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I was whipping up come generic characters the other day to use as filler as needed (I've always found having a few extra hereos/villains around is handy just in case you need them) and one of the ones I was making was a Mutant Animal. The problem is that the selection of animals in HU...isn't very impressive. So I pulled out my copy of TMNT and figured I would use that. Problem #2 is that I almost immediately noticed that the HU versions are superior, in some cases significantly so, compared to TMNT. The Alligator/Crocodile's bite is superior for the same Bio-E cost, the dogs have more and better attribute bonuses, the Elephant has a higher PS bonus and an additional purchasable ability that increases his PS even more, any creature that gets natural armor gets larger bonuses in HU etc. etc.

I have no idea how to "up" the TMNT versions to put them on scale with their HU counterparts but I'm also not happy with the limited selection of animals that HU gives (and I haven't even checked to see if the same problem is true with the other "Mutant" books). I just don't know where to begin; any advice?

Replace all the animal powers with the super-power equivalent (Advanced Vision becomes Supervision: Advanced Sight ), drop the use of Bio-E altogether and simply consider the mutant animal to possess those enhanced natural powers across the board, have the mutant animal be able to have another power category like Super-Soldier or even Mega-Hero, and use the updated material from After the Bomb for a wider range of animals.

pick up a copy of After the Bomb 2nd edition. not only do you have tons of animals to choose from, there is a greatly expanded Bio-E system in place, which allows for more custimization..as well as quite a few useful animal psionics. there is also a note on using Bio-E to purchase HU type super-powers.

the latest version of Heroes unlimited is closer to the new ATB in terms of power level than the old TMNT, btw.

The fists IRL gaming group firuered out that to make the TMNT you would need like +15 Bio-E.

this topic had already been discussed before at
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73879
Check it, there are some interesting input(and a..cougcough...power table for mutant animals with bio-e value updated for Pu books...coughcough)

I hate Bio-E. That's a strong way to put it, but I hate the Bio-E system.

In my opinion, the major problem with Bio-E is that after you spend the points to get the animal into the shape you want (bipedal, some speech, etc.), you have no Bio-E left for super powers or anything that makes him a hero other than the fact that he's a rabbit who can talk. Not to mention that it can be a confusing system to deal with when creating a character, especially for those players who have either never played HU/TMNT or those players who have never played a mutant animal. Which is why I have done away with the Bio-E system entirely in my campaigns.

If someone in one of my campaigns wants to play a mutant animal, I tell them to just select an animal and configure it how they want to, minus natural weaponry (bite for alligators, claws for bears, etc.) or other natural abilities (flight, breathing underwater, etc.). So if they want a 5 foot tall bipedal elephant with partial speech and partial hands, or if they want a 6 foot tall sparrow with full speech and no hands, or whatever they want, they got it. Don't pay attention to Bio-E - forget that part altogether. They also can forget about rolling mutant characteristics as it is assumed that because they are a mutant animal, their speech/hands/feet/bipedal status are considered to be their mutant characteristics.

At this point, characters roll to determine the number and type of super abilities. Once that's determined, I give my players the option of selecting those super abilities that mimic natural abilities their non-mutated brethren would have (such as flight for birds, claws in some form for cats, etc.). Once that's done, if they have any super abilities left over they can select the ones they want or they can roll randomly. An example of this:

Player A wants to be a mutant animal, and decides that he wants to play as some type of falcon. He selects his size (5' 6"), no speech (but limited understanding of English), full hands but retaining the look of his feet. The player then rolls for super abilities and ends up with 4 minor psionic abilities + 2 minor super powers (I don't know if this is a real option, so let's just assume that it is as I'm pulling numbers out of my butt cheeks). The player decides that he wants to have some of the same natural abilities as he would have as a normal bird, so he takes Flight (Winged) and Claws. Then with the psionic abilities he decides that he wants to be able to communicate with the other players and takes Telepathy. At this point, the character is free to choose whatever other psionics he/she wants. No Bio-E system, and the player gets the character concept he wanted when he started out.

Severus Snape, your arguing against Bio-E is sensed, but you should know that , at least in other books, there had been effort to overcome this defect. In After the Bomb we got introduced on the concept of vestigial traits, to get extra bio-e as well as the option fo giant animals(read bigger=dumber at cheap price). In Splicer Bio-E is quite treated as much as PPE in Nightbane, and work awesomely in order to deal with genetic mutations (I suggest, in case one has problems with low Bio-E values to use the Biotic starting Bio-E values as a base, for HU should work smooth).
but i understand it could be kinda confusing for players not familiar with the large body of rules and books of Palladiums.

There are two ways that I can think of to by-pass the bio-e system staying within the HU system.
1) That the animal was augmented by a mage as a familiar. (TtGD & a rifter)
2) Eugenically augment the animal to sentience. PU2 & HU:GG

Or the decedents of the above who's augmentation breed true.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are two ways that I can think of to by-pass the bio-e system staying within the HU system.
1) That the animal was augmented by a mage as a familiar. (TtGD & a rifter)
2) Eugenically augment the animal to sentience. PU2 & HU:GG

Or the decedents of the above who's augmentation breed true.

Don't forget Splicer, as genetic augmentation there is already in Bio-E
Also...Whats so different from Mutant animals and some animal themed superheroes?
Not much, if you think about it(but it had to be sadi that some of the animal themed superheroes got severe upgrades over the time...see Archangel/Angel...). Still a lot mutant animal powers are oddly slightly lesser than normal superpowers...well except flight, the new from of flight winged are awesome better thant flight winged for superheroes(that increase with level, because? sincerely I can understand wingless, but why wings increase speed per level?).
After the Bomb really make some GOOD overhaul of Mutant Animals. It was one of the best thing of the sadly missed Erick Wujik .. in the book ther eis also mutant human and some alternative bio-e values for powers.
but remaining in HU setting check Mutant underground Page page 25 to 32.
Also check Mutant in Orbit for some additional type of extraordinary mutations page 9 if i recall correctly, and has some mutant insect and mutant insect powers.
Also Transdimensional Turtles has some interesting features, amongst those a psionic powers that is quite the same as the vectors of elfen lied...albeit is limited only to mutant human with hand-none
On Rifter 23 we got updated mutant freaking Dinosaurs, while on Rifter 29 we got Mutant Archnids, Annelids(worms and leeches), Gastropods and Aquatic mutants. With relative powers and vestigial disadvantages (but some people coudl have problem with Rifter material)
On page 165 of Ninja and Superspies (all hail N&S!!) it sate canonically that mutant animals can take a N&S OCC, or learn a N&S martial arts(well they weren't called teenage mutant NINJA turtles for nothing)
By same note in old Rifts conversion book said that Mutant Animals can in theory being experimented upon to be Crazies/Brain Implant augmentation and/or Juicer/Chemical Enhancement. By same logic one can assume that mutant animal can be a normal supersoldier too(just roll forsome supersoldier enhancemnt)
Yes I think is all for now.

TBoC
I was just commenting on how to not have to use bio-e and still be in the PB system. Because the previus poster was talking about hating the bio-e system.

I tend not to make mutant animals cause they are a pain to make because of the bio-e system is down right complicated when making a char.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:TBoC
I was just commenting on how to not have to use bio-e and still be in the PB system. Because the previus poster was talking about hating the bio-e system.

I tend not to make mutant animals cause they are a pain to make because of the bio-e system is down right complicated when making a char.

Ah my mistake, the reply was actually to the general thread than you in particular.
But i tend to disagree , is not more complciated than any character creation in Palladium system. Or at least not that more complicated than choosing spells for any Spellcaster, choosing Talents for a Nightbane, or just taking skils(the most ***boring part of character creation, expecially when come to Secondary Skills..and OCCs don't help as much as one expect them to). But i admit that perhaps there could be some extra bonus for Bio-E for the Cause of Mutation &Realtionship tables, like there exist in AtB, expecially in high powered setting like HU

As far as mutant animals go, I once put together a female mutant fox, who had been trained by a master of martial arts and used a jo stick(not a typo, a jo is a slightly shorter form of a bo) as a weapon. I don't remember where I put the sheet(yes, she was put together using an actual HU character sheet, rather than just built into a text file) for her, but I remember that she was trained in Aikido and Karate(HtH: Expert equivalent, IIRC), and was named Kitsune, to honor the japanese Fox godess. I could probably post the stats.

Anyway, I had a pretty good mental image of her, and I remember using AtB2 to tweak the basic HU system a bit so I could get some more Bio-E to work with. In my mind Bio-E isn't a problem if you just can find a way to either work with it or just ignore it. It's not the best way of doing Mutant Animals, but it does work if you put some effort in it.

I had a character try using an AtB modifier to get more bio-e. I had to rule the one in question illogical. Being a carnivore is not a problem in the modern times...it is a problem when your presumed prey are intelligent creatures but not when you can go to the neighborhood market and buy meat by the pound.

AlanGunhouse wrote:I had a character try using an AtB modifier to get more bio-e. I had to rule the one in question illogical. Being a carnivore is not a problem in the modern times...it is a problem when your presumed prey are intelligent creatures but not when you can go to the neighborhood market and buy meat by the pound.

Afraid I don't see how you rate that illogical. Availability of meat shouldn't have any impact on whether or not they'd have the Carnivore Disadvantage, particularly since lack of food means starvation and death and presumably starving someone's PC to death isn't how a GM wants to be remembered so food should be available for everyone. Given there are humans with dietary restrictions (and some just religiously fanatical about certain food selections) I can't see why someone taking the Carnivore Disadvantage is such a big deal to go and deny it. It's not like the Bio-E from it is going to set the character up with any significant advantage especially if surrounded by mutant humans who can have superior versions of the animal powers the mutant animal can have.

In the After The Bomb RPG segment of thforums, there are literally thousands of created mutant animals using the BIO-E system. Personally, I like it, I just don't think they have done enough with it in general.

Nightmask wrote:

AlanGunhouse wrote:I had a character try using an AtB modifier to get more bio-e. I had to rule the one in question illogical. Being a carnivore is not a problem in the modern times...it is a problem when your presumed prey are intelligent creatures but not when you can go to the neighborhood market and buy meat by the pound.

Afraid I don't see how you rate that illogical. Availability of meat shouldn't have any impact on whether or not they'd have the Carnivore Disadvantage, particularly since lack of food means starvation and death and presumably starving someone's PC to death isn't how a GM wants to be remembered so food should be available for everyone. Given there are humans with dietary restrictions (and some just religiously fanatical about certain food selections) I can't see why someone taking the Carnivore Disadvantage is such a big deal to go and deny it. It's not like the Bio-E from it is going to set the character up with any significant advantage especially if surrounded by mutant humans who can have superior versions of the animal powers the mutant animal can have.

"A limitation that is not limiting is not worth anything." Saying someone is a carnivore is worth nothing unless the food supply is unavailable or difficult to get, if you have to hunt for food and spend hours a day doing so, and may have considerable trouble because the prey may be intelligent, then it counts. You could just as easily starve a normal human to death in most modern settings.

AlanGunhouse wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Afraid I don't see how you rate that illogical. Availability of meat shouldn't have any impact on whether or not they'd have the Carnivore Disadvantage, particularly since lack of food means starvation and death and presumably starving someone's PC to death isn't how a GM wants to be remembered so food should be available for everyone. Given there are humans with dietary restrictions (and some just religiously fanatical about certain food selections) I can't see why someone taking the Carnivore Disadvantage is such a big deal to go and deny it. It's not like the Bio-E from it is going to set the character up with any significant advantage especially if surrounded by mutant humans who can have superior versions of the animal powers the mutant animal can have.

"A limitation that is not limiting is not worth anything." Saying someone is a carnivore is worth nothing unless the food supply is unavailable or difficult to get, if you have to hunt for food and spend hours a day doing so, and may have considerable trouble because the prey may be intelligent, then it counts. You could just as easily starve a normal human to death in most modern settings.

A limitation is still a limitation even if it doesn't come into play often. Superman's still limited by kryptonite and his solar dependency, the mega-hero vulnerable to fire is still vulnerable even though he deals with fire attacks rarely, and a mutant animal carnivore is still limited even if he doesn't come up against that often.

I think we had best agree to disagree on the subject