repeatedly trying to justify the DMA write-up rather than just accept that it's defective and needed reworked when they revised the RPG. There are even multiple examples of other DMA with multiple skills available including scholastic level so clearly the idea that they're just too busy learning these skills to learn anything else is wrong. The Physical Training character can even be a doctorate level engineer or medical doctor while learning to be a Ninjutsu or other MA master. Makes zero sense that the DMA wouldn't manage to learn more than 2 secondary skills in comparison when having the same MA.

Or as Buffy realized 'no weapon forged by man isn't literal it's just a description that the weapons known at the time couldn't kill it', at which point she acquired a rocket launcher and that was all she wrote

Are you sure? Or was it that such a weapon wasn't, y'know, forged by a man?

Because when someone wants a duck they want a duck, not to settle for 'well it's almost a duck'. If you want a ninja you want a ninja with all the perks and penalties rather than to try and fake it but knowing 'it's just not the same'

How is it "just not the same"? If I'm watching a movie with a black-clad martial artist who invisibly stealths around in between landing kinfe-hand blows and kick attacks while leaping and cartwheeling and backflipping all over the place whenever he isn't messing folks up with his shikomi-zue and his manriki-gusari, I'm only thinking "it's just not the same" if I can't do that in N&SS. I don't care that I can't do it with a Private Eye; I merely care whether I can do it, period.

Imagine you want to play a One Shot One Kill character who can use ordinary found items -- pencils, t-shirts, bottle of beer, you name it -- as improvised weapons, sure as he can go for the jugular with swords or spears or paired knives or throwing axes or whatever. For that matter, imagine you want him to start play with a bionic eye that can beat retinal scanners easy as his larynx manipulator lets him fake out voice IDs sure as his cyberdisguise can beat fingerprint checks. Do you care that you can't build him as an Academy Officer? Or do you merely care that you can build him as a Wired Agent?

You also really miss my point with the example of the Physical Training character that clearly the DMA class needs revised because you can have these other DMA's that can have dozens of skills while having the same MA selections as the DMA yet the DMA only gets two secondary skills which simply isn't logical. Look at the Wai Chia Wu Shih OCC in Mystic China, access to two MA, one of which can be the exclusive MA Tien Hsueh, and two dozen skills 19 of them being scholastic/OCC skills. Totally contradicts the DMA OCC which with the same two MA would only have 2 secondary skills. Clearly rigidly holding to the write-up for the DMA with its overly restrictive layout is an error.

I'm not sure you need to go into MC to make that point; doesn't N&SS already limit the DMA to a single martial art if he goes the exclusive route? So either you go "DMA with Tien-Hsueh and two secondary skills" -- or you go "Commando Mercenary with Tien-Hsueh and six secondary skills, plus five skill programs". Or you go "DMA with Aikido and two secondary skills" -- or you go "Thief (Free Agent) with Aikido and four secondary skills, plus four skill programs". If that's already in effect in N&SS itself, then why assume the MC book retroactively makes it illogical? Why not assume that was the logic from the start, long before the N&SS book factored in HU types?

Or you could just be treating completely reasonable changes as unreasonable rather than bother thinking them over.

But if I can get the results I want within the rules, why bother with either? Especially since I'm biased in favor of thinking changes I see as reasonable are reasonable?

Except that there is a change needed, since it can't be done in the rules and the class obviously doesn't work as written when you can see every other example of a DMA class having far more skills available and without sacrificing MA powers.

What, precisely, are you saying can't be done in the rules?

clearly the idea that they're just too busy learning these skills to learn anything else is wrong. The Physical Training character can even be a doctorate level engineer or medical doctor while learning to be a Ninjutsu or other MA master. Makes zero sense that the DMA wouldn't manage to learn more than 2 secondary skills in comparison when having the same MA.

I don't see it that way. For one thing, I see it like this: if you want a doctorate-level engineer who learns Ninjitsu, then you shouldn't go with the DMA; you should go with a PT. And if you want a guy who combines Tai Chi with Snake Style Kung Fu, then you shouldn't go with the PT; you should go with the DMA. If you only want one Cyber-Disguise on top of three Espionage programs and a Military program -- well, look, you could do it with a Cyber Agent, but you could just as easily do it and pick up gizmoteering skills as a Gadgeteer who learns an over-the-top martial art to boot. That doesn't make the Cyber Agent redundant; it's just that you should only take one if you want to start play with a lot of cybernetics -- in which case, you of course shouldn't go with the Gadgeteer.

While thinking this over I realized the main problem Ninjitsu has is that it's an OCC treated as a Martial Art. You've a raft of skills and material with the OCC well beyond just combat techniques and MA specific special skills like Atemi or Arts of Invisibility. The more OCC-related material needs separated from the purely martial aspect of the Ninja. You would then have the OCC you take up that gives exclusive (or at least easier) access to the martial art of Ninjitsu rather than the overpriced and thereby more limited MA as it's written now.

Nightmask wrote:While thinking this over I realized the main problem Ninjitsu has is that it's an OCC treated as a Martial Art. You've a raft of skills and material with the OCC well beyond just combat techniques and MA specific special skills like Atemi or Arts of Invisibility. The more OCC-related material needs separated from the purely martial aspect of the Ninja. You would then have the OCC you take up that gives exclusive (or at least easier) access to the martial art of Ninjitsu rather than the overpriced and thereby more limited MA as it's written now.

Well said

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

I'm working on it, s..l..o..w..l..y, but I'm trying. I've been making revision notes for months, but I'm afraid I'm not a terribly prolific writer. I'm lucky if I get in 4 hours of writing a week.

Mercdog wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

I'm working on it, s..l..o..w..l..y, but I'm trying. I've been making revision notes for months, but I'm afraid I'm not a terribly prolific writer. I'm lucky if I get in 4 hours of writing a week.

Wellit;s really just rules and combat system that needs the update/revision. N&SS as everyone knows has no actual setting per se

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

I'm working on it, s..l..o..w..l..y, but I'm trying. I've been making revision notes for months, but I'm afraid I'm not a terribly prolific writer. I'm lucky if I get in 4 hours of writing a week.

Wellit;s really just rules and combat system that needs the update/revision. N&SS as everyone knows has no actual setting per se

Well, that's pretty much what I'm trying to do, though I do want to expand on some things. Of course, now that there are murmurs of a possible 'streamlining' of the PB rules system, I'm wondering if I should even bother. (Second time that's happened. I decide I want to try my hand at doing some writing for a game, and they up and change the rules on me.
Annoying. )

Ahh Heck. I've got nothin' better to do. May as well keep at it.

Mercdog wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:

jaymz wrote:End result - The game needs a major/serious revision and update.

I'm working on it, s..l..o..w..l..y, but I'm trying. I've been making revision notes for months, but I'm afraid I'm not a terribly prolific writer. I'm lucky if I get in 4 hours of writing a week.

Wellit;s really just rules and combat system that needs the update/revision. N&SS as everyone knows has no actual setting per se

Well, that's pretty much what I'm trying to do, though I do want to expand on some things. Of course, now that there are murmurs of a possible 'streamlining' of the PB rules system, I'm wondering if I should even bother. (Second time that's happened. I decide I want to try my hand at doing some writing for a game, and they up and change the rules on me.
Annoying. )

Ahh Heck. I've got nothin' better to do. May as well keep at it.

I look at N&SS that NEEDS a more comlpex system over everything else because of the focus on HTH combat, I say have at 'er.