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Ok i heard the complaints about it ,so how would you fix it

1. Scrap the armor restrictions.

2. There are too many "All or Nothing" spells.
There should be some penalties for targets that successfully make their savings throws, at least in a lot of cases.
For example, Mindshatter is a 11th level spell that costs 130 PPE, AND it takes 3 attacks to cast.
And if the target has a good save bonus (or simply lucks out), nothing at all happens to him.
Either the character is a complete vegetable, or he's completely spiffy.
How about he loses an attack, and maybe suffers some combat penalties if he makes the save?

3. Mages should, as a general rule, need to use both gestures and words in order to cast spells.
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without gestures (perhaps this skill should kick in automatically at high level).
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without words.
And there should be an explanation as to why, in each case.

4. The interaction between mages and cybernetics should be explored and explained.

5. Magic should not be able to beat tech at its own game.
A magically-created particle beam should NOT be more powerful than the tech version.

6. There need to be rules for disrupting ANY action that takes more than 2 attacks to complete. There should be a set of specific criteria that are met in order for there to be a threat of disrupting the action, and there should be a way for mages to attempt to keep from being disrupted (even if a specific skill is required to be taken).

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Scrap the armor restrictions.

2. There are too many "All or Nothing" spells.
There should be some penalties for targets that successfully make their savings throws, at least in a lot of cases.
For example, Mindshatter is a 11th level spell that costs 130 PPE, AND it takes 3 attacks to cast.
And if the target has a good save bonus (or simply lucks out), nothing at all happens to him.
Either the character is a complete vegetable, or he's completely spiffy.
How about he loses an attack, and maybe suffers some combat penalties if he makes the save?

3. Mages should, as a general rule, need to use both gestures and words in order to cast spells.
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without gestures (perhaps this skill should kick in automatically at high level).
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without words.
And there should be an explanation as to why, in each case.

4. The interaction between mages and cybernetics should be explored and explained.

5. Magic should not be able to beat tech at its own game.
A magically-created particle beam should NOT be more powerful than the tech version.

6. There need to be rules for disrupting ANY action that takes more than 2 attacks to complete. There should be a set of specific criteria that are met in order for there to be a threat of disrupting the action, and there should be a way for mages to attempt to keep from being disrupted (even if a specific skill is required to be taken).

I disagree with the scrapping the armor restrictions, mainly because it makes it too easy then. I'd allow a mage to take skill proficiency in body armor, etc. but at early stages it imposes certain penalties to their spell casting. Other than that I find myself in complete agreement w/you. Rifts spells should definitely have the save for 1/2 damage or other possibilities attached to them, however if the character saves completely then they should get to shrug the effects off.

Nah, have to agree with the OP, get rid of the Armour penalties.

Also have differing save throws would be good, currently all use PE bonus to save vs, some really should use ME sometimes.

Use the PPE Channeling rules and Magic Foci (both from Rifter articles) along with higher ppe reserve numbers for all mages.

To me that would more or less fix the major issues I myself have with the magic system.

keir451 wrote:I disagree with the scrapping the armor restrictions, mainly because it makes it too easy then. I'd allow a mage to take skill proficiency in body armor, etc. but at early stages it imposes certain penalties to their spell casting.

My main issues are that it doesn't make sense, and it's a big cliche.
If I want to give my mages a hard time, I'll break their legs.
And I'll do it plausibly.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

keir451 wrote:I disagree with the scrapping the armor restrictions, mainly because it makes it too easy then. I'd allow a mage to take skill proficiency in body armor, etc. but at early stages it imposes certain penalties to their spell casting.

My main issues are that it doesn't make sense, and it's a big cliche.
If I want to give my mages a hard time, I'll break their legs.
And I'll do it plausibly.

/agreed

You can pretty much get just as good mdc armor but the current armor restrictions makes it less likely for certain concepts and designs of character. I'ts not that big of a deal i don't think to let it slide. Or even better is have say multiple options of limitations and you have to choose one.

How does the UWW Marine Magic Specialist use enviro armor?

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Scrap the armor restrictions.

2. There are too many "All or Nothing" spells.
There should be some penalties for targets that successfully make their savings throws, at least in a lot of cases.
For example, Mindshatter is a 11th level spell that costs 130 PPE, AND it takes 3 attacks to cast.
And if the target has a good save bonus (or simply lucks out), nothing at all happens to him.
Either the character is a complete vegetable, or he's completely spiffy.
How about he loses an attack, and maybe suffers some combat penalties if he makes the save?

3. Mages should, as a general rule, need to use both gestures and words in order to cast spells.
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without gestures (perhaps this skill should kick in automatically at high level).
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without words.
And there should be an explanation as to why, in each case.

4. The interaction between mages and cybernetics should be explored and explained.

5. Magic should not be able to beat tech at its own game.
A magically-created particle beam should NOT be more powerful than the tech version.

6. There need to be rules for disrupting ANY action that takes more than 2 attacks to complete. There should be a set of specific criteria that are met in order for there to be a threat of disrupting the action, and there should be a way for mages to attempt to keep from being disrupted (even if a specific skill is required to be taken).

1) not completely nixing all of them.

2) agrees in the principle

3) disagrees with the have to need gestures to cast. There is a skill in rifts Underseas that lets mages cast w/o speaking for a double casting time penalty. there is a magical Proficiency that lets a mage cast normally w/o speaking in one of the rifters.

4) I think they did this in one of the tolkeen wars books (or that might of been how the cs uses cybernetics on mages.)

5) The magic in the books is nerfed already. Partly by being a linear progression in stead of a logarithmic progression.
ME and IQ should have some affect (bad and good) on the effects of the spells like leveling does.
While at lower levels the mages should not be able to out do tech on tech ideas. The higher the level of exp., the greater the effect the magic should have, or the less power it costs to make said magic.

6) agrees, for any and ALL attacks that takes 2 or more APM to complete. Like a power punch or a greater then L5 spell casting.
note: in rifter 9 "world warriors" article has the h2h skill 'anticipation' where the pugilist can make a disruptive attack on their opponent, even if w/o init.

After RUE dropped the casting time for magic significantly, I'm mostly happy with the spellcasting system. My main complaints are the the way spell duration scales with level really screws up starting Ley Line Walkers, and the extreme limitations on magic item creation.

Regarding the armor restrictions, I agree with the idea of them, but with the restrictions changing with each new publication, it's kind of hard to enforce. I think the easiest thing to say is that it can't be full EBA unless it's magical. Sure, your mage can salvage CS Heavy BA, but he's going to need to open it up by not wearing gauntlets or closing the helmet or somesuch.

Proseksword wrote:snip... and the extreme limitations on magic item creation.
...snip

The only extreme limitations on magic item creation that I can see, in RUE, are the TW item creation rules. These severely curtail the GM's involvement in the TW item creation process.

The ways to make normal magic items are unchanged with RUE.
-spend a lot of time (month to years) into research and enchantment into making the item.
-find a alchemist and commission the item. (a few months to a year)

In addition to the points made above (no armor restriction, etc) I also want more variety in the types of magic and the casters for it.


In the base book, the TW is a good example of a contrast against the "normal spell casters" like the Ley Line Walker. But, I want to see magic covering possession, shape changing, spirit summoning and command and the like. Different groups and different areas should have different--and in some cases, radically different--ideas of hom the world works, and this should be reflected in their magic.

Sure, Rifts already has a decent variety, but I would like to see those mages who don't use anything like normal spells,

a skill, with level requirement, that reduces the amount of attacks a spell uses by 1. a spell cannot use less than 1 attack.

initially in rpg's it was a tradeoff. magic-user at higher levels was WAY more potent than its sword wielding companion. to offset this, they could only wear cloth armor to balance the game.
i do not see any such disparity between classes in this game. magic of any level does not appear to be any more powerful than technology, and in many ways it is actually inferior.
an armor restriction in a setting in which the power levels of magic-users do not exceed the power level of technology is pointless.

increase base amounts of P.P.E. or redux the P.P.E. costs of spells
having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Double the amount of PPE all spell casters have. Several people have pointed out correctly, that knowing a high level spell is useless if you cannot cast it due to low PPE.

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Scrap the armor restrictions.

2. There are too many "All or Nothing" spells.
There should be some penalties for targets that successfully make their savings throws, at least in a lot of cases.
For example, Mindshatter is a 11th level spell that costs 130 PPE, AND it takes 3 attacks to cast.
And if the target has a good save bonus (or simply lucks out), nothing at all happens to him.
Either the character is a complete vegetable, or he's completely spiffy.
How about he loses an attack, and maybe suffers some combat penalties if he makes the save?

3. Mages should, as a general rule, need to use both gestures and words in order to cast spells.
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without gestures (perhaps this skill should kick in automatically at high level).
There should be a skill that allows mages to cast without words.
And there should be an explanation as to why, in each case.

4. The interaction between mages and cybernetics should be explored and explained.

5. Magic should not be able to beat tech at its own game.
A magically-created particle beam should NOT be more powerful than the tech version.

6. There need to be rules for disrupting ANY action that takes more than 2 attacks to complete. There should be a set of specific criteria that are met in order for there to be a threat of disrupting the action, and there should be a way for mages to attempt to keep from being disrupted (even if a specific skill is required to be taken).

Agree with 'most everything said here.

But I'd like to add that in addition to the 'more PPE' suggestion posted by another above me, there should also be a MASSIVE boost to the distance that magic can be cast. To my eyes, a lot of/most of/nearly all of the Spells in Rifts are holdovers from PFRPG, that Gaming Module whose best weapons are measured in terms of hundreds of feet, and spells IMO need a serious makeover when compared to the weapons of 24th century Rifts.

Mind you, I don't want Magic to be AN EXACT match for Tech (I like the tradeoffs in Palladium), but the limits of most spells are simply ridiculous.

Failgoat wrote:a skill, with level requirement, that reduces the amount of attacks a spell uses by 1. a spell cannot use less than 1 attack.

initially in rpg's it was a tradeoff. magic-user at higher levels was WAY more potent than its sword wielding companion. to offset this, they could only wear cloth armor to balance the game.
i do not see any such disparity between classes in this game. magic of any level does not appear to be any more powerful than technology, and in many ways it is actually inferior.
an armor restriction in a setting in which the power levels of magic-users do not exceed the power level of technology is pointless.

increase base amounts of P.P.E. or redux the P.P.E. costs of spells
having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Definitely agree with the need to fix the magic item creation set-up, unlike AD&D where all the powerful items are crafted by mages and just about every PC group has at least one if not several mages to potentially crank out magic items Rifts has high-technology that's certainly an equalizer so mages producing magical items aren't so balanced in their favor they're just evening things out instead. As it is your average mage has to make do with technology in some fashion to really survive and prosper rather than functioning solely on their own power and magic. The only class that really produces magic items regularly requires technology in order to do so (or at least for many things). I'd love a straightforward OCC that crafts pure magic items and without the convoluted requirements of the Alchemist OCC from Palladium Fantasy.

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Rather than a new OCC, how about just some new spells?

Nightmask wrote:Definitely agree with the need to fix the magic item creation set-up, unlike AD&D where all the powerful items are crafted by mages and just about every PC group has at least one if not several mages to potentially crank out magic items Rifts has high-technology that's certainly an equalizer so mages producing magical items aren't so balanced in their favor they're just evening things out instead. As it is your average mage has to make do with technology in some fashion to really survive and prosper rather than functioning solely on their own power and magic. The only class that really produces magic items regularly requires technology in order to do so (or at least for many things). I'd love a straightforward OCC that crafts pure magic items and without the convoluted requirements of the Alchemist OCC from Palladium Fantasy.

Bam! That's exactly what I'm talking about. If a Ley Line Walker could make magic items, then they could place spells that they constantly use into items, saving their P.P.E. for those more flexible spell-casting needs. There's no need in RIFTs for such heavy restrictions on the making of pure magic items. If a mage wants to make a ring of teleport three times a day, he should be able to.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Rather than a new OCC, how about just some new spells?

Unfortunately Palladium's apparently holding to the idea of preventing mages creating permanent items without permanent costs in PPE (and PE for at least one spell) so any new spells that came out would likely end up with some kind of permanent cost for creating any kind of permanent magical items. Only a few classes that make a few limited items (like Biomancers or one of the magical OCC from Rifts: England) manage to create any permanent items without spending some of their PPE permanently.

Meanwhile in Nightbane it's apparently possible to make some serious magical items without such problems just with proper research. At least one magical location is a slaughterhouse a group of mages created to store PPE in the kind of levels that a total solar eclipse doesn't make available and it makes that much PPE available daily.

fidgewinkle wrote:

Athos wrote:Double the amount of PPE all spell casters have. Several people have pointed out correctly, that knowing a high level spell is useless if you cannot cast it due to low PPE.

The intent is that high level magic requires a ritual with sacrifices, at a leyline/nexus or both. Still, there are plenty of ways around the problem already in the game if players plan ahead and make PPE talismans and other spell casting talismans using ritual PPE enhancements. Raising character PPE for just this purpose would ruin the charm of the magic system.

There is no "charm" to ruin. The magic system is weak and spell casters are much weaker than their technologically based peers.

Doubling the PPE at leasts gives them a chance.

Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Rather than a new OCC, how about just some new spells?

Unfortunately Palladium's apparently holding to the idea of preventing mages creating permanent items without permanent costs in PPE (and PE for at least one spell) so any new spells that came out would likely end up with some kind of permanent cost for creating any kind of permanent magical items.

Any new OCCs would probably work the same way.

Athos wrote:Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

You seriously think you need all that to cast a couple of spells?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Athos wrote:Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

You seriously think you need all that to cast a couple of spells?

I think he means when it comes to the high level spells, you'd have to be really PPE deficient to need that to cast low-level/low-cost spells.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Rather than a new OCC, how about just some new spells?

Unfortunately Palladium's apparently holding to the idea of preventing mages creating permanent items without permanent costs in PPE (and PE for at least one spell) so any new spells that came out would likely end up with some kind of permanent cost for creating any kind of permanent magical items.

Any new OCCs would probably work the same way.

Sad but true, other than the making of a minor weapon or shield that'd be pretty much the limit of your range of items you might get to craft. Kind of depressing when you see how the game is slanted towards the high-tech end of things. Generally no magic armor can compare to even many of the regular armors let alone the power armors, the weapons for tech-users are far superior on range and damage in general, etc. Even the tech golems (i.e. robots) are superior in intelligence generally and often in everything else other than having the ability to self-repair.

All Mages can make magic items, but most of these items are quest based items. (i.e.: to get the components takes quests.) It is just that they can't Quickly make magic items w/o perm PPE loss.
Even the masters of creating (normal) magic items takes months to make said items. (And are a NPC class.)

As to the total Base PPE, while the starting PPE is okay. The increase of that PPE base should go up faster. (Something like +2d6 x level per level. Or something like +1d6+PE per level.) Or the costs of casting the spells come down as the Mage levels up. (Maybe something like -10% per level above the level of the spell with a min. of 10% base spell cost. e.g.: A 7th level mage would get a 50% discount on the spell cost for a L2 spell, but would pay the base cost for a 7th level or greater spell.)

All mages can make charms, with differing effects, as per the rules in TtGD page 44 & 45. While they have a Perm PPE cost, they are perm charms.

I have a mage with several PPE batteries made from a Energy Sphere variant So the chars has 1000+ usable PPE. While yes it is a 'brute force' method of getting the required PPE for those "neat" spells. It does make the char a bit of a target.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Athos wrote:Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

You seriously think you need all that to cast a couple of spells?

I think he means when it comes to the high level spells, you'd have to be really PPE deficient to need that to cast low-level/low-cost spells.

Sure, but it would help if he'd specify which spells in particular he's talking about- what high-level spells in particular he thinks that mages should be able to snap off at a moment's notice using their own PPE.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Athos wrote:Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

You seriously think you need all that to cast a couple of spells?

I think he means when it comes to the high level spells, you'd have to be really PPE deficient to need that to cast low-level/low-cost spells.

Sure, but it would help if he'd specify which spells in particular he's talking about- what high-level spells in particular he thinks that mages should be able to snap off at a moment's notice using their own PPE.

How about you are a LLW in combat with a glitterboy who is steadily blowing you to shreds, so you whip out an annihilate spell, 600 PPE, thinking you are going to put some whoop butt on the GB. He dodges of course, so you cast it again, and again. Oh, wait, you only have 219 PPE, guess that scenario never happened then, so why even have a combat spell with that much PPE?

You seriously have never played a mage have you? I guess with a name like cyborg, that makes sense...

Mages are truly underpowered compared to tech opponents in a straight up battle. Sure, if they sneak in and kill the sleeping SDC pilot at night they win, but in the real world, they lose against tech. They just don't have the PPE or the damage doing spells they need to stay on the battlefield against a high tech opponent.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

this...

Athos wrote:
How about you are a LLW in combat with a glitterboy who is steadily blowing you to shreds, so you whip out an annihilate spell, 600 PPE, thinking you are going to put some whoop butt on the GB. He dodges of course, so you cast it again, and again. Oh, wait, you only have 219 PPE, guess that scenario never happened then, so why even have a combat spell with that much PPE?

You seriously have never played a mage have you? I guess with a name like cyborg, that makes sense...

Mages are truly underpowered compared to tech opponents in a straight up battle. Sure, if they sneak in and kill the sleeping SDC pilot at night they win, but in the real world, they lose against tech. They just don't have the PPE or the damage doing spells they need to stay on the battlefield against a high tech opponent.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

how about an enchanter O.C.C? yes, we have techno-wizard, and spells any mage can learn and use to enchant items, but an actual class that specializes in enchanting items. and please no "permanently loses 10 P.P.E. in the enchanting process" or lvl 15 or spells of legend required to do the enchanting yadda yadda yadda...
for a world running rampant out of control with magic, rifts earth in terms of game material, governments, world books etc, is so dominated by tech sometimes i want to puke. (really? another world book with the back 100 or so pages full of tech weapons and vehicles? /gag)

Rather than a new OCC, how about just some new spells?

im all for this. iv got an entire notebook full of spell lists from other game systems to fill in the epic scale void of variety that is incantations in this game. i believe its a nono for me to post any of that tho.

that doesnt address the issue though homie. one of the biggest, if not the single biggest, complaint from people i play palladium with is the lack of magic items. we cut our rp teeth on a game that had tables and tables of magic item charts to be doled out in treasure. tw is cool, and unique, but not the same.

fidgewinkle wrote:Carpet of adhesion, get behind him, glitterboy is done, though it might take a while to finish the deed depending upon what is done next.

By the way, any mage who doesn't avail themself of basic technology to fill in for their weaknesses deserves to die. Played right, mages are plenty powerful. They just can't be played with an "I'm going to out blast him" mentality. My two most played characters in RIFTS are a LLW and a Psi-Nullifier, so I don't just want to laugh at the weakling mages. If you don't suck, they are very powerful.

you are totally right. with some creative thinking, a magic user can definitely combat a pa pilot and win without having to cast annihilate over and over. but that is still kind of skirting the issue.

a friend of mine who only plays the 3rd edition of a game system that has for years gone in the wrong direction, recently couldnt stop laughing at me when i told him about this issue with not having enough P.P.E. to cast high level magic without external aid.

"r u serial? you have that spell and youv never casted it? bro...i cast lvl 9 spells like 5 times a day...."

not saying it should be like that, but i really dont know what to say to people who dont understand having spells you cant cast by yourself makes magic users suck cosmic suckiness

Silver Fox wrote:I know explanations are given of Mages refusing to write down spells, so you won't have any spell books or scrolls laying around, but surely there must be someone, somewhere on Rifts Earth who's decided to write stuff down? I was prepared to see a high level of illiteracy in Rifts, but numerous characters will get a literacy to start off with and its easy to pick up later on too if you didn't. Surely there's some sort of Scholarly Mage hiding out somewhere who after seeing TW items has decided to try making more "conventional" magic items like rings... wands, scrolls and so on.

But yeah.... as has been mentioned before Tech is one tool... Magic is another tool. Which and how you use them depends greatly on who's thinking in terms of what they can do. But after the Siege on Tolkeen, I can see cabals of Mages somewhere going alright, we need ways of evening out the field against Tech and they might just might look to start making the items... having something like that Enchanter or an "Artificer" to craft an item. Yes other places like England, Atlantis, Biomancers have ways of making weapons... but perhaps someone looks at TW and maybe has read an old Pre-Rifts Fantasy novel and goes hmmm.... should we make a magic pair of boots or rings for this?

AMEN

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Athos wrote:Of course, you may think it is cute for a mage to have an energy sphere and 47 talismans just so he can cast a couple spells, but I think that is pathetic.

You seriously think you need all that to cast a couple of spells?

I think he means when it comes to the high level spells, you'd have to be really PPE deficient to need that to cast low-level/low-cost spells.

Sure, but it would help if he'd specify which spells in particular he's talking about- what high-level spells in particular he thinks that mages should be able to snap off at a moment's notice using their own PPE.

How about you are a LLW in combat with a glitterboy who is steadily blowing you to shreds, so you whip out an annihilate spell, 600 PPE, thinking you are going to put some whoop butt on the GB.

What about if I'm a Vagabond in combat with a Glitterboy who is steadily blowing me to shreds?
I can't outgun the GB then either.

He dodges of course, so you cast it again, and again. Oh, wait, you only have 219 PPE, guess that scenario never happened then, so why even have a combat spell with that much PPE?

Because there are times when it could come in handy.
Revise your scenario.

This time, you're not a lone LLW; you're in a party of 5 LLWs.
The GB is blowing your party to shreds, so your party hits him with Carpet of Adhesion, then moves behind him where it's not as easy for him to shoot you.
You channel your PPE to one mage, and he casts Annihilate at the GB, who cannot dodge as his feet are stuck to the ground, and he's getting hit from behind.

You seriously have never played a mage have you? I guess with a name like cyborg, that makes sense...

My first Rifts character (circa 1991) was named "Killer Cyborg from Heck," and I took my screen name from him.
He's a shifter.

And he has the brains to not expect to tackle a GB in a head-to-to head battle, and to use other strategies instead.

Mages are a thinking man's character.

Mages are truly underpowered compared to tech opponents in a straight up battle.

Really?
A mage is underpowered compared to a CS Grunt?
How do you figure?

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:having a crapload of high level spells that you cannot cast without external aid is not good.

Why's that?

this...

Athos wrote:
How about you are a LLW in combat with a glitterboy who is steadily blowing you to shreds, so you whip out an annihilate spell, 600 PPE, thinking you are going to put some whoop butt on the GB. He dodges of course, so you cast it again, and again. Oh, wait, you only have 219 PPE, guess that scenario never happened then, so why even have a combat spell with that much PPE?

You seriously have never played a mage have you? I guess with a name like cyborg, that makes sense...

Mages are truly underpowered compared to tech opponents in a straight up battle. Sure, if they sneak in and kill the sleeping SDC pilot at night they win, but in the real world, they lose against tech. They just don't have the PPE or the damage doing spells they need to stay on the battlefield against a high tech opponent.

So it's not good because your lone mage cannot single-handedly, and EASILY, take out perhaps the most fearsome war machine known to man?

You seem to have higher expectations of mages than I do.
Where to these expectations come from?
Is this how you see mages typically portrayed in fantasy literature?

one of the biggest, if not the single biggest, complaint from people i play palladium with is the lack of magic items.

I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

I made a LLW once. i rolled high on the P.P.E. at creation. I made it all the way up to lvl 11 before the game ended.
I had less than 300 P.P.E.
its unacceptable. sorry if you dont "get it"
this complaint is for "thinking posters"

Killer Cyborg wrote:
So it's not good because your lone mage cannot single-handedly, and EASILY, take out perhaps the most fearsome war machine known to man?

Look at you back pedal... Either the LLW or the Shifter is the apex of spellcasting OCCs, depending on your preference, mine is for the LLW. If tech and magic are really that equal, you would think a high level LLW, the best magic class, could easily best a low level glitterboy, one of, if not the best tech warrior class. Best of magic vs. best of tech...

So now I am being unrealistic since you don't think the high level mage can take out the low level gb? Well of course he can't, tech is far superior in Rifts, that is my point.

It's the system that has the problem, not me. Even if you compare a low level juicer to a high level mage, the juicer is dishing out 1d6x10+10 MD per shot and the mage with his trusty firebolt spell, and decent PPE, may, MAY be able to dish out 4 eclips worth of attacks with his PPE, but instead of it beign 1d6x10+10 MD, it is all of 4d6 MD.

Spells are too weak and the PPE cost too high for what a mage has... if mages are going to be able to compete with tech, the magic system needs to be overhauled.

anyone agree that LLW is the "premier" spell caster of Rifts?
anyone agree that GB is the "premier" PA suit of Rifts?

so the GB unleashes hell with all his glam awesomeness, but the LLW has to resort to a combination of low level spells that cleverly defeat his opponent and hope the GB pilot doesnt vaporize him before then? all because his arsenal of high level spells are uncastable or at best, casts one and is depleted of P.P.E.?

i like a lot of what your saying, i prefer thinking players as oppose to "i stand there and attack until he's dead" players, but we're talking a complete unbalance. maybe im way off in left field, but imo the flagship spell caster and flagship PA suit should be relatively balanced. im afraid to hear how wrong you all think i am.

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
So it's not good because your lone mage cannot single-handedly, and EASILY, take out perhaps the most fearsome war machine known to man?

Look at you back pedal... Either the LLW or the Shifter is the apex of spellcasting OCCs, depending on your preference, mine is for the LLW. If tech and magic are really that equal, you would think a high level LLW, the best magic class, could easily best a low level glitterboy, one of, if not the best tech warrior class. Best of magic vs. best of tech...

So now I am being unrealistic since you don't think the high level mage can take out the low level gb? Well of course he can't, tech is far superior in Rifts, that is my point.

It's the system that has the problem, not me. Even if you compare a low level juicer to a high level mage, the juicer is dishing out 1d6x10+10 MD per shot and the mage with his trusty firebolt spell, and decent PPE, may, MAY be able to dish out 4 eclips worth of attacks with his PPE, but instead of it beign 1d6x10+10 MD, it is all of 4d6 MD.

Spells are too weak and the PPE cost too high for what a mage has... if mages are going to be able to compete with tech, the magic system needs to be overhauled.

well the point he is making is that even a low lvl LLW with a clever use of spells could defeat a higher level GB pilot and i agree with him. that is still SO besides the point of having spells that are uncastable without external aid. Call it preference if you want, i say its a problem with the magic system.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Failgoat wrote:anyone agree that LLW is the "premier" spell caster of Rifts?
anyone agree that GB is the "premier" PA suit of Rifts?

so the GB unleashes hell with all his glam awesomeness, but the LLW has to resort to a combination of low level spells that cleverly defeat his opponent and hope the GB pilot doesnt vaporize him before then? all because his arsenal of high level spells are uncastable or at best, casts one and is depleted of P.P.E.?

i like a lot of what your saying, i prefer thinking players as oppose to "i stand there and attack until he's dead" players, but we're talking a complete unbalance. maybe im way off in left field, but imo the flagship spell caster and flagship PA suit should be relatively balanced. im afraid to hear how wrong you all think i am.

I don't see anything wrong with that. At least in the no-PPE requirement days if you could manage to acquire one of those 3-slot spells you could cast it as often as you had castings in a day, making a wizard far more formidable. Sure he couldn't cast a lot of low-level spells and had a limited amount of spells per day but at least when he picked up those high-level spells he could indeed if he had to level Annihilate after Annihilate spell at a suitable target (ancient dragon or desperate struggle against a vampire intelligence). As is currently a LLW walker or other who could cast such spells requires powerful means of compensating for the PPE costs to cast just one let alone several such spells.

The game definitely takes the opposite stance for games like AD&D, technology has the edge with a great variety of powerful armors and weapons and the wizardly classes generally the also-rans. Sure a Steel Rain spell can inflict a lot of damage but a PC is almost never going to get it and the PPE cost means you get one casting unless you've a lot of prep-time or luck going for you to have enough PPE handy to cast it twice (REALLY unlikely you're going to make three castings). Meanwhile the tech sorts can shower an area with MD destruction and have dozens or hundreds of shots available.

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Does seem contrary to the setting that technology is supreme and everywhere rather than magic, with one of the top 5 magical nexus loci in the megaverse under discussion. Magical items should be as common as the technology, at least for enchanted survival items like armor and weapons. If nothing else you'd expect mages to forge these kinds of items as their main focus point, trying to emulate if nothing else power armor and energy weapons and railguns.

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
So it's not good because your lone mage cannot single-handedly, and EASILY, take out perhaps the most fearsome war machine known to man?

Look at you back pedal... Either the LLW or the Shifter is the apex of spellcasting OCCs, depending on your preference, mine is for the LLW. If tech and magic are really that equal, you would think a high level LLW, the best magic class, could easily best a low level glitterboy, one of, if not the best tech warrior class. Best of magic vs. best of tech...

A mage isn't the pinnacle of magic; a dragon or god is.

But we're not talking pinnacles, we're talking equals.
A mage is the equivalent of a soldier, like a Grunt.
If you want the mage to go up against a soldier in a robot vehicle, then you should expect that mage to be armed with the equivalent of a robot vehicle.

So now I am being unrealistic since you don't think the high level mage can take out the low level gb? Well of course he can't, tech is far superior in Rifts, that is my point.

A high level mage can take out a GB.
A low level mage can take out a GB.
But not in a head-to-head brawl, not unless they have a piece of equipment (or combination of equipment) that equals the GB as a piece of equipment.

It's the system that has the problem, not me.

I respectfully disagree.

Even if you compare a low level juicer to a high level mage, the juicer is dishing out 1d6x10+10 MD per shot and the mage with his trusty firebolt spell, and decent PPE, may, MAY be able to dish out 4 eclips worth of attacks with his PPE, but instead of it beign 1d6x10+10 MD, it is all of 4d6 MD.

The mage can dish out just as much damage as the juicer.
Mages aren't barred from using guns.

Spells are too weak and the PPE cost too high for what a mage has... if mages are going to be able to compete with tech, the magic system needs to be overhauled.

Why the hell would a mage compete with tech?
A person should never compete with tools, especially not tools that he can use to good effect.

Nightmask wrote:

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Does seem contrary to the setting that technology is supreme and everywhere rather than magic, with one of the top 5 magical nexus loci in the megaverse under discussion. Magical items should be as common as the technology, at least for enchanted survival items like armor and weapons. If nothing else you'd expect mages to forge these kinds of items as their main focus point, trying to emulate if nothing else power armor and energy weapons and railguns.

ahem...
TW PAs: Arzno...
Tw weapons: pick a book

That said however...
Less TW crap and Runes
and more "normal" magic items.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Does seem contrary to the setting that technology is supreme and everywhere rather than magic, with one of the top 5 magical nexus loci in the megaverse under discussion. Magical items should be as common as the technology, at least for enchanted survival items like armor and weapons. If nothing else you'd expect mages to forge these kinds of items as their main focus point, trying to emulate if nothing else power armor and energy weapons and railguns.

ahem...
TW PAs: Arzno...
Tw weapons: pick a book

That said however...
Less TW crap and Runes
and more "normal" magic items.

this is exactly what i am saying. thanks!

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

dude i dont understand how having high levels of ambient magic would mean anything OTHER than magic items being commonplace. entire cities of magic-using philosophers and new schools opening to teach magic and blah blah blah. maybe an original selling point of rifts earth was that mages arent commonplace, but they are. they are everywhere. even in that run down shabby shell of a town, theres a shifter doing dark things in the cellar. even in that hippy combine where everyone is living off the land and contributing to their wonderful peace, theres a necro bringing their relatives back from the dead not far away. i have no idea if that was a part of the rifts mythos that magic and magic users are not commonplace, i guess i was mislead somewhere cuz the whole damn planet is full of them. but i digress lol...

edit: im up to 40 posts! thanks magic revamp thread!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I was referring to new spells for creating magical items.

Enchant Weapon: Minor is a pretty good spell, and the fact that it's "minor" indicates that there's probably a "major" version of it somewhere in the Megaverse.
That could be written up.
For example.

But I wouldn't want to see to many of them, nor see Rifts Earth filled with magic items.
Once it becomes commonplace, it's no longer really "magical"- it's mundane.

im down with new spells for creating them. i disagree wholeheartedly with not wanting to see too many of them. how strong is magic in this world? ohhhhh yaaaaaaaa.....the strongest anywhere....in teh megaverse.....but no we shouldnt or wouldnt be flooded with magic items
I lolay'd until i pissed my pants

Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

For much the same reason that the number of weapons manufacturers aren't that common yet you can see their products all over the place. The numbers of mages might be relatively low but not so low we shouldn't see any magical items floating around and indeed should see them at least as much as we see TW-items if not moreso since non-TW mages outnumber the TW-mages.

Athos wrote:You seriously have never played a mage have you? I guess with a name like cyborg, that makes sense...

Mages are truly underpowered compared to tech opponents in a straight up battle. Sure, if they sneak in and kill the sleeping SDC pilot at night they win, but in the real world, they lose against tech. They just don't have the PPE or the damage doing spells they need to stay on the battlefield against a high tech opponent.

Weather he has or not I have. (note the name and titles bub)
And you sir are sadly mistaken in your beliefs.
Just because you want to toe to toe it with anything that comes down the pike and cant does not make magic weak.
why are you a mage, a master of learning, trying to go head to head with something that can make you dead in one shot?
Use tactics, and never ever use a bowling ball to swat a fly.
THINK! do not react! That is the Mages motto.

Failgoat wrote:dude i dont understand how having high levels of ambient magic would mean anything OTHER than magic items being commonplace.

Weird.

entire cities of magic-using philosophers and new schools opening to teach magic and blah blah blah.

You can have magic-using philosophers and new schools opening to teach magic without magic items being common.

maybe an original selling point of rifts earth was that mages arent commonplace, but they are.

Source?

@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why does a world having a lot of ambient magical energy mean to you that magic items would be commonplace?
MAGES aren't commonplace in Rifts.
Why would items they make be?

For much the same reason that the number of weapons manufacturers aren't that common yet you can see their products all over the place.

Huge factory complexes and armies of workers?

The numbers of mages might be relatively low but not so low we shouldn't see any magical items floating around and indeed should see them at least as much as we see TW-items if not moreso since non-TW mages outnumber the TW-mages.

I agree that we shouldn't see NO magical items.
And, in fact, we DO see quite a few of them, even excepting TW items.
But not so many as to make them common.
(Not in most places, anyway)

From your remarks here, you seem to be under the impression that all mages should be able to make magic items.
Care to explain where that comes from?

Failgoat wrote:@damien
not having enough P.P.E. and a tard going toe to toe with something that can one shot it, to me, is not directly related. tactics are great. thinking is great.
having a huge amount of non-ritual invocations that i cannot cast by my onesies sucks.

Why?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Failgoat wrote:dude i dont understand how having high levels of ambient magic would mean anything OTHER than magic items being commonplace.

Weird.

entire cities of magic-using philosophers and new schools opening to teach magic and blah blah blah.

You can have magic-using philosophers and new schools opening to teach magic without magic items being common.

maybe an original selling point of rifts earth was that mages arent commonplace, but they are.

Source?

ok i'll reword just for you.
but they have been in my gaming experience

is that better cyborg?
and from what im seeing to your other responses to me, it boils down to a difference of opinion. i think having all that magic around should have a lot of magic items to go along with it. its good that you see it differently. its not wierd at all. but thats ok, i accept that im wierd to you because i think differently